From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sat Apr 23 05:46:14 2016 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E296B19FD8 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2016 05:46:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-io0-x22f.google.com (mail-io0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39E332000 for ; Sat, 23 Apr 2016 05:46:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-io0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id f89so112116821ioi.0 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:46:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc; bh=CfFgGG1Pyp32Qfkux4JFwDiWy1kMc7t4cUxy0rUGj1Y=; b=Qg82DbhnO2tBXqwcmz7uL8c2F9JPcsbDZsaeRs223N3ybe/XWarLcoTSPc+AqBd35E 3MyGZhv4QI0im3kd7aHjxJ9dDFCVoEhXULpAgxVLgBO3rnhg+afQxJvSulg9eAEvlOTk 0aCVBLmNpPznF9qyQOSJshnT3SjMUmixX9u8V/sMC0ic6+3NWvymq2NEghDhQaH9Ci5F Ql866Iu668oSOUEQ7XTRIu6iu/YIPX2aD4+Q4w0fVCUMu670DTCQHQYrjqAAFW1nbyb4 C9pXLi5+l8heVcheTu//oIDqxcYuiYmjCwd0d9f4ZMytnpGSiCYynpSanYipZuNmi0OO AAXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=CfFgGG1Pyp32Qfkux4JFwDiWy1kMc7t4cUxy0rUGj1Y=; b=D0E/wVw0acc/pxAQ4r0nfivImFORyTZMeMqVxYMLe7Egkl95W6o+vWxfXQxPn+dnoZ 2RT5xyXCl4xT1e0Ab0pgGGP50ooM51MyBWL1NQK0tyPdF4K4VgKonclNCsUsDFqf7KsF yDcxQdYyXZLBdBrLnaaotfKnHfQBX8QstOnPfMdTA1FUwjOk/lqdZm50nn4KocC8N96s LYhAO6hH1F5ATXbBwqLJwlmdQpYBZiR1w3JQcSD1eNYMuUYqEp/Vt21uXfDxGqzMwtSE +uj8h+fadE8cz+x9QeyIsN4HVEPkb7hwxmtzkvbjMpgSZEpuulkLmRJKem1m+GhoYCYc 5GtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOPr4FUqfpNzXy578vkQFyAo9lvXFPZvKP1kRih/VO0UU2yFV2vSTtOvPHF0rCVlvvBBNegVuYFl4ZZq44YRGA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.133.151 with SMTP id p23mr27329592ioi.16.1461390373559; Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.104.197 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:46:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [50.253.99.174] In-Reply-To: References: <76093.1461096570@critter.freebsd.dk> <5716AD65.8070007@shrew.net> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2016 23:46:13 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9qQug_UlTsxcwfnTxchsyRWhl44 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8) From: Warner Losh To: Lyndon Nerenberg Cc: Matthew Grooms , FreeBSD Current Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 05:46:14 -0000 On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:41 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > You guys need to get over that and come back to the table to have a > rational discussion with the vast majority of people who actually USE this > OS. All glory to Juniper and Citrix and everyone else who packages the OS > into their various 'appliances'. I use both of the above at work, and > believe me, for the amount of money they take out of my pocket, they can > hire their own release engineers to deal with this internally without > inflicting this on everyone else. > *THAT* is the tone I was complaining about. This is not at all respectful. How can we have a rational discussion with people talking about "all glory to" this or that? I don't think it is possible. I get the point you are trying to make, but it is being made so poorly that I have to point that out. You don't get people to come to a table by being disrespectful and demanding their presence. I sit at whatever table I choose to sit at. You have to convince me to sit, not demand that I sit. I haven't responded well to that since the 70's, and I'm ill inclined to start now. Yelling and screaming isn't going to do it. Jumping up and down isn't going to do it. Nobody wants to chat with the mob carrying pitch forks and torches. People do want to talk to rational people having rational discussions perhaps with a point of view that differs from their own. You can scream all you want, but I doubt it will get the results you want. > And I really think THAT is the crux of the argument everyone is trying to > make. > > To reiterate: packages are good. In moderation. As with all other > things. But they have to solve the general case, and pkg - both the tool > and the methodology in its current and pending incarnations - does not. > > I, and others, are trying to have a real conversation about this. But the > blowback is incredible. Let alone incredulous. That is understood. Being toxic about it isn't going to help. Being disrespectful is not going to help. Being hyperbolic isn't going to help. It isn't a real conversation until that stuff is gone. So far I've seen no evidence of it being gone. I've met personally with Glen, in person. I had a wonderful chat with him. Based on talking to him, it was clear many of the complaints here were overblown. Are there rough edges? Yes. Are there things we don't know? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No. Over the coming weeks, things will get easier. The rough edges will be sanded off. After talking with him, I have complete confidence in him and others that are working on making this happen. I don't need it to be perfect today, because of this confidence. I personally will be refraining from engaging further. I plan on seeing what gaps there are by adding support to NanoBSD for packages. I'll be busy with that. In talking to Glen and others, we've already identified a few easy gaps to fill. Once they've done that, I'll get going on NanoBSD with the goal to be able to use it to build a bootable system of any architecture from packages with no root privs. I expect to find issues, but I don't expect to find any issue that's intractable. I expect after the issues are resolved, the end product will be better for everybody. Warner