From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 0:50:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FFA314E8C for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:50:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r21.bfm.org [216.127.220.117]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 02:50:39 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000130015721.00a0ba90@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:57:21 -0600 To: Damien Tougas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed In-Reply-To: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:35 29-01-2000 -0700, Damien Tougas wrote: >Why can't someone create a GUI framework that works more like a command >line? -- Small programs/applets that are easy to maintain on their own, >but which can be plugged together by the user at will to accomlish >the task at hand. Hi, Damian, I started this message by saying that the framework was there (talking of Windows) becaue a Windows program can use both a CLI and a GUI. It is certainly possible to use the Unix style command line concatenation under Windows. Then I deleted what I started writing because I realized a Windows program has no easy way of knowing whether it is run from a CLI or the GUI. So, you are right... At any rate, it is still possible to do it, even under Windows. The trick is to put the bulk of the processing into a DLL, then write two programs, one to use with GUI and one with CLI. Of course, that requires extra work. Yeah, Windows sucks, long live FreeBSD! Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 0:54:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.x-treme.gr (mx2.x-treme.gr [212.120.192.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D38115398 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:54:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat12.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.204]) by mx2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with SMTP id KAA13455 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:54:33 +0200 Received: (qmail 10050 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Jan 2000 05:55:07 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 07:55:07 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Will Andrews , John Purser , "'freebsd-chat'" Subject: Re: costs for solaris vs windows Message-ID: <20000130075507.A10032@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <20000129165422.I45988@shadow.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 09:58:50PM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 09:58:50PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > > > I don't care about comparisons between Windows something and some > > commercial Unix. I would only care if they were making valid > > comparisons between SomeOS and FreeBSD. And if they actually > > published details. > > Well, i just think most people won't be that discerning when they read > reports that Windows is cheaper to run than Unix. To most people, > Unix is Unix. It is tough enough explaining that Linux is not Unix, > let alone FreeBSD. Of course, we really *are* unix. ;-) I only recently remember someone on a Greek Linux mailing list supporting that "well, since Linux is Unix is shares the history of Unix, and it's not to be considered as something new". After trying to explain to thim that learning from the history of others does not mean that you actually /have/ the same history with them, what's more you don't just go around claiming that you have /their/ history. This is the kind of folk that I started seeing attracted to linux, and it scares me... but this ain't a Linux list, so who the bloody hell cares. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." [Mark Twain] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 1:21:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3CE15A65 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r21.bfm.org [216.127.220.117]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:20:00 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000130031548.00a47b10@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:15:48 -0600 To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed In-Reply-To: <870avv$gba$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:25 30-01-2000 +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >The command line allows you to *interface* programs, mostly through >pipes, and to use files as data sources and destinations. Yes, >programs need to hammer out all data as flat text streams and >reconvert them into internal representations. Not as sexy as >exchanging persistent objects in binary form, but it works. Actually, they can be binary. For example, gracula sends GIF files to stdout, and can be piped. GIF files are binary. This is at least possible under Unix. Under Windows, not reliably (since Windows distinguishes between text files and binary files and assumes stdin and stdout are text files). Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 5:37:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B065152D1 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 05:37:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk, ID 38942CA0-2D5C, Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:20:48 UTC To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk (do not reply to this address) X-Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:20:48 +0000 Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed Message-ID: <38942CA0.2D5C@funbox.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:20:48 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "naddy" wrote: > Now add a simple > language with basic flow controls and text substitution (sh) and > a dependency evaluator (make). Presto you have a very powerful > toolchest to *automate* tasks. I would include 'expect' in the toolchest; it makes possible some tasks which otherwise would not be worth contemplating. (Or 'expectk', if you want to wrap it all up in a GUI... :-) -- Tim Jackson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ please reply to: t i m . j @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k ======================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 13: 1:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 731B415274; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15933; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:01:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:01:40 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: John Purser Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems In-Reply-To: <000301bf6a95$1b984aa0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, John Purser wrote: > > I sent an e-mail expressing my frustration and pointed out that even MS > doesn't use NT for heavy duty e-mail service. I suggested they look into > FreeBSD as a way of upgrading their technology and reliability. > > If they receive this suggestion from enough people they might start > listening. Especially now. Wednesday when I called in the second tier > support person I spoke to told me that the @home e-mail was down for the > entire US and they didn't know why! If they received multiple e-mails > suggesting FreeBSD as an alternative with helpful contacts at Yahoo, Walnut > Creek, or HotMail then we might get another large commercial user to join > the ranks! > > John Purser > This is very surprising considering most of the people I know who work at @home are heavy UNIX users, but then again, most everyone I know is NOC or networking people. Although I can;t see where it would be even close to inconcievable for @home to look at FreeBSD, they are probably using it at some points already. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 13:58:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from macnexus.org (macnexus.org [207.113.154.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4B314CAF for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:57:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sean@dreamfire.net) Received: from [24.11.227.21] (HELO valiant.dreamfire.net) by macnexus.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.2) with ESMTP id 1062707 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:57:26 -0800 Received: from dreamfire.net (indigo [192.168.10.8]) by valiant.dreamfire.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E32EB2CE for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:57:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3894B3DA.F78A2F2@dreamfire.net> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:57:46 -0800 From: Sean-Paul Rees Organization: The Dreamfire Solutions Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Brooktree 878 Framegrabber (TV) + Fxtv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can't believe it... FreeBSD controls my WinTV (BT878) better than Windows does, much better than Linux. (remote control and the whole bit) Now that I have everything installed to make a workstation on the 4.0-CURRENT machine sitting next to me... I wished I installed it earlier :-) I love FreeBSD. Cheers, Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 16: 6:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oldserver.demon.nl (oldserver.demon.nl [212.238.105.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D91A14FFB for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:06:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.NL) Received: from localhost (marc@localhost) by oldserver.demon.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA02679; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 01:06:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 01:06:36 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Schneiders To: Sean-Paul Rees Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brooktree 878 Framegrabber (TV) + Fxtv In-Reply-To: <3894B3DA.F78A2F2@dreamfire.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Sean-Paul Rees wrote: > I can't believe it... FreeBSD controls my WinTV (BT878) better than > Windows does, much better than Linux. (remote control and the whole bit) > > Now that I have everything installed to make a workstation on the > 4.0-CURRENT machine sitting next to me... I wished I installed it > earlier :-) > I got the cheapest card available: Pinnacle TV with mono sound support (through sound card). I had it in two Windows machines. In both it would hang the machine after some time (between 1 and 3 hours), usually turning the screen into modern art (vertical or horizontal lines). Hard reset necessary. There were no errors, conflicts or anything to be seen or found in the control panel. In my FreeBSD box it is great. No problems at all, except sometimes with grabbing a picture, which is probably related to a shortage of free RAM, as I run (at nice 20) mersenne primers. Stopping one of those (it is an smp box) solves it. > I love FreeBSD. I adore it. > > Cheers, > Sean > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Marc Schneiders marc@gluur.net marc@venster.nl marc@oldserver.demon.nl propro 1:00am up 16 days,49 mins, load average: 2.23 2.14 2.23 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 17:52: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4B614ECE for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:52:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id CAA22956 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 02:52:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA68683 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:53:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed Date: 31 Jan 2000 00:53:47 +0100 Message-ID: <872iub$231v$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> <3.0.6.32.20000130031548.00a47b10@mail85.pair.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Actually, they can be binary. For example, gracula sends GIF files to > stdout, and can be piped. GIF files are binary. This is at least possible > under Unix. Sure is, but you give up a lot of flexibility. Try editing binary files with sed, for instance. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 17:52:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D0614E21 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:52:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id CAA22958 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 02:52:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA70604 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 01:06:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed Date: 31 Jan 2000 01:06:12 +0100 Message-ID: <872jlk$24u3$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <38942CA0.2D5C@funbox.demon.co.uk> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <38942CA0.2D5C@funbox.demon.co.uk>, > I would include 'expect' in the toolchest; In a word, no. expect(1) is a hack to forcibly make programs scriptable that only come with a captive user interface. When (you think) you need expect(1), that's a sign that something is wrong. It's the dressing for the wound after you or somebody else shot you in the foot. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 17:52:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3D615248 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:52:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id CAA22960 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 02:52:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA74819 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 01:17:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: xdm background image? Date: 31 Jan 2000 01:17:09 +0100 Message-ID: <872ka5$291m$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So, what are people using as background image for the xdm login screen? Plain gray (or any other solid color) is kind of boring. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 17:57:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DCC14D4C for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:57:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17282; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:27:30 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <872ka5$291m$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:27:29 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: RE: xdm background image? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 31-Jan-00 Christian Weisgerber wrote: > So, what are people using as background image for the xdm login > screen? Plain gray (or any other solid color) is kind of boring. Try the wdm port.. its neat :) The picture the port comes with, of course, rocks :) (BTW I had hassle getting it to work on my current box.. I nuked and rebuilt libjpeg, libPropList and wdm - YMMV) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 18:28:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE6714D4A for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA31155; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:28:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:28:06 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: xdm background image? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi guys, On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On 31-Jan-00 Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > So, what are people using as background image for the xdm login > > screen? Plain gray (or any other solid color) is kind of boring. > > Try the wdm port.. its neat :) You can do a LOT w/ xdm. I've seen people have a runnable version of xanim in the xdm login. That said I haven't messed about w/ wdm since the last time I tried it (a long time ago) it wouldn't compile, even out of ports! I know it's worked since then, but I haven't mucked w/ it. > The picture the port comes with, of course, rocks :) If you just want that image head over to: http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/ You could also take a splash screen, convert from bmp, and use it instead: http://www.baldwin.cx/splash/ Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 18:47:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB5F14DC3 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:47:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA64023; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:17:11 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:17:10 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Slaves of computers (was: GUIs are flawed) Message-ID: <20000131131710.G62824@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> <870cqi$h68$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <870cqi$h68$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 30 January 2000 at 4:57:06 +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > Sociologists often gibber about computer user's turning into slaves > of the machine rather than the other way around. It doesn't sound > as ridiculous anymore once you see how PC users debase themselves, > and do the most grueling, repetitive, mind-numbing work unfit for > humans. (And of course the sociologists' computer experience is as > PC users.) Many years ago I went to the Hannover trade fair and saw my first-ever colour terminal (see how long ago it was). It was some IBM 3276 derivative, and it displayed a menu saying "If you want to know more about the IBM 327x colour terminal, enter "1" and press Enter". So I went and pressed 2 to see what it would do. The program reacted reasonably (redisplayed the screen), but a droid wandered over to see what trouble I was having. I told him what I was doing, and he said, "Don't do that. Do what the computer says". I don't think your description of these people as "PC users" is completely accurate. I'm a PC user too, and so are you. You're talking about a mentality which pervades the industry. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 20:57:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E2D14CCF for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:57:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18490; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:56:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000130215249.00b91690@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:56:31 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:19 PM 1/28/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > > Alas, it's factually incorrect on several points. In particular, it > > credits Stallman with originating the idea of open source software > > "in 1984." > >Well, no, that's not what it says. To quote: > > The decision by AT&T to commercialize Unix in 1984 prompted the > first attempt to organize the concept of free software ("free" as in > freedom, not free of charge) around a license and a development > project (see Note 2). > >What part of that do you consider incorrect? The date (Stallman started his campaign to destroy commercial software developers before 1984) and also the motivation (it was the spinoff of Symbolics from the MIT AI Lab that started him on his vendetta). Also, AT&T sold commercial licenses for UNIX well before 1984; it started doing so immediately after divestiture. So, just about everything in the paragraph is incorrect. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 21: 3:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124CA14E13 for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:03:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18541; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:02:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000130215650.00b16100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:02:30 -0700 To: Christopher Masto , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000128224826.A27223@netmonger.net> References: <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:48 PM 1/28/2000 , Christopher Masto wrote: >Just ignore him, he hates GNU so much, the mere mention of rms >destroys any chance he has of reacting objectively. Incorrect. I do not "hate" the GNU project or RMS. However, I do believe very strongly that both are unethical and destructive. There is also irrefutable evidence that the GPL was not the product of altruism, as some claim, but of spite on the part of a frustrated academic who resented commercial spinoffs of work done at the MIT AI Lab. The world should understand the GPL, its origins, its motives, and its intended and actual effects. The truth is that RMS is more of a pathetic figure than a hero. And the true nature of the GPL shows as well: it is an attempt to turn open source into a weapon of spite. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 21: 6:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4BC14E3D; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18580; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:06:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000130220321.0409e770@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:06:03 -0700 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000130000622.7DD7314E12@hub.freebsd.org> References: <200001290632.WAA17774@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:06 PM 1/29/2000 , Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > "free as in beer"....if i drink this here beer (its a Bass Pale >Ale by appointment to her Majesty the Queen), then you can not drink >the very same beer. you could buy another and drink that, but its not >the same bottle of beer. Sort of a paraphrase of the old Buddhist saying: You can never drink the same beer twice. ;-) Seriously: the multiple meanings of the word "free" in the GNU rhetoric are intended to confuse. The word "free" is used as what rhetoricians call a "pivot word;" a subtle switch between meanings of the word in the middle of an argument leads to a fallacious conclusion. "Free software" is, as Richard Stallman might say, a "confusing term which it is best to avoid." ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 30 21:19:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3F11544E for ; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:19:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA68993; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:49:13 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:49:13 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Message-ID: <20000131154913.A68925@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000130215249.00b91690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000130215249.00b91690@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 30 January 2000 at 21:56:31 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:19 PM 1/28/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> Alas, it's factually incorrect on several points. In particular, it >>> credits Stallman with originating the idea of open source software >>> "in 1984." >> >> Well, no, that's not what it says. To quote: >> >> The decision by AT&T to commercialize Unix in 1984 prompted the >> first attempt to organize the concept of free software ("free" as in >> freedom, not free of charge) around a license and a development >> project (see Note 2). >> >> What part of that do you consider incorrect? > > The date (Stallman started his campaign to destroy commercial > software developers before 1984) and also the motivation (it was the > spinoff of Symbolics from the MIT AI Lab that started him on his > vendetta). Also, AT&T sold commercial licenses for UNIX well before > 1984; it started doing so immediately after divestiture. So, just > about everything in the paragraph is incorrect. It seems that you are saying "except for one date, everything in the paragraph is correct". Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 1: 2:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99EB14DA6 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 01:02:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r40.bfm.org [216.127.220.136]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 03:01:53 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000131030237.00a0e930@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 03:02:37 -0600 To: Brett Glass From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000130220321.0409e770@localhost> References: <20000130000622.7DD7314E12@hub.freebsd.org> <200001290632.WAA17774@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22:06 30-01-2000 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >Sort of a paraphrase of the old Buddhist saying: You can never drink >the same beer twice. ;-) I never realized Heraclitus was a Buddhist. :) ===> Whiz Kid Technomagic <=== http://www.whizkidtech.net/ The resource center for webmasters and web users Winner of the Starting Point Hot Site award Winner of the Lighthouse Award Home of the Web Magic Award To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 3: 4:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D271501D for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 03:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA75762; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:04:19 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: xdm background image? References: <872ka5$291m$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 31 Jan 2000 12:04:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de's message of "31 Jan 2000 01:17:09 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes: > So, what are people using as background image for the xdm login > screen? Plain gray (or any other solid color) is kind of boring. Why? I hardly ever see the login screen - a few seconds once or twice a month, at most. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 7:18:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sprig.tougas.net (h24-66-217-148.xx.wave.shaw.ca [24.66.217.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CA2214F92 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:18:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtougas@sprig.tougas.net) Received: (from dtougas@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA55615 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:20:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dtougas) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:20:42 -0700 From: Damien Tougas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Solaris for free!? Message-ID: <20000131082042.A55590@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Looks like Sun is going to be giving away Solaris 8 for both commercial and non-commercial use, and they plan on releasing it a couple of weeks before Windows 2000. Woah. Talk about the competition heating up... http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1531871.html?dtn.head http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/cover/sol8.html -- Damien Tougas, P.Eng. Phone: (780)434-5889 Fax: (780)434-5889 E-mail: damien@tougas.net http://www.tougas.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 10:19:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from impatience.valueclick.com (impatience.valueclick.com [216.64.159.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0614414BFC for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ask@valueclick.com) Received: (qmail 6727 invoked by uid 500); 31 Jan 2000 18:19:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 31 Jan 2000 18:19:16 -0000 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:19:16 -0800 (PST) From: Ask Bjoern Hansen To: Matthew Hunt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths In-Reply-To: <20000129211011.B56937@wopr.caltech.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 05:40:00PM -0800, Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote: > > > "The Apache and PERL projects are maintained in large part by full-time > > employees of O'Reilly and Associates." > > > > eh... > > I heard that they hired Larry Wall for that purpose. Dunno about > Apache. No, they didn't. Tim O'Reilly puts it better than I could: From tim@oreilly.com Mon Jan 31 10:17:25 2000 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:35:09 -0800 From: Tim O'Reilly Reply-To: new-httpd@apache.org To: new-httpd@apache.org, larry@wall.org, merlyn@stonehenge.com, brian@collab.net, allen@oreilly.com, dale@oreilly.com Subject: Correction message sent to Gartner Ken Coar brought to my attention the incorrect assertions in a recent Gartner report. Just wanted to let you know that I have sent them the following correction. Hopefully, they'll do something about it. (Randal--you might want to forward this to clpm and p5p; Brian, I've sent it to new-httpd@apache, since it was the discussion there that brought it to my attention. If you want to forward it to other apache lists, feel free.) (I suppose that we could put something up on our site as well.) Here's the message that I sent to Gartner: In your report at http://gartner12.gartnerweb.com/public/static/hotc/hc00085832.html, you make an erroneous statement regarding my company and its relationship to Perl and Apache: "Note 3 OSS and Commercial Support The Apache and PERL projects are maintained in large part by full-time employees of O'Reilly and Associates. Red Hat (as a consequence of its Cygnus acquisition) is the primary maintainer of the GNU C/C++ compiler that is essential to most OSS projects. Finally, even established IT vendors such as IBM are active participants in the OSS community; IBM has ported Apache to the AS/400 platform." While it is true that Larry Wall, the original author of Perl, is on the O'Reilly staff as a kind of "open source fellow", and continues to direct the evolution of Perl from that position, it is completely untrue that "PERL projects are maintained in large part by full-time employees of O'Reilly and Associates." Larry himself does little or no coding any more; the core language of Perl is developed via a mailing list called perl5-porters; it has over a hundred members, from individual consultants, to university staff, to employees of proprietary and open source companies. The coordinator for the upcoming release, Gurusamy Sarathy, works for Vancouver-based Perl company ActiveState, but even Sarathy is coordinating input from a large independent developer team, not doing all the work himself. And even beyond the core language, the robust growth of Perl is happening in new modules, which are submitted to CPAN (the Comprehensive Perl Archive Network) by many hundreds of independent developers. Similarly, while O'Reilly briefly employed Apache co-founder Brian Behlendorf as a kind of "entrepreneur in residence" while he developed the business plan for his new venture, Collab.net (in which O'Reilly remains a major shareholder), the Apache Group itself has no relationship to O'Reilly. Apache development is controlled by the Apache Software Foundation, which coordinates the activities of a group of dozens of core developers, plus several related project teams (see jakarta.apache.org and xml.apache.org). Please correct the misinformation in your report. -- Tim O'Reilly @ O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. 101 Morris Street, Sebastopol, CA 95472 +1 707-829-0515, FAX +1 707-829-0104 tim@oreilly.com, http://www.oreilly.com -- ask bjoern hansen - more than 60M impressions per day, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 10:38:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97AAE14E9C for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:38:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA09929; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:04:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:04:12 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Damien Tougas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Solaris for free!? Message-ID: <20000131110412.Z13027@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000131082042.A55590@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000131082042.A55590@tougas.net>; from damien@tougas.net on Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 08:20:42AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Damien Tougas [000131 07:44] wrote: > Looks like Sun is going to be giving away Solaris 8 for both > commercial and non-commercial use, and they plan on releasing > it a couple of weeks before Windows 2000. Woah. Talk about > the competition heating up... > > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1531871.html?dtn.head > http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/cover/sol8.html What competition? To see the longest it takes to get an OS unto a usable state? -Alfred "where the heck is my compiler" Perlstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 14:40:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9295814EBD for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:40:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27443; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:40:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000131153150.041f1e40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:34:04 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000131154913.A68925@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000130215249.00b91690@localhost> <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> <4.2.2.20000128130927.046ee770@localhost> <20000129134928.D17521@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000130215249.00b91690@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:19 PM 1/30/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >> What part of that do you consider incorrect? > > > > The date (Stallman started his campaign to destroy commercial > > software developers before 1984) and also the motivation (it was the > > spinoff of Symbolics from the MIT AI Lab that started him on his > > vendetta). Also, AT&T sold commercial licenses for UNIX well before > > 1984; it started doing so immediately after divestiture. So, just > > about everything in the paragraph is incorrect. > >It seems that you are saying "except for one date, everything in the >paragraph is correct". In that case, your comprehension of what I wrote is not good. As I said, the paragraph mis-states Stallman's motivation and says that events were concurrent when they were not. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 14:47: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6DF21500E for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:47:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27549; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:45:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000131154259.041e7240@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:45:37 -0700 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000131030237.00a0e930@mail85.pair.com> References: <4.2.2.20000130220321.0409e770@localhost> <20000130000622.7DD7314E12@hub.freebsd.org> <200001290632.WAA17774@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:02 AM 1/31/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >I never realized Heraclitus was a Buddhist. :) Was it Heraclitus who said that one? I thought it had been attributed, variously, to Buddha and also Confucius. In any event, who on the list is at LinuxWorld tonight? Even if I can't drink the same beer twice, I wouldn't mind having a couple, once each. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 15:22:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jezebel.demon.co.uk (jezebel.demon.co.uk [158.152.38.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60A914D5E for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:22:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jezebel.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00874; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:25:53 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <38961A00.B50B9C1@trltech.co.uk> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:25:52 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: xdm background image? References: <872ka5$291m$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > So, what are people using as background image for the xdm login > screen? Plain gray (or any other solid color) is kind of boring. I use the BSD nomads image as my background, but, if you really want to freak people out try the kmatrix.kss screen saver in kdebase. Its a standalone screensaver that can also run -inroot. 'course, if they haven't seen the film... Richard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 31 23:37:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539183D26 for ; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29683; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:40:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000131181207.0402c1e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:40:21 -0700 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000131185734.00a689a0@mail85.pair.com> References: <4.2.2.20000131154259.041e7240@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20000131030237.00a0e930@mail85.pair.com> <4.2.2.20000130220321.0409e770@localhost> <20000130000622.7DD7314E12@hub.freebsd.org> <200001290632.WAA17774@c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:57 PM 1/31/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >From what I learned in High School (which was 35 years ago, so I may not be >remembering it correctly), it was Heraclitus who said you cannot enter the >same river twice because by the time you re-enter, water has flowed, hence >the river has changed. It's part of Buddhist lore, too. Have you read Hesse's "Siddhartha?" He uses this at the climax of the book. I suspect that the name of the TRUE originator is lost forever, and several others have claimed the saying as their own over time. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 0: 5:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C3313D0C for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 00:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA82676 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200002010805.AAA82676@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 6:35:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0AD3DD8 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:35:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA72087; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:35:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:35:25 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000131181207.0402c1e0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:57 PM 1/31/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > >From what I learned in High School (which was 35 years ago, so I may not be > >remembering it correctly), it was Heraclitus who said you cannot enter the > >same river twice because by the time you re-enter, water has flowed, hence > >the river has changed. > > It's part of Buddhist lore, too. Have you read Hesse's "Siddhartha?" He > uses this at the climax of the book. I'm not sure how far I would be willing to use Hesse as an example of Buddhist thought. Anyways, Heraclitus predates Buddha. Heraclitus was born in ca 535 BCE in Ephesos. historically Buddha was thought to have been born in 560 (or 563?) BCE; however, current thought is that he is somewhat younger than that, dating from the fourth century BCE. David -- Upon those that step into the same rivers different and different waters flow.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 11:26:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF263EBA for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:26:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08596; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:26:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000201122420.04130b70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 12:26:19 -0700 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000131181207.0402c1e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:35 AM 2/1/2000 , David Scheidt wrote: >I'm not sure how far I would be willing to use Hesse as an example of >Buddhist thought. Obviously, he's not an exemplary Buddhist, but he WAS trying to write a biography of the Buddha nonetheless. > Anyways, Heraclitus predates Buddha. Indeed he does. What I was saying was that the REAL originator of the saying was probably much older than either. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 17: 3:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A8D3FCA for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01420; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:03:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAreaaPc; Tue Feb 1 18:03:01 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28403; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:02:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002020102.SAA28403@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed To: damien@tougas.net (Damien Tougas) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:02:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> from "Damien Tougas" at Jan 29, 2000 04:35:56 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One of the beauties of Unix, and one the many reasons that it is so > powerful is the power and flexibility that one has in a command > line shell. This is somthing that Microsoft and Apple and KDE and > GNOME will never equal in a GUI interface. It seems that in order to > get any sort of power with a GUI, it gets incredibly bloated. > > Take a look at Windows 2000 and how many millions of lines of code that > they have created just to compete with Unix. I think that KDE and GNOME > are great in some respects, but at the same time, I think that they > are just going to wind up as bloated and buggy as windows if they keep > increasing the complexity of their software. The larger that these > projects become, the more difficult the will be to maintain. FWIW, they are capturing a larger market segment as a result of this philosophy, regardless of whether they are technically right or wrong, in the limit. I also believe that GUIs can be rationally utilized to encapsulate UNIX command line functionality; it's not the fault of the GUI paradigm that most GUI implementations fail the rationality test, it is the fault of their programmers, and of those who rail on about the impossibility of rationality in the first place. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 17:18:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0A13FC6 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:18:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26818; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:17:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAR1aOs0; Tue Feb 1 18:17:41 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28960; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:17:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002020117.SAA28960@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:17:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcrosenberg@earthlink.net (John Rosenberg), grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), joerg@begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel), sms@moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz), pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: from "Jonathon McKitrick" at Jan 28, 2000 02:24:19 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Also, the white paper on BeOS claims that with all the new advances in > hardware, modern OS's have too many layers, which they call 'silt', to > allow them to use the hardware effectively. They argue that only > starting from scratch allows full use of modern technology, including > multimedia advances. How can FreeBSD keep up? We don't have kernel > threading and SMP support is still in the works, and most BSD features > are 'add-ons'. Should this be a concern for the future? Unlike BeOS, FreeBSD is multiuser, and supports the concept of credentials. I was asked to do some work porting some things, including NFS, SMB, NetWare, and filesystem support to BeOS, but it has an intrinsic lack of a security model, which can not be easily overcome. It is not suitable as a server OS. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 17:22:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF353FAB for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02154; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:21:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAl5ayke; Tue Feb 1 18:21:43 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA29089; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:21:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002020121.SAA29089@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Solaris for free!? To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:21:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: damien@tougas.net (Damien Tougas), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000131110412.Z13027@fw.wintelcom.net> from "Alfred Perlstein" at Jan 31, 2000 11:04:12 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > * Damien Tougas [000131 07:44] wrote: > > Looks like Sun is going to be giving away Solaris 8 for both > > commercial and non-commercial use, and they plan on releasing > > it a couple of weeks before Windows 2000. Woah. Talk about > > the competition heating up... > > > > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1531871.html?dtn.head > > http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/cover/sol8.html > > What competition? To see the longest it takes to get an OS unto a > usable state? I suggest a FreeBSD press release that "we are releasing the source for free before Solaris, so as to undercut their thunder in releasing their source before Windows 2000 comes out", or something similar. People who haven't heard of FreeBSD before are likely to print it. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 17:50: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45DC3FCC for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.44.222]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FPA00LIJ52QKB@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:49:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00410; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 19:48:25 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 19:48:25 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed In-reply-to: <200002020102.SAA28403@usr09.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Damien Tougas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >> Take a look at Windows 2000 and how many millions of lines of code that >> they have created just to compete with Unix. I think that KDE and GNOME >> are great in some respects, but at the same time, I think that they >> are just going to wind up as bloated and buggy as windows if they keep >> increasing the complexity of their software. The larger that these >> projects become, the more difficult the will be to maintain. > >FWIW, they are capturing a larger market segment as a result of >this philosophy, regardless of whether they are technically >right or wrong, in the limit. The GUI _is_ capturing the larger segment from what I'm seeing -- even among professionals. Brett isn't far off the mark on that. My questions, though, are: 1. Is there enough interest in the community to create a rational GUI frame work for a default FreeBSD install? 2. Is there enough maturity in the community to agree on a default window manager without the bloody wars? 3. Can anyone put a value on the additional market share we'll get from the effort? 4. If those three can be answered positively, How should we proceed? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 17:50:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE04A4001 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA36209; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:54:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:54:05 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Myths Message-ID: <20000201205405.A36064@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <4.2.2.20000131181207.0402c1e0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000201122420.04130b70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000201122420.04130b70@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 12:26:19PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 12:26:19PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:35 AM 2/1/2000 , David Scheidt wrote: > > >I'm not sure how far I would be willing to use Hesse as an example of > >Buddhist thought. > > Obviously, he's not an exemplary Buddhist, but he WAS trying to write a > biography of the Buddha nonetheless. > > > Anyways, Heraclitus predates Buddha. > > Indeed he does. What I was saying was that the REAL originator of > the saying was probably much older than either. Maybe Bob Dole? That joke is only four years old. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 19:13:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC314027 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03784; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:13:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:13:16 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Excellent Gartner Group report: Debunking Open Source Mythsc In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000131154259.041e7240@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, I might be around tomorrow, just send a page to pagepat@bsdunix.net unfirtunately my new job keeps me extra busy, but Friday night I'm thinking of inviting everyone out to NJ for a small, but fun party. I'll send you info privately -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:02 AM 1/31/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > >I never realized Heraclitus was a Buddhist. :) > > Was it Heraclitus who said that one? I thought it had been > attributed, variously, to Buddha and also Confucius. > > In any event, who on the list is at LinuxWorld tonight? > Even if I can't drink the same beer twice, I wouldn't > mind having a couple, once each. ;-) > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 1 23:52:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sprig.tougas.net (h24-66-217-148.xx.wave.shaw.ca [24.66.217.148]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A113E7D for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dtougas@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA63956; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:53:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dtougas) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:53:49 -0700 From: Damien Tougas To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed Message-ID: <20000202005349.A63885@tougas.net> References: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> <200002020102.SAA28403@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200002020102.SAA28403@usr09.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 01:02:54AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 01:02:54AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I also believe that GUIs can be rationally utilized to encapsulate > UNIX command line functionality; it's not the fault of the GUI > paradigm that most GUI implementations fail the rationality test, > it is the fault of their programmers, and of those who rail on > about the impossibility of rationality in the first place. I have to say that I totally agree with you on that one. A this point, it seems like the designers of GUIs do try to implement some sort of rational scheme, but often it is more at the programming level than it is at the user level. As a user, I really don't care how the applications talk to each other, but what I do care about is how I can make them do what _I_ want. And when I mean "do what I want" I don't mean change the look of the widgets through some sort of theme package, I want to actually use programs together to make my job easier. -- Damien Tougas, P.Eng. Phone: (780)434-5889 Fax: (780)434-5889 E-mail: damien@tougas.net http://www.tougas.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 2 6:51:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D693FF7 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BC5247556; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABEC11D8A; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:53:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 06:53:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Damien Tougas Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed In-Reply-To: <20000202005349.A63885@tougas.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Damien Tougas wrote: :On Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 01:02:54AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: :> I also believe that GUIs can be rationally utilized to encapsulate :> UNIX command line functionality; it's not the fault of the GUI :> paradigm that most GUI implementations fail the rationality test, :> it is the fault of their programmers, and of those who rail on :> about the impossibility of rationality in the first place. :I have to say that I totally agree with you on that one. A this point, :it seems like the designers of GUIs do try to implement some sort of :rational scheme, but often it is more at the programming level than it :is at the user level. As a user, I really don't care how the applications :talk to each other, but what I do care about is how I can make them :do what _I_ want. And when I mean "do what I want" I don't mean :change the look of the widgets through some sort of theme package, :I want to actually use programs together to make my job easier. So basically you want a Lego (TM) style GUI. Programs are obects with their own subset of objects (CLI options) that can be pieced together and then assembled into a greater whole (effectively pipes and redirects). Yes it could be done, and yes it could match CLI functionality and power without being the current mess of obfuscated nested menus. It would still be slower to use, though I personally don't think that would be a huge factor. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 2 7:20:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po6.andrew.cmu.edu (PO6.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.106]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079CA407A for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po6.andrew.cmu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02769; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix11.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix11.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:19:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mms.4.60.Jun.27.1996.03.02.53.sun4.51.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix11.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.54 via MS.5.6.unix11.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_51; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:19:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0sa4gNC00UwD09egM0@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:19:53 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Valentino Crimi To: Terry Lambert , Damien Tougas Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000202005349.A63885@tougas.net> References: <20000129163556.A69961@tougas.net> <200002020102.SAA28403@usr09.primenet.com> <20000202005349.A63885@tougas.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excerpts from FreeBSD-Chat: 2-Feb-100 Re: GUIs are flawed by Damien Tougas@tougas.net > I have to say that I totally agree with you on that one. A this point, > it seems like the designers of GUIs do try to implement some sort of > rational scheme, but often it is more at the programming level than it > is at the user level. As a user, I really don't care how the applications > talk to each other, but what I do care about is how I can make them > do what _I_ want. And when I mean "do what I want" I don't mean > change the look of the widgets through some sort of theme package, > I want to actually use programs together to make my job easier. I've seen some methods time and time again of implementing the spirit of this (ARexx on the Amiga - now that was cool 8), Scheme most recently in GNOME apps), but they all fall back to making programs scriptable. While this is a good thing for third party programmers, it doesn't help the GUI. While IPC scripting languages are a very good thing they can't enhannce the standard user's experience unless they happen to find a particularly useful script on a web page - or users begin to turn into script writers. It comes down to making apps another object for programmers to directly control. It's not in my vision, though, particularly as someone who would be thrilled just to have the scripting language, what can be done on the user level to export a comperable, if not automated, degree of control. My view would be to make a decent and simple GUI, and excourage users to extend their environment as they wish. It is the only way to let someone do what they want. (Save programming for EVERY possibility, M$ style - nice, but there's always a template missing.). Honestly, good documentation and interfaces are the best. Most people coming out of HS today have at least written a small program and could write a small script if they really wanted to. Obscuring the fact to making it a tedious search, particularly for someone who doesn't know what to look for, will prevent a large number of people from doing it. Back in 92 or so when I bought a word processor for the Amiga (Final Copy), it came with a ARexx scripting interface and 20 or so sample scripts. For example: enabling a hotkey to make an entire sentence bold. The ability to bind programs to hotkeys was an option on the menu, as well as being able to start up arbitrary scripts. Any casual user would see this option and if inquisitive enough look it up in the manual and find all the exported function calls and a tutorial. Not to mention, once someone picked up REXX (a manual for whcih came with the OS) they could control many such apps and need only to learn the function calls of each. Now, many commercial apps do carry this scripting feature. VisualBasic is the REXX of Windows. But having nearly every vendor actively encourage extending their programs for my particular niche needs is probably what made migration to unix far more familiar than to any other platform. I don't particularly have a copy of Word, but I know it has a scripting interface. Would I know how to write such a VB script with the documentation that came out of the box? (This is a real question, I don't know :) If so, I'd have to applaud MS on that one fact. - Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 2 7:21: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sprig.tougas.net (h24-66-217-148.xx.wave.shaw.ca [24.66.217.148]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44932407A for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dtougas@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA65329; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:22:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dtougas) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:22:52 -0700 From: Damien Tougas To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUIs are flawed Message-ID: <20000202082252.A65217@tougas.net> References: <20000202005349.A63885@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 06:53:37AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 02, 2000 at 06:53:37AM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > So basically you want a Lego (TM) style GUI. Programs are obects with > their own subset of objects (CLI options) that can be pieced together and > then assembled into a greater whole (effectively pipes and redirects). > Yes it could be done, and yes it could match CLI functionality and power > without being the current mess of obfuscated nested menus. It would still > be slower to use, though I personally don't think that would be a huge > factor. Thats exactly what I was thinking. It wouldn't have to be slower to use, you could set up pre-defined Lego (TM) templates or containers that would work for most users basic tasks, and allow users to define their own templates and save them for future use. Somthing like this has a lot of features that would also be of benefit to an open source community. The programs would essentially be broken down into small managable chunks making it easy for improvement and maintenance, and also allow the user to be able to have finer grained control over their work environment. -- Damien Tougas, P.Eng. Phone: (780)434-5889 Fax: (780)434-5889 E-mail: damien@tougas.net http://www.tougas.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 2 12:46:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nu.binary.net (nu.binary.net [12.13.120.25]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD10412F for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:46:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from matrix.binary.net (root@matrix.binary.net [12.13.120.2]) by nu.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA18088; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:45:55 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by matrix.binary.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA85105; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:45:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 15:45:48 -0500 From: Nathan Dorfman To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Sameh Ghane , John Rosenberg , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8 Message-ID: <20000202154548.A84018@rtfm.net> References: <20000128153729.A64438@noc.fr.clara.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 10:06:57PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 10:06:57PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Sameh Ghane wrote: > Well, since right now i just run FreeBSD on a laptop as a workstation > for day-to-day tasks and programming, i want it to be more than just a > server. I wish they hadn't dropped their old slogan or goal of "turning PCs into > workstations". And that means that i *do* care about at least basic > multimedia and graphics use. > > > > >FreeBSD is even flexible enough to give me good workstations also, I don't > >feel this like a problem not being able to replace windows workstations. Until my only VGA monitor died a few months ago, I used my FreeBSD machine as a desktop. I didn't find it to lack anything I'd expect of a "multimedia" desktop environment. Audio? Plenty of players: mpg123 with or without the variety of X11 and curses interfaces to it [1]; x11amp; RealPlayer G2. Video? xanim, I also recall Mtv working. Games? Aside from the cool little things in ports/games (xkobo, xevil, heh) I have heard of people playing Quake [123], Civilization: Call to Power, and other commercial games under Linux emulation. Graphics? There's more graphics applications, utilities and libraries than I could even begin to name [2]. As an aside: since the FreeBSD-current box has no monitor, I'm using an ss5/85 running RedSplat as my desktop at home right now. My official report is that I can't f*cking stand it; the environment, configuration, and general design of the system strikes me as non-intuitive and irritates me to no end. I will be much happier when I save up the cash for that new K7 box and go back to FreeBSD. [1] Speaking of which, has anyone used gmp3? Comments? Other recommendations? [2] $ uname -sr FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE $ ls /usr/ports/graphics | wc -l 169 (subtract a few for Makefile, README.html, CVS and such of course). > >-- > >Sameh Ghane > > > > -=> jm <=- > > "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." -- Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching train." --/usr/games/fortune To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 3:38:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1CA6E4337 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 03:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25799 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2000 11:38:11 -0000 Received: from erstumper.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.7) by queasy.outpost.co.nz with SMTP; 3 Feb 2000 11:38:11 -0000 Message-ID: <389A936B.FC844D6A@outpost.co.nz> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:52:59 -0800 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailing list search engine at www.freebsd.org down for repair. References: <49472.949569539@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > A situation almost exactly like this (disk hardware failure) > occurred with freefall during FreeBSDCon '99, incidently, and with > this second incident we've certainly gotten the message: I think you've misread the message; clearly it's: key FreeBSD personnel will not be allowed to attend conventions. Obviously the FreeBSD server hardware is extremely jealous of the core team's affections and will take drastic action (cunningly disguised as innocent and random hardware failure) to ensure they are not distracted by the fun and carefree times available at an industry convention. To show that this is even more likely to occur when the trade show involved is a *Linux* event is left as an exercise for the reader. -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 3:45:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from email.alpcom.it (email.alpcom.it [193.42.134.240]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CE14395 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 03:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from monviso.alpcom.it by ALPCOM.IT (PMDF V5.1-9 #23639) with SMTP id <01JLGZD1KQ6800CWSS@ALPCOM.IT> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:49:08 MET Received: by monviso.alpcom.it (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org id MAA09150; Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:45:16 +0100 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:45:16 +0100 From: Lorenzo Cavassa Subject: NordU2000/Usenix Conference To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20000203124516.C8838@monviso.alpcom.it> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-editor: VIM 5 - http://www.vim.org X-PGP-key-fingerprint: 203C 79AE 2A7A 6147 D4A8 8BEE D26A 06EB X-PGP-keyID: 0x833FB7FD -- key available on keyservers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, next week i will be at the NordU2000/Usenix Conference held in Malmo, Sweden. Somebody else? ciao Lorenzo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 7:12: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF043EED for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:07:47 -0500 Message-ID: <38999B71.C1A4B35B@cstone.net> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:14:57 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: strace Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quick, not-overly-important question, so I figured I'd drop it here... Someone asked me to run strace on a program that they wrote. Now, I'm running a FreeBSD box, and strace doesn't support BSD. Anyone know of a similar program I could use? Thanks, SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 "This is a world where a geomantically-trained ninja interior decorator can wreak havoc." - Feng Shui [paraphrased] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 8: 8: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14DDD40D6; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12GOna-0003dO-00; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:08:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14218; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:08:01 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:08:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Jason Evans Cc: John Purser , chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems In-Reply-To: <20000129143315.C73462@sturm.canonware.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Jason Evans wrote: >On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:12:02PM -0800, John Purser wrote: >I worked at Critical Path (CP), an email outsourcer, for over a year. >During that year, there were a quite a number of service outages. CP runs >its services on a combination of Solaris and FreeBSD boxes. That CP >doesn't use NT is a definite plus, but it couldn't begin to make up for the >real problem: business goals do not emphasize reliability. If reliability >were a goal, I expect CP could do about as well using NT as FreeBSD (though >not for the same cost). @home may be different, but I doubt it. Why do you say that? That if reliability were a goal, the compnay could do as well with NT as with BSD? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 8:22:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AAE54004 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2012C1A01; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:22:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:22:19 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strace Message-ID: <20000203112219.A464@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <38999B71.C1A4B35B@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38999B71.C1A4B35B@cstone.net>; from highway@cstone.net on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:14:57AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:14:57AM -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > Someone asked me to run strace on a program that they wrote. Now, I'm > running a FreeBSD box, and strace doesn't support BSD. Anyone know of a > similar program I could use? What IS strace? If it's a library, it can be ported. If it's a program, it can be ported. If it's a file(1) extension, it can be ported. If it's a kernel module, it can be ported. If it's a driver, it can be ported. Theoretically speaking, of course. I'd be glad to port it if it's one of the first two above. ;-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 8:25: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA9240AF for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:25:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:20:41 -0500 Message-ID: <3899AC87.618448A4@cstone.net> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:27:51 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Andrews Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strace References: <38999B71.C1A4B35B@cstone.net> <20000203112219.A464@argon.blackdawn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:14:57AM -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > > Someone asked me to run strace on a program that they wrote. Now, I'm > > running a FreeBSD box, and strace doesn't support BSD. Anyone know of a > > similar program I could use? > > What IS strace? If it's a library, it can be ported. If it's a program, it > can be ported. If it's a file(1) extension, it can be ported. If it's a > kernel module, it can be ported. If it's a driver, it can be ported. > > Theoretically speaking, of course. I'd be glad to port it if it's one of > the first two above. ;-) Well, according to the web page: Strace is a system call trace, i.e. a debugging tool which prints out a trace of all the system calls made by a another process/program. The program to be traced need not be recompiled for this, so you can use it on binaries for which you don't have source. System calls and signals are events that happen at the user/kernel interface. A close examination of this boundary is very useful for bug isolation, sanity checking and attempting to capture race conditions. The web page is at: http://www.wi.leidenuniv.nl/~wichert/strace/ SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 "This is a world where a geomantically-trained ninja interior decorator can wreak havoc." - Feng Shui [paraphrased] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 8:26:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from h132-197-97-45.gte.com (h132-197-97-45.gte.com [132.197.97.45]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B133F82 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ak03@localhost) by h132-197-97-45.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00592; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:26:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ak03) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000203112219.A464@argon.blackdawn.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:26:33 -0500 (EST) Organization: GTE Laboratories Inc. From: "Alexander N. Kabaev" To: Will Andrews Subject: Re: strace Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Sean Michael Whipkey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD has ktrace/kdump and truss which should to what you want. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 8:27:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02853D38 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19655; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:26:28 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id RAA10745; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:25:47 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strace References: <38999B71.C1A4B35B@cstone.net> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Sean Michael Whipkey's message of "Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:14:57 -0500" Date: 03 Feb 2000 17:25:47 +0100 Message-ID: <0vwvom1cdw.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Michael Whipkey writes: > Someone asked me to run strace on a program that they wrote. Now, I'm > running a FreeBSD box, and strace doesn't support BSD. Anyone know of a > similar program I could use? ktrace To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 8:29: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D335E3E58; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:28:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000203162856.IMIC26912.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A>; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:28:56 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'Jonathon McKitrick'" , "'Jason Evans'" Cc: , Subject: RE: @home.com's e-mail problems Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:28:48 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf6e63$bfdfdc00$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All I know is they can't keep an e-mail server up for one week straight to save their souls! And when I call in and listen to the areas having trouble I learn that they are NORMALLY having trouble with 5 to 10 states and recently the support tech told me that AT&T e-mail was down for the entire United States. It took four days get service up and running normally again after that. This Wednesday it died twice which is notable because it was one of the few occasions where they restored the service in the same day it went down! I think this is an advocacy opportunity because they definitely need to do SOMETHING different so I'm pushing FreeBSD both by name and by suggesting that @home contact Hotmail and Yahoo to see how they deal with the issue of reliably delivering services over the internet. Of course, if this talk about AT&T merging with MS has any substance behind it then all the suggestions and system failures in the world won't help. John Purser -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jonathon McKitrick Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 8:08 AM To: Jason Evans Cc: John Purser; chat@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Jason Evans wrote: >On Sat, Jan 29, 2000 at 12:12:02PM -0800, John Purser wrote: >I worked at Critical Path (CP), an email outsourcer, for over a year. >During that year, there were a quite a number of service outages. CP runs >its services on a combination of Solaris and FreeBSD boxes. That CP >doesn't use NT is a definite plus, but it couldn't begin to make up for the >real problem: business goals do not emphasize reliability. If reliability >were a goal, I expect CP could do about as well using NT as FreeBSD (though >not for the same cost). @home may be different, but I doubt it. Why do you say that? That if reliability were a goal, the compnay could do as well with NT as with BSD? -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 9: 6:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583D4412E for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17386; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:06:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:06:22 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Roland Jesse Cc: Sean Michael Whipkey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strace In-Reply-To: <0vwvom1cdw.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think truss is nice for this sort of thing. strace is a linux thing. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On 3 Feb 2000, Roland Jesse wrote: > Sean Michael Whipkey writes: > > > Someone asked me to run strace on a program that they wrote. Now, I'm > > running a FreeBSD box, and strace doesn't support BSD. Anyone know of a > > similar program I could use? > > ktrace > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 9:20:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211C83FCF for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5A1DA1A07; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:20:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:20:53 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: Will Andrews , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strace Message-ID: <20000203122053.A408@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <38999B71.C1A4B35B@cstone.net> <20000203112219.A464@argon.blackdawn.com> <3899AC87.618448A4@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3899AC87.618448A4@cstone.net>; from highway@cstone.net on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 11:27:51AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 11:27:51AM -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > Well, according to the web page: > Strace is a system call trace, i.e. a debugging tool which prints out a > trace of all the system calls made by a another process/program. The > program to be traced need not be recompiled for this, so you can use it > on binaries for which you don't have source. > > System calls and signals are events that happen at the user/kernel > interface. A close examination of this boundary is very useful for bug > isolation, sanity checking and attempting to capture race conditions. As other people have mentioned, this utility sounds like what ktrace/kdump do. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 9:56: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B04C3DF1; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01636; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:53:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Cc: "'Jonathon McKitrick'" , "'Jason Evans'" , , Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems References: <000001bf6e63$bfdfdc00$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Feb 2000 18:53:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: "John Purser"'s message of "Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:28:48 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "John Purser" writes: > Of course, if this talk about AT&T merging with MS has any substance behind > it then all the suggestions and system failures in the world won't help. Wait a minute - you mean that the big bad-ass technology company that got hit by an anti-trust suit in the eighties and the big bad-ass technology company that got hit by an anti-trust suit in the nineties are planning a merger? I mean, like, do they *enjoy* being the target of anti-trust lawsuits? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 10: 0:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC4A3E2E; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000203180034.KDXQ26912.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A>; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:00:34 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'Dag-Erling Smorgrav'" Cc: "'Jonathon McKitrick'" , "'Jason Evans'" , , Subject: RE: @home.com's e-mail problems Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:00:24 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bf6e70$8c2523e0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I heard one of those "Rumors are circulating that..." type news stories this morning I think. I filed it away and resolved to keep an eye on it but not get too upset until something definite popped up. John Purser -----Original Message----- From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav [mailto:des@flood.ping.uio.no] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 9:53 AM To: johnmpurser@home.com Cc: 'Jonathon McKitrick'; 'Jason Evans'; chat@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems "John Purser" writes: > Of course, if this talk about AT&T merging with MS has any substance behind > it then all the suggestions and system failures in the world won't help. Wait a minute - you mean that the big bad-ass technology company that got hit by an anti-trust suit in the eighties and the big bad-ass technology company that got hit by an anti-trust suit in the nineties are planning a merger? I mean, like, do they *enjoy* being the target of anti-trust lawsuits? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 10:20:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643FE3F58; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12GQoD-000FcT-00; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:16:49 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14878; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:16:48 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:16:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Purser Cc: "'Dag-Erling Smorgrav'" , "'Jason Evans'" , chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: @home.com's e-mail problems In-Reply-To: <000201bf6e70$8c2523e0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check out www.theregister.co.uk I saw it somewhere on that page this morning (M$ and AT&T merger) -=> jm <=- "Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 12:41:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43C9403A for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:33:22 -0500 Message-ID: <3899E7C2.25640EFA@cstone.net> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:40:34 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strace References: <38999B71.C1A4B35B@cstone.net> <20000203112219.A464@argon.blackdawn.com> <3899AC87.618448A4@cstone.net> <20000203122053.A408@argon.blackdawn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews wrote: > As other people have mentioned, this utility sounds like what ktrace/kdump do. Right-o! Thanks for all your help, guys. I ended up using truss... SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 "If you are going to say IMHO, you could at least -pretend- to be humble." - Donald Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 16: 6:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B412F4C0F; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA26573; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:52:36 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:52:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: Will Andrews , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: strace Message-ID: <20000204085236.F26290@freebie.lemis.com> References: <38999B71.C1A4B35B@cstone.net> <20000203112219.A464@argon.blackdawn.com> <3899AC87.618448A4@cstone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <3899AC87.618448A4@cstone.net> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -questions] On Thursday, 3 February 2000 at 11:27:51 -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > Will Andrews wrote: >> >> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:14:57AM -0500, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: >>> Someone asked me to run strace on a program that they wrote. Now, I'm >>> running a FreeBSD box, and strace doesn't support BSD. Anyone know of a >>> similar program I could use? >> >> What IS strace? If it's a library, it can be ported. If it's a program, it >> can be ported. If it's a file(1) extension, it can be ported. If it's a >> kernel module, it can be ported. If it's a driver, it can be ported. >> >> Theoretically speaking, of course. I'd be glad to port it if it's one of >> the first two above. ;-) > > Well, according to the web page: > Strace is a system call trace, i.e. a debugging tool which prints out a > trace of all the system calls made by a another process/program. The > program to be traced need not be recompiled for this, so you can use it > on binaries for which you don't have source. That sounds like ktrace. However, in System V there's another strace: strace(1M) strace(1M) NAME strace - print STREAMS trace messages SYNOPSIS strace [ mid sid level ] ... DESCRIPTION strace without arguments writes all STREAMS event trace messages from all drivers and modules to its standard out- put. If this is what you're talking about, it can't work, because we don't do STREAMS. Greg -- When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 16:27:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638D14B89 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:19:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA26477; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:49:28 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:49:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: UNIX Heritage Society , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Why upper case configuration file names in BSD? Message-ID: <20000204084928.E26290@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 16:28:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.sw.oz.au (smtp.sw.oz.au [203.31.96.1]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788A54F28 for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from peterc@localhost) by smtp.sw.oz.au (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id JAA19456; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:37:42 +1100 (EST) From: Peter Chubb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14490.822.632534.491258@swag.sw.oz.au> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:37:42 +1100 (EST) To: Greg Lehey Cc: UNIX Heritage Society , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why upper case configuration file names in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20000204084928.E26290@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000204084928.E26290@freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 21.1 "Gimme a 6 and 5!" XEmacs Lucid (patch 2) Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v04.023. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "Greg" == Greg Lehey writes: Greg> I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD Greg> kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper Greg> case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be? The same reason that Makefile has an upper-case first letter -- so it appears early in an ls listing, rather than in the middle of a big long list. Peter C To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 16:28:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from begemot.org (negara.cs.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.248.112]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928D5519E for ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by begemot.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA26860; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:00:00 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from joerg) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:00:00 +1300 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" To: Greg Lehey Cc: UNIX Heritage Society , FreeBSD Chat , joerg@begemot.org Subject: Re: Why upper case configuration file names in BSD? Message-ID: <20000204120000.A26832@begemot.org> References: <20000204084928.E26290@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <20000204084928.E26290@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 08:49:28AM +1030 Organization: Begemot Computer Associates Operating-System: ... powered by FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 08:49:28AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD > kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper > case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be? I have no knowlegde, but a guess. Berkeley must have had different machines with different hardware configurations. Conditional compilation is done with a dependency flag. GENERIC defines -DGENERIC. A MICROVAX file would imply -DMICROVAX. It may be for this reason only, conventions. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148 40 Masters Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148 Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 17: 4:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351FD3D77; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:04:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08917; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:04:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAJoaawr; Thu Feb 3 18:04:38 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00335; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:04:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002040104.SAA00335@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems To: johnmpurser@home.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 01:04:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ('Jonathon McKitrick'), jasone@canonware.com ('Jason Evans'), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001bf6e63$bfdfdc00$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> from "John Purser" at Feb 03, 2000 08:28:48 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > All I know is they can't keep an e-mail server up for one week straight to > save their souls! And when I call in and listen to the areas having trouble > I learn that they are NORMALLY having trouble with 5 to 10 states and > recently the support tech told me that AT&T e-mail was down for the entire > United States. It took four days get service up and running normally again > after that. AT&T Global Net, or AT&T @Home? I know that AT&T Global Net runs on i.Mail servers from Software.COM. Jon Postel was on the board of directors; these guys are not slackers when it comes to email. If they are having problems, then the problems are operational, not software. I also know from personal experience that we (IBM iwebconn.com) have not had a service outage not related to network connectivity, period (we had one outage related to network connectivity, and it was quickly corrected, with no users complaining about lost service; in other words, it's possible to know precisely when something like this happens, and fix it immediately. It was a network sevice provider outage, btw: not on our end, and we have since put in place plans to avoid this in the future). On the minus side, we are running on AIX, on software ported from FreeBSD, rather than on a FreeBSD developement environment, since we wanted to delegate the responsibility for maintaining the systems to someone else, and only deal with the applications. The point is, it's possible to provide reliable service; it's just a matter of will. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 3 19:27:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B293D60; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id TAA18583; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:22:18 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id TAA09922; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:22:17 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn5.utah.xylan.com [198.206.184.241]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id TAA12905; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:22:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <389A4735.E13DCE37@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 20:27:49 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: John Purser , "'Dag-Erling Smorgrav'" , "'Jason Evans'" , chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Check out www.theregister.co.uk > > I saw it somewhere on that page this morning (M$ and AT&T merger) Naw, it was just a bunch of wheeling and dealing about wireless access to MSN. BFD. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 4:35:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7143EF9; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 04:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000204123550.ESOV17514.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A>; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 04:35:50 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: "'Terry Lambert'" Cc: "'Jonathon McKitrick'" , "'Jason Evans'" , , Subject: RE: @home.com's e-mail problems Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 04:35:36 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf6f0c$575bfc00$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200002040104.SAA00335@usr06.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm having trouble with the AT&T @home service. A friend of mine uses their Global Net and he hasn't complained about any problems at all. John Purser -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Terry Lambert Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 5:05 PM To: johnmpurser@home.com Cc: 'Jonathon McKitrick'; 'Jason Evans'; chat@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems > All I know is they can't keep an e-mail server up for one week straight to > save their souls! And when I call in and listen to the areas having trouble > I learn that they are NORMALLY having trouble with 5 to 10 states and > recently the support tech told me that AT&T e-mail was down for the entire > United States. It took four days get service up and running normally again > after that. AT&T Global Net, or AT&T @Home? I know that AT&T Global Net runs on i.Mail servers from Software.COM. Jon Postel was on the board of directors; these guys are not slackers when it comes to email. If they are having problems, then the problems are operational, not software. I also know from personal experience that we (IBM iwebconn.com) have not had a service outage not related to network connectivity, period (we had one outage related to network connectivity, and it was quickly corrected, with no users complaining about lost service; in other words, it's possible to know precisely when something like this happens, and fix it immediately. It was a network sevice provider outage, btw: not on our end, and we have since put in place plans to avoid this in the future). On the minus side, we are running on AIX, on software ported from FreeBSD, rather than on a FreeBSD developement environment, since we wanted to delegate the responsibility for maintaining the systems to someone else, and only deal with the applications. The point is, it's possible to provide reliable service; it's just a matter of will. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 5:18:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E3A40A8 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 05:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 675307562; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 05:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8E61D8E; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 05:21:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 05:21:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Greg Lehey Cc: UNIX Heritage Society , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why upper case configuration file names in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20000204084928.E26290@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Greg Lehey wrote: :I've just been asked a rather unusual question: when you build a BSD :kernel, the name of the configuration file is traditionally upper :case. Does anybody have insight as to why this should be? I've always done mine lowercase. I wasn't aware I was violating any sort of tradition. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 11:23:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc09.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc09.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.18]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECF03444F for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from atlanta ([12.78.201.132]) by mtiwmhc09.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <20000204165505.GFDF7433@atlanta>; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:55:05 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000204115312.033db320@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:55:35 -0500 To: Brian Anderson From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Boston MA area user group? Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd be interested in putting something together if there's sufficient interest. In fact, I'm CC'ing this message to chat to see if there's anyone else in southeastern New England who might be interested. --Chip Morton At 07:25 PM 2/3/00 , Brian Anderson wrote: >Hello, > >I just looked at the User Groups section of the freebsd.org web site, and >found no mention of a Boston area users group. > >Is there one? If not, would anyone be interested in forming one? > > > >Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 11:33:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61EC0453B for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA49328; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:20:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:20:08 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: Choice of display cards under freebsd. In-Reply-To: <200002041234.WAA43156@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat, since this isn't really appropriate for -hardware anymore. On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Thursday, 3rd February 2000, Chris Dillon wrote: > > >My point was more that the 3DFX cards can't even do what their peers > >can, which is 32-bit color-depth and Z-buffering. > > We're pretty close to agreement on most things. Even this. > > But my point is that these other features aren't always useful. To my > mind, the only real failing of current 3dfx cards is the limited maximum > texture size. I forgot that one. :-) This can be a significant quality issue if the games you're using take advantage of large textures. Text on signs and other stuff can be downright unreadable without large-texture support in your hardware, but luckily the game designers are usually smart enough not to stick important clues where hardware issues might conceal them. :-) > AGP is a crock, hardware transform and lighting is ahead of its > proper time (ie it's all hype without sufficient fill rate), and > 32 bit colour ain't useful. Maybe 32 bit Z-buffering is useful, > but I don't see the clipping problems you see *except* when a 32 > bit card does pretty much the same thing (thinking Unreal and Half > Life here). I agree that AGP (2x/4x/1000x/ad-nauseum) is a crock and that 32-bit color isn't too useful, but 32-bit Z-buffering can be, if done right. Consumer hardware T&L is only just slightly ahead of its time. Support for hardware T&L will probably be present in every Windows game made from this point on, since the hardware is here and DirectX 8 will support it natively (nevermind OpenGL, which has always supported it). In case you think the HW T&L itself isn't up to snuff, the GeForce 256 actually significantly outperforms professional graphics subsystems with HW T&L on cards costing in the 4 to 5 figure price range. The visual quality can suck and you wouldn't want to do the same job with it, but that is exactly why NVidia released their Quadro chipset (a derivative of the GeForce designed for professional applications). However, HW T&L also should only matter if you have an underpowered system processor. This is good for me, at least, because I don't go out and buy a new processor every two months. > >If you take the Matrox G400 MAX as an example, it performs nearly as > >well in 32-bit modes as it does in 16-bit, so 32-bit doesn't have to > >mean a significant performance hit when your hardware is designed > >correctly (plenty of memory bandwidth). > > When 32 bit is a zero cost option, I'll be converted. Check back in a year. We're getting pretty close. > >> I recommend a cheap Voodoo2... > > >Right, but I've also had limited luck getting my VooDoo2 to work under > >FreeBSD. It does work, but I just can't get the gamma correct > >(everything is too dark), and the mouse is totally erratic (a > >linuxulator config problem on my part, I know). I guess I also > >haven't cared enough to actually get it working correctly. :-) > > Well, OK, I admit I got a Weendoze box for gaming because so few games > work with anything else. But soon, I'll have another go at gaming with > FreeBSD. Last time I dabbled, it was with one of the early Quake3 tests > and it worked fine on the Voodoo2 and the Linuxulator. Maybe my monitor > is naturally brighter. I run FreeBSD on my system 99.9% of the time, but when I do want to play a game, I just boot Windows. I don't think any amount of monitor brightness would help my situation in FreeBSD, though, since I cranked mine all the way up and could still just barely make things out. Most of the time I'd have to fire off a rocket just so I could see the explosion. > Despite the limitations, a cheap Voodoo2 will be easier to get working > for Linuxulator games than any other card, and will do OK until proper > OpenGL support arrives for better cards. Probably, since it is a separate piece of hardware. I actually wouldn't mind finding an extra 12MB Creative VooDoo2 so I can do SLI (at least in Windows, if not FreeBSD). I don't suppose you've got any pointers to documentation on setting up the Linuxulator for stuff like Quake2? Especially the mouse, since that seems to be a significant hangup for me. I haven't tried in a long time, so maybe the latest GLide stuff would fix my gamma problem. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures. ( http://www.freebsd.org ) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 12: 6:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0437D4513; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA67153; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:42:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:42:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Terry Lambert Cc: johnmpurser@home.com, "'Jonathon McKitrick'" , "'Jason Evans'" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems In-Reply-To: <200002040104.SAA00335@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I know that AT&T Global Net runs on i.Mail servers from Software.COM. > Jon Postel was on the board of directors; these guys are not slackers > when it comes to email. If they are having problems, then the > problems are operational, not software. You mean Worldnet has stopped beta-testing Intermail for Software.COM? Man, they must have come a long way. Mmm... Threaded TCL... Object MIME. The only thing I saw that was free of 'slack' was their glossies. I'm sure Gary Palmer would be able to give a glowing recommendation for Intermail. Gary? :) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 12:27:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from asmodeus.diabolis.net (209-6-187-143.c6-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com [209.6.187.143]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054CD4448 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmodeus (asmodeus [192.168.2.6]) by asmodeus.diabolis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA48879; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:31:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bunicula@rcn.com) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:31:38 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Anderson X-Sender: bunicula@asmodeus.diabolis.net To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Boston MA area user group? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000204115312.033db320@mail.threespace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Technical Information wrote: > I'd be interested in putting something together if there's sufficient > interest. In fact, I'm CC'ing this message to chat to see if there's > anyone else in southeastern New England who might be interested. I can put together a list to try to organize this. I've gotten ~ 5 replies so far. brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 12:34:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354EA4435 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id MAA88476; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb@FreeBSD.org) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: jmb set sender to jmb@freefall.freebsd.org using -f From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD, sponsored by Walnut Creek, and BSDI shared a 20'x20' booth at LinuxWorld in New York City this week. I went up to New York City to share in work at the show and see all the FreeBSD and BSDI folks that had gathered there. FreeBSD was very well received at this show--a show dedicated to Linux. Among the many factors that contributed to the Projects success at LinuxWorld were three items: 1. everyone's badge holder contained a coupon redeemable for a 3.4-Release CDROM. the coupon had an image of the daemon and the letters BSD in very large type....please notice the new emphasis on a single idea: BSD, rather than {FreeBSD,Net,Open}BSD and BSDI. 2. The booth what located on the central aisle of the exhibit hall, easily seen from one of the two entrances to the exhibit hall. 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a picture. These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting but not revealing garments. needless to say a very significant source of traffic at the booth. Many thanks to all our friends at Walnut Creek for creating this booth and the opportunies it provided to BSD to gain mindshare at a Linux event. Linus dispargaged BSD in his keynote...guess he must be feeling the heat at little. Best poster of the show: microsoft: where do you want to go today? linux: where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: are you guys coming, or what? jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 12:50:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A750D405B; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12534; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:50:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAqoa4uy; Fri Feb 4 13:50:09 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01129; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:50:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002042050.NAA01129@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:50:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), johnmpurser@home.com, jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ('Jonathon McKitrick'), jasone@canonware.com ('Jason Evans'), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at Feb 04, 2000 12:42:32 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I know that AT&T Global Net runs on i.Mail servers from Software.COM. > > Jon Postel was on the board of directors; these guys are not slackers > > when it comes to email. If they are having problems, then the > > problems are operational, not software. > > You mean Worldnet has stopped beta-testing Intermail for > Software.COM? Man, they must have come a long way. > > Mmm... Threaded TCL... Object MIME. > > The only thing I saw that was free of 'slack' was their glossies. > > I'm sure Gary Palmer would be able to give a glowing recommendation for > Intermail. Gary? :) I'd like to hear what anyone has to say on it, of course, but you are talking about the UNIX version, not the NT version, of the product, right? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 12:55:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627594087; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:51:13 -0500 Message-ID: <389B3D79.A486377D@cstone.net> Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 15:58:33 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > a Linux event. Linus dispargaged BSD in his keynote...guess he > must be feeling the heat at little. Really? Would you mind expanding on this? I'd like to know what he said. > Best poster of the show: > > microsoft: where do you want to go today? > linux: where do you want to go tomorrow? > BSD: are you guys coming, or what? That's very cool. One of my roommates has been adding on to it... Mac: Hey, wait for us! DOS: Dude, I'm so tired. I'll just wait here. :-) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 "If you are going to say IMHO, you could at least -pretend- to be humble." - Donald Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 12:58:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F9C413F; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA69138; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:56:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:56:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Terry Lambert Cc: johnmpurser@home.com, "'Jonathon McKitrick'" , "'Jason Evans'" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems In-Reply-To: <200002042050.NAA01129@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I'd like to hear what anyone has to say on it, of course, but you are > talking about the UNIX version, not the NT version, of the product, > right? I didn't think Intermail ran on NT. I don't think you could find an NT box that was big enough. :) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 13: 2:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D73433C for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Gps2-000PKS-00; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:02:26 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20384; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:02:26 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:02:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Chris Dillon Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: Choice of display cards under freebsd. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was just going to ask a question on a similar issue. I was reading about new graphics cards with Linux-only drivers. I've also heard BSD is somewhat less game-friendly than Linux, primarily due to the scheduler. Would it make sense to have a "set GAMES" option or command, that temporarily alters scheduling and allows direct access to video hardware as necessary? (real mode vs protected) -=> jm <=- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 13:11: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9D240F9; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Gq0Y-00072D-00; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:11:14 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20453; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:11:13 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:11:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >1. everyone's badge holder contained a coupon redeemable for a > 3.4-Release CDROM. the coupon had an image of the daemon and Does anyone have one they would like to give away? ;-) > the letters BSD in very large type....please notice the new >emphasis > on a single idea: BSD, rather than {FreeBSD,Net,Open}BSD and BSDI. I would like to see them lose they "Power to Serve" motto and go for something a bit more all-encompassing. -=> jm <=- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 13:11:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C2B44B1; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:11:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA11428; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:11:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAaeaqow; Fri Feb 4 14:11:10 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01942; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:11:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002042111.OAA01942@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:11:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), johnmpurser@home.com, jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ('Jonathon McKitrick'), jasone@canonware.com ('Jason Evans'), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at Feb 04, 2000 03:56:57 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I'd like to hear what anyone has to say on it, of course, but you are > > talking about the UNIX version, not the NT version, of the product, > > right? > > I didn't think Intermail ran on NT. > > I don't think you could find an NT box that was big enough. :) I interviewd and was offered a job there around the same time I did the same at Whistle. They wanted me to work on the NT port, and had a team of very competant (IMO) people assembled to do the job. I expect that, unless they got hit by busses, that the job is done. I was very impressed with the architecture and the service time claims for the AT&T installation of the software. In any case, the last time I talked with them, they were working on a FreeBSD version, so don't disparage them too harshly. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 13:50:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC453F49; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com (nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11]) by icicle.winternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3mc) with ESMTP id PAA18937; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:49:59 -0600 (CST) SMTP "HELO" (ESMTP) greeting from tundra.winternet.com But _really_ from :: nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11] SMTP "MAIL From" = nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com (Nathan Ahlstrom) SMTP "RCPT To" = Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id PAA27861; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:49:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:49:58 -0600 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000204154958.E25321@winternet.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org>; from jmb@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 12:34:32PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > picture. > These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting but not > revealing garments. needless to say a very significant source of > traffic at the booth. Whoa nice! Anyone have some pictures of that online?! Nathan -- Nathan Ahlstrom FreeBSD: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ nrahlstr@winternet.com PGP Key ID: 0x67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 13:58:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB42C3F84; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA69934; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:56:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:56:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Terry Lambert Cc: johnmpurser@home.com, "'Jonathon McKitrick'" , "'Jason Evans'" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems In-Reply-To: <200002042111.OAA01942@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I interviewd and was offered a job there around the same time I > did the same at Whistle. They wanted me to work on the NT port, > and had a team of very competant (IMO) people assembled to do > the job. I expect that, unless they got hit by busses, that > the job is done. > > I was very impressed with the architecture and the service time > claims for the AT&T installation of the software. > > In any case, the last time I talked with them, they were working > on a FreeBSD version, so don't disparage them too harshly. Your are aware that they have several mail products right? Intermail is the one Worldnet is using. Post.Office is their low end product. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 14:58:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luna.cdrom.com (luna.cdrom.com [204.216.28.135]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C60F40AA; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jim@localhost) by luna.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA47355; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:58:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:58:41 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Nathan Ahlstrom Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000204145840.A46645@luna.cdrom.com> Reply-To: jim@luna.cdrom.com References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000204154958.E25321@winternet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000204154958.E25321@winternet.com>; from nrahlstr@winternet.com on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 03:49:58PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 04 Feb 2000 at 15:49:58 -0600, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > > picture. > > These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting but not > > revealing garments. needless to say a very significant source of > > traffic at the booth. > > Whoa nice! Anyone have some pictures of that online?! http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabes-and-dustpuppy.jpg http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabettes.jpg - jim -- - jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@luna.cdrom.com - - phone: 1.925.691.2800 x.3814 - fax: 1.925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 16: 2:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102AA43D6 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:02:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12GsgR-0009Kb-00; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:02:39 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21231 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:02:38 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:02:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: reading this list and staying stable Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently received this in response to my post. Some names have been changed to protect the innocent. Any thoughts? I know some have complained about more frequent releases (both from a stability standpoint and a financial one). Is anyone else concerned by this rapid development cycle? > Other than bugs and security fixes, what kinds of things are discussed > here on -stable? And would it make more sense to stick with -release > if i can't keep up? if it make any difference .. i've been following freebsd via the -release cdroms for over 4 years now. i started with ver 2.0.5-release and would upgrade every time a new -release made its been ok, untill recently when for some strange reason the american contingent has decided freebsd needs to be release every five minutes and the bug testing of the prelease versions has been shoddy to say the least. but i have also started to serioulsy concider moving over to openbsd, the quieter, more measured pace of life is more predictable and things happen in an orderly manner .. not as it seems to be on freebsd where the coffee'd up superexitable juveniles seem to be getting release, for the sake of number bumping, happy. my apologies if your world view differs, i remember what freebsd used to be like, i've seen the changes happen and can see where some of them are leading .. it is not all good. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 17:15: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECB1443B; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=propro) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 12Gtoe-00001T-00; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:15:12 +0000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:15:06 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Schneiders To: Jim Mock Cc: Nathan Ahlstrom , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <20000204145840.A46645@luna.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Jim Mock wrote: > On Fri, 04 Feb 2000 at 15:49:58 -0600, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > > > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > > > picture. > > > These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting but not > > > revealing garments. needless to say a very significant source of > > > traffic at the booth. > > > > Whoa nice! Anyone have some pictures of that online?! > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabes-and-dustpuppy.jpg > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabettes.jpg > And there are two more there! Could someone. please, turn this into an windowmaker theme ? -- Marc Schneiders marc@venster.nl http://www.gluur.net marc@oldserver.demon.nl 2:14AM up 11:56, 6 users, load averages: 2.23, 2.11, 2.07 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 17:33: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luna.cdrom.com (luna.cdrom.com [204.216.28.135]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F436443B; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jim@localhost) by luna.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA96390; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:33:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:33:11 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Marc Schneiders Cc: Nathan Ahlstrom , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000204173311.A96285@luna.cdrom.com> Reply-To: jim@luna.cdrom.com References: <20000204145840.A46645@luna.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from marc@oldserver.demon.nl on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 02:15:06AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 at 02:15:06 +0100, Marc Schneiders wrote: > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Jim Mock wrote: > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2000 at 15:49:58 -0600, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > > > > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > > > > picture. > > > > These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting but > > > > not revealing garments. needless to say a very significant > > > > source of traffic at the booth. > > > > > > Whoa nice! Anyone have some pictures of that online?! > > > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabes-and-dustpuppy.jpg > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabettes.jpg > > > > And there are two more there! Could someone. please, turn this into an > windowmaker theme ? I'm thinking about doing that with these two.. http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/backgrounds/bg01.jpg http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/backgrounds/bg02.jpg I've got bg01 as my background in E on my laptop.. http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/desktop-02.03.2000.gif - jim -- - jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@luna.cdrom.com - - phone: 1.925.691.2800 x.3814 - fax: 1.925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 17:36:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA6D244B0; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23685; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:36:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000204182815.00cefd00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:36:28 -0700 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:34 PM 2/4/2000 , Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >Many thanks to all our friends at Walnut Creek for creating this >booth and the opportunies it provided to BSD to gain mindshare at >a Linux event. Linus dispargaged BSD in his keynote...guess he >must be feeling the heat at little. Er, uh, so to speak. :-) Seriously, though, what he disparaged was not the quality of the BSDs but rather the exclusive and highfalutin' attitudes which some of the developers are perceived as having. This *is* a problem, both in image and sometimes in practice: the core teams really are seen as exclusive, nearly inaccessible clubs. On Thursday afternoon, my wife and I (who were wearing red turtlenecks and were immediately bedecked with matching red horns by Bob Bruce when he saw us at the booth) were sitting in the ".org" corral with Heather Stern. Linus walked by, and Heather hailed him to talk. Linus started to respond to Heather, then spotted Isobel and me, looking appropriately, well, daemonic. He did a loooong double-take and asked, "What's going on here?" We just smiled devilishly and continued the conversation, acting as if it were perfectly normal for us to be dressed in red with horns on our heads. Great fun. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 17:37:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA52448C; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23696; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:37:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000204183646.00abce00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:37:26 -0700 To: Sean Michael Whipkey , "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <389B3D79.A486377D@cstone.net> References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:58 PM 2/4/2000 , Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > > Best poster of the show: > > > > microsoft: where do you want to go today? > > linux: where do you want to go tomorrow? > > BSD: are you guys coming, or what? > >That's very cool. One of my roommates has been adding on to it... > >Mac: Hey, wait for us! >DOS: Dude, I'm so tired. I'll just wait here. NT: Wait a minute while I reboot. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 17:39:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68874486; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23709; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:38:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000204183746.00ceb720@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:38:35 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick , "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:11 PM 2/4/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >I would like to see them lose they "Power to Serve" motto and go for >something a bit more all-encompassing. I agree. They should lose the dorky wait-daemon; he looks MUCH too meek and servile. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 18: 2:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D95B437A for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA41679 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:02:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp.simianscience.com (ospf-mdt.sentex.net [205.211.164.81]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA03300 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:02:25 -0500 (EST) From: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:01:28 GMT Message-ID: <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 4 Feb 2000 16:27:20 -0500, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: > >3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a OK, I gotta ask. Were they wearing sneakers ? ;-) > >Many thanks to all our friends at Walnut Creek for creating this >booth and the opportunies it provided to BSD to gain mindshare at >a Linux event. Linus dispargaged BSD in his keynote...guess he >must be feeling the heat at little. So what was his beef ? ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) Sentex Communications Corp, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 20: 3: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE2344E6; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29418; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:03:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:03:11 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000204182815.00cefd00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:34 PM 2/4/2000 , Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > On Thursday afternoon, my wife and I (who were wearing red turtlenecks > and were immediately bedecked with matching red horns by Bob Bruce when > he saw us at the booth) were sitting in the ".org" corral with Heather > Stern. Linus walked by, and Heather hailed him to talk. Linus started > to respond to Heather, then spotted Isobel and me, looking appropriately, > well, daemonic. He did a loooong double-take and asked, "What's going on > here?" We just smiled devilishly and continued the conversation, acting > as if it were perfectly normal for us to be dressed in red with horns on > our heads. Great fun. > Well, there, it *was* thos ehorns wer ethe best thing the BSDers could have done... I mean EVERYONE wore them (well not everyone, but it was ALOT) It was good meeting you....we may disagree about alot of things, but when you put a face to a name and actually have a conversation...its alot different then semi-flame wars on mailing lists. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 20: 4:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817E0437A for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:04:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29433; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:04:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:04:44 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Mike Tancsa Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Mike Tancsa wrote: > On 4 Feb 2000 16:27:20 -0500, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: > > > > >3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > > OK, I gotta ask. Were they wearing sneakers ? ;-) > you know, I didn;t really look... however the BSDI people *were* wearing Red Chucks. > > > >Many thanks to all our friends at Walnut Creek for creating this > >booth and the opportunies it provided to BSD to gain mindshare at > >a Linux event. Linus dispargaged BSD in his keynote...guess he > >must be feeling the heat at little. > > So what was his beef ? > What wasn;t his beef.it was "Linux" World, and we were stealing his show.... __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 20: 8:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4859A4520 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id FAA27443 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:08:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 001468877; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:45:51 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:45:51 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000205014551.A76766@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org>; from jmb@FreeBSD.org on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 12:34:32PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jonathan M . Bresler: > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > picture. > These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting but not > revealing garments. needless to say a very significant source of > traffic at the booth. If these two are like the one who is with Bill Paul on one of the pictures on Jordan's site, then wow! -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 20:15:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64D6444F6 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29522; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:15:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:15:35 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brian Anderson Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Boston MA area user group? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I"m probably moving to Boston (got a tentative offer from a prominent internet based company around Boston) and I'm the founder of the NYC Users Group. I'm totally interested in this, I even mentioned it to Robert Bruce earlier today. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Brian Anderson wrote: > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Technical Information wrote: > > > I'd be interested in putting something together if there's sufficient > > interest. In fact, I'm CC'ing this message to chat to see if there's > > anyone else in southeastern New England who might be interested. > > > I can put together a list to try to organize this. I've gotten ~ 5 replies > so far. > > > > > brian > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 20:30:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freenet.nether.net (freenet.nether.net [204.42.253.18]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A79144F9 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from quantum9@localhost) by freenet.nether.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01029 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:31:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:31:14 -0500 From: agent smith To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000204233113.B29994@freenet.nether.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm sorry , but i didn't find the li'l red devils to be all that impressive. And I'm sure they just LOVED being oggled by computer hackers. ("hey baby, nice software"). I remember going to ski trade shows where they did the same thing. The girls really would have preferred to be *anywhere* else. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 20:40:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rock.ghis.net (rock.ghis.net [209.222.164.7]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32D9644D4 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (postfix@18-090.008.popsite.net [209.69.196.90]) by rock.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA98990; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:40:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by shadow.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 947A71B2C; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:40:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:40:10 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: agent smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000204234010.A65383@shadow.blackdawn.com> References: <20000204233113.B29994@freenet.nether.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000204233113.B29994@freenet.nether.net>; from quantum9@freenet.nether.net on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:31:14PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:31:14PM -0500, agent smith wrote: > I'm sorry , but i didn't find the li'l red devils to be all that > impressive. And I'm sure they just LOVED being oggled by computer > hackers. ("hey baby, nice software"). I remember going to ski trade > shows where they did the same thing. The girls really would have > preferred to be *anywhere* else. You know, I strongly disagree with your example. I happen to be one of the top HS downhill racers in my state. Your stereotype about women and skiing is completely unjustified. Go find something else to debunk. (I admit that the average woman who goes skiing doesn't necessarily race, however, the point is that you're speaking entirely based on your stereotypes of the women you saw - not from actual experience.) Not ironically, some of the best female racers I know are also some of the sexiest women I know. I am assuming at this time that you have not spoken to either of the two women in the picture, and therefore know nothing about their hobbies (I don't, either). You are, thus, speaking based on your stereotypes. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 20:59:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freenet.nether.net (freenet.nether.net [204.42.253.18]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73A1450F for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (quantum9@localhost) by freenet.nether.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03976; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:59:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:59:43 -0500 (EST) From: agent smith To: Will Andrews Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <20000204234010.A65383@shadow.blackdawn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:31:14PM -0500, agent smith wrote: > > I'm sorry , but i didn't find the li'l red devils to be all that > > impressive. And I'm sure they just LOVED being oggled by computer > > hackers. ("hey baby, nice software"). I remember going to ski trade > > shows where they did the same thing. The girls really would have > > preferred to be *anywhere* else. > > You know, I strongly disagree with your example. I happen to be one of > the top HS downhill racers in my state. Your stereotype about women and > skiing is completely unjustified. Go find something else to debunk. > (I admit that the average woman who goes skiing doesn't necessarily > race, however, the point is that you're speaking entirely based on your > stereotypes of the women you saw - not from actual experience.) Let me qualify what i said. Maybe i was unclear. And you are correct, i did not speak to them. I wasn't even at the show. So if you want to slam me for jumping to conclusions, that's fine, i accept the chastisement. However, what i was referring to was not women in skiing, or women in computers, it was what i *have* seen at trade shows: models paid to attract attention through sex appeal. Now, i'm not looking to start a war on women's rights or say i don't enjoy beauty when i see it. But there are two possibilities: either those two girls are big computer fans and volunteered to pose and support FreeBSD (in which case my conclusions were rash and unjustified) or they were paid models who wouldn't know kernel code from kernel corn. It just reminds me of a picture that circulated the Linux crowd of a barely teenaged girl in her underwear and a babydoll T-shirt with "I love Linux" on it standing in front of a Cray.. I was disappointed in linux, and I am only glad that (apparently) FreeBSD at least chose appropriately aged models. > Not ironically, some of the best female racers I know are also some of > the sexiest women I know. > > I am assuming at this time that you have not spoken to either of the two > women in the picture, and therefore know nothing about their hobbies (I > don't, either). You are, thus, speaking based on your stereotypes. Only the stereotype that cute women dressed alluringly at high-tech trade shows who pose for pictures and pretend to like all the guys that greet them are USUALLY being paid for it. I can't imagine that computer trade shows are that different from any other trade show. The only exception would be if they truly ARE FreeBSD afficionados and volunteered to pose at the booth. Even that possibility raises some questions. I won't even get into the giant devil mascot :-) I'm sure there were penguins too. Guess i'm just not much of a mascot-and-model type. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 21: 2:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720844282; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12GxMo-000D5p-00; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:02:42 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27146; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:02:41 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 05:02:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Jim Mock Cc: Marc Schneiders , Nathan Ahlstrom , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <20000204173311.A96285@luna.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I must say that is a fantastic looking setup you have there. Is that Gnome on Windowmaker? And what are the buttons along the top of the screen? What else can you tell us about your desktop? When i can afford a desktop machine, i want to be sure to get one with enough video capacity to look that good. I guess i need a minimum 1024x768? -=> jm <=- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 21:27:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (ftp.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23EC54505 for ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (tetron02.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13565; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:26:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from zeus@tetronsoftware.com) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:26:16 -0600 (CST) From: Gene Harris To: agent smith Cc: Will Andrews , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let's face it, FreeBSD is sexxy. And for your gratification, my wife got a kick out of the girls posing. She didn't seem to be offended at all. And since we run a software company that goes to a lot of trades, I can tell you, those booths get pretty old. Getting paid to be there is a lot better than being there because you need to be there for a show of force. ;-) My wife has done some of the hiring, and while some shows, like car shows and gun and knife shows are pretty ugly for the models, they seem to find computer geeks pretty harmless. (Another gratuitous generalization based on two data points.) :-) *==============================================* *Gene Harris http://www.tetronsoftware.com* *FreeBSD Novice * *==============================================* On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, agent smith wrote: > > > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > > > On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:31:14PM -0500, agent smith wrote: > > > I'm sorry , but i didn't find the li'l red devils to be all that > > > impressive. And I'm sure they just LOVED being oggled by computer > > > hackers. ("hey baby, nice software"). I remember going to ski trade > > > shows where they did the same thing. The girls really would have > > > preferred to be *anywhere* else. > > > > You know, I strongly disagree with your example. I happen to be one of > > the top HS downhill racers in my state. Your stereotype about women and > > skiing is completely unjustified. Go find something else to debunk. > > (I admit that the average woman who goes skiing doesn't necessarily > > race, however, the point is that you're speaking entirely based on your > > stereotypes of the women you saw - not from actual experience.) > > Let me qualify what i said. Maybe i was unclear. And you are correct, i > did not speak to them. I wasn't even at the show. So if you want to slam > me for jumping to conclusions, that's fine, i accept the chastisement. > > However, what i was referring to was not women in skiing, or women in > computers, it was what i *have* seen at trade shows: models paid to > attract attention through sex appeal. Now, i'm not looking to start a war > on women's rights or say i don't enjoy beauty when i see it. But there > are two possibilities: either those two girls are big computer fans and > volunteered to pose and support FreeBSD (in which case my conclusions were > rash and unjustified) or they were paid models who wouldn't know kernel > code from kernel corn. > > It just reminds me of a picture that circulated the Linux crowd of a > barely teenaged girl in her underwear and a babydoll T-shirt with "I love > Linux" on it standing in front of a Cray.. I was disappointed in linux, > and I am only glad that (apparently) FreeBSD at least chose appropriately > aged models. > > > Not ironically, some of the best female racers I know are also some of > > the sexiest women I know. > > > > I am assuming at this time that you have not spoken to either of the two > > women in the picture, and therefore know nothing about their hobbies (I > > don't, either). You are, thus, speaking based on your stereotypes. > > Only the stereotype that cute women dressed alluringly at high-tech trade > shows who pose for pictures and pretend to like all the guys that greet > them are USUALLY being paid for it. I can't imagine that computer trade > shows are that different from any other trade show. The only exception > would be if they truly ARE FreeBSD afficionados and volunteered to pose at > the booth. Even that possibility raises some questions. > > I won't even get into the giant devil mascot :-) I'm sure there were > penguins too. Guess i'm just not much of a mascot-and-model type. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 21:38:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sblake.comcen.com.au (sblake.comcen.com.au [203.23.236.144]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF1A4512; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from aunty@localhost) by sblake.comcen.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA82328; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:40:20 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from aunty) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:40:20 +1100 From: aunty To: Jim Mock Cc: Marc Schneiders , Nathan Ahlstrom , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000205164020.B77294@comcen.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Jim Mock , Marc Schneiders , Nathan Ahlstrom , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000204145840.A46645@luna.cdrom.com> <20000204173311.A96285@luna.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000204173311.A96285@luna.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 05:33:11PM -0800, Jim Mock wrote: > On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 at 02:15:06 +0100, Marc Schneiders wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Jim Mock wrote: > > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2000 at 15:49:58 -0600, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > > > > > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > > > > > picture. > > > > > These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting but > > > > > not revealing garments. needless to say a very significant > > > > > source of traffic at the booth. > > > > > > > > Whoa nice! Anyone have some pictures of that online?! > > > > > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabes-and-dustpuppy.jpg > > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabettes.jpg > > > > > > > And there are two more there! Could someone. please, turn this into an > > windowmaker theme ? > > I'm thinking about doing that with these two.. > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/backgrounds/bg01.jpg > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/backgrounds/bg02.jpg > > I've got bg01 as my background in E on my laptop.. > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/desktop-02.03.2000.gif Nice, but the whole thing's a bit of a lie, isn't it :-) I mean, we've only ever identified about six female FreeBSD users, most of whom are lesbians. The models at the show are quite appropriate in this context, not unappealing to either sex, and they weren't claiming to be anything other than models, a job that they seem to have performed excellently. But to claim that women adore FreeBSD is stretching it a bit far! All it says is that FreeBSD men and women adore women :-) Whenever I see hired flesh at these shows, I can't help reading it as "users of this product are all males who can't get an erection without a lot of help" but perhaps I'm just strange. So... how many new women did we convert to FreeBSD through the show? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 22:18:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luna.cdrom.com (adsl-63-192-209-55.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.192.209.55]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E3D452F; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jim@localhost) by luna.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01128; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:17:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:17:07 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Marc Schneiders , Nathan Ahlstrom , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000204221707.A1040@luna.cdrom.com> Reply-To: jim@luna.cdrom.com References: <20000204173311.A96285@luna.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:02:41AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 at 05:02:41 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I must say that is a fantastic looking setup you have there. Thanks. > Is that Gnome on Windowmaker? It's the GNOME panel on Enlightenment with the spiffE Enlightenment and gtk theme. > And what are the buttons along the top of the screen? That's gbuffy telling me how much mail I have in each of my mailboxes (which are filtered to by procmail). It's in the ports collection.. /usr/ports/mail/gbuffy. > What else can you tell us about your desktop? What else do you want to know? The mutt window is an aterm, the IRC and other terminal window are eterms.. I think that just about covers everything on the screen.. > When i can afford a desktop machine, i want to be sure to get one with > enough video capacity to look that good. I guess i need a minimum > 1024x768? That's my laptop.. runs 1024x768 @ 16bpp pretty decently. I haven't redone the background to fit my desktop machine resolution yet (1600x1200) :-) - jim -- - jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@luna.cdrom.com - - phone: 1.925.691.2800 x.3814 - fax: 1.925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 4 23:22:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A3E451E; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from granite.hip.berkeley.edu (granite.hip.berkeley.edu [136.152.155.25]) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA82216; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:22:28 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by granite.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA93317; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:22:00 -0800 From: Jeremy Lea To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000204232200.C273@shale.csir.co.za> References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org>; from jmb@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 12:34:32PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 12:34:32PM -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > picture. These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting > but not revealing garments. needless to say a very significant > source of traffic at the booth. I think this is an ideal solution to the continued Linux vs FreeBSD (err sorry BSD :) flamewars on slashdot. Get these girls to say that they prefer BSDer's to Linux lusers and then when someone comes with some lame nonsense like "... but can you *prove* that BSD's networking is faster than Linux 2.2.23473 ...", we can just reply "Well, no, but I can prove that chicks dig FreeBSD - http:// ...". There is no good response... -Jeremy For the humour impared: :-) :-) :-) -- FreeBSD - Because the best things in life are free... http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 0: 4: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.casema.net (smtpe.casema.net [195.96.96.172]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E9F7E455D for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10199 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2000 08:04:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO wanadoo.nl) (212.64.80.28) by smtpe.casema.net with SMTP; 5 Feb 2000 08:04:18 -0000 Message-ID: <389BD95E.C50E6A98@wanadoo.nl> Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 08:03:42 +0000 From: AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems References: <200002042111.OAA01942@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > [cut] [cut] > I was very impressed with the architecture and the service time > claims for the AT&T installation of the software. When I still worked for IBM, we had a home office connection 'powered' by AT&t. I can not recall having such a lousy service time: at least twice a week for at least 2 to 4 hours per outage !! AT&T network service does not appeal very much to me, so I think that if they also provide the @home e-mail stuff it does not come as a surprise to me it has lots of problems. Aernoudt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 1:54:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12AC93DED; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA26846; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:54:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000205024714.040dd140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:50:14 -0700 To: Pat Lynch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000204182815.00cefd00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:03 PM 2/4/2000 , Pat Lynch wrote: > It was good meeting you....we may disagree about alot of things, >but when you put a face to a name and actually have a conversation...its >alot different then semi-flame wars on mailing lists. Disagreeing is fine. (Without disagreement, there'd be no productive brainstorming, no new ideas, no growth. Wasn't it Aristotle who said that the "dialectic" was the source of everything good?) But flaming for its own sake ISN'T good, so I'm glad we had the chance to meet in person. I hope that if you do go to Andover that you can help to make "Slashburn" a less harsh and more supportive environment.... It gets NASTY there sometimes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 3:31:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E316C4416 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19376 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2000 11:32:11 -0000 Received: from useraq51.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.111) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 5 Feb 2000 11:32:11 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00620; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:31:56 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:31:55 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Mike Tancsa Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000205113155.A346@marder-1> References: <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 02:01:28AM +0000, Mike Tancsa wrote: > On 4 Feb 2000 16:27:20 -0500, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: > > > > >3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > > OK, I gotta ask. Were they wearing sneakers ? ;-) > Looks like it; http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabe.jpg > > > >Many thanks to all our friends at Walnut Creek for creating this > >booth and the opportunies it provided to BSD to gain mindshare at > >a Linux event. Linus dispargaged BSD in his keynote...guess he > >must be feeling the heat at little. > > So what was his beef ? > > ---Mike > Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) > Sentex Communications Corp, > Waterloo, Ontario, Canada > "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers > could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- "there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture that allows you to install Windows too" -Matthew D. Fuller ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 3:35:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B6943B1 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 03:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA05614; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 04:02:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 04:02:10 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: agent smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000205040210.T25520@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000204233113.B29994@freenet.nether.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000204233113.B29994@freenet.nether.net>; from quantum9@freenet.nether.net on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:31:14PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * agent smith [000204 20:57] wrote: > I'm sorry , but i didn't find the li'l red devils to be all that > impressive. And I'm sure they just LOVED being oggled by computer > hackers. ("hey baby, nice software"). I remember going to ski trade > shows where they did the same thing. The girls really would have > preferred to be *anywhere* else. That's a nice observation, you wouldn't happen to be white Anglo-Saxon would you? If it weren't for you folk we wouldn't know exactly what was right/wrong with our behavior. The unwashed masses thank you. now get a life, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 6:29:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A1A458D for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 06:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29432; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:28:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000205072706.04081a20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:28:44 -0700 To: Mark Ovens , Mike Tancsa From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000205113155.A346@marder-1> References: <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:31 AM 2/5/2000 , Mark Ovens wrote: > > OK, I gotta ask. Were they wearing sneakers ? ;-) > > > >Looks like it; http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabe.jpg Yep; note that she was in latex, rather than just spandex, this time. Really cute. (I encouraged her to go for the Demi Moore look the next time, but I don't think her mom will go for that. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 7: 1: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF71D4142; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 07:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12H6iA-000AGS-00; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 15:01:22 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28758; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 15:01:22 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 15:01:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Jim Mock Cc: Marc Schneiders , Nathan Ahlstrom , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <20000204221707.A1040@luna.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wow! What kind of laptop? -=> jm <=- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 9: 5:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AEC643B1 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=propro) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 12H8en-0004CJ-00; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:06:01 +0000 Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:06:00 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Schneiders To: Jim Mock Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <20000204173311.A96285@luna.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Jim Mock wrote: > On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 at 02:15:06 +0100, Marc Schneiders wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Jim Mock wrote: > > > On Fri, 04 Feb 2000 at 15:49:58 -0600, Nathan Ahlstrom wrote: > > > > > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > > > > > picture. > > > > > These two were the dressed all in red with tight fitting but > > > > > not revealing garments. needless to say a very significant > > > > > source of traffic at the booth. > > > > > > > > Whoa nice! Anyone have some pictures of that online?! > > > > > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabes-and-dustpuppy.jpg > > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabettes.jpg > > > > > > > And there are two more there! Could someone. please, turn this into an > > windowmaker theme ? > > I'm thinking about doing that with these two.. > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/backgrounds/bg01.jpg > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/backgrounds/bg02.jpg > > I've got bg01 as my background in E on my laptop.. > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jim/desktop-02.03.2000.gif > > - jim > We definitely need some bodypainted person for the background! As elsewehere in this thread I read that all users of FreeBSD are either male or lesbian, I am afraid I have to suggest a female person for this, unless (which is statistically unlikely) a huge percentage of the male users are gay. I would have loved to volunteer myself. Pity. -- Marc Schneiders marc@venster.nl http://www.gluur.net marc@oldserver.demon.nl 6:02PM up 1 day, 3:44, 7 users, load averages: 2.01, 2.00, 2.00 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 9:13:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B6E45E6; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05836; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:13:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:13:51 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000205024714.040dd140@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well if I do end up at Andover, its unlikely I'll have much contact with Slashdot users, as I'll be working on network backend stuff. However, I know for a fact the Slashdot "editors" are not anti-BSD in any way shape or form, and thier moderation setup does not allow them to filter responses to the "message boards". However, you'll notice, most flames get moderated down, and I usually set my threshold to 1 or 2. Unfortunately, the original environment Slashdot was concieved in was mostly Linux users, whom we all know, alot are totally fanatical, the NIH stuff there gets me pissed off to no end. However, there was promise of alot of cross-pollination of educated Linux users and developers to the BSD areas at the Bazaar, and it certainly was not based on the presence of the Booth Babes, but rather on the fact that we presented a united front, and let them know the differences in a calm rational format. Many of the sales/marketing types there were surprised at how well some of us articulated ourselves when asked questions about BSD, OpenSales was talking about developing for BSD's and Sun/StarOffice said they would work on a port with some help from members of our community (still waiting to hear from them), and some cooperation was fostered btwn OpenBSD's Mickey Shalayeff and the Linux HP-PA Risc people (Mickey is working on OpenBSD PA-Risc). The Linux editor from Gaming Alliance said that they want someone to do a BSD feature on how to get Linux games working under BSD and were interested in having some consulting on using BSD for a new project they were working on (server wise) I'm sure Jordan, Mike, Bill, Murray, Marc, Robert, Pat, et al. had some very similar experiences there. However, I jokingly berated Cybernet for not showing thier BSD based products, and as punishment they were forced to wear Daemon horns and FreeBSD pins ;) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:03 PM 2/4/2000 , Pat Lynch wrote: > > > It was good meeting you....we may disagree about alot of things, > >but when you put a face to a name and actually have a conversation...its > >alot different then semi-flame wars on mailing lists. > > Disagreeing is fine. (Without disagreement, there'd be no productive > brainstorming, no new ideas, no growth. Wasn't it Aristotle who said > that the "dialectic" was the source of everything good?) But flaming > for its own sake ISN'T good, so I'm glad we had the chance to meet > in person. I hope that if you do go to Andover that you can help to > make "Slashburn" a less harsh and more supportive environment.... It > gets NASTY there sometimes. > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 9:55:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from asmodeus.diabolis.net (209-6-187-143.c6-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com [209.6.187.143]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA073447D for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from asmodeus (asmodeus [192.168.2.6]) by asmodeus.diabolis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA54385; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:52:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bunicula@rcn.com) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:52:35 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Anderson X-Sender: bunicula@asmodeus.diabolis.net To: Pat Lynch Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Boston MA area user group? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Even better! someone with experience doing this :) So far I'm at ~ 10 people who have expressed interest, so this should work... Brian On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Pat Lynch wrote: > I"m probably moving to Boston (got a tentative offer from a prominent > internet based company around Boston) and I'm the founder of the NYC Users > Group. > > I'm totally interested in this, I even mentioned it to Robert Bruce > earlier today. > > -Pat > > __ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > lynch@bsdunix.net > lynch@unix.sh > lynch@blowfi.sh > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Brian Anderson wrote: > > > On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Technical Information wrote: > > > > > I'd be interested in putting something together if there's sufficient > > > interest. In fact, I'm CC'ing this message to chat to see if there's > > > anyone else in southeastern New England who might be interested. > > > > > > I can put together a list to try to organize this. I've gotten ~ 5 replies > > so far. > > > > > > > > > > brian > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > -- -------'---,---'--- bunicula@rcn.com ---,---'---,------- AAAAIIIIIIIIEEEEE! Evil... Bright... Yellow... Thing...!! That must be the Daystar. I've heard talk about it. User Friendly, 12/8/1999 --'--,--'--,-- http://diabolis.net --'--,--'--,-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 15:12:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD22F4692 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 15:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-118-165.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.118.165]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA32508 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:13:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA40384 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:13:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200002052313.RAA40384@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:36:28 MST." <4.2.2.20000204182815.00cefd00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:13:08 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > > On Thursday afternoon, my wife and I (who were wearing red turtlenecks > and were immediately bedecked with matching red horns by Bob Bruce when > he saw us at the booth) were sitting in the ".org" corral with Heather > Stern. Linus walked by, and Heather hailed him to talk. Linus started > to respond to Heather, then spotted Isobel and me, looking appropriately, > well, daemonic. He did a loooong double-take and asked, "What's going on > here?" We just smiled devilishly and continued the conversation, acting > as if it were perfectly normal for us to be dressed in red with horns on > our heads. Great fun. In order to one-up the BSD people, Linux users are going to have to attend the next LinuxWorld wearing penguin bills. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 16:24:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (kewanee.net [208.29.66.222]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4080A468C for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7E27BD5FD; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:21:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:21:37 -0600 From: Dennis Reiter To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000205182137.I70413@reiters.org> References: <200002052313.RAA40384@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200002052313.RAA40384@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:13:08PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And I missed it by moments: http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00679.JPG much to my Slackware using friend's delight: http://www.lugga.org/lwe/2000/feb/images/DCP00678.JPG :-) While amateurish, the rest of the pix aren't bad, either. Denny Quoting David Kelly (dkelly@hiwaay.net): > Brett Glass writes: > > > > On Thursday afternoon, my wife and I (who were wearing red turtlenecks > > and were immediately bedecked with matching red horns by Bob Bruce when > > he saw us at the booth) were sitting in the ".org" corral with Heather > > Stern. Linus walked by, and Heather hailed him to talk. Linus started > > to respond to Heather, then spotted Isobel and me, looking appropriately, > > well, daemonic. He did a loooong double-take and asked, "What's going on > > here?" We just smiled devilishly and continued the conversation, acting > > as if it were perfectly normal for us to be dressed in red with horns on > > our heads. Great fun. > > In order to one-up the BSD people, Linux users are going to have to > attend the next LinuxWorld wearing penguin bills. > > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org Gallatin River Communications | reiterd@gallatinriver.com FreeBSD: The Power to Serve | www.freebsd.org Linux Users Group Galesburg Area | www.lugga.org I hate mornings. I know they hate me back, too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 17:20:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FDD5469A; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 17:20:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id QAA35262; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:51:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb@FreeBSD.org) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:51:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200002060051.QAA35262@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: jmb set sender to jmb@freefall.freebsd.org using -f From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: brett@lariat.org Cc: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, mike@sentex.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20000205072706.04081a20@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Sat, 05 Feb 2000 07:28:44 -0700) Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. References: <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> <4.2.2.20000205072706.04081a20@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > >Looks like it; http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabe.jpg > > Yep; note that she was in latex, rather than just spandex, this time. > Really cute. (I encouraged her to go for the Demi Moore look the next > time, but I don't think her mom will go for that. ;-) > judging from conversations with her, and her admission to UC Berkeley, she is smart enough to just ignore that type of suggest. the two of us came up with a couple ideas for dealing with people like that: read their badge carefully, add their name to a list in front of them, suggest that they go over to the Red Hat booth....you get the idea. besides it would be a real shame to cut that hair for the GI Jane look. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 5 21:49:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC554680; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:49:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA05784; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 22:49:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000205224559.03f1ff00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 22:49:43 -0700 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Cc: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, mike@sentex.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <200002060051.QAA35262@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <4.2.2.20000205072706.04081a20@localhost> <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> <389b825f.682187483@mail.sentex.net> <4.2.2.20000205072706.04081a20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:51 PM 2/5/2000 , Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > >Looks like it; http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabe.jpg > > > > Yep; note that she was in latex, rather than just spandex, this time. > > Really cute. (I encouraged her to go for the Demi Moore look the next > > time, but I don't think her mom will go for that. ;-) > > > > judging from conversations with her, and her admission to UC > Berkeley, she is smart enough to just ignore that type of suggest. Actually, she smiled mischievously and said, "I don't know if I could get away with that. Hmmm.... In California, maybe...." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 6 3:11:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mutt.eurobell.net (mutt.eurobell.net [212.24.65.70]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A6C853D4A for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 563 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2000 11:19:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ice) (212.24.70.5) by mutt.eurobell.net with SMTP; 6 Feb 2000 11:19:25 -0000 Message-Id: <4.3.0.33.0.20000206111147.00af28a0@pop.clara.net> X-Sender: steveda@pop.clara.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.0.33 (Beta) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 11:14:13 +0000 To: "Ignacio Cristerna" , From: Steve Darrall Subject: Re: A quote from Linux Journal Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <02b501bf6f6c$6de04a70$140a0a0a@nachin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:03 PM 2/4/00 -0600, in advocacy@freebsd.org Ignacio Cristerna wrote: >Excerpt from Linux Journal: > >"I ran into a few of the FreeBSD girls, who >easily took the award for tackiest and most sexist booth presence. The >hired booth help wore very tight red devil suits, complete with tails and >horns. Nothing wrong with having a little fun, but you wouldn't catch a >classy OS like Linux slipping to such a low level." Hrmmm sounds like someone thinks that having live penguins on the exhibition floor (Linux World Expo wasn't it?) is classy. But no...surely "a classy OS like Linux" wouldn't slip to such a low level? Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 6 4: 6:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504023D0C for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 04:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id WAA00607; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:05:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) via SMTP by ren.detir.qld.gov.au, id smtpd000578; Sun Feb 6 22:05:41 2000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14262; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:37:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07623; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:37:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA87839; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:37:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <200002061137.VAA87839@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Chris Dillon , Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Choice of display cards under freebsd. References: In-Reply-To: from Jonathon McKitrick at "Fri, 04 Feb 2000 21:02:26 +0000" Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:37:10 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 4th February 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >I was just going to ask a question on a similar issue. I was reading >about new graphics cards with Linux-only drivers. I've also heard BSD >is somewhat less game-friendly than Linux, primarily due to the >scheduler. You'd have to give some details. I don't know any reason why the Linux scheduler would be better for games than the FreeBSD one. >Would it make sense to have a "set GAMES" option or >command, that temporarily alters scheduling and allows direct access >to video hardware as necessary? (real mode vs protected) The scheduler already has some realtime facilities, and there are ways to get direct access to hardware. What's really needed is a proper OpenGL interface within X11 and that's coming soon. When XFree86 4.0 is released, gaming under FreeBSD and Linux will be much simpler and might just take off. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 6 4: 7:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A51F3D45 for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 04:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id WAA00608; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:05:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) via SMTP by ren.detir.qld.gov.au, id smtpda00578; Sun Feb 6 22:05:42 2000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14006; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:24:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07445; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:24:24 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA87658; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:24:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <200002061124.VAA87658@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Chris Dillon Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Haikal Saadh Subject: Re: Choice of display cards under freebsd. References: In-Reply-To: from Chris Dillon at "Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:20:08 -0600" Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 21:24:23 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 4th February 2000, Chris Dillon wrote: >On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Stephen McKay wrote: >> Last time I dabbled, it was with one of the early Quake3 tests >> and it worked fine on the Voodoo2 and the Linuxulator. Maybe my monitor >> is naturally brighter. > >I run FreeBSD on my system 99.9% of the time, but when I do want to >play a game, I just boot Windows. I don't think any amount of monitor >brightness would help my situation in FreeBSD, though, since I cranked >mine all the way up and could still just barely make things out. >Most of the time I'd have to fire off a rocket just so I could see the >explosion. Have you tried setting r_gamma to, say, 1.5? Or 2.0? It looks OK on my gear with the default 1.0, but maybe I'm lucky. >> Despite the limitations, a cheap Voodoo2 will be easier to get working >> for Linuxulator games than any other card, and will do OK until proper >> OpenGL support arrives for better cards. > >Probably, since it is a separate piece of hardware. I actually >wouldn't mind finding an extra 12MB Creative VooDoo2 so I can do SLI >(at least in Windows, if not FreeBSD). I don't suppose you've got any >pointers to documentation on setting up the Linuxulator for stuff like >Quake2? Especially the mouse, since that seems to be a significant >hangup for me. I haven't tried in a long time, so maybe the latest >GLide stuff would fix my gamma problem. I can't remember whether Quake 2 was good or bad on my gear. I think I've changed disks since then so all experiments have been lost. But I've just verified that Q3test 1.05 still works, all default settings. Colour fine, sound fine, mouse fine. I didn't do anything clever, I just set it up according to a post on freebsd-multimedia and it worked. Martin Cracauer is a Quake on FreeBSD expert, and also Steve Reid posted about his success with Quake3 on the G200. Search the multimedia list. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 6 5:26: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8AAA3D3F; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 05:26:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA07473; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:25:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000206062306.03f21610@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 06:25:07 -0700 To: Steve Darrall , "Ignacio Cristerna" , From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: A quote from Linux Journal Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.33.0.20000206111147.00af28a0@pop.clara.net> References: <02b501bf6f6c$6de04a70$140a0a0a@nachin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:14 AM 2/6/2000 , Steve Darrall wrote: >At 06:03 PM 2/4/00 -0600, in advocacy@freebsd.org Ignacio Cristerna wrote: >>Excerpt from Linux Journal: >> >>"I ran into a few of the FreeBSD girls, who easily took the award for tackiest and most sexist booth presence. The hired booth help wore very tight red devil suits, complete with tails and horns. Nothing wrong with having a little fun, but you wouldn't catch a classy OS like Linux slipping to such a low level." Gimme a break. The author obviously has no sense of fun, and/or is using political correctness as a lame excuse to slam the BSDs. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 1: 3:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D90B3D37; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 01:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15377; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:04:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Feb 2000 10:04:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler"'s message of "Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:34:32 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" writes: > 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a > picture. So who's the third babe on jkh's pictures? The one with the sneakers, waist-long hair and the latex outfit? If you don't know what I mean, compare the following pictures: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/jkh-and-babe.jpg http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/jkh-and-babes.jpg DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 5:50:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2463EC3 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 05:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id OAA12821; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:50:48 +0100 (CET) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id OAA06826; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:51:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <20000207145141.10574@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:51:41 +0100 From: Phil Regnauld To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 10:04:15AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > If you don't know what I mean, compare the following pictures: > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/jkh-and-babe.jpg > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/jkh-and-babes.jpg I don't know, but Jordan sure got hairy :-) -- Corn circles [...] are a hoax. The aliens who made them told me so. -- BSD/Dk -- Danish *BSD User Group -- http://www.bsd-dk.dk -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 6: 9:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF363DF7 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 06:09:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA16391; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:09:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000207145141.10574@ns.int.ftf.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Feb 2000 15:09:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: Phil Regnauld's message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:51:41 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Phil Regnauld writes: > I don't know, but Jordan sure got hairy :-) Like they say, "trust is clean shaven" [1] DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no [1] the "trust is clean shaven" slogan is a registered trademark of Ruud&Rye somethingorother. I'm not kidding. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 15:17:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luna.cdrom.com (luna.cdrom.com [204.216.28.135]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9173D90 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:17:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jim@localhost) by luna.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA01005; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:16:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:16:42 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000207151642.B536@luna.cdrom.com> Reply-To: jim@luna.cdrom.com References: <20000204221707.A1040@luna.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 03:01:21PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Cc: list trimmed..] On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 at 15:01:21 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Wow! What kind of laptop? It's a Sony VAIO 505VE.. does 1024x768. - jim -- - jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@luna.cdrom.com - - phone: 1.925.691.2800 x.3814 - fax: 1.925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 17: 9:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6938940EB for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:09:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17376 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:10:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp.simianscience.com (ospf-mdt.sentex.net [205.211.164.81]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA07396 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:10:06 -0500 (EST) From: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 01:08:28 GMT Message-ID: <389f6c19.96720656@mail.sentex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Great looking booth photo at http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/the-booth.jpg One item that somewhat suprised me was SUN being there. What was their emphasis about, as well as what was the general reaction to them ? ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) Sentex Communications Corp, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 17:15:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E306640ED for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24954 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:16:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:16:32 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: What Linus said about FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A number of people have stated that Linus disparaged FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Here, for the purpose of discussion, iswhat he actually said. At 41:59 in the video at http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_play.ram?stream_id=207&stream_type=2&play_htt p=1&play_Real5=1, Linux has the following exchange with an audience member who has walked up to the mike to ask a question. Audience member: When I first heard of Linux, I thought it was, well, "This is just another FreeBSD." But obviously, Linux has far overshadowed FreeBSD, and FreeBSD had, like, a lot of really good people working on it. What have you guys learned from FreeBSD? Why have you guys done so much better? Linus: I think that the one thing you should always remember is that it's not just all about technology. Technology is important; what's equally important is -- is just the kind of community you build up around it. And it happened -- probably mostly by mistake, certainly by luck, not by planning -- that the Linux community was just so much more vibrant, so much friendlier, so much more open than the BSD communities used to be. And that, I think, was the deciding factor. It was timing; there was luck; I think what happened was that there was a real need for SOMETHING like Linux. And people didn't necessarily want it to be Linux. They just wanted an alternative. Something that was stable, freely available, and that was good.... And Linux just had all the right attributes at the right time. The BSD projects are certainly ongoing, still, but it's also clear they're still limited to thinking that it's JUST about technology. They don't want to, kind of, build up more of a community and user-friendly issues at all. Thoughts? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 17:18:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72DF240BA for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25030; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:19:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000207181831.04550ac0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:19:32 -0700 To: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <389f6c19.96720656@mail.sentex.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:08 PM 2/7/2000 , Mike Tancsa wrote: >Great looking booth photo at > >http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/lw2000/the-booth.jpg > >One item that somewhat suprised me was SUN being there. What was their >emphasis about, as well as what was the general reaction to them ? Their emphasis: free copies of Solaris. The crowd's response: "Gee! Free copies of Slowlaris! Sorry, but I'm already using Linux...." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 18: 0:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2AA3D90 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Hzxz-0007YR-00; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:01:23 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA39018; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:01:23 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:01:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think the BSD community is small and closed, but friendly and welcoming. However, i must say I have noticed that BSD users tend to be far more traditional and less interested in change. I just had someone send me a private email about FreeBSD vs OpenBSD, and how FreeBSD was changing far too fast and radically, and how much of a mistake BSD's development model was. I also found out this gentleman never ran X, never *wants* to, thinks X is for beginners, thinks BSD is only for fileserving, and measures programs in CPU cycles and keystrokes. I realize BSD, unlike Linux, does not treat users like idiots nor does it try to find the lowest common denominator. But that allows power users to have more control over their installation and OS. functions. Also, i haven't seen any installation programs since 3.2, so i don't know if they have become more user friendly. But i think overall that is one lesson we can learn. If anything good came out of the Windows monopoly it was this: computers CAN be used by the average person, and then they can grow in knowledge over time. BSD requires more basic skills than Linux to get started, and that isn't so bad. But BSD cannot go on calling itself the 'Power to Serve' OS. That's not what a lot of people want. That's not what Linux users want. They want a solid OS that encourages productivity. -=> jm <=- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 20:29: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2BF4059 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.52]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA232F for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:17:12 -0500 Message-ID: <389F98A2.11D0A424@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:16:35 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Reply-To: giffunip@asme.org Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD References: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > A number of people have stated that Linus disparaged FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. > Here, for the purpose of discussion, iswhat he actually said. At 41:59 in > the video at > http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_play.ram?stream_id=207&stream_type=2&play_htt > p=1&play_Real5=1, Linux has the following exchange with an audience member > who has walked up to the mike to ask a question. > ... Well, there's not much one can expect from the answer: Linus is the wrong person to give opinions on how good or bad the BSD community is. I do think that in an OS the technical issues are more important than the "surrounding community", especially when you never get to really meet in person most of these guys. I wouldn't use any OS just because the developers are good buddies and everyone loves free software: I am looking for quality and for that feeling that I am doing the right thing. That said, the BSD guys I've met are excellent people (the finnest, in my limited opinion). Just my $0.02. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 21:33:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.37]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9319D4141 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from atlanta ([12.78.203.190]) by mtiwmhc02.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <20000208053427.RFAE26879@atlanta> for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 05:34:27 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000207233110.0337dd70@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:03:23 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't think that Torvalds' comments necessarily hit the nail on the head, but I don't think that he exactly pulled them out of his butt either. The development model and community of Linux have tremendous and easily identifiable advantages in the development process. And as with anything, there are disadvantages too. All those eyes and hands reviewing and adding to the codebase make for some of the most rapid, breakneck development the software world has ever seen. It also creates a high amount of noise at times and takes some work to get all the pistons firing at once. That's not necessarily the case with a team like the Core Group, but it may keep some would-be developers from feeling like part of the "club." I often wonder whether or not Torvalds himself ever tried to contribute to the Project (or any other BSD for that matter). If not, I can't really think that his opinion is based on anything but distant observation and hearsay rather than empirical events. Like you, I've had no problems in "fitting in" with the FreeBSD group. (Then again, maybe I'm a more likable guy than Torvalds. ;-) ) But the growth of Linux, regardless of what percentage luck and what percentage of the-time-has-come, has proven to be beneficial to the free/open source community at large. As they say, a high tide causes all ships to rise. I heard of FreeBSD largely because of my investigation into Linux, and I think there are others out there on the list who also had similar experiences. The development model was never a factor for me personally because I had no desire to write code. As far as I'm concerned, if Greenman and Hubbard et al say that it's good enough for them, then by jove it's good enough for me. The simple point is that no one tool works for all jobs. Linux has it's place, the BSDs have their place, Windows has it's place, and so on. Anyone that claims that his tool is the best for everything is either a liar or doesn't really understand his tool very well. (No innuendo was intended here either, but I guess it applies nonetheless.) If FreeBSD is "progressing" too fast for you, move to OpenBSD (or stop upgrading which would probably be simpler). If Linux doesn't run all the hot games you want, install Windows. You make your bed and then lie in it. But given the number of messges to this list that are written with Outlook Express, most people probably already know this. Either way, Linus Torvalds is just one man. He's not the Messiah. But if I really try to imagine all the pressure that goes with being in his position, a position in which every statement of opinion is taken as policy, I have to say that I don't think he's doing such a bad job. Like I said, we all stand to benefit here, so let's all stay focused on the goals. K.-- At 09:01 PM 2/7/00 , you wrote: >I think the BSD community is small and closed, but friendly and >welcoming. However, i must say I have noticed that BSD users tend to >be far more traditional and less interested in change. I just had >someone send me a private email about FreeBSD vs OpenBSD, and how >FreeBSD was changing far too fast and radically, and how much of a >mistake BSD's development model was. I also found out this gentleman >never ran X, never *wants* to, thinks X is for beginners, thinks BSD >is only for fileserving, and measures programs in CPU cycles and >keystrokes. > >I realize BSD, unlike Linux, does not treat users like idiots nor >does it try to find the lowest common denominator. But that allows >power users to have more control over their installation and OS. >functions. Also, i haven't seen any installation programs since 3.2, >so i don't know if they have become more user friendly. But i think >overall that is one lesson we can learn. If anything good came out of >the Windows monopoly it was this: computers CAN be used by the average >person, and then they can grow in knowledge over time. BSD requires >more basic skills than Linux to get started, and that isn't so bad. >But BSD cannot go on calling itself the 'Power to Serve' OS. That's >not what a lot of people want. That's not what Linux users want. >They want a solid OS that encourages productivity. > >-=> jm <=- > >"The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have >burned so very, very brightly." > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 22: 6:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F024152 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qthf3.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.197.227]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA27795; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 01:07:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <389FB33D.7EA7BF00@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 22:10:05 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks Organization: Fair Play, Uninc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD References: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000207233110.0337dd70@mail.threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information wrote: > > I don't think that Torvalds' comments necessarily hit the nail on the head, > but I don't think that he exactly pulled them out of his butt either. > > The development model and community of Linux have tremendous and easily > identifiable advantages in the development process. And as with anything, > there are disadvantages too. All those eyes and hands reviewing and adding > to the codebase make for some of the most rapid, breakneck development the > software world has ever seen. It also creates a high amount of noise at > times and takes some work to get all the pistons firing at once. That's > not necessarily the case with a team like the Core Group, but it may keep > some would-be developers from feeling like part of the "club." This is giving too much credence to the assertions that Linus put forth. Despite much handwaving. Linux is actually much more closed to contributions than Linus indicates. On the other hand FreeBSD has an open and public submission process. Of course anonymous contributors can't just wade in and inject arbitrary code into the system but I have never had a contribution ignored. The reasons for rejection are placed into a publicly accessible repository (the GNATS database) and the opportunity for capricious refusal is simply much less than with Linux (and the other parts of a Linux-based system). Truth is... aside from the core members who actually code these days users and contributors don't really hear that much from them. Their role is more a strategic and guiding one. More like the board of directors of a company I might suggest. Those with commit priviledges might be likened to middle-management. > > I often wonder whether or not Torvalds himself ever tried to contribute to > the Project (or any other BSD for that matter). If not, I can't really > think that his opinion is based on anything but distant observation and > hearsay rather than empirical events. Like you, I've had no problems in > "fitting in" with the FreeBSD group. (Then again, maybe I'm a more likable > guy than Torvalds. ;-) ) My experience too. I find the people using FreeBSD (committers and otherwise) to be a very likeable and competent bunch of people. Even when there are severe differences people aren't censored away. There are times I have deserved that and didn't get it. > > But the growth of Linux, regardless of what percentage luck and what > percentage of the-time-has-come, has proven to be beneficial to the > free/open source community at large. As they say, a high tide causes all > ships to rise. I heard of FreeBSD largely because of my investigation into > Linux, and I think there are others out there on the list who also had > similar experiences. The development model was never a factor for me > personally because I had no desire to write code. As far as I'm concerned, > if Greenman and Hubbard et al say that it's good enough for them, then by > jove it's good enough for me. I agree that Linux has helped FreeBSD in many ways. I also believe the converse :-) What bothers me most is these nebulous assertions of "fact" by Linus in a public forum. The things he says get amplified and distorted until all of a sudden FreeBSD is marginalized by thousands of foaming Linux advocates into a position it doesn't deserve. I sincerely believe Linus should be more careful in his public commentary. > Either way, Linus Torvalds is just one man. He's not the Messiah. But if > I really try to imagine all the pressure that goes with being in his > position, a position in which every statement of opinion is taken as > policy, I have to say that I don't think he's doing such a bad job. Like I > said, we all stand to benefit here, so let's all stay focused on the goals. I'd almost agree except I know some people who literally *do* think he is the Messiah. I have to say I don't think he's doing such a good job. He can do better. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 23: 7:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31154155; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA35051; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:38:13 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:38:12 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. Message-ID: <20000208173812.M32632@freebie.lemis.com> References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 7 February 2000 at 10:04:15 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Jonathan M. Bresler" writes: >> 3. Two booth babes were hired to pose with anyone who wanted a >> picture. > > So who's the third babe on jkh's pictures? The one with the sneakers, > waist-long hair and the latex outfit? > > If you don't know what I mean, compare the following pictures: > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/jkh-and-babe.jpg > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/jkh-and-babes.jpg If you're talking about the one in the first photo, it's Ceren Ercen. You missed her on IRC yesterday. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 23:23:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563B6415C for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qthf3.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.197.227]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA07909; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:24:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <389FC556.C783FCBE@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:27:18 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks Organization: Fair Play, Uninc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> <20000208173812.M32632@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > If you're talking about the one in the first photo, it's Ceren Ercen. > You missed her on IRC yesterday. Hey! What's with that penguin sitting on Jordan's right shoulder in the second picture? :-) -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 23:32:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924573FBF for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from suzy (modem20.masternet.it [194.184.65.30]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05737 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:33:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000208082226.00ad0ba0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 08:31:15 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <20000208173812.M32632@freebie.lemis.com> References: <200002042034.MAA88476@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08/02/00, you wrote: > > So who's the third babe on jkh's pictures? The one with the sneakers, > > waist-long hair and the latex outfit? > > > > If you don't know what I mean, compare the following pictures: > > > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/jkh-and-babe.jpg > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/jkh-and-babes.jpg > >If you're talking about the one in the first photo, it's Ceren Ercen. >You missed her on IRC yesterday. This convention seems very interesting. :-) I propose the same choreography for the next FreeBSDCon. I think it can increase enormously the number of participants... >Hey! What's with that penguin sitting on Jordan's right shoulder in the >second picture? Forget the penguin, forget jhk, look only at the devils :-) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 7 23:34:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (www.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E4C416E for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA28383; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:18:37 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA43143; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 01:34:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 01:34:59 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <389FC556.C783FCBE@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > If you're talking about the one in the first photo, it's Ceren Ercen. > > You missed her on IRC yesterday. > > Hey! What's with that penguin sitting on Jordan's right shoulder in the > second picture? Must be a photo-editing flaw... --- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 6: 6:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA334204 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27202; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:07:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:07:09 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000208082226.00ad0ba0@194.184.65.4> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > This convention seems very interesting. :-) > I propose the same choreography for the next FreeBSDCon. > I think it can increase enormously the number of participants... > Actually, I think that we would have been just as attractive without the Booth Babe types. However, there are certain conferences this probably should be done for, Comdex, etc. However, USENIX and BSDCon , etc, do *not* need the Booth Babes, as FreeBSD and BSD in general stands on its own. As the little throngs of young NYLUG members told me "We don;t care about BSD, we just want our pictures taken with *them*", which tells me it really didn't exactly have the desired effects. Did it attract people to near the booth? Yes. Did they stick around to ask questions? No. HOWEVER, giving out CD's did cause people to come talk to us. I know for a fact Marc was just not handing them over, but asking them if they planned on installing it, etc. Still people know who we are now, if anything =) > > Forget the penguin, forget jhk, look only at the devils :-) > For the last time , its Daemon! (paraphrased from UserFriendly) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 7:23:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 578FD424B for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 07:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:19:59 -0500 Message-ID: <38A035F1.CC2DEFEF@cstone.net> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 10:27:45 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch wrote: > As the little throngs of young NYLUG members told me "We don;t > care about BSD, we just want our pictures taken with *them*", which tells > me it really didn't exactly have the desired effects. Did it attract > people to near the booth? Yes. Did they stick around to ask questions? No. I've gone to a number of cons for role-playing games, working for various companies, and none of them have had "booth babes", despite the big computer companies doing it at places like GenCon. I particularly liked the reason Pinnacle Entertainment Group said that they didn't hire them... "Do they bring more people to the booth? Yes, but we pack it without them. Are people more likely to buy stuff? No, they just get their picture taken, block traffic, and keep our customers out. Are people more likely to buy if there's an attractive, approachable, and KNOWLEDGABLE woman working the cashier? Yes." Of course, that's paraphrased. :-) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 "If you are going to say IMHO, you could at least -pretend- to be humble." - Donald Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 8: 1: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BBA423F for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01749; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:01:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000208085917.04599a20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:01:46 -0700 To: Sean Michael Whipkey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. In-Reply-To: <38A035F1.CC2DEFEF@cstone.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:27 AM 2/8/2000 , Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: >I've gone to a number of cons for role-playing games, working for >various companies, and none of them have had "booth babes", despite the >big computer companies doing it at places like GenCon. Depends on the convention. What's more, it's not just the COMPANIES that do it; a number of attendees are known to dress up on their own. I've seen a number of very accurate Lara Crofts at gaming conventions, for example. All in good fun, of course. It's NEAT to dress up as a fantasy character. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 8:27:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 613F64249 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:23:58 -0500 Message-ID: <38A044F2.5C42A893@cstone.net> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 11:31:46 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. References: <4.2.2.20000208085917.04599a20@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Depends on the convention. What's more, it's not just the COMPANIES > that do it; a number of attendees are known to dress up on their own. > I've seen a number of very accurate Lara Crofts at gaming conventions, > for example. All in good fun, of course. It's NEAT to dress up as a > fantasy character. I have no problem with that; it's cool to see Dawn fans all trussed up at DragonCon like her...:-) I just don't care for booth babes, much, unless they're actually INVOLVED with the product (like the ones at the Troma Films booth at DragonCon). BTW, I'm doing a number of panels at DragonCon in Atlanta this summer for the EFGA. You can find more information on DragonCon at http://www.dragoncon.org/ If anybody's interested in being on a panel, contact me for more info. Thanks, SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 "If you are going to say IMHO, you could at least -pretend- to be humble." - Donald Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 9:14:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mvfx.com (mvfx-gw.mvfx.com [207.211.10.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF2AB4083 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:14:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobiledan.mvfx.com (mobiledan.mvfx.com [10.62.6.38]) by mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12357 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:14:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@mobiledan.mvfx.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by mobiledan.mvfx.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA25010 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:15:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:15:09 -0800 From: Dan Piponi To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000208091509.A24980@mobiledan.mvfx.com> References: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000207233110.0337dd70@mail.threespace.com> <389FB33D.7EA7BF00@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <389FB33D.7EA7BF00@mindspring.com>; from jhix@mindspring.com on Mon, Feb 07, 2000 at 10:10:05PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE Organization: can be a good thing Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well there's one thing I'll say about both Linux and FreeBSD users...they're *very* bitchy! :-) -- Dan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 10:22: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E32A4594 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03544; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:20:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000208111617.045e2730@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 11:17:32 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:01 PM 2/7/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >I think the BSD community is small and closed, but friendly and >welcoming. I'm not so sure it's always that friendly and welcoming. I was basically flamed off of the freebsd-advocacy list simply because I expressed my (widely held!) opinion that BSD was poorly promoted. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 11:53:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028633EAB for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17778; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:43:11 GMT (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA53995; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:44:34 GMT (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:44:34 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: reading this list and staying stable Message-ID: <20000208174434.A51073@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 12:02:38AM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 12:02:38AM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I recently received this in response to my post. Some names have been > changed to protect the innocent. Any thoughts? [ Rest of quote is from whoever mailed you ] > if it make any difference .. i've been following freebsd via > the -release cdroms for over 4 years now. i started with ver > 2.0.5-release and would upgrade every time a new -release made I'm not quite the same. I've been with FreeBSD since 2.0, and I tend to upgrade as and when I need to. My main desktop machine runs 3-stable, my laptop runs 3.2PAO (although I might run current on it after talking with a few people), and a couple of machines I use at other (very) inaccessible locations are 2.2.x vintage. Why upgrade every time there's a new release? Unless there's compelling functionality you want, like a new driver, you're not forced to upgrade immediately. The ports tree (bar a few odd ends here and there) will still work; a 3.3 machine won't suddenly stop working after 3.4 was released. sendmail isn't going to stop talking to 2.x machines. This is not the Microsoft world were new releases mean new, and incompatible protocols, and you have to keep up to interoperate. > its been ok, untill recently when for some strange reason the > american contingent has decided freebsd needs to be release > every five minutes and the bug testing of the prelease versions > has been shoddy to say the least. Every 4 to 5 months would be more accurate. And as for bug testing, how much have you (i.e., the person that sent the e-mail) done? I freely confess, I do very little testing of releases. I need my machines to work, because they're critical to the success of my company. If I'm going to upgrade a machine I set aside a large block of time to do it, and I check the -stable mailing list for at least a week before, to make sure that I'm not planning an upgrade when -stable is in a (very rare) period of instability. So I don't run bleeding edge code, which makes it difficult to contribute meaningful bug reports back. > but i have also started to serioulsy concider moving over to > openbsd, the quieter, more measured pace of life is more > predictable and things happen in an orderly manner .. not as it > seems to be on freebsd where the coffee'd up superexitable > juveniles seem to be getting release, for the sake of number > bumping, happy. Again, you don't have to run the latest and greatest codebase all the time. Indeed, if you're doing anything mission critical I'd recommend against it. Just because a new release is out there you don't have to use it. N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis shoe stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 23: 9:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D6F4768; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00240; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:03:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAICa4ra; Tue Feb 8 18:03:43 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA13572; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:03:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002090103.SAA13572@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:03:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), johnmpurser@home.com, jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ('Jonathon McKitrick'), jasone@canonware.com ('Jason Evans'), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at Feb 04, 2000 04:56:03 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I interviewd and was offered a job there around the same time I > > did the same at Whistle. They wanted me to work on the NT port, > > and had a team of very competant (IMO) people assembled to do > > the job. I expect that, unless they got hit by busses, that > > the job is done. > > > > I was very impressed with the architecture and the service time > > claims for the AT&T installation of the software. > > > > In any case, the last time I talked with them, they were working > > on a FreeBSD version, so don't disparage them too harshly. > > Your are aware that they have several mail products right? > > Intermail is the one Worldnet is using. Post.Office is their low end > product. Yes, though other people in this thread may not realize that, I think. I am very meticulous in researching the companies I consider working for or with. They were actually near the top of my list as having opportunity to work on important technology. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 23:21:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31E844C2; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA28984; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:19:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAxwaGA4; Tue Feb 8 18:19:08 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA14090; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:19:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002090119.SAA14090@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. To: jim@luna.cdrom.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 01:19:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nrahlstr@winternet.com (Nathan Ahlstrom), jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000204145840.A46645@luna.cdrom.com> from "Jim Mock" at Feb 04, 2000 02:58:41 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Whoa nice! Anyone have some pictures of that online?! > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabes-and-dustpuppy.jpg > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jkh/lw2000/daemonbabettes.jpg One of them is Mike Smith's friend who looks so damn much like my baby sister that it threw me for a loop the first time I saw her. I may have to print just her part of the picture and send it to my brother in law John so that he can scandalize my sister with it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 23:32:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8183D479B for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA41993; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:57:00 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:57:00 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000209115700.H41453@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000208111617.045e2730@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000208111617.045e2730@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 8 February 2000 at 11:17:32 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:01 PM 2/7/2000 , Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >> I think the BSD community is small and closed, but friendly and >> welcoming. > > I'm not so sure it's always that friendly and welcoming. I was > basically flamed off of the freebsd-advocacy list simply because I > expressed my (widely held!) opinion that BSD was poorly promoted. My recollection is that the real issue was more that we were trying to advocate FreeBSD, not put down the GPL. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 23:33:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D93C4465 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:30:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA42015; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:59:53 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:59:53 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000209115952.I41453@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Monday, 7 February 2000 at 18:16:32 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > A number of people have stated that Linus disparaged FreeBSD at > LinuxWorld. Here, for the purpose of discussion, iswhat he actually > said. At 41:59 in the video at > http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_play.ram?stream_id=207&stream_type=2&play_http=1&play_Real5=1, > Linux has the following exchange with an audience member who has > walked up to the mike to ask a question. > > Audience member: When I first heard of Linux, I thought it was, well, "This > is just another FreeBSD." But obviously, Linux has far overshadowed > FreeBSD, and FreeBSD had, like, a lot of really good people working on it. > What have you guys learned from FreeBSD? Why have you guys done so much better? > > Linus: I think that the one thing you should always remember is that it's > not just all about technology. Technology is important; what's equally > important is -- is just the kind of community you build up around it. And > it happened -- probably mostly by mistake, certainly by luck, not by > planning -- that the Linux community was just so much more vibrant, so much > friendlier, so much more open than the BSD communities used to be. And > that, I think, was the deciding factor. It was timing; there was luck; I > think what happened was that there was a real need for SOMETHING like > Linux. And people didn't necessarily want it to be Linux. They just wanted > an alternative. Something that was stable, freely available, and that was > good.... And Linux just had all the right attributes at the right time. The > BSD projects are certainly ongoing, still, but it's also clear they're > still limited to thinking that it's JUST about technology. They don't want > to, kind of, build up more of a community and user-friendly issues at all. > > Thoughts? I accept that. He doesn't have to be right, but what he's describing is the way he sees it, and I don't think he's lying. Remember also that this response was, at best, only partially prepared. If we want to get something out of this statement, we should try to understand his viewpoint and decide whether it means we should change in some way. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 8 23:36:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290224283 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08547; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:29:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000208182726.04122830@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:28:55 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000209115700.H41453@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000208111617.045e2730@localhost> <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> <4.2.2.20000208111617.045e2730@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:27 PM 2/8/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >My recollection is that the real issue was more that we were trying to >advocate FreeBSD, not put down the GPL. No, that was a different discussion. However, the GPL very much DOES deserve to be "put down." It's a malicious scam designed to hurt programmers' livelihoods and sabotage businesses. An important positive selling point for BSD UNIX is that it is not licensed under the GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 0:29:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD61145C6 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA11265; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:04:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzSaW8v; Tue Feb 8 19:03:57 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA15972; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:04:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002090204.TAA15972@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:04:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000207181831.04550ac0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 07, 2000 06:19:32 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >One item that somewhat suprised me was SUN being there. What was their > >emphasis about, as well as what was the general reaction to them ? > > Their emphasis: free copies of Solaris. > > The crowd's response: "Gee! Free copies of Slowlaris! Sorry, but I'm > already using Linux...." The crowd was full of morons. How else are you supposed to run Solaris binary compatability on Linux? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 1: 9:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD61145C6 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:04:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA11265; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:04:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzSaW8v; Tue Feb 8 19:03:57 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA15972; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:04:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002090204.TAA15972@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD at LinuxWorld. To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:04:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000207181831.04550ac0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 07, 2000 06:19:32 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >One item that somewhat suprised me was SUN being there. What was their > >emphasis about, as well as what was the general reaction to them ? > > Their emphasis: free copies of Solaris. > > The crowd's response: "Gee! Free copies of Slowlaris! Sorry, but I'm > already using Linux...." The crowd was full of morons. How else are you supposed to run Solaris binary compatability on Linux? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 2:16:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997F7528D for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 02:04:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12ITvu-0008SR-00; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:01:14 +0200 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:01:14 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000209120114.A31865@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000208111617.045e2730@localhost> <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> <20000209115700.H41453@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000208182726.04122830@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000208182726.04122830@localhost> Organization: Rhodes University Computer Users' Society X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue 2000-02-08 (18:28), Brett Glass wrote: > No, that was a different discussion. However, the GPL very much DOES > deserve to be "put down." It's a malicious scam designed to hurt > programmers' livelihoods and sabotage businesses. An important positive > selling point for BSD UNIX is that it is not licensed under the GPL. I propose we have two Bretts then. The anti-GPL one who we can flame for causing bad PR amongst the Linux (and other) people, and the pro-BSD one who we can agree with, and who can provide us with some good ideas and tactics to improve our PR through positive means, not through negative (ie, attacking others) means. Chainsaw, anyone? Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 4:51:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8C43E5D for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 04:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from earthlink.net (ip178.cambridge2.ma.pub-ip.psi.net [38.32.112.178]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA22957 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 04:50:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38A1622E.111D6B17@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 07:48:46 -0500 From: Alan Burnett X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: new to BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a simple IBM PC (Aptiva E 245): am I able to mount BSD on this platform? It won't take Linux! Thanks, Alan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 5:55:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F033E00; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 05:55:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04956; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:54:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:54:40 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Eclipse Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org anyone see this? http://www.bell-labs.com/project/eclipse/release/ -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 6:55:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866073F7C; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 06:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 73D4218E4; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:54:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:54:31 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Eclipse Message-ID: <20000209095430.A410@argon.blackdawn.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from lynch@bsd.unix.sh on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 08:54:40AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 08:54:40AM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > anyone see this? > > http://www.bell-labs.com/project/eclipse/release/ !@#$%$^!@ Somebody branched off us?? :-) Cool, I'm gonna have to have a look at their work. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 7: 4:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463D13DC9; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:59:39 -0500 Message-ID: <38A182B9.73171582@cstone.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 10:07:37 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Eclipse References: <20000209095430.A410@argon.blackdawn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 08:54:40AM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > > anyone see this? > > > > http://www.bell-labs.com/project/eclipse/release/ > > !@#$%$^!@ > > Somebody branched off us?? :-) > > Cool, I'm gonna have to have a look at their work. They were at FreeBSDCon with a booth. I knew I recognized that name from somewhere...:-) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 "If you are going to say IMHO, you could at least -pretend- to be humble." - Donald Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 7: 8:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7676A3F4A; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA12980; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:07:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAoSayuz; Wed Feb 9 08:07:22 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA08685; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:07:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002091507.IAA08685@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Eclipse To: andrews@technologist.com (Will Andrews) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:07:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lynch@bsd.unix.sh (Pat Lynch), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000209095430.A410@argon.blackdawn.com> from "Will Andrews" at Feb 09, 2000 09:54:31 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 08:54:40AM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > > anyone see this? > > > > http://www.bell-labs.com/project/eclipse/release/ > > !@#$%$^!@ > > Somebody branched off us?? :-) > > Cool, I'm gonna have to have a look at their work. Look at MacOS X while you are at it, then, since they are also FreeBSD drived. I won't mention the U of U stuff, since it's old news. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 7:21: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9B23F39 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:20:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05579; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:20:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:20:27 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Alan Burnett Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new to BSD In-Reply-To: <38A1622E.111D6B17@earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Weird, I was at IBM a few years ago, in the Aptiva division...(doing Lotus Notes support) and I had linux *and* FreeBSD on aptivas. Now I understand things might have changed, but when did the aptiva become anythign but a pretty standard PC? -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Alan Burnett wrote: > I have a simple IBM PC (Aptiva E 245): am I able to mount BSD on this > platform? > It won't take Linux! > Thanks, > Alan > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 7:23: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C963F82; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05602; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:22:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Will Andrews Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Eclipse In-Reply-To: <20000209095430.A410@argon.blackdawn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Will Andrews wrote: > > Somebody branched off us?? :-) > > Cool, I'm gonna have to have a look at their work. > its essentially a patch to the kernel, libkvm, and userland stuff that uses libkvm. The modifications are not BSDL'd and is rather restrictive. Still very cool. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 7:43:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (mail.omaha.com [63.64.101.17]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 000E8404E for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from omaha.com ([63.64.101.10]) by mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-55573U2500L250S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:11:54 -0600 Message-ID: <38A18C0F.9D482E8B@omaha.com> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:47:27 -0600 From: Jim X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: MSNBC article Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp Anyone see this article? They have this key line: ""There have been numerous copies of the thing floating around," Cooper said. In addition to sending routers into a spiral that eventually causes complete service disruption, the attack exposed new vulnerabilities in the FreeBSD operating system. That's the software Yahoo uses to run its site." Comments? Jim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 7:43:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60593D5B for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA16071; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:43:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA03ayqF; Wed Feb 9 08:42:49 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA09705; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:42:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002091542.IAA09705@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: new to BSD To: lynch@bsd.unix.sh (Pat Lynch) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:42:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: alanpat214@earthlink.net (Alan Burnett), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Pat Lynch" at Feb 09, 2000 10:20:27 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Weird, I was at IBM a few years ago, in the Aptiva division...(doing Lotus > Notes support) and I had linux *and* FreeBSD on aptivas. Now I understand > things might have changed, but when did the aptiva become anythign but a > pretty standard PC? Contact Doug Ambrisko (ambrisko@whistle.com). He has been working on IBM platform certification for use with FreeBSD. Not that this does any good, advocacy-wise, without a culturally neutral logo for IBM to put on the boxes, mind you. He should be willing to release his current list of models for which he has determined that FreeBSD has drivers for all the hardware that comes with the stock unit, given a bit of prodding, and you can clean it up for the FreeBSD.org hardware compatability page. Alternately, you could go to the hardware compatability page linked off of freebsd.org, and see if your hardware is already listed there, which it might very well be. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8: 0:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385344015 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15204; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:57:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000209084501.040ad6e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 08:57:40 -0700 To: Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Cc: Greg Lehey , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000209120114.A31865@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.2.2.20000208182726.04122830@localhost> <4.2.2.20000208111617.045e2730@localhost> <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> <20000209115700.H41453@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000208182726.04122830@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:01 AM 2/9/2000 , Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >I propose we have two Bretts then. The anti-GPL one who we can >flame for causing bad PR amongst the Linux (and other) people, and >the pro-BSD one who we can agree with, and who can provide us with >some good ideas and tactics to improve our PR through positive >means, not through negative (ie, attacking others) means. > >Chainsaw, anyone? Ouch! Suddenly, I have a splitting headache. ;-) Seriously, being pro-BSD and opposing the GPL go hand in hand. When one points out the problems of the GPL, one is not "attacking others;" rather, one is helping others by exposing a deceitful and malicious agenda. That's a VERY positive thing. Using or supporting the GPL, on the other hand, IS attacking others, since the GPL itself is intended to hurt people. One of the memetic strengths of the Linux community and its leaders is that they have not only things that they promote but things that they firmly oppose. Such causes draw people together. One thing I see in the BSD community which hobbles its effectiveness is that some people in it refuse to take a stand, even against something like the GPL which is clearly hurtful and malicious. Perhaps this is what Linus was really saying. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8: 1:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E633D5B for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05953; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:00:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:00:45 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Terry Lambert Cc: Alan Burnett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new to BSD In-Reply-To: <200002091542.IAA09705@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Contact Doug Ambrisko (ambrisko@whistle.com). He has been > working on IBM platform certification for use with FreeBSD. > Not that this does any good, advocacy-wise, without a > culturally neutral logo for IBM to put on the boxes, mind you. > Terry, what kind of "culturally neutral" logo does this refer to, not knowing much about business apsects of things, but sort of like a "FreeBSD Certified" stamp? if this is needed, I am currently working on one piece of "branding" involving the Daemon, that I will be sending to Kirk as soon as I'm done with it for his approval, what kind of thing would be needed for this specific instance? I think I asked this once before, but it got lost in other conversations. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8: 2:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14B93FEA for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15267; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:01:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000209090017.04172ae0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:01:41 -0700 To: Jim , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: MSNBC article In-Reply-To: <38A18C0F.9D482E8B@omaha.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've already responded, noting that FreeBSD held up better than Linux and that the person who made the Bugtraq posting was bashing FreeBSD. More responses might help. (There are two mail links on the page.) --Brett At 08:47 AM 2/9/2000 , Jim wrote: >http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp > >Anyone see this article? They have this key line: > >""There have been numerous copies of the thing floating around," Cooper >said. In addition to sending routers into a spiral that eventually >causes >complete service disruption, the attack exposed new vulnerabilities in >the >FreeBSD operating system. > >That's the software Yahoo uses to run its site." > > >Comments? > >Jim > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8: 7:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70633FE7 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:07:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA55227; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:04:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:04:28 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20000209120114.A31865@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > I propose we have two Bretts then. We do! :-) See www.daemonnews.com for my little contribution - can't program worth a darn (unless I'm doing my research programming in fortran) so I helped start DN. BTW, I personally don't want to be chopped into 2 by a chainsaw to make 3 Bretts. :-) Brett Editor in Chief - DaemonNews ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8:10:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46363F96 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00236; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:09:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMFa4za; Wed Feb 9 09:09:21 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA10587; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:09:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002091609.JAA10587@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: new to BSD To: lynch@bsd.unix.sh (Pat Lynch) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:09:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), alanpat214@earthlink.net (Alan Burnett), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Pat Lynch" at Feb 09, 2000 11:00:45 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Contact Doug Ambrisko (ambrisko@whistle.com). He has been > > working on IBM platform certification for use with FreeBSD. > > Not that this does any good, advocacy-wise, without a > > culturally neutral logo for IBM to put on the boxes, mind you. > > Terry, > what kind of "culturally neutral" logo does this refer to, not > knowing much about business apsects of things, but sort of like a > "FreeBSD Certified" stamp? > > if this is needed, I am currently working on one piece of > "branding" involving the Daemon, that I will be sending to Kirk as > soon as I'm done with it for his approval, what kind of thing would > be needed for this specific instance? > > I think I asked this once before, but it got lost in other > conversations. A monochrome text-only logo with the requisite (R) symbol and legal release from Walnut Creek CDROM, the holders of the trademark "FreeBSD". The daemon is right out; even if he were politically correct everywhere as "non-satanic" (esp. in Central and South America, with a high population of traditional Catholics)... he has only three fingers, being a US cartoon character, and is therefore unacceptable in Japan as having potential links to the Yakuza, where cutting off a finger is a pledge of loyalty and/or an indication of repentance. Even ignoring these links, "deformity", such as polydactylism and/or missing parts is often taken as a sign of just retribution for a wrong (karma, etc.). One of the things that Whistle had to do for NTT to be able to sell InterJets was to make the agents look like normal, undeformed humans, instead of cute US style cartoon characters. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8:23:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED074029 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B05BD755B; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:26:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCDD1D8A for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:26:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:26:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Boot Mangler Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've checked the FAQ and the Handbook, but can't find anything direct, and the archives are down, so can someone point me at how I extract the bootblock from my FreeBSD partition so I can add it to NT's Boot Mangler? Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8:27:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E273440C5 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15694; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:27:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000209092520.041d9930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:26:57 -0700 To: Pat Lynch , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: new to BSD Cc: Alan Burnett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200002091542.IAA09705@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:00 AM 2/9/2000 , Pat Lynch wrote: >Terry, > what kind of "culturally neutral" logo does this refer to, not >knowing much about business apsects of things, but sort of like a "FreeBSD >Certified" stamp? I'm not sure, but my guess is that he means something without the daemon. You can't sell ANYTHING with such a label -- even hot sauce! -- in Islamic countries. In fact, for those countries you're pretty much limited to geometric patterns and letters. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8:32: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A69742FC for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:32:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15723; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:29:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000209092747.04091c30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:28:57 -0700 To: Brett Taylor , Neil Blakey-Milner From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Cc: Greg Lehey , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000209120114.A31865@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:04 AM 2/9/2000 , Brett Taylor wrote: >BTW, I personally don't want to be chopped into 2 by a chainsaw to make 3 >Bretts. :-) And then we'd all start carrying water for BSD UNIX. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8:46: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EA84449 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:45:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06290; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:42:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:42:25 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , Alan Burnett , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new to BSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000209092520.041d9930@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org that works for me, thats why I asked. __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:00 AM 2/9/2000 , Pat Lynch wrote: > > >Terry, > > what kind of "culturally neutral" logo does this refer to, not > >knowing much about business apsects of things, but sort of like a "FreeBSD > >Certified" stamp? > > I'm not sure, but my guess is that he means something without the daemon. > You can't sell ANYTHING with such a label -- even hot sauce! -- in Islamic > countries. In fact, for those countries you're pretty much limited to > geometric patterns and letters. > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 8:59:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630313E5D for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24399; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:45:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Jim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MSNBC article References: <38A18C0F.9D482E8B@omaha.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Feb 2000 17:45:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jim's message of "Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:47:27 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jim writes: > http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp > [...] > Comments? It's not a vulnerability, it's a DoS. A little worse than a simple flooder, but not much. MSNBC's explanation of how it works is incorrect, too - what confuses the router is the destination address on the ACK packet (since the packet it ACKs has a random source address). There is no argument between the router and the server about what's happening. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 9:16:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66505404A; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA08777; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:43:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAbXa4Eq; Wed Feb 9 09:42:36 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11608; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:42:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002091642.JAA11608@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: @home.com's e-mail problems To: aernoudt@wanadoo.nl (AB) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:42:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <389BD95E.C50E6A98@wanadoo.nl> from "AB" at Feb 05, 2000 08:03:42 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > [cut] [cut] > > > I was very impressed with the architecture and the service time > > claims for the AT&T installation of the software. > > When I still worked for IBM, we had a home office connection 'powered' > by AT&t. > I can not recall having such a lousy service time: at least twice a week > for at least 2 to 4 hours per outage !! AT&T network service does not > appeal very much to me, so I think that if they also provide the @home > e-mail stuff it does not come as a surprise to me it has lots of > problems. This is a different service, entirely. This is the AT&T ISP service, which has nothing to do with the mail service, except that it can act as an access point (one I would not use myself). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 10:29:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A055C4106 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1897 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2000 18:16:02 -0000 Received: from userai62.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.133.92) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2000 18:16:02 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01072; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:15:26 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:15:26 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000209181526.A461@marder-1> References: <4.2.2.20000208111617.045e2730@localhost> <4.2.2.20000207163850.00cf03c0@localhost> <20000209115700.H41453@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.2.20000208182726.04122830@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000208182726.04122830@localhost> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 08, 2000 at 06:28:55PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:27 PM 2/8/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > > >My recollection is that the real issue was more that we were trying to > >advocate FreeBSD, not put down the GPL. > > No, that was a different discussion. However, the GPL very much DOES > deserve to be "put down." It's a malicious scam designed to hurt > programmers' livelihoods and sabotage businesses. An important positive > selling point for BSD UNIX is that it is not licensed under the GPL. > Groan, come on guys, FFS don't start this again, *please*! > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 10:59:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6D94144 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06962; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:26:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:26:00 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Jim , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MSNBC article Message-ID: <20000209112600.X17536@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <38A18C0F.9D482E8B@omaha.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@flood.ping.uio.no on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 05:45:39PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000209 09:38] wrote: > Jim writes: > > http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp > > [...] > > Comments? > > It's not a vulnerability, it's a DoS. A little worse than a simple > flooder, but not much. MSNBC's explanation of how it works is > incorrect, too - what confuses the router is the destination address > on the ACK packet (since the packet it ACKs has a random source > address). There is no argument between the router and the server about > what's happening. Can you guys check the story again? I get pushed to: http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp I can't find 'BSD' or 'cooper' anywhere on the page, and hints? :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 11: 0:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.thuntek.net (mail2.thuntek.net [206.206.98.15]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E7E4188; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-040.thuntek.net [207.66.52.40]) by mail2.thuntek.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA79512; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:59:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Message-ID: <38A1B915.BC618506@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 11:59:33 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Silver Lynx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Eclipse References: <20000209095430.A410@argon.blackdawn.com> <38A182B9.73171582@cstone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > > Will Andrews wrote: > > > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 08:54:40AM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > > > anyone see this? > > > > > > http://www.bell-labs.com/project/eclipse/release/ > > > > !@#$%$^!@ > > > > Somebody branched off us?? :-) > > > > Cool, I'm gonna have to have a look at their work. > > They were at FreeBSDCon with a booth. I knew I recognized that name > from somewhere...:-) > They also had a good presentation on it, with a very knowledgable lady developer doing the talking. However, when I asked her about Eclipse's performance with larger task sets than just 2 or 3, she said they hadn't tested any finer granularity of prosesses. It was pretty clear from her answer that the overhead goes up rapidly as the process count you are trying to guarantee service to does. I would think this would be a bucket of cold water to anybody envisioning a real QoS system that's useful on real-world systems. Of course, thank you Gordon Moore... ;-) -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Silver-Lynx.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 11:17:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2A64226 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:17:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07554; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:43:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:43:25 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Jonathan H. Ballard" Cc: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.3 to 3.4 changes in Cplusplus affect FreeBSD source? Message-ID: <20000209114324.A17536@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <38A1966C.21C8199C@softcom.net> <20000209190510.H11698@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> <38A1BC90.BEFAB29E@softcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38A1BC90.BEFAB29E@softcom.net>; from cybertronix@softcom.net on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 11:14:24AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Jonathan H. Ballard [000209 11:35] wrote: > Szilveszter Adam wrote: > > > > Hi! > > Aloha Aren't you the same guy that was posting to the egcs lists a few months ago? I could swear I remeber that hostname. (usa.net). -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 11:52:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sm0101.promedia.net (sm0101.promedia.net [208.131.40.4]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D254E4311 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from softcom.net (ppp-208-171-196-79.01.promedia.net [208.171.196.79]) by sm0101.promedia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12694; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:55:08 -0800 Message-ID: <38A1C701.87244C38@softcom.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 11:58:57 -0800 From: "Jonathan H. Ballard" Organization: Cybertronix X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.3 to 3.4 changes in Cplusplus affect FreeBSD source? References: <38A1966C.21C8199C@softcom.net> <20000209190510.H11698@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> <38A1BC90.BEFAB29E@softcom.net> <20000209114324.A17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * Jonathan H. Ballard [000209 11:35] wrote: > > Szilveszter Adam wrote: > > > > > > Hi! > > > > Aloha > > Aren't you the same guy that was posting to the egcs lists a few months > ago? I could swear I remeber that hostname. (usa.net). > > -Alfred no -- cybertronix@softcom.net jon.ballard@usa.net http://www.softcom.net/users/cybertronix Save a Tree ~ Know how Too 8D CopyRight Ballard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 12:37:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 555923F08 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9682 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2000 20:36:55 -0000 Received: from useraq33.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.93) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 9 Feb 2000 20:36:55 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01129; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:23:24 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:23:24 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Boot Mangler Message-ID: <20000209182323.B461@marder-1> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 08:26:19AM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > I've checked the FAQ and the Handbook, but can't find anything direct, and > the archives are down, so can someone point me at how I extract the > bootblock from my FreeBSD partition so I can add it to NT's Boot Mangler? > http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/admin.html#AEN1648 tells you all you need to know. If you're running 3.x you can just copy files from /boot, no need to extract the boot blocks. HTH > Jamie Bowden > > -- > > "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, > Microsoft is different from any other software company..." > Kenneth G. Cavness > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 13:51: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.175]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110D142C7; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1.orange-spotted-sleeper-goby.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.43.1] helo=lungfish.freeserve.co.uk) by cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 12Iezu-0003ku-00; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 21:50:06 +0000 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.freeserve.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02117; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:49:56 GMT (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20000209214956.43330@lungfish.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:49:56 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Will Andrews , Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Eclipse References: <20000209095430.A410@argon.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <20000209095430.A410@argon.blackdawn.com>; from Will Andrews on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 09:54:31AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 09:54:31AM -0500, Will Andrews wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 08:54:40AM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > > anyone see this? > > > > http://www.bell-labs.com/project/eclipse/release/ > > !@#$%$^!@ > > Somebody branched off us?? :-) No-one branched, it's a set of patches on 3.4-RELEASE. Check out the licence though: *not* BSD and not particularly free. You're licenced to install the stuff on one machine only, can only distribute mods/derived works to other licencees, and Lucent lay claim to a lot of rights over any such derived works -- including the right to sell it if they so choose. Nice to see something like this on BSD though. There are various Linux add-ons that do similar things, that we've been evaluating for a project. I know *I'd* find it cool to use a BSD-derived platform instead. Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" s.mitchell@computer.org | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 14:18:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EED23E37 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.55]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA47F7; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:17:28 -0500 Message-ID: <38A1E761.6188386E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:17:05 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Reply-To: giffunip@asme.org Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new to BSD References: <200002091609.JAA10587@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > ... > > The daemon is right out; even if he were politically correct > everywhere as "non-satanic" (esp. in Central and South America, > with a high population of traditional Catholics)... REALLY ?? I'll have to talk to the Colombian FreeBSD users groups about those evil T-shirts with Chuck in them :-). cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 15: 2:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959034173 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from woodstock.monkey.net (narn-2-171.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.109]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.1) id QAA10620; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:59:48 -0600 Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woodstock.monkey.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D1E9B; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:04:36 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/16/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Greg Lehey , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Feb 2000 08:57:40 MST." <4.2.2.20000209084501.040ad6e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:04:36 -0600 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <20000209230436.A5D1E9B@woodstock.monkey.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.2.2.20000209084501.040ad6e0@localhost>, Brett Glass wrote: } At 03:01 AM 2/9/2000 , Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: } } >I propose we have two Bretts then. The anti-GPL one who we can } >flame for causing bad PR amongst the Linux (and other) people, and } >the pro-BSD one who we can agree with, and who can provide us with } >some good ideas and tactics to improve our PR through positive } >means, not through negative (ie, attacking others) means. } > } >Chainsaw, anyone? } } Ouch! Suddenly, I have a splitting headache. ;-) } } Seriously, being pro-BSD and opposing the GPL go hand in hand. When Only if one is pro-BSD (and anti-GPL) for exactly the same reasons you are. For someone who complains so loudly about others not respecting his views, you seem to have a singular ability to assume that anyone who agrees with any particular position you advocate does so for exactly (and only) the reasoning which led you to your position, and if they express otherwise, they're "obviously" just misleading themselves. } one points out the problems of the GPL, one is not "attacking } others;" rather, one is helping others by exposing a deceitful and } malicious agenda. That's a VERY positive thing. Funny how your positives so often couch themselves in vehement negativity. } Using or supporting the GPL, on the other hand, IS attacking others, } since the GPL itself is intended to hurt people. You've taken your conclusion as given, and are arguing back from that point. Not everyone agrees with your conclusion, so why not stop beating them over the head in reverse and try to convince them of your reasoning? Hint: using terms like "obviously", or emotionally charged phrases like "deceitful" and "malicious" are unlikely to win you many converts, regardless of how accurate they may be. } One of the memetic strengths of the Linux community and its leaders } is that they have not only things that they promote but things that } they firmly oppose. Such causes draw people together. One thing I see } in the BSD community which hobbles its effectiveness is that some people } in it refuse to take a stand, even against something like the GPL which } is clearly hurtful and malicious. Perhaps this is what Linus was really } saying. Because it is "clear" to you does not mean that everyone else who has anything to do with *BSD agrees. I wish you would get that through your head. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 16:17:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9E73EAC for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21688; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:16:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000209165815.03e22a70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:16:13 -0700 To: Jon Hamilton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000209230436.A5D1E9B@woodstock.monkey.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:04 PM 2/9/2000 , Jon Hamilton wrote: >} Seriously, being pro-BSD and opposing the GPL go hand in hand. > >Only if one is pro-BSD (and anti-GPL) for exactly the same reasons you are. I think we may just have to disagree on this. For me, and for many others, the very ESSENCE of BSD is the sort of programmer-friendly, supportive sharing that the GPL is intended to sabotage. Many of the best things that BSD has produced -- it can even be credited for the widespread success of the Internet itself -- would never have come to be if it were licensed under the GPL. >} When one points out the problems of the GPL, one is not "attacking >} others;" rather, one is helping others by exposing a deceitful and >} malicious agenda. That's a VERY positive thing. > >Funny how your positives so often couch themselves in vehement negativity. In life, it's often that way. For example, I think it's very positive to be free of pain, hunger, violent crime, etc. I'll fully admit that I am negative about it when people behave unethically or hurt one another needlessly. And I think is a very positive trait. >} Using or supporting the GPL, on the other hand, IS attacking others, >} since the GPL itself is intended to hurt people. > >You've taken your conclusion as given, and are arguing back from that point. That the GPL is intended to hurt people is, simply, beyond dispute. Richard Stallman has explicitly and repeatedly stated not only THAT it is designed to hurt people, but whom it is designed to hurt, and how. >} One of the memetic strengths of the Linux community and its leaders >} is that they have not only things that they promote but things that >} they firmly oppose. Such causes draw people together. One thing I see >} in the BSD community which hobbles its effectiveness is that some people >} in it refuse to take a stand, even against something like the GPL which >} is clearly hurtful and malicious. Perhaps this is what Linus was really >} saying. > >Because it is "clear" to you does not mean that everyone else who has >anything to do with *BSD agrees. I wish you would get that through your >head. It isn't a point that's subject to being argued. The author of the GPL has stated, many times, unambiguously, that this was his intent in creating it: to hurt programmers' livelihoods. I'd be glad to post some of the relevant material if you'd like. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 16:28:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCCEF42E5 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA18320; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:27:13 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000210012205.009a1a80@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:27:58 +0100 To: Brett Glass From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000209165815.03e22a70@localhost> References: <20000209230436.A5D1E9B@woodstock.monkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I think we may just have to disagree on this. For me, and for many others, >the very ESSENCE of BSD is the sort of programmer-friendly, supportive sharing >that the GPL is intended to sabotage. > >Many of the best things that BSD has produced -- it can even be credited >for the widespread success of the Internet itself -- would never have come >to be if it were licensed under the GPL. > >>} When one points out the problems of the GPL, one is not "attacking >>} others;" rather, one is helping others by exposing a deceitful and >>} malicious agenda. That's a VERY positive thing. > >That the GPL is intended to hurt people is, simply, beyond dispute. Richard >Stallman has explicitly and repeatedly stated not only THAT it is designed >to hurt people, but whom it is designed to hurt, and how. Hi! Well, as I am collecting material and sources for writing some advocacy pieces here in germany, it would be very interesting where Stallman said this, as for sure the discussion GPL vs BSDL will come up again... And, isn't the name self-explaining? Stall (ing) man ?? ;-)) > >>} One of the memetic strengths of the Linux community and its leaders >>} is that they have not only things that they promote but things that >>} they firmly oppose. Such causes draw people together. One thing I see >>} in the BSD community which hobbles its effectiveness is that some people >>} in it refuse to take a stand, even against something like the GPL which >>} is clearly hurtful and malicious. Perhaps this is what Linus was really >>} saying. Well, thats a common efect in times of war and need... But in our "good" times here we have some other measurements... We have to remember that Linux arouse partially as a sort of being anti, it has even nowadays for the hard-core Linuxer some spirit of the 68 on it, if you want to believe some of the flame wars... >It isn't a point that's subject to being argued. The author of the GPL has >stated, many times, unambiguously, that this was his intent in creating >it: to hurt programmers' livelihoods. I'd be glad to post some of the >relevant material if you'd like. Please sent some of that to me via private mail, or quote at least some resource. Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 16:32:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3162742C6 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:32:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA52961; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:02:00 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:02:00 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Jon Hamilton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000210110200.N44456@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000209230436.A5D1E9B@woodstock.monkey.net> <4.2.2.20000209165815.03e22a70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000209165815.03e22a70@localhost> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 9 February 2000 at 17:16:13 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:04 PM 2/9/2000 , Jon Hamilton wrote: >> [quoting Brett Glass] >>> Using or supporting the GPL, on the other hand, IS attacking others, >>> since the GPL itself is intended to hurt people. >> >> You've taken your conclusion as given, and are arguing back from that point. > > That the GPL is intended to hurt people is, simply, beyond > dispute. Richard Stallman has explicitly and repeatedly stated not > only THAT it is designed to hurt people, but whom it is designed to > hurt, and how. Jon, it's for reasons like this that I don't continue discussions with Brett. If he could channel his ability into something positive, like the Daemon News article I suggested, it would be one thing. But it seems that his perception of the GPL is at the centre of his being, and nothing will shake it. It's a pity, because it devalues him as a serious discussion partner, but there's obviously not much we can do about it. How about just stopping this thread here and now? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 17: 8:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csla.csl.sri.com (csla.csl.sri.com [192.12.33.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E6442D4 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:08:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sofia.csl.sri.com (sofia.csl.sri.com [130.107.18.127]) by csla.csl.sri.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA22289 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:07:51 -0800 (PST) From: Marco Molteni Received: (from molter@localhost) by sofia.csl.sri.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA10694 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:07:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:07:50 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: (fwd) EFF Pioneer Award nominations requested Message-ID: <20000209170750.A10680@sofia.csl.sri.com> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have a look at this. In 1998 they gave the award, among others, to Richard Stallman and Linus Torvalds. Since: > 3. Nominations may be of individuals, systems, or organizations in the > private or public sectors. and we are trying to bring together the various flavours of *BSD, I suggest to nominate something like "the BSD operating system and the projects developing it" As reasons for the nomination, I think that the socket API and the BSD style license are enough ;-) Marco -- Marco Molteni "rough consensus and running code" SRI International, System Design Laboratory 333 Ravenswood Avenue, Menlo Park, CA 94025, USA. ----- Forwarded message from "Peter G. Neumann" ----- Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:34:19 PST From: "Peter G. Neumann" To: csl-all@csl.sri.com Subject: EFF Pioneer Award nominations requested Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:08:51 -0800 Subject: Seeking Pioneers of the Electronic Frontier Call for Nominations: The Ninth Annual International EFF Pioneer Awards In every field of human endeavor, there are those dedicated to expanding knowledge, freedom, efficiency, and utility. Many of today's brightest innovators are working along the electronic frontier. To recognize these leaders, the Electronic Frontier Foundation established the Pioneer Awards for deserving individuals and organizations. The Pioneer Awards are international and nominations are open to all. The deadline for nominations this year is March 15, 2000 (see nomination criteria and instructions below). The 2000 AWARDS The Ninth Annual EFF Pioneer Awards will be presented in Toronto, Canada, at the 10th Conference on Computers, Freedom, and Privacy (see http://www.cfp2000.org). The ceremony will be held on the evening of April 6, 2000. All nominations will be reviewed by a panel of judges chaired by Dave Farber, FCC Chief Technologist and long time EFF Boardmember, and chosen for their knowledge of the technical, legal, and social issues associated with information technology. This year's EFF Pioneer Awards judges are: - Herb Brody, Senior Editor, Technology Review - Dave Farber, Chief Technologist, FCC - Moira Gunn, Host, Tech Nation, NPR - Larry Irving, CEO, UrbanMagic.com - Tara Lemmey, Executive Director, EFF - Peter G. Neumann, Principal Scientist, Computer Science Lab, SRI International and Moderator, ACM Risks Forum - Susan H. Nycum, Partner, Baker & McKenzie - Drazen Pantic, NYU Center for War, Peace, & the News Media - Barbara Simons, President, ACM HOW TO NOMINATE SOMEONE There are no specific categories for the EFF Pioneer Awards, but the following guidelines apply: 1. The nominees must have made a substantial contribution to the health, growth, accessibility, or freedom of computer-based communications. 2. The contribution may be technical, social, economic, or cultural. 3. Nominations may be of individuals, systems, or organizations in the private or public sectors. 4. Nominations are open to all, and you may nominate more than one recipient. You may nominate yourself or your organization. 5. All nominations, to be valid, must contain your reasons, however brief, for nominating the individual or organization, along with a means of contacting the nominee, and your own contact number. Anonymous nominations will be allowed, but we prefer to be able to contact the nominating parties in the event that we need further information. 6. Every person or organization, with the single exception of EFF staff members, is eligible for an EFF Pioneer Award. 7. Persons or representatives of organizations receiving an EFF Pioneer Award will be invited to attend the ceremony at the Foundation's expense. You may send as many nominations as you wish, but please use one e-mail per nomination. Submit all entries to: pioneer@eff.org Just tell us: 1. The name of the nominee; 2. The phone number or e-mail address at which the nominee can be reached; and, most importantly, 3. Why you feel the nominee deserves the award; You may attach supporting documentation in Microsoft Word or other standard binary formats. PAST PIONEERS OF THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER 1992: Douglas C. Engelbart, Robert Kahn, Jim Warren, Tom Jennings, and Andrzej Smereczynski; 1993: Paul Baran, Vinton Cerf, Ward Christensen, Dave Hughes and the USENET software developers, represented by the software's originators Tom Truscott and Jim Ellis; 1994: Ivan Sutherland, Whitfield Diffie and Martin Hellman, Murray Turoff and Starr Roxanne Hiltz, Lee Felsenstein, Bill Atkinson, and the WELL; 1995: Philip Zimmermann, Anita Borg, and Willis Ware; 1996: Robert Metcalfe, Peter Neumann, Shabbir Safdar and Matthew Blaze; 1997: Marc Rotenberg, Johan "Julf" Helsingius, and (special honorees) Hedy Lamarr and George Antheil; 1998: Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, and Barbara Simons; 1999: Jon Postel, Drazen Pantic, and Simon Davies. See http://www.eff.org/pioneer for further information. ABOUT EFF The Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org) is a global nonprofit organization linking technical architectures with legal frameworks to support the rights of individuals in an open society. Founded in 1990, EFF actively encourages and challenges industry and government to support free expression, privacy, and openness in the information society. EFF is a member-supported organization and maintains one of the most-linked-to Web sites in the world. ===------------------------------------------------- Alex Fowler Director, Strategic Initiatives Group Electronic Frontier Foundation Email: alex@eff.org or afowler@eff.org Tel: 415.436.9333, x103; Fax 415.436.9993 Mobile: 415.595.6683 You can find EFF on the Web at http://www.eff.org -------------------------------------------------=== ----- End forwarded message ----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 17:10:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4651A40F9 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22256; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:09:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000209175923.03e40e20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 18:09:12 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Cc: Jon Hamilton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000210110200.N44456@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000209165815.03e22a70@localhost> <20000209230436.A5D1E9B@woodstock.monkey.net> <4.2.2.20000209165815.03e22a70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:32 PM 2/9/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >Jon, it's for reasons like this that I don't continue discussions with >Brett. If he could channel his ability into something positive, like >the Daemon News article I suggested, it would be one thing. I am, indeed, channeling most of my efforts into very positive things. My occasional explanation of the history and nature of the GPL doesn't take much of my time, but I do consider it to be important and constructive. I may yet do that Daemon News article. However, the disparaging remarks that you made earlier dissuaded me from doing so. Why volunteer my time if it won't be appreciated? I likewise dropped work on two device drivers after Mike Smith berated those projects. Don't expect me to contribute if you're going to look a gift horse in the mouth. >But it >seems that his perception of the GPL is at the centre of his being, >and nothing will shake it. I wouldn't at all say that it's at the "centre of [my] being." But I do very much believe in being ethical. One of the ways in which I AM ethical is to expose schemes such as the GPL when I see them. But if you think that this is all I do, you're wrong. I wrote a column and about half a book chapter today. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 9 19:47:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 945D04360 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 19:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA76699; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:46:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200002100346.WAA76699@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 22:46:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: skinner Subject: Re: FreeBSD on Jenny Jones show Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Feb-00 skinner wrote: > On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > -> Better than the "BSD 9.2" refrence in "Die Hard!", not quite as > -> cool as the direct reference to FreeBSD on Charlie Rose, but > -> there you have it. I guess we have to make a Jerry Springer > -> episode to really be mainstream, but we're close. 8-). > > I can see it now. People chanting "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry" Linux users on > one side, BSD users on the other side, all yelling why thier OS is > better. Then the secret guest comes out, a former linux user that has > gone BSD. Everyone gets upset and the fists start a throwin.... :) Hahaha... -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 2:31:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AD04412 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA68891 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:31:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:31:05 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: February BAFUG meeting in Foster City Message-ID: <20000210023105.B68825@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) February 2000 Meeting The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, February 10th. This month's meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda : ==> Josef Grosch and Nicole Harrington will talk about BAFUG's plans for the Install-A-Thon at the Oakland Convention Center on February 26th. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions : By CalTrain : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, turning right one block to Marsh Drive. By SamTrans : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle Communications. By Car : From the South Bay and Peninsula : Take 101 North towards San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the East Bay : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the ramp to a left (north-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then process as described above for US-101 northbound. From the North Bay and San Francisco : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com BAFUG - http://www.bafug.org Contact : Please contact either Nicole Harrington or Josef Grosch on or before February 10th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 2:35:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64BC7436A for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA68934 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:34:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 02:34:45 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Headcount for BAFUG meeting in Foster City Message-ID: <20000210023445.E68825@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 6pm it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 7:36:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B31444BB for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA59033; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:35:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:35:41 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , Jon Hamilton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000209175923.03e40e20@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:32 PM 2/9/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >Jon, it's for reasons like this that I don't continue discussions > >with Brett. If he could channel his ability into something positive, > >like the Daemon News article I suggested, it would be one thing. > I may yet do that Daemon News article. However, the disparaging > remarks that you made earlier dissuaded me from doing so. Why > volunteer my time if it won't be appreciated? Sigh. Brett - other than Greg being one of the initial and consistent contributors to DN, he has no editorial power. The only person who you discussed this with from DN who does was Greg Sutter (AFAIK). I don't believe Chris, Geoff, or I talked to you about it. I know Greg S. asked you not to bring up the GPL in the article and to the best of my knowledge that's as far as it went. I find it hard to believe that you would be dissuaded by one person, even if that person were Grog, to not write the article since backing down from your beliefs doesn't seem in character w/ all of your interactions here and in other forums. It certainly hasn't stopped you from talking about the GPL yet. :-) Please write the article and send it in - we're always happy to receive well written articles and you'll be given a fair review process by the editors. Submit to article@daemonnews.org. Brett Editor in Chief ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 13:38:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DB30458C for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03354 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:38:08 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:38:08 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200002102138.OAA03354@lariat.lariat.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RTLinux Patent Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In case folks on the list haven't heard yet, one of the developers of RTLinux claims to have *patented* a fairly generic (and probably not original) scheme for placing a real time kernel underneath a non-real-time OS. What's more outrageous still is what he says about licensing. The "inventor," Victor Yodaiken, says: What you should think of the patent depends on who you are. If you are an RTLinux user, or even if you use some other version of realtime Linux, then you should be thrilled that there is some legal protection for using the system royalty free and you should send me some money to help me pay the extensive legal fees involved. If you want to use my idea for a non-Linux or non open project, you should think about how to pay. In short, this person intends to use the patent to torpedo both closed source AND open source real-time operating system implementations other than Linux derivatives. He has indicated that he will demand royalties from anyone who releases a non-GPLed product -- open source or not -- which he believes to infringe upon the patent. Ironically, the techniques mentioned in the patent appear to have been used by Intel in its real time layer for Windows, as well as in IBM's VM/CMS. Thus, the patent may be invalidated. But is it a harbinger of things to come? Will other adherents of the GPL attempt to use patents to force the BSDs to adopt their license -- preventing the BSDs from serving as a developer-friendly alternative? For more information, see: http://lwn.net/2000/0210/a/vy-patent.html (Message from the "inventor") http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?&pn=US05995745__ (The patent) http://lwn.net/2000/0210/ (Linux Weekly News article) --Brett Glass P.S. -- Brett and Chris: Feel free to repost on Daemon Daily News if you'd like. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 14:43:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1969A4567 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA55257; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:43:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:43:15 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RTLinux Patent In-Reply-To: <200002102138.OAA03354@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > In case folks on the list haven't heard yet, one of the developers > of RTLinux claims to have *patented* a fairly generic (and > probably not original) scheme for placing a real time kernel > underneath a non-real-time OS. What's more outrageous still is Software patents in US are pretty silly -- regardless of what you think of them as a concept. Microsoft has a patent on what appears to be the semaphore. Someone received a patent for windowing of two digit years. There are any number of ridiculus software patents that fail the prior art challenge. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 14:48:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D08645AC for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.20] (spider.interactplus.com [216.180.46.102]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA26075 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:47:47 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: dkelly@hiwaay.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:47:33 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: David Kelly Subject: Why I Don't Do Linux Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Every now and then something pops up to remind me of how much I like the professional attitude of FreeBSD and don't miss the Linux radicals. At work our web pages are hosted at a local ISP on a Cobalt RAQ. The man page for su says: > This program does not support a "wheel group" that > restricts who can su to super-user accounts, because that > can help fascist system administrators hold unwarranted > power over other users. Lets all rush out and lynch those "fascist system administrators" who would even consider limiting who is allowed a chance at attempting to become root. "unwarranted power"? Groan. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ======================================================================== Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 15: 5:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119B345D3 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25185; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:32:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:32:18 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Message-ID: <20000210153218.C17536@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 04:47:33PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * David Kelly [000210 15:15] wrote: > Every now and then something pops up to remind me of how much I like > the professional attitude of FreeBSD and don't miss the Linux > radicals. At work our web pages are hosted at a local ISP on a Cobalt > RAQ. The man page for su says: > > > This program does not support a "wheel group" that > > restricts who can su to super-user accounts, because that > > can help fascist system administrators hold unwarranted > > power over other users. > > > Lets all rush out and lynch those "fascist system administrators" who > would even consider limiting who is allowed a chance at attempting to > become root. > actually, it does support a wheel group: chown root:wheel /bin/su chmod 4750 /bin/su Cobalt is also cool because older versions leaked root's .bash_history. "giving new meaning to the slogan 'open systems'" *arf* -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 15:17:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDFB74471 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA63448; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:16:41 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:16:41 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <20000210153218.C17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > actually, it does support a wheel group: > > chown root:wheel /bin/su > chmod 4750 /bin/su > Not quite the same. The BSD su(1) lets non-wheel users use su(1) to non-root accounts. This is handy for things like application admins, who don't need root priveleges, but do things as someone else. > Cobalt is also cool because older versions leaked root's .bash_history. heh. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 15:33:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14CB84534; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id PAA06285; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:32:46 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA00340; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:32:46 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn5.utah.xylan.com [198.206.184.241]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id PAA26112; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:32:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38A34C0B.30C5D24E@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:38:51 -0700 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: info@softweyr.com Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: frebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Who is important to you? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org An interesting question came up yesterday, which I need to pass on. This is not just a casual question, it may affect funding for some potential BSD development projects. The question is: Who are the key people in the BSD community? I'm looking for both specific names (JKH and Theo obviously spring to mind) as well as classes of people, like "committers and core team members," "-questions answerers", "VM hackers," or "booth babes." Oops, sorry, wrong discussion. ;^) Please respond to the address I've supplied in the Reply-To header. I'll summarize the response in a future column or article. Discussion amongst yourselves is optional, but PLEASE keep it on the -chat mailing list. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 16:55: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D506345EA; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17384; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:51:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:51:17 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: John Baldwin Cc: skinner , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD on Jenny Jones show In-Reply-To: <200002100346.WAA76699@server.baldwin.cx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > > I can see it now. People chanting "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry" Linux users on > > one side, BSD users on the other side, all yelling why thier OS is > > better. Then the secret guest comes out, a former linux user that has > > gone BSD. Everyone gets upset and the fists start a throwin.... :) > > Hahaha... > Don't laugh, have youi been actually reading this list lately? ;) (sorry Brett, Greg, couldn't resist) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 17:10:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0B245CA for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA75997; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:23:07 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:23:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Taylor Cc: Brett Glass , Jon Hamilton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000211112307.T67060@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000209175923.03e40e20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 10 February 2000 at 10:35:41 -0500, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > >> At 05:32 PM 2/9/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> Jon, it's for reasons like this that I don't continue discussions >>> with Brett. If he could channel his ability into something positive, >>> like the Daemon News article I suggested, it would be one thing. > >> I may yet do that Daemon News article. However, the disparaging >> remarks that you made earlier dissuaded me from doing so. Why >> volunteer my time if it won't be appreciated? > > Sigh. Brett - other than Greg being one of the initial and > consistent contributors to DN, he has no editorial power. The only > person who you discussed this with from DN who does was Greg Sutter > (AFAIK). I don't believe Chris, Geoff, or I talked to you about it. > I know Greg S. asked you not to bring up the GPL in the article and > to the best of my knowledge that's as far as it went. I find it > hard to believe that you would be dissuaded by one person, even if > that person were Grog, to not write the article since backing down > from your beliefs doesn't seem in character w/ all of your > interactions here and in other forums. It certainly hasn't stopped > you from talking about the GPL yet. :-) This is becoming the Brett and Greg show, is it? :-) You're right, of course, that I have no editorial power WRT Daemon News, and of course I never said anything intended to imply otherwise. I'd like to emphasize, though, that I didn't do anything to discourage Brett G. writing an article; on the contrary, it was my idea. Like Greg S., I *did* suggest that he should not send a disguised diatribe about the GPL. > Please write the article and send it in - we're always happy to > receive well written articles and you'll be given a fair review > process by the editors. Submit to article@daemonnews.org. I strongly support this. In particular, it would show that Brett G. is interested in active advocacy. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 17:20:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037834592 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06154; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:16:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000210181557.0410c6f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:16:49 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: What Linus said about FreeBSD Cc: Jon Hamilton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000211112307.T67060@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.2.20000209175923.03e40e20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:53 PM 2/10/2000 , Greg Lehey wrote: >I strongly support this. In particular, it would show that Brett >G. is interested in active advocacy. There's certainly plenty of proof of that already. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 17:28: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF8A4592; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA94568; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:22:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:22:35 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Pat Lynch Cc: John Baldwin , skinner , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD on Jenny Jones show Message-ID: <20000210172235.A94462@azazel.zer0.org> References: <200002100346.WAA76699@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from lynch@bsd.unix.sh on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 07:51:17PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 07:51:17PM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > > (sorry Brett, Greg, couldn't resist) Which Brett? Which Greg? :) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 17:33:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E794616; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17651; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:29:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:29:30 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Gregory Sutter Cc: John Baldwin , skinner , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD on Jenny Jones show In-Reply-To: <20000210172235.A94462@azazel.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All of you! rotfl! (but actually it was referring to Brett G. and Grog. __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 07:51:17PM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > > > > (sorry Brett, Greg, couldn't resist) > > Which Brett? Which Greg? :) > > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. > mailto:gsutter@zer0.org > http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ > PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 18: 2:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826ED463D for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from fettesau (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA25024; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:53:29 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000211014526.00cc8730@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:48:29 +0100 To: David Kelly From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:47 10.02.00 -0600, you wrote: >Every now and then something pops up to remind me of how much I like >the professional attitude of FreeBSD and don't miss the Linux >radicals. At work our web pages are hosted at a local ISP on a Cobalt >RAQ. The man page for su says: > >> This program does not support a "wheel group" that >> restricts who can su to super-user accounts, because that >> can help fascist system administrators hold unwarranted >> power over other users. Hi! With regards to Richard Stallman... I think I remember some lines where he said that in a Lab he worked some party decided to take over all the computing power, and he finally got it back by patching the kernel... He said he'd not known how to do this on a Linux... his theory was that one could probably sneak the root password and therefore overcome sch a turnover in might.... Or so I remember this.. Anyone with better memory/URL?? Brett?? Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 18:25:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.wallnet.com (server1.wallnet.com [208.225.162.8]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDAB4646 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cweimann@localhost) by server1.wallnet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA05419; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:23:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20000210212329.A4718@wallnet.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:23:29 -0500 From: "Christopher S. Weimann" To: Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux References: <4.1.20000211014526.00cc8730@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000211014526.00cc8730@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de>; from Olaf Hoyer on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 01:48:29AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 01:48:29AM +0100, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > Hi! > > With regards to Richard Stallman... I think I remember some lines where he > said that in a Lab he worked some party decided to take over all the > computing power, and he finally got it back by patching the kernel... He > said he'd not known how to do this on a Linux... > The following is from the info page for su. Why GNU `su' does not support the `wheel' group =============================================== (This section is by Richard Stallman.) Sometimes a few of the users try to hold total power over all the rest. For example, in 1984, a few users at the MIT AI lab decided to seize power by changing the operator password on the Twenex system and keeping it secret from everyone else. (I was able to thwart this coup and give power back to the users by patching the kernel, but I wouldn't know how to do that in Unix.) However, occasionally the rulers do tell someone. Under the usual `su' mechanism, once someone learns the root password who sympathizes with the ordinary users, he or she can tell the rest. The "wheel group" feature would make this impossible, and thus cement the power of the rulers. I'm on the side of the masses, not that of the rulers. If you are used to supporting the bosses and sysadmins in whatever they do, you might find this idea strange at first. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann SysAdmin 400 Higgins Ave Wall Internet LLC. Brielle NJ, 08730 Serving almost all of New Jersey 732-223-1777 ------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 18:31: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9496B4647 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA00959; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:57:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:57:48 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Christopher S. Weimann" Cc: Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Message-ID: <20000210185747.G17536@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <4.1.20000211014526.00cc8730@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> <20000210212329.A4718@wallnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000210212329.A4718@wallnet.com>; from cweimann@wallnet.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 09:23:29PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Christopher S. Weimann [000210 18:52] wrote: > On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 01:48:29AM +0100, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > > Hi! > > > > With regards to Richard Stallman... I think I remember some lines where he > > said that in a Lab he worked some party decided to take over all the > > computing power, and he finally got it back by patching the kernel... He > > said he'd not known how to do this on a Linux... > > > > The following is from the info page for su. > > > Why GNU `su' does not support the `wheel' group > =============================================== > > (This section is by Richard Stallman.) > > Sometimes a few of the users try to hold total power over all the > rest. For example, in 1984, a few users at the MIT AI lab decided to > seize power by changing the operator password on the Twenex system and > keeping it secret from everyone else. (I was able to thwart this coup > and give power back to the users by patching the kernel, but I wouldn't > know how to do that in Unix.) > > However, occasionally the rulers do tell someone. Under the usual > `su' mechanism, once someone learns the root password who sympathizes > with the ordinary users, he or she can tell the rest. The "wheel > group" feature would make this impossible, and thus cement the power of > the rulers. > > I'm on the side of the masses, not that of the rulers. If you are > used to supporting the bosses and sysadmins in whatever they do, you > might find this idea strange at first. > Or any kind of accountability... http://www.jwz.org/why-cooperation-with-rms-is-impossible.au -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 18:59:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A164538 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-118-134.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.118.134]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA08153 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:54:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA64189 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:13:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200002110213.UAA64189@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: David Kelly Subject: Re: new to BSD In-reply-to: Message from Terry Lambert of "Wed, 09 Feb 2000 16:09:25 GMT." <200002091609.JAA10587@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:13:09 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: [about "culturally neutral" logos] > The daemon is right out; even if he were politically correct > everywhere as "non-satanic" (esp. in Central and South America, > with a high population of traditional Catholics)... he has only > three fingers, being a US cartoon character, and is therefore > unacceptable in Japan as having potential links to the Yakuza, > where cutting off a finger is a pledge of loyalty and/or an > indication of repentance. Even ignoring these links, "deformity", > such as polydactylism and/or missing parts is often taken as a > sign of just retribution for a wrong (karma, etc.). For such a logo one might use a green sneaker/tennis shoe. Hightops with a round patch logo at the ankle. This should take care of most Politically Correct issues. While the rest of us know its still the same old traditional BSD daemon, only a close up. :-) Then again, maybe we'll have to worry somewhere the number of laces on the shoe has deadly ramifications. And whether it was tied left over right first, or right over left. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 19: 6:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9300945DB for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:06:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19950; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:48:02 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38A356E4.C9E234E@softweyr.com> References: <38A356E4.C9E234E@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:48:16 -0500 To: info@softweyr.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Who is important to you? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:25 PM -0700 2/10/00, Wes Peters wrote: >An interesting question came up yesterday, which I need to pass >on. This is not just a casual question, it may affect funding >for some potential BSD development projects. I can't help but think that this is a little odd. One person says "I think JKH is important", and someone else will say "Well then, I'm certainly not going to contribute any funding to the BSD's!"? >The question is: > > Who are the key people in the BSD community? > >I'm looking for both specific names (JKH and Theo obviously >spring to mind) as well as classes of people, like "committers >and core team members", "-questions answerers", "VM hackers", >or "booth babes." Oops, sorry, wrong discussion. ;^) Some of this will depend on the background of the people sending in the answers. For instance, I am interested and do keep track of OpenBSD, but I actually *run* two FreeBSD systems. I do not follow netbsd at all for reasons I'd rather not get into right now. So, I haven't a clue who would be notable in the netbsd world, but that is not meant as a slight to anyone there. For that matter, I don't really know all that many key names in the OpenBSD project, just because I don't follow it as closely as FreeBSD. I think JKH is critical, because for any voluntary programming project of this size, the "people issues" can easily overwhelm the technical issues. Jordan manages to do a good job of handling people issues, even managing to keep his humor (at least in the messages he writes) when wandering into a no-mans land between feuding sides. Perhaps the rumors are true, and this is just an advantage of being a perl script... I think Theo is critical (in more ways than one? :-), because I think many of the goals of OpenBSD are important, and it is hard to imagine OpenBSD having lasted this long without the sheer will power of Theo. OpenBSD now has enough of a "market awareness" that it could probably continue without Theo, but it takes awhile to build up enough of a critical mass of users and developers before a project will get to that stage. Someone like Terry Lambert is important, because every once in awhile he'll write some long detailed answer to someone's technical question. Even ignoring the specifics of whatever that answer might be, any intelligent programmer can't help but read the message and realize that "Somewhere along the line this guy has done about 147 cubic shit-loads of low-level detailed work". That brings credibility and some level of confidence that the people working on the BSD projects are fairly serious about doing the job right, and not just rushing things out the door with a longer-and-longer feature list of things which may-or-may-not work. Matt Dillion's recent work on things like NFS support are important, to me. Here is a part of the system which is certainly not "interesting" or "sexy" in any way, and yet it is still critical to a lot of people who use FreeBSD to run servers. Matt was willing to dive in and untangle many of the underlying problems, and NFS support in FreeBSD has improved considerably in the past year. Someone like Kirk McKusick is important, on several different angles. He's been a part of the BSD's for a long time, and thus can give history and proof that it isn't a johnny-come- lately group. He's running detailed college-level courses on BSD internals. He makes important coding contributions like softupdates. And he manages to keep detached enough from day-to-day bsd-project activities that he's not getting drawn into the inevitable feuds that will spring up between people who have to deal with each other on a daily basis... Someone like Greg Lehey is important to the growth and success of this cooperative project, because while the "fun stuff" is the coding, it is also important to try and write up some books and other tangible documentation for new people to pick up and get some kind of understanding of what the project is and how to test it out. [note: I'm not saying that Greg doesn't write code, I'm saying that books like 'The Complete FreeBSD' are very important and are much too rare for the BSD projects. We need more books which talk about BSD specifics. And no, I don't expect I would write more than any other programmer-type, but I do hope to provide some financial backing so Greg could write more information, such as programming information about writing drivers for FreeBSD]. The people behind daemonnews.org are important, because it helps to have a focal point to find out "headlines" of what is going on in the BSD projects. It's also important that such a site has at least daily activity, or it ceases to be worthwhile to check it out every day. It's important to have a 'core' overseeing projects like this, just so it doesn't go careening out of control. It's also important that the core is actually listening to the people who are trying to contribute, and not just focusing in on the projects that they personally enjoy working on. It's important that someone is paying attention to the problem reports, and trying to investigate them (particularly the ones which have taken the time to include patches to a problem). This is one of those things that pretty much anyone could do, if they are willing to test things on their own system. Maybe they can't COMMIT changes, but anyone can investigate problem reports and either confirm or provide some other reaction. Wes mentioned "VM hackers" as an example category. I think it misses the point to be that specific. What you want are "detail people" who are using FreeBSD to get an important job done. If it then turns out that they can not get their job done because of problems in the VM system, then they will sit down and turn into VM hackers because that is what it will take for them to solve their real-world problem. Having VM hackers (or any specific kind of hackers) "just to have them" is not the point. We could end up with the most amazing virtual memory system imaginable, and still have an unusable system because the drivers for ethernet cards can't pump out more than 100 bytes a second, or because we're running a telnet daemon with so many security holes that you can't keep a system running for more than 20 minutes before it gets broken into. If you're a serious programmer trying to run a real-world operation, then you can become a "guru" of whatever system you need to become a guru of to get the results you need to get. I'm trying to give reasons here, instead of just a list of names, because there are many people I could list for each of the above "categories" of important people. If I tried to give a list of names I would inevitably leave some people out by mistake, and I'm not sure what the consequences of that would be on this "funding" issue. This way I can just shrug and say that I never intended to provide a complete list, so no one can feel "unappreciated" if they aren't mentioned... Obviously there are other people who fit in each of the categories I've described, but I'm not going to try and list them... > I've redirected followups to my own info mailbox and to -chat > to avoid cluttering up other mail lists as much as possible. While I spent a fair amount of time thinking about what I wanted to say here, and typing it up, I'm afraid I don't have the time right now to start following freebsd-chat. Anyone who wants to discuss this, feel free to discuss it without including me... I do hope that this is at least food for thought, even though I may not add much more to discussing this topic. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 19:11:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B307D4662 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:10:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06975; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:50:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000210194202.040341c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:50:43 -0700 To: Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000211014526.00cc8730@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:48 PM 2/10/2000 , Olaf Hoyer wrote: >With regards to Richard Stallman... I think I remember some lines where he >said that in a Lab he worked some party decided to take over all the >computing power, and he finally got it back by patching the kernel... It may have been ITS that allowed an inconsiderate user to hog the CPU. It had virtually no security. I could be mistaken about this, though. It's well known, though, that Richard was very much opposed to even basic security measures. He badgered everyone at the MIT AI Lab to use the null string as a password, for the sake of "openness." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 10 23:39:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.wallnet.com (server1.wallnet.com [208.225.162.8]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E2944F6 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cweimann@localhost) by server1.wallnet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id CAA16385; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 02:39:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20000211023917.A16148@wallnet.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 02:39:17 -0500 From: "Christopher S. Weimann" To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new to BSD References: <200002110213.UAA64189@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <200002110213.UAA64189@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:13:09PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:13:09PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > > For such a logo one might use a green sneaker/tennis shoe. Hightops > with a round patch logo at the ankle. This should take care of most > Politically Correct issues. While the rest of us know its still the > same old traditional BSD daemon, only a close up. :-) > I like this idea ( not that I matter :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann SysAdmin 400 Higgins Ave Wall Internet LLC. Brielle NJ, 08730 Serving almost all of New Jersey 732-223-1777 ------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 1:53:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C04FD46D6 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26155 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:52:39 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA20865; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:51:51 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who is important to you? References: <38A34C0B.30C5D24E@softweyr.com> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:38:51 -0700" Date: 11 Feb 2000 10:51:51 +0100 Message-ID: <0v4sbg2hjc.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > An interesting question came up yesterday, Where did *that* question came up? Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 3:37:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mel.alcatel.fr (mel.alcatel.fr [212.208.74.132]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE913D57 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 03:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from aifhs10.alcatel.fr (mailhub2.alcatel.fr [155.132.188.80]) by mel.alcatel.fr (ALCANET/SMTP) with ESMTP id MAA05004; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:29:30 +0100 From: Thierry.Herbelot@alcatel.fr Received: from frmta003.netfr.alcatel.fr (frmta003.netfr.alcatel.fr [155.132.251.32]) by aifhs10.alcatel.fr (ALCANET/SMTP2) with SMTP id MAA20752; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:31:35 +0100 (MET) Received: by frmta003.netfr.alcatel.fr(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.6 (890.1 7-16-1999)) id C1256882.003FCDA3 ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:36:54 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ALCATEL To: info@softweyr.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:36:50 +0100 Subject: Re: Who is important to you? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I like very much the work done by Matt Dillon - I just wish he would be more inclined to explain what he does (or I would be smart enough to follow what he does). (other heroes : Greg Lehey, Soeren Schmidt) TfH To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 3:43:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074223D42 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 03:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildrock (207-229-172-63.d.enteract.com [207.229.172.63]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA08130; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 05:42:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) From: "Chris Silva" To: , , Subject: RE: Who is important to you? Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 05:42:30 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of > Thierry.Herbelot@alcatel.fr > Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 5:37 AM > To: info@softweyr.com; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Who is important to you? > > > > > I like very much the work done by Matt Dillon - I just wish he > would be more inclined to explain what he does (or I would be > smart enough to follow what he does). > > (other heroes : Greg Lehey, Soeren Schmidt) Per the above line - JKH! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.0.2 iQA/AwUBOKP1pIYwDkcZSgMYEQKpnQCfVSI+YnWg4Hyb3OX+9U4EVOiX5UgAoLLy Fn21YFxVVOdED8wL/EqJMjUf =oY5U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 6:26:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7AE84754 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 06:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.51]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6405 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:45:32 -0500 Message-ID: <38A41271.EC85FBF4@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:45:21 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Reply-To: giffunip@asme.org Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Fwd: A comment from scps1. about [/staroffice]] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B56CEE88D571E6531E15C95C" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B56CEE88D571E6531E15C95C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just in case some of you shared my doubt bout Staroffice... cheers, Pedro. --------------B56CEE88D571E6531E15C95C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mercury.Sun.COM ([192.9.25.1]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2EE3 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:21:01 -0500 Received: from engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.13]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03267 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha3mpk.eng.sun.com (phys-ha3mpka.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.19.30]) by engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1/ENSMAIL,v1.6) with ESMTP id OAA26944; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from googol by ha3mpk.eng.sun.com (8.8.8+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id OAA26642; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:56:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200002102256.OAA26642@ha3mpk.eng.sun.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:56:13 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff McMeekin Reply-To: Jeff McMeekin Subject: A comment from scps1. about [/staroffice] To: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: rx09WO7PFKvkQ9n0otO62w== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.2 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc The source is coming, the project is underway in Ireland for Sun. Expect it by June. Watch Sun's web site for updates on the schedule. Jeff Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:26:01 -0700 From: dynamo@scps1 (nobody@Sun.COM) To: laurie.wynn@Sun.COM Subject: A comment from scps1. about [/staroffice] Cc: wmm-archive@webmaker.eng.sun.com User : pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Pedro F. Giffuni, + (571) 6233115 - U. Nacional de Colombia) URL : http://www.sun.com/staroffice Server : www.sun.com type : Comment sort : url ------------------------------------------------------------ Hello; I am wondering what ever happened to the Staroffice source code release! We have been waiting for the source code to port this to FreeBSD http://www.FreeBSD.org/ thanks, Pedro F. Giffuni Santafe de Bogota, Colombia ------------------------------------------------------------ Remote host : Remote IP address : 168.176.3.184 Agent : Mozilla/4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) ============================================================ __ ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- --------------B56CEE88D571E6531E15C95C-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 10:23:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from topsecret.net (gill.apk.net [207.54.148.62]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB7103D26 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pacific.int.topsecret.net by topsecret.net with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:23:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:23:32 -0500 (EST) From: "[gill]" X-Sender: gill@pacific.int.topsecret.net To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new to BSD In-Reply-To: <200002110213.UAA64189@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Return-Path: gill@topsecret.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I like the shoe idea. Perhaps we could get the other *BSD denominations to cooperate with us on it using different colors? I have also thought for a while about trying to modify the 'deamon' with an angel. You know, the kind of thing that sat on Sylvester's right and left shoulder as he decided to eat Tweety or not. There could be the traditional daemon logo and a more digestable (at least stateside) angel. I'm trying to put together some systems for my church and I have wonders as to how well the little red guy is going to go over. And the processes that run without user interaction might well be called guardian angels. Certainly I am not the first to have thought of any of this! --gill Remember? When you said: ->Terry Lambert writes: ->[about "culturally neutral" logos] ->> The daemon is right out; even if he were politically correct ->> everywhere as "non-satanic" (esp. in Central and South America, ->> with a high population of traditional Catholics)... he has only ->> three fingers, being a US cartoon character, and is therefore ->> unacceptable in Japan as having potential links to the Yakuza, ->> where cutting off a finger is a pledge of loyalty and/or an ->> indication of repentance. Even ignoring these links, "deformity", ->> such as polydactylism and/or missing parts is often taken as a ->> sign of just retribution for a wrong (karma, etc.). -> ->For such a logo one might use a green sneaker/tennis shoe. Hightops ->with a round patch logo at the ankle. This should take care of most ->Politically Correct issues. While the rest of us know its still the ->same old traditional BSD daemon, only a close up. :-) -> ->Then again, maybe we'll have to worry somewhere the number of laces on ->the shoe has deadly ramifications. And whether it was tied left over ->right first, or right over left. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 11:30:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF2447D2 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15214 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:30:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000211122722.03eb0b50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:30:06 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Walnut Creek "Usenet" disc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Many moons ago, Walnut Creek CD-ROM published a "Best of Usenet" disc containing archives of articles from Usenet News. (It became impractical to do this once NetNews exploded, but at the time, it was a handy way to track goings-on in the hacker world.) Does anyone have a copy of this disc? I'm looking for some historical material which apparently has not been archived on the Web. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 11:43:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay.ioffe.rssi.ru (relay.ioffe.rssi.ru [194.85.224.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3793D9A for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from astro.ioffe.rssi.ru (astro.ioffe.rssi.ru [194.85.229.130]) by relay.ioffe.rssi.ru (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA21050 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:43:39 +0300 (MSK) Received: by astro.ioffe.rssi.ru (8.9.3/Clnt-2.14-AS-eef) id WAA13451; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:43:33 +0300 (MSK) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:43:33 +0300 (MSK) From: Alexey Koptsevich To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: abbreviations Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Where could I learn the meaning of the abbreviations widely used in the newsgroups, such as AFAIK, etc? Thanks, Alexey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 12: 5: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sdca.home.com [24.0.3.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C7D3D8A for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.net ([24.0.178.21]) by mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000211200445.PGCG23735.mail.rdc1.sdca.home.com@home.net> for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:04:45 -0800 Message-ID: <38A46B98.3E0097E0@home.net> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:05:44 -0800 From: Craig Burgess X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: abbreviations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alexey Koptsevich wrote: > > Hello, > > Where could I learn the meaning of the abbreviations widely used in the > newsgroups, such as AFAIK, etc? I'm sure there's a collection somewhere, but I don't know where. Here are some of the common ones: AFAIK -- as far as I know IMO -- in my opinion IMHO -- in my humble opinion (and variations like "... not-so-humble ...") IIRC -- (may be) if I recall correctly FWIW -- for what it's worth BTW -- by the way IANAL -- I am not a lawyer Happy hunting, craig To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 12: 9:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luna.cdrom.com (luna.cdrom.com [204.216.28.135]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E953D73 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by luna.cdrom.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E2F3916B; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:09:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:09:28 -0800 From: Jim Mock To: Alexey Koptsevich Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: abbreviations Message-ID: <20000211120928.A73233@luna.cdrom.com> Reply-To: jim@luna.cdrom.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.3i In-Reply-To: ; from ak@astro.ioffe.rssi.ru on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:43:33PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 at 22:43:33 +0300, Alexey Koptsevich wrote: > Hello, > > Where could I learn the meaning of the abbreviations widely used in the > newsgroups, such as AFAIK, etc? The Jargon File might be useful. - jim -- - jim mock - walnut creek cdrom/freebsd test labs - jim@luna.cdrom.com - - phone: 1.925.691.2800 x.3814 - fax: 1.925.674.0821 - jim@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 15: 5:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D60A4884 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:05:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA13440; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:05:05 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000211234628.00999210@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:51:14 +0100 To: "[gill]" From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: new to BSD Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <200002110213.UAA64189@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:23 11.02.00 -0500, you wrote: > >I like the shoe idea. Perhaps we could get the other *BSD denominations >to cooperate with us on it using different colors? > >I have also thought for a while about trying to modify the 'deamon' with >an angel. You know, the kind of thing that sat on Sylvester's right and >left shoulder as he decided to eat Tweety or not. There could be the >traditional daemon logo and a more digestable (at least >stateside) angel. I'm trying to put together some systems for my church >and I have wonders as to how well the little red guy is going to go over. > >And the processes that run without user interaction might well be called >guardian angels. > Hi! Well, yes there have also been some efforts/thoughts on this. Personally I like angels, too, but they are associated with some religion, so islamic countries may see this really serious. Also I remember some thoughts from some kind of christian organisation to bring out a purified UNIX for christian use... They intended to clean all foul language out of it, so thet even the commands like kill, terminate, etc would have to be renamed, of course there are no demons (pardon daemons, but there is no difference since they are also somewhat small and creepy) etc. Of course the fortune file needs to be replaced of bible verses... This should have been based on some kind of Linux, I mean to recall... Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 15:39:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A239D3DC1 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:39:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA14895; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:38:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:38:30 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Thierry.Herbelot@alcatel.fr Cc: info@softweyr.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who is important to you? Message-ID: <20000211153830.A13770@azazel.zer0.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from Thierry.Herbelot@alcatel.fr on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 12:36:50PM +0100 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-02-11 12:36 +0100, Thierry.Herbelot@alcatel.fr wrote: > > > I like very much the work done by Matt Dillon - I just wish he would be more inclined to explain what he does (or I would be smart enough to follow what he does). Matt wrote an excellent article on the FreeBSD VM system; although that is not originally his work, his contributions have greatly improved the system. http://www.daemonnews.org/200002/freebsd_vm.html Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter I got a Pentium II for my girlfriend. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org Good trade, eh? http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 17: 0:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870E14828 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10087; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:59:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMqayJt; Fri Feb 11 17:59:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28777; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:59:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002120059.RAA28777@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: new to BSD To: lynch@bsd.unix.sh (Pat Lynch) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:59:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), alanpat214@earthlink.net (Alan Burnett), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Pat Lynch" at Feb 09, 2000 11:42:25 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch wrote: > On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:00 AM 2/9/2000 , Pat Lynch wrote: > > >Terry, > > > what kind of "culturally neutral" logo does this refer to, not > > >knowing much about business apsects of things, but sort of like a "FreeBSD > > >Certified" stamp? > > > > I'm not sure, but my guess is that he means something without the daemon. > > You can't sell ANYTHING with such a label -- even hot sauce! -- in Islamic > > countries. In fact, for those countries you're pretty much limited to > > geometric patterns and letters. > > that works for me, thats why I asked. I didn't get Pat's question in my mailbox. That's precidely the reason. There are entire departments in IBM whose sole job is to ensure world-wide inoffensiveness. Not a bad idea, considering their results. The ideal logo would be something that could be silk-screened on a brown cardboard box, and could be reduced and not lose clarity. e.g. a small inverse box with text: ,---------. | FreeBSD | | Ready!@ | `---------' With the "@" being the little trademark symbol, but that's just me doing graphic design in ASCII art. There would need to be a definition of terms and conditions of use that was acceptable (e.g. filing of unofficial self-certification that there were drivers for all hardware components in FreeBSD on the FreeBSD web site or something like that) plus all the legal mumbo-jumbo to keep everyone happy with rights to the mark, etc., in terms of paperwork as a result of the filing, etc. (or something like that). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 17: 1:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3933ED3 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24116; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:44:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA3da4aV; Fri Feb 11 17:44:50 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28142; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:44:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002120044.RAA28142@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: MSNBC article To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:44:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), jameso@omaha.com (Jim), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000209112600.X17536@fw.wintelcom.net> from "Alfred Perlstein" at Feb 09, 2000 11:26:00 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000209 09:38] wrote: > > Jim writes: > > > http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp > > > [...] > > > Comments? > > > > It's not a vulnerability, it's a DoS. A little worse than a simple > > flooder, but not much. MSNBC's explanation of how it works is > > incorrect, too - what confuses the router is the destination address > > on the ACK packet (since the packet it ACKs has a random source > > address). There is no argument between the router and the server about > > what's happening. > > Can you guys check the story again? > I get pushed to: http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp > > I can't find 'BSD' or 'cooper' anywhere on the page, and hints? :) I took him to task on technical grounds in private email; this may have had something to do with it. That's the beauty of the web -- "We have always been at war with the East -- look at our news archives...". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 17:17:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5C53E51 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13636; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:41:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:41:52 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Jim , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MSNBC article Message-ID: <20000211174152.A17536@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000209112600.X17536@fw.wintelcom.net> <200002120044.RAA28142@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200002120044.RAA28142@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 12:44:46AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Terry Lambert [000211 17:29] wrote: > > * Dag-Erling Smorgrav [000209 09:38] wrote: > > > Jim writes: > > > > http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp > > > > [...] > > > > Comments? > > > > > > It's not a vulnerability, it's a DoS. A little worse than a simple > > > flooder, but not much. MSNBC's explanation of how it works is > > > incorrect, too - what confuses the router is the destination address > > > on the ACK packet (since the packet it ACKs has a random source > > > address). There is no argument between the router and the server about > > > what's happening. > > > > Can you guys check the story again? > > I get pushed to: http://www.msnbc.com/msn/367495.asp > > > > I can't find 'BSD' or 'cooper' anywhere on the page, and hints? :) > > I took him to task on technical grounds in private email; this may > have had something to do with it. > > That's the beauty of the web -- "We have always been at war with > the East -- look at our news archives...". This is really cool, just recently another article was pulled entirely because of technical inaccuracy, see todays slashdot. I'm pretty impressed that new services are acting repsonsibly, the only problem is that it's being done in 'overwrite mode' instead of issueing errata in re previous incorrect statements. Is it really ok to post something sensational and wrong without really issuing a retraction explaining the technical innacuracy of claims made? -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 17:52: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C2741CE; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA42694; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:50:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:50:25 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: "[gill]" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new to BSD In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000211234628.00999210@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > Also I remember some thoughts from some kind of christian organisation to > bring out a purified UNIX for christian use... They intended to clean all > foul language out of it, so thet even the commands like kill, terminate, > etc would have to be renamed, of course there are no demons (pardon > daemons, but there is no difference since they are also somewhat small and > creepy) etc. Of course the fortune file needs to be replaced of bible > verses... This was a hoax. > This should have been based on some kind of Linux, I mean to recall... It was called 'Jesux' and the announcement claimed it would be distributed under a modified berkeley license with a "John 3:16" clause instead of the standard clause 3. This got all of the GPL zealots up in arms until they realised they were all being fooled. Kris ---- "How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?" "Eight!" "That was a rhetorical question!" "Oh..then, seven!" -- Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 19:28:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F3E3DF3 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-119-84.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.119.84]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA08278; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:17:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA70108; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:17:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200002120317.VAA70108@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "[gill]" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: new to BSD In-reply-to: Message from "[gill]" of "Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:23:32 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:17:26 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "[gill]" writes: > And the processes that run without user interaction might well be called > guardian angels. Or we could call them, "runners", and still have the connection with the shoe. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 19:28:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EAE23EA7 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:28:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-119-84.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.119.84]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA15826; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:20:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA70132; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:20:31 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200002120320.VAA70132@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Jay Nelson Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: new to BSD In-reply-to: Message from Jay Nelson of "Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:03:06 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:20:31 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson writes: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, David Kelly wrote: > > [snip] > > >For such a logo one might use a green sneaker/tennis shoe. Hightops > >with a round patch logo at the ankle. This should take care of most > >Politically Correct issues. While the rest of us know its still the > >same old traditional BSD daemon, only a close up. :-) > > Are you suggesting we should rename to shUnix -- the sole choice? > > 'Course, the Linux crowd would claim that shUnix stinks. Late at night sometimes I still suspect that Linux users are so grumpy because they are jealous that Tux still can't find any tennis shoes that fit. So he just sits there on his fat rump looking at his feet wishing. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 20: 0:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D713E07; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA08777; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:55:08 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000212045122.00c9e100@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:53:33 +0100 To: Kris Kennaway From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: new to BSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20000211234628.00999210@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17:50 11.02.00 -0800, you wrote: >On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > >> Also I remember some thoughts from some kind of christian organisation to >> bring out a purified UNIX for christian use... They intended to clean all >> foul language out of it, so thet even the commands like kill, terminate, >> etc would have to be renamed, of course there are no demons (pardon >> daemons, but there is no difference since they are also somewhat small and >> creepy) etc. Of course the fortune file needs to be replaced of bible >> verses... > >This was a hoax. hi! Oh, well, then it is okay... Yes, as far as we get some things to know here in germany bout that, I personally beleive that there are some weird things religously motivated peeople are able to do, including Jesux etc... Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 21:12:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com [24.6.21.74]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD7D3D55; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from conrads@localhost) by cx344940-a.meta1.la.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id VAA59841; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:07:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from conrads) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000209231001.C10375@ipass.net> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:07:10 -0600 (CST) Organization: @Home Network From: Conrad Sabatier To: Randall Hopper Subject: RE: QuickTime Player Petition (fwd) Cc: multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Feb-00 Randall Hopper wrote: > http://neutron.resnet.gatech.edu/qt-petition.html I saw pitifully few BSD folks (of any stripe) when I went to add my $.02 worth. Come on, people! We can do better than this! [Cc'ed to chat to (hopefully) generate more response] -- Conrad Sabatier http://members.home.net/conrads/ ICQ# 1147270 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 11 21:57:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cliff.i-plus.net (cliff.i-plus.net [209.100.20.42]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3D13F5B for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from arcadia (arcadia.i-plus.net [209.100.20.198]) by cliff.i-plus.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA88369 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:54:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: RE: new to BSD Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:53:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <200002120059.RAA28777@usr08.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Forgive me if this is poorly composed... I've been sitting at my desk playing with M$SQL for the last 15 hours... Imagine if we were to ask the manufacturers of the various hardware that works well with FreeBSD to imprint their packaging material with a FreeBSD Logo. Such a thing would have numerous benifits for the BSD community: 1. Assist newbies in identifying good hardware 2. Promote FreeBSD as a mainstream OS 3. Encourage other hardware manufacturers to develop their own drivers for FreeBSD 4. Look good on the retail side of my store :) Just a random thought... -Troy ** The ideal logo would be something that could be silk-screened on ** a brown cardboard box, and could be reduced and not lose clarity. ** ** e.g. a small inverse box with text: ** ** ,---------. ** | FreeBSD | ** | Ready!@ | ** `---------' ** ** With the "@" being the little trademark symbol, but that's just me ** doing graphic design in ASCII art. ** ** There would need to be a definition of terms and conditions of use ** that was acceptable (e.g. filing of unofficial self-certification ** that there were drivers for all hardware components in FreeBSD on ** the FreeBSD web site or something like that) plus all the legal ** mumbo-jumbo to keep everyone happy with rights to the mark, etc., ** in terms of paperwork as a result of the filing, etc. (or something ** like that). ** ** ** Terry Lambert ** terry@lambert.org ** --- ** Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present ** or previous employers. ** ** ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org ** with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ** ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 0:52:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail04.knox.edu (mail04.knox.edu [63.70.120.64]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9743E52 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from knox.edu ([152.202.58.178]) by mail04.knox.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3481 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:52:13 -0600 Message-ID: <38A5217A.CA695B9E@knox.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 03:01:46 -0600 From: The Dagda Organization: knox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new to BSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Troy Settle wrote: > Imagine if we were to ask the manufacturers of the various hardware that > works well with FreeBSD to imprint their packaging material with a FreeBSD > Logo. Such a thing would have numerous benifits for the BSD community: > > 1. Assist newbies in identifying good hardware > 2. Promote FreeBSD as a mainstream OS > 3. Encourage other hardware manufacturers to > develop their own drivers for FreeBSD > 4. Look good on the retail side of my store :) 5. Promote business for these companies that do support BSD - I'd bet I'm similar to a lot of readers when I say I'd be willing to become loyal to a product if it helped to get more companies to take a look outside the world of Windows. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 8:34:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862023F95 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:34:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA22794 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:34:34 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000212173227.00bb7ad0@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:35:17 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Protection against dDoS attacks? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! at: http://news.excite.com/news/zd/000211/17/if-you-cant there are some news about some Solaris/Linux software that has been written by US agency to protect ccomputers against the agents needes for dDoS attacks. But Source will be closed. Alternatively, another guy offers some detection program... Any comments? Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 8:58:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95E113EC3 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19571 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2000 16:58:03 -0000 Received: from userar68.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.227) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 2000 16:58:03 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00592; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:57:48 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:57:48 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Conrad Sabatier Cc: Randall Hopper , multimedia@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: QuickTime Player Petition (fwd) Message-ID: <20000212165748.A330@marder-1> References: <20000209231001.C10375@ipass.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 09:07:10PM -0600, Conrad Sabatier wrote: > > On 10-Feb-00 Randall Hopper wrote: > > http://neutron.resnet.gatech.edu/qt-petition.html > > I saw pitifully few BSD folks (of any stripe) when I went to add my $.02 > worth. > > Come on, people! We can do better than this! > I've just added my name, would have done earlier if I'd known about it. Thanks for the Heads Up. > [Cc'ed to chat to (hopefully) generate more response] > > -- > Conrad Sabatier > http://members.home.net/conrads/ > ICQ# 1147270 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 12:47:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fb01.eng00.mindspring.net (fb01.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.19]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 298BE3FE2 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mindspring.com (user-33qtk6q.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.208.218]) by fb01.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA04279 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:46:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38A5C792.86CDFF67@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:50:26 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks Organization: Fair Play, Uninc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Protection against dDoS attacks? References: <4.1.20000212173227.00bb7ad0@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Olaf Hoyer wrote: > > Hi! > > at: > > http://news.excite.com/news/zd/000211/17/if-you-cant > > there are some news about some Solaris/Linux software that has been written > by US agency to protect ccomputers against the agents needes for dDoS attacks. > But Source will be closed. > > Alternatively, another guy offers some detection program... > > Any comments? > I'm suspicious of their long-term motives. I also believe that some in the FBI would like to make the use of such software mandatory. I'd almost be willing believe that someone in the government might have been behind the attacks in the first place. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 13:29:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (ftp.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53748410F for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:29:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (tetron02.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA90702; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:29:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from zeus@tetronsoftware.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:29:58 -0600 (CST) From: Gene Harris To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Protection against dDoS attacks? In-Reply-To: <38A5C792.86CDFF67@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > Olaf Hoyer wrote: > > > > Hi! > > > > at: > > > > http://news.excite.com/news/zd/000211/17/if-you-cant > > > > there are some news about some Solaris/Linux software that has been written > > by US agency to protect ccomputers against the agents needes for dDoS attacks. > > But Source will be closed. > > > > Alternatively, another guy offers some detection program... > > > > Any comments? > > > > I'm suspicious of their long-term motives. I also believe that some in > the FBI would like to make the use of such software mandatory. > > I'd almost be willing believe that someone in the government might have > been behind the attacks in the first place. Now, don't go picking on the United Nations! LMAO > > Cheers, > > Jerry Hicks > jhix@mindspring.com > Couldn't resist it, Gene To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 14:19:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8BB13F7D; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:19:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA21234; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:46:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:46:58 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/devel/kdevelop - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000212144658.K17536@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200002122150.NAA75057@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200002122150.NAA75057@freefall.freebsd.org>; from jedgar@FreeBSD.org on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 01:50:43PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Chris D. Faulhaber [000212 14:18] wrote: > jedgar 2000/02/12 13:50:43 PST > > ports/devel/kdevelop - Imported sources > Update of /home/ncvs/ports/devel/kdevelop > In directory freefall.freebsd.org:/c/users/jedgar/work/kdevelop > > Log Message: > This is the non-i18n version of kdevelop, a complete > IDE, made primarily for the K Desktop Environment. > It seems to be quite comparable to CodeWarrior Pro > on Windows/MacOS. Paired with kdbg, ktranslator, > and other helper apps, it makes one heck of a > powerful KDE/Qt application developer. Sounds too good to be true, time for kde again? If this is from personal experiance, I'd like to check it out, however if the description is gleamed from freshmeat i'd rather not waste my time. :) Does it do qt/kde widgets like Borland's stuff? *perk* -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 15: 7:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pawn.primelocation.net (pawn.primelocation.net [205.161.238.235]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A564093; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by pawn.primelocation.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 1EC129B1C; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:07:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pawn.primelocation.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15EDFBA0C; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:07:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:07:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Chris D. Faulhaber" X-Sender: jedgar@pawn.primelocation.net To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/devel/kdevelop - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <20000212144658.K17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Chris D. Faulhaber [000212 14:18] wrote: > > jedgar 2000/02/12 13:50:43 PST > > > > ports/devel/kdevelop - Imported sources > > Update of /home/ncvs/ports/devel/kdevelop > > In directory freefall.freebsd.org:/c/users/jedgar/work/kdevelop > > > > Log Message: > > This is the non-i18n version of kdevelop, a complete > > IDE, made primarily for the K Desktop Environment. > > It seems to be quite comparable to CodeWarrior Pro > > on Windows/MacOS. Paired with kdbg, ktranslator, > > and other helper apps, it makes one heck of a > > powerful KDE/Qt application developer. > > Sounds too good to be true, time for kde again? > > If this is from personal experiance, I'd like to check it out, > however if the description is gleamed from freshmeat i'd rather > not waste my time. :) > > Does it do qt/kde widgets like Borland's stuff? > Well, it's not quite Delphi's IDE, but provides a decent integrated environment for developing visual (kde) apps (the above quote is from pkg/DESCR, not from experience). It seems to provide Delphi-like functionality WRT editing/compiling/debugging but doesn't appear to have the drag-n-drop visual development stuff. Personally, I still prefer vi/make to all this fancy integrated stuff, but I'm sure this has it's place too :) ----- Chris D. Faulhaber - jedgar@fxp.org - jedgar@FreeBSD.org -------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD: The Power To Serve - http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 15:17:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846E03D7C; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA80049; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:15:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:15:57 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Protection against dDoS attacks? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000212173227.00bb7ad0@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > http://news.excite.com/news/zd/000211/17/if-you-cant > > there are some news about some Solaris/Linux software that has been written > by US agency to protect ccomputers against the agents needes for dDoS attacks. > But Source will be closed. Actually these are programs to check whether you're running some of the common DDoS agents - it doesn't protect against them, i.e. stop you from being vulnerable to infection by them (since they're installed manually by crackers). To protect against them you need to actually secure your machine and your network, heaven forbid :-) > Any comments? There was a post to bugtraq by aleph1 which discusses the whole DDoS issue and what tools are currently available - if you'd like I could forward it to you. Kris ---- "How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?" "Eight!" "That was a rhetorical question!" "Oh..then, seven!" -- Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 12 15:42:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (ftp.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58F63FEF; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (tetron02.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA91290; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:43:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from zeus@tetronsoftware.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:43:12 -0600 (CST) From: Gene Harris To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/devel/kdevelop - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <20000212144658.K17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ummm... I've been doing M$ VC for too long. Does Borland have something that runs on FreeBSD or Linux??? Yes, I live under a rock, don't ask! ;-) *==============================================* *Gene Harris http://www.tetronsoftware.com* * Home of TeamAccess version control for * * Microsoft Office 97 and 2000 * * FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE - The Power to Serve * * Redhat 6.1 Secure Web Server * *==============================================* On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Chris D. Faulhaber [000212 14:18] wrote: > > jedgar 2000/02/12 13:50:43 PST > > > > ports/devel/kdevelop - Imported sources > > Update of /home/ncvs/ports/devel/kdevelop > > In directory freefall.freebsd.org:/c/users/jedgar/work/kdevelop > > > > Log Message: > > This is the non-i18n version of kdevelop, a complete > > IDE, made primarily for the K Desktop Environment. > > It seems to be quite comparable to CodeWarrior Pro > > on Windows/MacOS. Paired with kdbg, ktranslator, > > and other helper apps, it makes one heck of a > > powerful KDE/Qt application developer. > > Sounds too good to be true, time for kde again? > > If this is from personal experiance, I'd like to check it out, > however if the description is gleamed from freshmeat i'd rather > not waste my time. :) > > Does it do qt/kde widgets like Borland's stuff? > > *perk* > > -Alfred > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 2:26:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.surf1.de (mail.Surf1.de [194.25.165.21]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B5884011; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from cichlids.com (pC19F546B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [193.159.84.107]) by mail.surf1.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18020; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:27:08 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35221AC26; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:27:24 +0100 (CET) Received: (from alex@localhost) by cichlids.cichlids.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA04122; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:28:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:28:15 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: Gene Harris Cc: Alfred Perlstein , "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/devel/kdevelop - Imported sources Message-ID: <20000213112815.H3200@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Gene Harris , Alfred Perlstein , "Chris D. Faulhaber" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000212144658.K17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from zeus@tetronsoftware.com on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 05:43:12PM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Gene Harris (zeus@tetronsoftware.com): > Ummm... I've been doing M$ VC for too long. Does Borland > have something that runs on FreeBSD or Linux??? Soon, probably, since Corel bought Borland. Alex -- I need a new ~/.sig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 2:36:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tango.SoftHome.net (tango.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.49]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3770C4192 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9696 invoked by uid 417); 13 Feb 2000 10:37:32 -0000 Received: from 117.ppp1-18.image.dk (HELO softhome.net) (212.54.77.245) by smtpb.softhome.net with SMTP; 13 Feb 2000 10:37:32 -0000 Message-ID: <38A689B5.3C471A68@softhome.net> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:38:45 +0100 From: Guan Yang X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en, da MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am considering purchasing a SPARCstation 10, just for the fun of it, but I know absolutely nothing about Sun hardware. So: Can I attach a normal PC monitor to such a beast? -- "Speed is subsittute fo accurancy." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 9:12:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 032FB4287 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3072 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2000 17:12:02 -0000 Received: from userbk23.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.144.31) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2000 17:12:02 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA00433; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:11:44 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:11:44 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Guan Yang Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? Message-ID: <20000213171144.A326@marder-1> References: <38A689B5.3C471A68@softhome.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <38A689B5.3C471A68@softhome.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 11:38:45AM +0100, Guan Yang wrote: > I am considering purchasing a SPARCstation 10, just for the fun of it, > but I know absolutely nothing about Sun hardware. > > So: Can I attach a normal PC monitor to such a beast? Possibly. Sun monitors are fixed frequency. Also they use 3W13 connectors. > -- > "Speed is subsittute fo accurancy." > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 10:51:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E044450 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA03802; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:50:22 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Mark Ovens Cc: Guan Yang , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? Message-ID: <20000213105022.A3729@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <38A689B5.3C471A68@softhome.net> <20000213171144.A326@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000213171144.A326@marder-1>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 05:11:44PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 05:11:44PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 11:38:45AM +0100, Guan Yang wrote: > > I am considering purchasing a SPARCstation 10, just for the fun of it, > > but I know absolutely nothing about Sun hardware. > > > > So: Can I attach a normal PC monitor to such a beast? > > Possibly. Sun monitors are fixed frequency. Also they use 3W13 > connectors. This used to be the case. The SPARCstation 10 has a SVGA connector and one can hook up a multisync PC monitor to them. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 11: 1:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queeg.ludd.luth.se (queeg.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.109]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530E63DD5 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from speedy.ludd.luth.se (pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.164]) by queeg.ludd.luth.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27367; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:01:43 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200002131901.UAA27367@queeg.ludd.luth.se> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? In-Reply-To: Message from Josef Grosch of "Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:50:22 PST." <20000213105022.A3729@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:01:42 +0100 From: Mattias Pantzare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 05:11:44PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 11:38:45AM +0100, Guan Yang wrote: > > > I am considering purchasing a SPARCstation 10, just for the fun of it, > > > but I know absolutely nothing about Sun hardware. > > > > > > So: Can I attach a normal PC monitor to such a beast? > > > > Possibly. Sun monitors are fixed frequency. Also they use 3W13 > > connectors. > > This used to be the case. The SPARCstation 10 has a SVGA connector and one > can hook up a multisync PC monitor to them. No. Ultra 10 has a SVGA connector. If you don't get better graphics on it, then it will probably have 3W13. SPARCstation 10 is not sold anymore... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 11:44:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD043E9C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id E5E987558; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AE51D8A for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:47:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:47:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <20000210212329.A4718@wallnet.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Christopher S. Weimann wrote: :(This section is by Richard Stallman.) : :Sometimes a few of the users try to hold total power over all the :rest. For example, in 1984, a few users at the MIT AI lab decided to :seize power by changing the operator password on the Twenex system and :keeping it secret from everyone else. (I was able to thwart this coup :and give power back to the users by patching the kernel, but I wouldn't :know how to do that in Unix.) I don't know why the hell MIT didn't toss him out on his ass for this. The UNI CS dept. I worked for would've tossed him so fast and hard he'd have bounced twice. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 11:56:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A073F31 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 85754755E; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AD61D8A; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:00:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:00:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Josef Grosch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? In-Reply-To: <20000213105022.A3729@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Josef Grosch wrote: :This used to be the case. The SPARCstation 10 has a SVGA connector and one :can hook up a multisync PC monitor to them. Are you thinking of the Ultra 10's? The Sparc[Server|Station] 10's I've worked with had cgX cards in them with 13w3 connectors on them or mono. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 12:20:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DAD47A3 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02615; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:20:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000213125027.03d60480@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:20:11 -0700 To: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: References: <20000210212329.A4718@wallnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:47 PM 2/13/2000 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >:Sometimes a few of the users try to hold total power over all the >:rest. For example, in 1984, a few users at the MIT AI lab decided to >:seize power by changing the operator password on the Twenex system and >:keeping it secret from everyone else. (I was able to thwart this coup >:and give power back to the users by patching the kernel, but I wouldn't >:know how to do that in Unix.) > >I don't know why the hell MIT didn't toss him out on his ass for this. >The UNI CS dept. I worked for would've tossed him so fast and hard he'd >have bounced twice. Ah. TWENEX, the predecessor of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, succeeded ITS as the timesharing operating system used by MIT's machines when they began to use DECSystem-10's.) ITS had no passwords, and anyone could kill the entire system and mess up what others were doing. TWENEX had passwords, which Richard considered to be a travesty. What did Stallman do? People who were at MIT at the time report that Stallman decrypted password files and sent messages to users exhorting them to use a null string instead. He also hacked the system so that it would echo users' passwords to a public accessible system console as they logged in -- perhaps the first documented case of "password sniffing." Steven Levy's book "Hackers" describes other ways in which Stallman fought security measures. He writes: Stallman kept fighting, trying, he said, "to delay the fascist advances with every method I could." Though his official systems programming duties were equally divided between the computer science department and the AI Lab, he went "on strike" against the Lab for Computer Science because of their security policy. When he came out with a new version of his EMACS editor, he refused to let the computer science lab use it. This pattern survives in the GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 13:41:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 33CFF406C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:41:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 21468 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2000 21:41:46 -0000 Received: from useram74.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.134.246) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2000 21:41:46 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00509; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:41:28 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:41:27 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Josef Grosch Cc: Guan Yang , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? Message-ID: <20000213214127.A326@marder-1> References: <38A689B5.3C471A68@softhome.net> <20000213171144.A326@marder-1> <20000213105022.A3729@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000213105022.A3729@mooseriver.com> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 10:50:22AM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 05:11:44PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 11:38:45AM +0100, Guan Yang wrote: > > > I am considering purchasing a SPARCstation 10, just for the fun of it, > > > but I know absolutely nothing about Sun hardware. > > > > > > So: Can I attach a normal PC monitor to such a beast? > > > > Possibly. Sun monitors are fixed frequency. Also they use 3W13 > > connectors. > > This used to be the case. The SPARCstation 10 has a SVGA connector and one > can hook up a multisync PC monitor to them. > I think it actually depends on the graphics card installed. I'll check my Sparc10 tomorrow. It only has the standard graphics card (8-bit colour) and I'm sure it's got a 3W13 (or is it 13W3? I can never remember). Maybe the high-end graphics option, GX(?), uses an SVGA connector. > > Josef > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 13:57:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (mail2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563B74136 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-71.passer-angel.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.47.71] helo=lungfish.freeserve.co.uk) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 12K70y-0007sE-00; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:57:12 +0000 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.freeserve.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01053; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:19:03 GMT (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20000213141903.01269@lungfish.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:19:03 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Guan Yang , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? References: <38A689B5.3C471A68@softhome.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <38A689B5.3C471A68@softhome.net>; from Guan Yang on Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 11:38:45AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 11:38:45AM +0100, Guan Yang wrote: > I am considering purchasing a SPARCstation 10, just for the fun of it, > but I know absolutely nothing about Sun hardware. > > So: Can I attach a normal PC monitor to such a beast? Yes, if the monitor supports whatever resolution/scan rate the Sun put out. A lot of the older ones used weird (fixed) resolutions; the SS10 might be a bit more sensible. You'll also need an adapter to convert from the Sun 13W3 video connector to SVGA. Anyplace that specialises in cables 'n' connectors should be able to round one of those up. A good place to start for questions like this would be www.sunhelp.com. I trust you're going to install some kind of BSD on this beast? Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" s.mitchell@computer.org | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 14:12:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997D1406C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04928; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:12:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:12:21 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? Message-ID: <20000213141221.A4824@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20000213105022.A3729@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 12:00:11PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 12:00:11PM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Josef Grosch wrote: > > :This used to be the case. The SPARCstation 10 has a SVGA connector and one > :can hook up a multisync PC monitor to them. > > Are you thinking of the Ultra 10's? The Sparc[Server|Station] 10's I've > worked with had cgX cards in them with 13w3 connectors on them or mono. Yes, I am thinking of an Ultra 10. The SPARCstation 10 does come with 13w3 instead of a SVGA connector. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 16:12:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (hydrant.intranova.net [209.201.95.10]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 87E223DC1 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:12:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 41142 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2000 00:12:11 -0000 Received: from localhost (oogali@127.0.0.1) by hydrant.intranova.net with SMTP; 14 Feb 2000 00:12:11 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:12:11 -0500 (EST) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Guan Yang Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? In-Reply-To: <38A689B5.3C471A68@softhome.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Guan Yang wrote: > I am considering purchasing a SPARCstation 10, just for the fun of it, > but I know absolutely nothing about Sun hardware. > > So: Can I attach a normal PC monitor to such a beast? > Yes, get a 13w3 Male to HD15/SVGA Female connector and you're set. P.S. Wrong mailing list. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 16:13:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (hydrant.intranova.net [209.201.95.10]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC2963D8E for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 41157 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2000 00:12:46 -0000 Received: from localhost (oogali@127.0.0.1) by hydrant.intranova.net with SMTP; 14 Feb 2000 00:12:46 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:12:45 -0500 (EST) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Josef Grosch Cc: Mark Ovens , Guan Yang , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? In-Reply-To: <20000213105022.A3729@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 05:11:44PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 11:38:45AM +0100, Guan Yang wrote: > > > I am considering purchasing a SPARCstation 10, just for the fun of it, > > > but I know absolutely nothing about Sun hardware. > > > > > > So: Can I attach a normal PC monitor to such a beast? > > > > Possibly. Sun monitors are fixed frequency. Also they use 3W13 > > connectors. > > This used to be the case. The SPARCstation 10 has a SVGA connector and one > can hook up a multisync PC monitor to them. > > > Josef > > Not all SPARCstation's have SVGA connectors, it depends on the graphics card that came with it. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 16:14:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (hydrant.intranova.net [209.201.95.10]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 274C13E1D for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 41184 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2000 00:14:20 -0000 Received: from localhost (oogali@127.0.0.1) by hydrant.intranova.net with SMTP; 14 Feb 2000 00:14:20 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:14:20 -0500 (EST) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Josef Grosch Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ot] SPARCstation with PC monitor? In-Reply-To: <20000213141221.A4824@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 12:00:11PM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > :This used to be the case. The SPARCstation 10 has a SVGA connector and one > > :can hook up a multisync PC monitor to them. > > > > Are you thinking of the Ultra 10's? The Sparc[Server|Station] 10's I've > > worked with had cgX cards in them with 13w3 connectors on them or mono. > > Yes, I am thinking of an Ultra 10. The SPARCstation 10 does come with 13w3 > instead of a SVGA connector. > > > Josef > > But you can get a SVGA MBus card so it depends on how you or the previous owner configured it. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Omachonu Ogali oogali@intranova.net | | Intranova Networking Group http://tribune.intranova.net | | PGP Key ID: 0xBFE60839 | | PGP Fingerprint: C8 51 14 FD 2A 87 53 D1 E3 AA 12 12 01 93 BD 34 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 13 18:16:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60916488C for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.51]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA66D9 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:16:21 -0500 Message-ID: <38A7657D.2340A11E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:16:29 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: X under Java Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It sounds ridiculous (+ it's GPL'd), but it exists: http://www.jcraft.com/weirdx/ an X server for Java, and someone ran it on FreeBSD. enjoy, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 15:25: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36464C4B for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA26238; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:16:25 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000215001504.00a367e0@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:17:09 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: CNet Report about latest Yahoo dDoS, interview with programmer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi! Well, stumbled over this article: http://2.digital.cnet.com/cgi-bin2/flo?x=dKKAmhuKKwomgAuu There Cnet does some interview with the author of some DoS tools. Comments? Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 16: 1:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF0C4DF9 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:21:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16306 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:21:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000214162124.03e2ca50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:21:46 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Fwd: IBM denies non-GPL licensing of JFS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just received the following message from IBM. Apparently, for reasons unknown, IBM is declining to license JFS under even its own "IBM Public License," but is insisting upon using the GPL only. This is especially ironic and unfortunate because IBM derived the TCP/IP stack for OS/2 from that of NetBSD. Hopefully, in the future, IBM will be more willing to release source under licenses which do not hurt some open source projects while favoring others. --Brett Glass >From: shaggy@us.ibm.com >X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMUS >To: bsd@us.ibm.com >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:03:40 -0600 > > > >To all those interested in an alternate source license for JFS, > >Thank you for your interest in open sourcing the IBM JFS under a non-GPL >license as well as GPL. We have decided not to do this at this time for a >variety of internal IBM reasons. Although this didn't work out, we're >certainly open to hearing similar suggestions in the future. > >Thanks, >Dave > >Dave Kleikamp >Open Source Development >(512)838-3184 T/L 678-3184 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 16:26:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cliff.i-plus.net (cliff.i-plus.net [209.100.20.42]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BEBE4CE1 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from phat (77.dialup19.picus.com [207.7.91.134]) by cliff.i-plus.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA94327 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:14:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:13:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today, I had my first experience with Solaris. Had to install and configure it. This is like asking a rank-amature mac user to install and configure Windows NT 3.51. Solaris is a joke! The installation process asked for some networking stuff, but never bothered to ask for a default route. Had to put this in manually at first, but later found out that you had to create /etc/defaultrouter (or some such crap). What a configuration scheme... one directive per file. OUCH! Then, I went to add a user. This went ok, but when I went to use chpass to edit the user information, I see that it's not in root's default path (still haven't figured out where they have it). Had to use vipw, which pulled up some lame-ass GUI editor by default. Talk about nasty. I'd rather use ee. Can anyone tell me just how the hell Sun manages to sell this crap? Or are people addicted to the hardware, and suffer the OS for that reason? *sigh* I'd just as soon trade this thing in for a beefy FreeBSD box (or even NT!), but the software we gotta run is only for Solaris. -Troy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 16:49: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (www.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F7DE4AE9 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20499 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:24:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11294 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:41:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:41:06 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Charlie Root kernel log messages: > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 This is supposedly "Retail" Win2K, but it has no idea where to send ARPs. Lucky for it that the gateway machine is connected across both LANs. :-) /kris TGIFreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 17: 7:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA6B4A47 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18554; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:56:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:56:44 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Troy Settle Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000214165644.B7643@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: ; from troy@picus.com on Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:13:37PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:13:37PM -0500, Troy Settle wrote: > > Today, I had my first experience with Solaris. Had to install and > configure it. > > This is like asking a rank-amature mac user to install and configure > Windows NT 3.51. Solaris is a joke! > > The installation process asked for some networking stuff, but never > bothered to ask for a default route. Had to put this in manually at > first, but later found out that you had to create /etc/defaultrouter (or > some such crap). What a configuration scheme... one directive per file. > OUCH! The default configuration of a solaris box is kinda lame, but there are number of things like about it's installer over sysinstall. I've found that the steepest part of the learning curve for Solaris is in the initial setup phase. It's much easier if you have someone to ask about the quirks. > Then, I went to add a user. This went ok, but when I went to use chpass > to edit the user information, I see that it's not in root's default path > (still haven't figured out where they have it). Had to use vipw, which > pulled up some lame-ass GUI editor by default. Talk about nasty. I'd > rather use ee. I assume that GUI think was dtedit or something like it. My first rule of surviving Solaris is don't run CDE. In fact, don't run CDE is probably my first three rules. ;-) Infact, if the box has work to do, running X is generally a bad idea without tons of RAM. I've seen the X server hit more then 150MB on my Ultra 10. Add that to netscape and staroffice with a powerpoint presentation open and you'll swap a 256MB system to death. > Can anyone tell me just how the hell Sun manages to sell this crap? Or > are people addicted to the hardware, and suffer the OS for that reason? > > *sigh* > > I'd just as soon trade this thing in for a beefy FreeBSD box (or even > NT!), but the software we gotta run is only for Solaris. It's frankly not that bad. The big hardware is very nice in a number of applications and once you're use to the OS it's not that hard to live with. I'd certaintly take it over NT, and quite possiably over Linux, but I'd rather have an equivelently priced FreeBSD box built to my specs then the Ultra 10 in my office. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 17: 7:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C814BF0 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA79554; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:57:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:57:20 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000213125027.03d60480@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > Ah. TWENEX, the predecessor of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, succeeded ITS as Only of TOPS-20. TOPS-10 is a different animal. It shipped with source, by the way. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 17:37: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD7814129 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA85563; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:36:47 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:36:47 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Troy Settle Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Troy Settle wrote: > Then, I went to add a user. This went ok, but when I went to use chpass > to edit the user information, I see that it's not in root's default path > (still haven't figured out where they have it). Had to use vipw, which > pulled up some lame-ass GUI editor by default. Talk about nasty. I'd > rather use ee. # exec ksh # set -o vi # EDITOR=vi # export EDITOR Will make your life much happier. > > Can anyone tell me just how the hell Sun manages to sell this crap? Or > are people addicted to the hardware, and suffer the OS for that reason? > The hardware sucks, and costs too much. The OS is, however, UNIX(TM), so it's moderatly stable, and the enviornment can be made usable. I don't at all mind having a solaris box on my desktop, though I use the FreeBSD one except to do interoperability stuff, and to test the user enviornment. Out of the box, the user enviornment sucks. Most solaris shops have been using it forever, and have all sorts of customizations . I think the same is true of most useful operating systems. Even a default FreeBSD installation isn't very usable -- as a user enviornment. The upside is that it is possible to make work the way that I want it to, and isn't much effort. This box has 145 packages installed on it. The box on my desk at work likely has twice that, and I don't have gnome or the KDE installed. > *sigh* > > I'd just as soon trade this thing in for a beefy FreeBSD box (or even > NT!), but the software we gotta run is only for Solaris. I suspect that you will take the NT comment back. If not now, soo. System V.3.2 is nicer to deal with than NT. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 17:48:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A7C3DFC for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA87109; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:49:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:49:12 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brooks Davis Cc: Troy Settle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000214165644.B7643@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Brooks Davis wrote: > I assume that GUI think was dtedit or something like it. My first rule > of surviving Solaris is don't run CDE. In fact, don't run CDE is > probably my first three rules. ;-) Infact, if the box has work to do, > running X is generally a bad idea without tons of RAM. I've seen the X > server hit more then 150MB on my Ultra 10. Add that to netscape and > staroffice with a powerpoint presentation open and you'll swap a 256MB > system to death. Of course, I have had a Sun fall over with repeatable panics because the text console on CGSIX Framebuffer couldn't keep up with it's messages.o I do hompe they have fixed that by now. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 18:18: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D4E3E64 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19836; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:18:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:18:15 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: David Scheidt Cc: Troy Settle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000214181815.B15442@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: <20000214165644.B7643@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:49:12PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:49:12PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Brooks Davis wrote: > > > I assume that GUI think was dtedit or something like it. My first rule > > of surviving Solaris is don't run CDE. In fact, don't run CDE is > > probably my first three rules. ;-) Infact, if the box has work to do, > > running X is generally a bad idea without tons of RAM. I've seen the X > > server hit more then 150MB on my Ultra 10. Add that to netscape and > > staroffice with a powerpoint presentation open and you'll swap a 256MB > > system to death. > > Of course, I have had a Sun fall over with repeatable panics because the > text console on CGSIX Framebuffer couldn't keep up with it's messages.o > > I do hompe they have fixed that by now. Probalby not. ;-) I'd just run it headless, the serial port is one thing they seem to have done right. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 18:24:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669B3405B for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:24:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04266; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:52:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:52:55 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brooks Davis Cc: David Scheidt , Troy Settle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000214185255.E17536@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000214165644.B7643@orion.ac.hmc.edu> <20000214181815.B15442@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000214181815.B15442@orion.ac.hmc.edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 06:18:15PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brooks Davis [000214 18:46] wrote: > On Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:49:12PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Brooks Davis wrote: > > > > > I assume that GUI think was dtedit or something like it. My first rule > > > of surviving Solaris is don't run CDE. In fact, don't run CDE is > > > probably my first three rules. ;-) Infact, if the box has work to do, > > > running X is generally a bad idea without tons of RAM. I've seen the X > > > server hit more then 150MB on my Ultra 10. Add that to netscape and > > > staroffice with a powerpoint presentation open and you'll swap a 256MB > > > system to death. > > > > Of course, I have had a Sun fall over with repeatable panics because the > > text console on CGSIX Framebuffer couldn't keep up with it's messages.o > > > > I do hompe they have fixed that by now. > > Probalby not. ;-) I'd just run it headless, the serial port is one > thing they seem to have done right. uh you mean where it misinterprets disconnect as break? lovely... -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 18:29:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673AC3D3A for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=propro) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12KXjw-000MH0-00; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 02:29:25 +0000 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:29:24 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Schneiders To: Troy Settle Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Troy Settle wrote: > > Today, I had my first experience with Solaris. Had to install and > configure it. > > This is like asking a rank-amature mac user to install and configure > Windows NT 3.51. Solaris is a joke! > > The installation process asked for some networking stuff, but never > bothered to ask for a default route. Had to put this in manually at > first, but later found out that you had to create /etc/defaultrouter (or > some such crap). What a configuration scheme... one directive per file. > OUCH! This is not uncommon in BSD either :-) See e.g. OpenBSD /etc/mygate. -- Marc Schneiders marc@venster.nl http://zelf.net marc@oldserver.demon.nl propro 3:26am up 7 days, 5:37, load average: 2.33 2.09 2.07 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 21:15:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F18E40D1 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:15:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.57]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5F6A; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:15:32 -0500 Message-ID: <38A8A539.F12C6101@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:00:41 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fwd: IBM denies non-GPL licensing of JFS References: <4.2.2.20000214162124.03e2ca50@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW (I received the same message), I sent them a link to the MozPL FAQ. I don't have a particular preference for that license, but their FAQ does raise some interesting points regarding the GPL vs BSD "debate". cheers, Pedro. Brett Glass wrote: > > Just received the following message from IBM. Apparently, for reasons > unknown, IBM is declining to license JFS under even its own "IBM > Public License," but is insisting upon using the GPL only. This > is especially ironic and unfortunate because IBM derived the TCP/IP > stack for OS/2 from that of NetBSD. Hopefully, in the future, IBM > will be more willing to release source under licenses which do not > hurt some open source projects while favoring others. > > --Brett Glass > > >From: shaggy@us.ibm.com > >X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMUS > >To: bsd@us.ibm.com > >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:03:40 -0600 > > > > > > > >To all those interested in an alternate source license for JFS, > > > >Thank you for your interest in open sourcing the IBM JFS under a non-GPL > >license as well as GPL. We have decided not to do this at this time for a > >variety of internal IBM reasons. Although this didn't work out, we're > >certainly open to hearing similar suggestions in the future. > > > >Thanks, > >Dave > > > >Dave Kleikamp > >Open Source Development > >(512)838-3184 T/L 678-3184 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 21:27:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196973E97 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20346; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:27:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000214222418.04a7f900@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:27:51 -0700 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000213125027.03d60480@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As I recall, TOPS-20 emulated both TOPS-10 and TENEX/TWENEX. --Brett At 05:57 PM 2/14/2000 , David Scheidt wrote: >On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > Ah. TWENEX, the predecessor of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, succeeded ITS as > >Only of TOPS-20. TOPS-10 is a different animal. It shipped with source, by >the way. > >David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 14 22:28:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5811D4163 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:28:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA21449; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:28:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:28:50 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000214222418.04a7f900@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > As I recall, TOPS-20 emulated both TOPS-10 and TENEX/TWENEX. It ran user-mode TOPS-10 programs through a system call translator, not unlike what FreeBSD does for Linux support. TOPS-10 had some features that made is superior to TOPS-20, like better SMP support. > > > At 05:57 PM 2/14/2000 , David Scheidt wrote: > > >On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > > > > Ah. TWENEX, the predecessor of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, succeeded ITS as > > > >Only of TOPS-20. TOPS-10 is a different animal. It shipped with source, by > >the way. > > > >David Scheidt > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 0: 4:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0B94196 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:04:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA53135 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200002150805.AAA53135@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 0:37:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clever.visp-europe.psi.com (clever.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.4]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C60BD420C for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip57.berlin70.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.70.57] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by clever.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12KdUH-0001hc-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:37:37 +0100 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 3323B13D; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:37:36 +0100 (CET) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! References: <20000214165644.B7643@orion.ac.hmc.edu> From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 15 Feb 2000 09:37:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brooks Davis's message of "Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:56:44 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brooks Davis writes: [Solaris] > The big hardware is very nice in a number of applications and once > you're use to the OS it's not that hard to live with. I'd > certaintly take it over NT, and quite possiably over Linux, but > I'd rather have an equivelently priced FreeBSD box built to my > specs then the Ultra 10 in my office. Same for me. I have worked quite a lot with Solaris during the last two years, and while I do prefer FreeBSD, most things with Solaris are just a matter of habit and taste, and once you get used to it, it is quite a nice system. Having one file per configuration item isn't that bad once you get used to it. (Setting the default gateway with "echo routername > /etc/defaultrouter" isn't easily beaten in terms of speed! :-) Set EDITOR=vi and vipw won't get back to you with nasty surprises. Most of the configuration things can be found with something like "find /etc -type f | xargs grep mumble". I did that a lot. That was way faster most of the time than calling up the Answerbook and yielded a definite answer. But still, sure, a real screamer box with FreeBSD would be great. [Like my PC at work. Which is running under NT. Sigh.] -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 0:41:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20AD4215 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:41:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip57.berlin70.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.70.57] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12KdYi-0005wD-00; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:42:12 +0100 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id A6EB93ED; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:42:11 +0100 (CET) To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is References: From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 15 Feb 2000 09:42:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: Kris Kirby's message of "Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:41:06 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > This is supposedly "Retail" Win2K, but it has no idea where to send ARPs. > Lucky for it that the gateway machine is connected across both LANs. :-) I saw this a lot from a FreeBSD box (3.4-RELEASE) that was connected to the same Ethernet segment with two NICs (in different logical networks). It really got on my nerves, and Windows 2000 was not involved. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 2:31:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from terminal.sil.at (terminal.sil.at [194.152.178.15]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4894641C5 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 02:31:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from terminal.sil.at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by terminal.sil.at (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA12850; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:31:44 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200002151031.LAA12850@terminal.sil.at> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 01/07/2000 To: Brooks Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-reply-to: brooks's message of Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:56:44 -0800. <20000214165644.B7643@orion.ac.hmc.edu> X-Face: "0|_!}6Ay;=lSa@qs\q$u2RZUTyW(m(?80f[OF3eR:4uk6rd&+9lUw"6ACgq]hyak/Io Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:13:37PM -0500, Troy Settle wrote: > > > > Today, I had my first experience with Solaris. Had to install and > > configure it. > > > > This is like asking a rank-amature mac user to install and configure > > Windows NT 3.51. Solaris is a joke! well had the same feeling at the begin but I got used to it and its not that bad as everyone says. > > The installation process asked for some networking stuff, but never > > bothered to ask for a default route. Had to put this in manually at > > first, but later found out that you had to create /etc/defaultrouter (or > > some such crap). What a configuration scheme... one directive per file. > > OUCH! > > The default configuration of a solaris box is kinda lame, but there are > number of things like about it's installer over sysinstall. I've found > that the steepest part of the learning curve for Solaris is in the > initial setup phase. It's much easier if you have someone to ask about > the quirks. > > > Then, I went to add a user. This went ok, but when I went to use chpass > > to edit the user information, I see that it's not in root's default path > > (still haven't figured out where they have it). Had to use vipw, which > > pulled up some lame-ass GUI editor by default. Talk about nasty. I'd > > rather use ee. > > I assume that GUI think was dtedit or something like it. My first rule > of surviving Solaris is don't run CDE. In fact, don't run CDE is > probably my first three rules. ;-) Infact, if the box has work to do, > running X is generally a bad idea without tons of RAM. I've seen the X > server hit more then 150MB on my Ultra 10. Add that to netscape and > staroffice with a powerpoint presentation open and you'll swap a 256MB > system to death. Well the good thing here is: Im using Solaris here as XDMlogin server and have to admit that Ive never seen a system running so smooth with 236megs of real RAM and half a gig of swapspace in use than this one. I swaps a lot but you dont _feel_ that it is swapping... and its a quite cheap intel box with pretty slow and old 2gig scsi drives. Seems the VM-subsystem really rocks. I would use FreeBSD for this whole task if there would be some official Java support for other OSes than Solaris/NT. Java on Linux/BSD is pretty useless. > > Can anyone tell me just how the hell Sun manages to sell this crap? Or > > are people addicted to the hardware, and suffer the OS for that reason? > > > > *sigh* > > > > I'd just as soon trade this thing in for a beefy FreeBSD box (or even > > NT!), but the software we gotta run is only for Solaris. > > It's frankly not that bad. The big hardware is very nice in a number of > applications and once you're use to the OS it's not that hard to live > with. I'd certaintly take it over NT, and quite possiably over Linux, > but I'd rather have an equivelently priced FreeBSD box built to my specs > then the Ultra 10 in my office. jup. never underestimate a Sun-Boot-PROM .... *gg* I dont use Sun hardware since they switched to PCI/PC-crap ... love the IPC/IPX/SS1/2/5/SBus stuff. later, cjm -- SILVER SERVER \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\ \\ \ cjm@sil.at www.sil.at -- PGP-Key-ID: 0xA941452D - CJM17(-RIPE),SIL-MNT http://www.enemy.org -- You can't spell evil with vi. Can you? - No, my name is John Rambo. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 4:27:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF704288 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 04:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A29067558; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 04:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9063E1D8A; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 04:31:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 04:31:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15 Feb 2000, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: :Having one file per configuration item isn't that bad once you get :used to it. (Setting the default gateway with "echo routername > :/etc/defaultrouter" isn't easily beaten in terms of speed! :-) Set :EDITOR=vi and vipw won't get back to you with nasty surprises. Having started life on SunOS 4, I don't have any real problems with Solaris' configuration style. It hasn't changed since Sun was a bsd 4.2 system with 4.3 enhancements. As for adding a user in Solaris, I've always been partial to vi /etc/passwd ; pwconv. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 5:49:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (www.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541DD4220 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 05:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09499; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:33:28 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18885; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:49:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:49:43 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I saw this a lot from a FreeBSD box (3.4-RELEASE) that was connected > to the same Ethernet segment with two NICs (in different logical > networks). It really got on my nerves, and Windows 2000 was not > involved. The difference with this example is that the Win2K box was *not* attached to just one segment. Two NICs, two LANs. Not both on one LAN. ---- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 8: 7:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796EA4B69 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:07:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA03820; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:05:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA39aqlh; Tue Feb 15 09:05:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19336; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:05:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002151605.JAA19336@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux To: dscheidt@enteract.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:05:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "David Scheidt" at Feb 14, 2000 06:57:20 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Ah. TWENEX, the predecessor of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, succeeded ITS as > > Only of TOPS-20. TOPS-10 is a different animal. It shipped with source, by > the way. BLISS is ignornace. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 9:36:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563A65286 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02303; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:31:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:31:59 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Brooks Davis , David Scheidt , Troy Settle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000214185255.E17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > uh you mean where it misinterprets disconnect as break? FreeBSD does the same exact thing! (with options BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER that is.) Figure it could have anything to do with how 'break' is done on a serial line? If you've got people rebooting your console servers then you've got other problems. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 10: 7: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (www.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AB94AFB for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16993; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:45:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21122; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:01:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:01:27 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Joe Greco Cc: Peter Wemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filesystem size limit? In-Reply-To: <200002151608.KAA54469@aurora.sol.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I figured somebody'd have a fast, smart answer :-) Is this one of those "three things, pick two" things? :-) > The trick to fsck is that you don't want more inodes than you really need. > Once you get past that, fsck flies. The previous generation of binaries > server, worked on 27 36GB drives split into 10 partitions, designed for > parallelism. Hit RESET and the news filesystems take ~30 seconds to fsck. 10 partitions? How do you accomplish this? BSD disklabel is only 8, and DOS is 4. I could see > 20 this way, but it seems a waste on a *real* machine. (PS: How many procs? How much RAM?) ---- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 11:50:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aurora.sol.net (aurora.sol.net [206.55.65.76]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8344B5375 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:36:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by aurora.sol.net (8.9.2/8.9.2/SNNS-1.02) id MAA64919; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:36:54 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <200002151836.MAA64919@aurora.sol.net> Subject: Re: Filesystem size limit? In-Reply-To: from Kris Kirby at "Feb 15, 2000 12: 1:27 pm" To: kris@hiwaay.net (Kris Kirby) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:36:54 -0600 (CST) Cc: peter@netplex.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I figured somebody'd have a fast, smart answer :-) > > Is this one of those "three things, pick two" things? :-) > > > The trick to fsck is that you don't want more inodes than you really need. > > Once you get past that, fsck flies. The previous generation of binaries > > server, worked on 27 36GB drives split into 10 partitions, designed for > > parallelism. Hit RESET and the news filesystems take ~30 seconds to fsck. > > 10 partitions? How do you accomplish this? BSD disklabel is only 8, and > DOS is 4. I could see > 20 this way, but it seems a waste on a *real* > machine. (PS: How many procs? How much RAM?) I meant 10 filesystems. I shouldn't send mail when I've been up so many hours (I didn't realize that the hardware had arrived until I was just about ready to leave for the day, and then built a 1.8TB server with removable drive modules and all the extras). You can do 10 partitions: /dev/da1s1d 7847616 1521664 5698144 21% /news /dev/da1s2e 93656576 83496896 2667168 97% /news/spool/news/N.00 /dev/da1s2f 93656576 83900832 2263232 97% /news/spool/news/N.01 /dev/da1s2g 93656576 83749792 2414272 97% /news/spool/news/N.02 /dev/da1s2h 93656576 83566928 2597136 97% /news/spool/news/N.03 /dev/da1s3e 93656576 83991808 2172256 97% /news/spool/news/N.04 /dev/da1s3f 93656576 83811168 2352896 97% /news/spool/news/N.05 /dev/da1s3g 93656576 84474864 1689200 98% /news/spool/news/N.06 /dev/da1s3h 93656576 83931312 2232752 97% /news/spool/news/N.07 on one of the old Mylex DAC960SX SCSI-SCSI controllers. Use multiple slices. There's invisible slices for copies of the OS boot drive too. This is one of the machines being replaced with what's below. I'm doing /dev/vinum/news 14149612 9705 14139907 0% /news /dev/vinum/n0 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.00 /dev/vinum/n1 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.01 /dev/vinum/n2 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.02 /dev/vinum/n3 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.03 /dev/vinum/n4 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.04 /dev/vinum/n5 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.05 /dev/vinum/n6 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.06 /dev/vinum/n7 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.07 /dev/vinum/n8 192125401 2 192125399 0% /news/spool/news/N.08 on the new machines, a pair of AHA-3940UW's talking to 4 shelves of 9 50GB drives each, and vinum to stripe each of the drives together, cross-wise across the busses (i.e. scbus1:0, 2:0, 3:0, 4:0 striped, 1:1, 2:1,...) To get a redundant /news partition, I take 768MB from each drive, stripe them together as two plexes, and the plexes are mirrored. Losing a single drive will therefore trash the corresponding "N.0x" filesystem, causing me to lose 1/9th my spool, but it won't cause me to lose history. Additional note: vinum can be used as a great way to put many "partitions" on a single disk. My production spool servers run a few hundred proc's on half a gig of RAM. Works fine. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 11:54:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68EFA44B3 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA01983 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:43:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:43:39 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Loss of credibility for CNN Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, if I had any lingering doubts remaining about the integrity of CNN, they've now vanished out the window.. CNN sponsored a "live chat" with Bill Clinton yesterday on an IRC server..they were having problems with the server load, and someone managed to grab President_Clinton's /nick and post the response "Personally, i would like to see more porn on the Internet. Wolf, how about you? Are you all for more porn on the Internet?" But does a single word of this make it to cnn.com? Not that I can see - their reports on the interview just talk about how wonderful it was. http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/02/14/clinton.cnn/index.html http://cnn.com/2000/US/02/14/clinton.transcript/ They didn't even try and put a positive spin on the security breach - it just never happened. Shame.. http://www.boredom.org/cnn/ Kris ---- "How many roads must a man walk down, before you call him a man?" "Eight!" "That was a rhetorical question!" "Oh..then, seven!" -- Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 14: 0: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D4056FA for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA57883; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:11:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:11:07 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <200002151605.JAA19336@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > Ah. TWENEX, the predecessor of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, succeeded ITS as > > > > Only of TOPS-20. TOPS-10 is a different animal. It shipped with source, by > > the way. > > BLISS is ignornace. TOPS-10 was written in MACRO-10. Later bits, like some of DECNET -- I think, were done in BLISS-10 (BLISS-36?). I suspect TOPS-20 was also MACRO-10. I am almost certain that the BBN folk used MACRO-10, or its ancestors. David, wondering when a 72-bit machine is going to appear. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 14: 3:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234774CBF for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03680; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:56:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:56:13 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: Brooks Davis , David Scheidt , Troy Settle , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000215135613.M17536@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000214185255.E17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from winter@jurai.net on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:31:59PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Matthew N. Dodd [000215 09:59] wrote: > On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > uh you mean where it misinterprets disconnect as break? > > FreeBSD does the same exact thing! > > (with options BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER that is.) > > Figure it could have anything to do with how 'break' is done on a serial > line? > > If you've got people rebooting your console servers then you've got other > problems. Er, it doesn't on my machines. I sort of remeber this happening a while back on FreeBSD but that was over a year ago, are you sure it still applies? -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 15:26:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354535870 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (root@rac3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.143]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09010 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA21111 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from rac3.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21106 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:44:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200002152244.RAA21106@rac3.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac3.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Which BSD for a Mac/68k Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:44:17 -0500 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, I know this looks like an odd place to post such a question, but I am doing it anyway. I inherited an old Mac IIsi a while back and I dug it out the other day. I planned on using it to host a small simple website and maybeprovide shells for a few close personal friends. Apache, sendmail, the usual load for a small server will be included. Now, here is my question, which of NetBSD or OpenBSD should I use? I am coming from a strong FreeBSD background, what "gotchas" should I look out for when doing this? Is there any good documentation for someone going to another BSD? I, of course, did not ask on the Net or Open lists for reasons relating to zealtory :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 16:14: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 189F349CA for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17278 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2000 23:40:52 -0000 Received: from userbn14.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.145.65) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 2000 23:40:52 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01077; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:40:53 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:40:53 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new to BSD Message-ID: <20000215234053.B591@marder-1> References: <200002120320.VAA70132@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200002120320.VAA70132@nospam.hiwaay.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 09:20:31PM -0600, David Kelly wrote: > Jay Nelson writes: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, David Kelly wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > >For such a logo one might use a green sneaker/tennis shoe. Hightops > > >with a round patch logo at the ankle. This should take care of most > > >Politically Correct issues. While the rest of us know its still the > > >same old traditional BSD daemon, only a close up. :-) > > > > Are you suggesting we should rename to shUnix -- the sole choice? > > > > 'Course, the Linux crowd would claim that shUnix stinks. > > Late at night sometimes I still suspect that Linux users are so grumpy > because they are jealous that Tux still can't find any tennis shoes > that fit. So he just sits there on his fat rump looking at his feet > wishing. :-) > Hmm, My Tux is sat there looking down at my monitor thinking "Damn, another machine running FreeBSD instead of Linux" :) http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/sad_tux.jpg > > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 16:54:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555C75B18 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:18:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from WhizKid (r47.bfm.org [216.127.220.143]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:19:08 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000215181816.00a52170@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:18:16 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: ZDNet on Win2000 vs. Unix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2437600-1,00.html is an article called "Did Windows 2000 miss the revolution?" It mentions FreeBSD, although, as usual for ZDNet, it pushes Linux. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 17: 3:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 753894EDD for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA12540; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:45:39 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:45:39 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Kris Kirby Cc: Juergen Nickelsen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is Message-ID: <20000216104539.A12517@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 15 February 2000 at 7:49:43 -0600, Kris Kirby wrote: >> I saw this a lot from a FreeBSD box (3.4-RELEASE) that was connected >> to the same Ethernet segment with two NICs (in different logical >> networks). It really got on my nerves, and Windows 2000 was not >> involved. > > The difference with this example is that the Win2K box was *not* attached > to just one segment. Two NICs, two LANs. Not both on one LAN. You can do this with FreeBSD too. It's a routing problem. Route back to your machine via the other interface, and it'll happen. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 18:18:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130296177 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA46000; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:09:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:09:35 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is Message-ID: <20000215210935.C45552@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jnickelsen@acm.org on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 09:42:11AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 09:42:11AM +0100, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > Kris Kirby writes: > > > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > > > This is supposedly "Retail" Win2K, but it has no idea where to send ARPs. > > Lucky for it that the gateway machine is connected across both LANs. :-) > > I saw this a lot from a FreeBSD box (3.4-RELEASE) that was connected > to the same Ethernet segment with two NICs (in different logical > networks). It really got on my nerves, and Windows 2000 was not > involved. Shouldn't put two NICs from one host on one physical LAN. Hurts network performance. I have yet to hear a good reason to do it. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 19:15:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [209.191.58.1]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CCB4B82 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com (root@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com [209.191.59.131]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09099 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA49579 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:48:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <200002160148.UAA49579@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com> Subject: DEC KL10's etc. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:48:47 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 732-935-0629 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:11:07 -0600 (CST) > From: David Scheidt > Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux > > On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Ah. TWENEX, the predecessor of TOPS-10 and TOPS-20, succeeded ITS as > > > Only of TOPS-20. TOPS-10 is a different animal. It shipped with source, > > > by the way. > > > > BLISS is ignornace. > > TOPS-10 was written in MACRO-10. Later bits, like some of DECNET -- I > think, were done in BLISS-10 (BLISS-36?). I suspect TOPS-20 was also > MACRO-10. I am almost certain that the BBN folk used MACRO-10, or its > ancestors. > > David, wondering when a 72-bit machine is going to appear. When they figure 64 isn't enough. That should finally get us a DEC 36 bit emulator to go with the 12, 16 and 18 bit ones. (No, running sim2.3 is not the main reason for my FreeBSD box, but it's close) Bill --- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 19:15:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [209.191.58.1]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA144BB9 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com (root@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com [209.191.59.131]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20418 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA49683 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:06:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <200002160206.VAA49683@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com> Subject: KL's and SMP To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:06:18 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 732-935-0629 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:28:50 -0600 (CST) > From: David Scheidt > Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux > > On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > As I recall, TOPS-20 emulated both TOPS-10 and TENEX/TWENEX. > > It ran user-mode TOPS-10 programs through a system call translator, not > unlike what FreeBSD does for Linux support. TOPS-10 had some features that > made is superior to TOPS-20, like better SMP support. > Part of what made my PDP and Vax life interesting in my DEC days is hanging around with the KL service group getting to see the Johnson and Johnson Tri-SMP KL setup down near Milltown, NJ. Slick stuff for 1984 or so. Fairly reasonably sized for "big iron" compaired with IBM mainframes. They handled a nice interactive load and were about the easiest machines I've ever seen to get a new user comfortable on. Kermit (and to a lesser extent tcsh) lifted a lot from the command processor. If we can ever make FreeBSD as easy to use and maintain we'd have come a long way... especially with new users. You could use advise and other assists to help walk a new user through stuff and command completion and online help was great. (I was looking for an example of how it works -- but the accelr8 dcl for Linux now coredumps under 4.0-CURRENT -- so I'll have to wait until I finish rebuilding the Vax for further examples). Of course I still preferred DCL and EDT (much to the KL guy's scorn) to the Tops10/Tops20 equivalent interface and EDI and SOS editors.(ugh...) I also found the DEC VAX/VMS help the best in the business for walking new admins and operators through tasks. Blows the door off man pages. Three KL's handling scads of users. They've gone IBM since with mainframes, HP-UX boxes, some Vaxes are left (on the way out), some AS/400's, and some RS6000's... It varies by company division as does who does the admin and maintenance. Bill bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 19:25:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17ABA4156 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA55519; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:21:59 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:21:59 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Juergen Nickelsen , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is In-Reply-To: <20000215210935.C45552@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 09:42:11AM +0100, Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > > Kris Kirby writes: > > > > > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > > > arp: 10.1.1.15 is on fxp0 but got reply from 00:40:05:4d:11:af on ed0 > > > > > > This is supposedly "Retail" Win2K, but it has no idea where to send ARPs. > > > Lucky for it that the gateway machine is connected across both LANs. :-) > > > > I saw this a lot from a FreeBSD box (3.4-RELEASE) that was connected > > to the same Ethernet segment with two NICs (in different logical > > networks). It really got on my nerves, and Windows 2000 was not > > involved. > > Shouldn't put two NICs from one host on one physical LAN. Hurts > network performance. I have yet to hear a good reason to do it. I can think of a good reason to do it. Attach each NIC to a switch and supply each NIC with its own IP address. It's not exactly "trunking" as you would normally think of it, but each IP address would have full use of the bandwidth available at the NIC. It would be downright silly to do it with them both attached to the same collision domain (non-switched segment), obviously. The better way to accomplish this is of course with port trunking or Cisco EtherChannel or something like that, but we don't have support for that AFAIK. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures. ( http://www.freebsd.org ) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 15 20:40: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27FB3E9B for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:35:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA52897; Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:36:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:36:16 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DEC KL10's etc. In-Reply-To: <200002160148.UAA49579@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > > From: David Scheidt > > That should finally get us a DEC 36 bit emulator to go with the 12, 16 > and 18 bit ones. There are a couple. They aren't perfect, but they are getting there. There's a current thread in alt.sys.pdp-10 about them. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 1:11:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.cvzoom.net (ns.cvzoom.net [208.226.154.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D9C4424B for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17142 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2000 09:12:19 -0000 Received: from lcm208.cvzoom.net (208.230.69.208) by ns.cvzoom.net with SMTP; 16 Feb 2000 09:12:19 -0000 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 04:12:02 -0500 (EST) From: Donn Miller To: James Howard Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Which BSD for a Mac/68k In-Reply-To: <200002152244.RAA21106@rac3.wam.umd.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, James Howard wrote: > Okay, I know this looks like an odd place to post such a question, but I > am doing it anyway. > > I inherited an old Mac IIsi a while back and I dug it out the other > day. I planned on using it to host a small simple website and > maybeprovide shells for a few close personal friends. Apache, sendmail, > the usual load for a small server will be included. > > Now, here is my question, which of NetBSD or OpenBSD should I use? I am > coming from a strong FreeBSD background, what "gotchas" should I look out > for when doing this? Is there any good documentation for someone going to > another BSD? I would recommend NetBSD -- NetBSD seems to support the most platforms. I would go to http://www.netbsd.org/ and see if your platform is supported. NetBSD supports so many, I'd be surprised if it didn't. Of course, if you want really tight security, then I'd go to OpenBSD. I think NetBSD's security shouldn't be that bad. Grab a NetBSD boot image, and boot 'er up. - Donn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 1:32:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633DF3FA9 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA65297; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:29:23 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:29:23 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: freebsd-users@uk.freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: UKUG meet, 17th February, Prince of Wales pub, London Message-ID: <20000216092923.A63953@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ sent to UK mailing list, and -chat, please double check where your replies will go ] There's going to be an improtu meeting of FreeBSD UK user group members on February 17th (i.e., tomorrow), at 7pm. The venue is the Prince of Wales pub, on the corner of Drury Lane and Long Acre in London. This is occasioned by Sebastien Gioria of the French Documentation Project being in London, and asking me if anyone was up for a get-together. Attendees so far are: Myself (d'oh) Sebastien Gioria Tony Finch (Demon Internet) Josef Karthauser (Pavilion Internet) Doug Rabson (Mr FreeBSD-Alpha) Nick Hibma (Mr USB) Brian Somers (Mr PPP) If you need directions, the best thing to do is go over to http://www.streetmap.co.uk/, and have it search for "Drury Lane". I'll try and be there from about 6.45, and I'll probably have a FreeBSD sweatshirt on for ease of recognition. If you want to be able to contact me, e-mail me in private, and I'll forward on my mobile phone number. See you all there. N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis shoe stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 1:48:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E773D18; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA67973; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:46:42 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:46:42 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-users@uk.freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UKUG meet, 17th February, Prince of Wales pub, London Message-ID: <20000216094641.A67847@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20000216092923.A63953@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <20000216092923.A63953@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:29:23AM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:29:23AM +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: > There's going to be an improtu meeting of FreeBSD UK user group members > on February 17th (i.e., tomorrow), at 7pm. The venue is the Prince of > Wales pub, on the corner of Drury Lane and Long Acre in London. > > This is occasioned by Sebastien Gioria of the French Documentation Project > being in London, and asking me if anyone was up for a get-together. Sebastien's just e-mailed me, having to cancel his attendance. I don't see that stopping the rest of us getting together for a drink, however. N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis shoe stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 2:13: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [212.74.0.25]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA383E10; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:12:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA34996; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:13:30 GMT (envelope-from joe) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:13:29 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-users@uk.freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UKUG meet, 17th February, Prince of Wales pub, London Message-ID: <20000216101328.C30753@florence.pavilion.net> References: <20000216092923.A63953@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <20000216094641.A67847@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000216094641.A67847@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Organisation: Pavilion Internet plc, Lees House, 21-23 Dyke Road, Brighton, England Phone: +44-845-333-5000 Fax: +44-845-333-5001 Mobile: +44-403-596893 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:46:42AM +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:29:23AM +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: > > This is occasioned by Sebastien Gioria of the French Documentation Project > > being in London, and asking me if anyone was up for a get-together. > > Sebastien's just e-mailed me, having to cancel his attendance. I don't > see that stopping the rest of us getting together for a drink, however. Too right ;) Joe -- Josef Karthauser FreeBSD: Take the red pill and we'll show you just how Technical Manager deep the rabbit hole goes. (http://www.uk.freebsd.org) Pavilion Internet plc. [joe@pavilion.net, joe@freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 3:19:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2BB43FF for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 03:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from scotty.masternet.it ([194.243.20.91]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02746 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:19:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-ID: <38AA8642.2E09B5E2@scotty.masternet.it> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:13:06 +0100 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Nuovo DNS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Come sapete il nuovo DNS accetta un parametro TTL per ogni host della singola zona, se non lo trova genera un warning: Il problema quindi sta nel convertire un file vecchia maniera (es di una intranet): ######### OLD STYLE cofinco.it. IN SOA gmarco.cofinco.it. gmarco.freebsd.cofinco.it. ( 1999121301 ; serial 10800 ; Refresh 3600 ; Retry 604800 ; Expire 86400) ; Minimum TTL IN MX 10 freebsd.cofinco.it. IN A 192.168.0.1 cofinco.it. IN NS 192.168.0.1 cofinco.it. IN NS 151.99.150.6 cofinco.it. IN NS 194.184.65.2 freebsd IN A 192.168.0.1 lombardo IN A 192.168.0.101 daniela IN A 192.168.0.102 empty1 IN A 192.168.0.103 rachele IN A 192.168.0.104 leo IN A 192.168.0.105 ornella IN A 192.168.0.106 luigi IN A 192.168.0.107 ######### NEW STYLE cofinco.it. 86400 IN SOA gmarco.cofinco.it. gmarco.freebsd.cofinco.it. ( 1999121301 ; serial 10800 ; Refresh 3600 ; Retry 604800 ; Expire 86400) ; Minimum TTL 86400 IN MX 10 freebsd.cofinco.it. 86400 IN A 192.168.0.1 cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 192.168.0.1 cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 151.99.150.6 cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 194.184.65.2 freebsd 86400 IN A 192.168.0.1 lombardo 86400 IN A 192.168.0.101 daniela 86400 IN A 192.168.0.102 empty1 86400 IN A 192.168.0.103 rachele 86400 IN A 192.168.0.104 leo 86400 IN A 192.168.0.105 ornella 86400 IN A 192.168.0.106 luigi 86400 IN A 192.168.0.107 #### FINE Ora la cosa fatta a mano va bene per un dominio ma se uno ne ha circa 480 di zone da modificare la cosa puo' diventare noiosa. Siccome la problematica dovrebbe essere comune a molti c'e' nessuno che ha gia' fatto uno script awk/perl/sh per convertire i file ? Altrimenti mi metto al lavoro :-) -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 4: 5:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D6944C7 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 04:05:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from scotty.masternet.it ([194.243.20.91]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02853 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:05:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-ID: <38AA90F5.2B04FE2F@scotty.masternet.it> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:58:45 +0100 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nuovo DNS (sorry for the mistake) References: <38AA8642.2E09B5E2@scotty.masternet.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > Come sapete il nuovo DNS accetta un parametro TTL per ogni host della > singola zona, se non lo trova genera un warning: > > Il problema quindi sta nel convertire un file vecchia maniera (es di una > intranet): > > ######### OLD STYLE > cofinco.it. IN SOA gmarco.cofinco.it. gmarco.freebsd.cofinco.it. ( > 1999121301 ; serial > 10800 ; Refresh > 3600 ; Retry > 604800 ; Expire > 86400) ; Minimum TTL > > IN MX 10 freebsd.cofinco.it. > IN A 192.168.0.1 > > cofinco.it. IN NS 192.168.0.1 > cofinco.it. IN NS 151.99.150.6 > cofinco.it. IN NS 194.184.65.2 > > freebsd IN A 192.168.0.1 > lombardo IN A 192.168.0.101 > daniela IN A 192.168.0.102 > empty1 IN A 192.168.0.103 > rachele IN A 192.168.0.104 > leo IN A 192.168.0.105 > ornella IN A 192.168.0.106 > luigi IN A 192.168.0.107 > > ######### NEW STYLE > > cofinco.it. 86400 IN SOA gmarco.cofinco.it. > gmarco.freebsd.cofinco.it. ( > > 1999121301 ; serial > 10800 ; Refresh > 3600 ; Retry > 604800 ; Expire > 86400) ; Minimum TTL > > 86400 IN MX 10 freebsd.cofinco.it. > 86400 IN A 192.168.0.1 > > cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 192.168.0.1 > cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 151.99.150.6 > cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 194.184.65.2 > > freebsd 86400 IN A 192.168.0.1 > lombardo 86400 IN A 192.168.0.101 > daniela 86400 IN A 192.168.0.102 > empty1 86400 IN A 192.168.0.103 > rachele 86400 IN A 192.168.0.104 > leo 86400 IN A 192.168.0.105 > ornella 86400 IN A 192.168.0.106 > luigi 86400 IN A 192.168.0.107 > > #### FINE > > Ora la cosa fatta a mano va bene per un dominio ma se uno ne ha circa > 480 di zone da modificare la cosa puo' diventare noiosa. > Siccome la problematica dovrebbe essere comune a molti c'e' nessuno che > ha gia' fatto uno script awk/perl/sh per convertire i file ? > > Altrimenti mi metto al lavoro :-) Sorry for this message, but I'd like to write it to chat@gufi.org (FreeBSD italian user group) and obviusly it was in italian language. Btw I was asked if none has developed/written a perl/sh/awk script to convert the old way DNS zones into the new format (so named stop to generate warnings). Sorry again for the waste of bandwith. -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 10:36:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0857837B523 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:36:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtougas@sprig.tougas.net) Received: from sprig.tougas.net (h24-66-217-148.xx.wave.shaw.ca [24.66.217.148]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E668D132DD for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:35:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dtougas@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA51700 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:38:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dtougas) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:38:04 -0700 From: Damien Tougas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: How to figure out capactiy of mail server? Message-ID: <20000216113804.A51674@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Several months ago I came across an article somewhere on the net that explained in great detail how to figure out the capacity of a mail server, or how to design a mail server for a certain capacity. I cannot find that article anywhere now (I thought it might have been at SunWorld or SysAdmin, but have turned up nothing...). Has anyone else seen this article, and know where it might be located? or, Does someone know how I could figure out what capacity a mail server is capable of supporting? Thanks, -- Damien Tougas, P.Eng. Phone: (780)434-5889 Fax: (780)434-5889 E-mail: damien@tougas.net http://www.tougas.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 10:38: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FC7A37B523 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:38:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CCB132E4 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA14854; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:37:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAKLaa7C; Wed Feb 16 11:37:28 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA15588; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:37:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002161837.LAA15588@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:37:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), brooks@one-eyed-alien.net (Brooks Davis), dscheidt@enteract.com (David Scheidt), troy@picus.com (Troy Settle), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at Feb 15, 2000 12:31:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > uh you mean where it misinterprets disconnect as break? > > FreeBSD does the same exact thing! > > (with options BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER that is.) > > Figure it could have anything to do with how 'break' is done on a serial > line? > > If you've got people rebooting your console servers then you've got other > problems. 250ms of line silence, according to Technical Aspects of Data Communication, McKneely, Digital Press, where in the appendices they reproduce the Bell 103c and Bell 212 standards. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 10:44:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DCD37B538 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:44:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52705132E7 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA11214; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:43:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjxaaOv; Wed Feb 16 11:43:36 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16011; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:43:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002161843.LAA16011@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is To: cjclark@home.com Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:43:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen), kris@hiwaay.net (Kris Kirby), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000215210935.C45552@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Feb 15, 2000 09:09:35 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I saw this a lot from a FreeBSD box (3.4-RELEASE) that was connected > > to the same Ethernet segment with two NICs (in different logical > > networks). It really got on my nerves, and Windows 2000 was not > > involved. > > Shouldn't put two NICs from one host on one physical LAN. Hurts > network performance. I have yet to hear a good reason to do it. Because when Windows NT did it on a 4 processor box with the interrupt processing for each NIC bound to a different processor (e.g. non-symmetric multiprocessing), they blew the doors off of Linux when it came to file server performance? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 10:51: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319F837B53D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:51:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B81132E3 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11443; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:50:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000216114210.04307b30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:50:27 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Cc: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), brooks@one-eyed-alien.net (Brooks Davis), dscheidt@enteract.com (David Scheidt), troy@picus.com (Troy Settle), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200002161837.LAA15588@usr02.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:37 AM 2/16/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >250ms of line silence, according to Technical Aspects of Data >Communication, McKneely, Digital Press, where in the appendices >they reproduce the Bell 103c and Bell 212 standards. The exact amount isn't part of any standard, unfortunately. My rule of thumb, when I wrote terminal emulation software, was that it should be a continuous "space" (zero) lasting approximately 10 character times at the current baud rate. It doesn't hurt any to make it too long, but if you make it too short some equipment doesn't pick it up. (It's an "out-of-band" signal, in a manner of speaking, since it's "illegal" in an asynchronous protocol to pin the line to a "space" for that long.) It's especially important to make your breaks good and long if you're using them for control purposes, e.g. a modem escape sequence. When Hayes started obnoxious enforcement of the Heatherington patent (which covered the +++ escape sequence), some modem vendors used AT as an alternative. This choice was better than TIES (a time-independent escape sequence, where +++AT caused an immediate mode change) OR the Heatherington method, so I often set up systems to use it. --Bret To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 11: 6:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F3937B538 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:06:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5E4132EE for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA49022; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:11:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:11:14 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjclark@home.com, Juergen Nickelsen , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is Message-ID: <20000216141114.B48524@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000215210935.C45552@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200002161843.LAA16011@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200002161843.LAA16011@usr02.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:43:51PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:43:51PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I saw this a lot from a FreeBSD box (3.4-RELEASE) that was connected > > > to the same Ethernet segment with two NICs (in different logical > > > networks). It really got on my nerves, and Windows 2000 was not > > > involved. > > > > Shouldn't put two NICs from one host on one physical LAN. Hurts > > network performance. I have yet to hear a good reason to do it. > > Because when Windows NT did it on a 4 processor box with the > interrupt processing for each NIC bound to a different processor > (e.g. non-symmetric multiprocessing), they blew the doors off > of Linux when it came to file server performance? What was the network configuation? The performance was processor-NIC limted rather than by network bandwidth? -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 11:11:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD4637B538 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:11:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5429132F2 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA25645; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:10:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA.8aaaY; Wed Feb 16 12:10:49 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17319; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:11:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002161911.MAA17319@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Nuovo DNS To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it (Gianmarco Giovannelli) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:11:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38AA8642.2E09B5E2@scotty.masternet.it> from "Gianmarco Giovannelli" at Feb 16, 2000 12:13:06 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This really belongs on questions, and it really belongs on DNS questions rather than on FreeBSD questions. > Come sapete il nuovo DNS accetta un parametro TTL per ogni host della > singola zona, se non lo trova genera un warning: > > Il problema quindi sta nel convertire un file vecchia maniera (es di una > intranet): > > ######### OLD STYLE > cofinco.it. IN SOA gmarco.cofinco.it. gmarco.freebsd.cofinco.it. ( > 1999121301 ; serial > 10800 ; Refresh > 3600 ; Retry > 604800 ; Expire > 86400) ; Minimum TTL > > IN MX 10 freebsd.cofinco.it. > IN A 192.168.0.1 > > > cofinco.it. IN NS 192.168.0.1 > cofinco.it. IN NS 151.99.150.6 > cofinco.it. IN NS 194.184.65.2 > > freebsd IN A 192.168.0.1 > lombardo IN A 192.168.0.101 > daniela IN A 192.168.0.102 > empty1 IN A 192.168.0.103 > rachele IN A 192.168.0.104 > leo IN A 192.168.0.105 > ornella IN A 192.168.0.106 > luigi IN A 192.168.0.107 > > ######### NEW STYLE > > cofinco.it. 86400 IN SOA gmarco.cofinco.it. > gmarco.freebsd.cofinco.it. ( > > 1999121301 ; serial > 10800 ; Refresh > 3600 ; Retry > 604800 ; Expire > 86400) ; Minimum TTL > > 86400 IN MX 10 freebsd.cofinco.it. > 86400 IN A 192.168.0.1 > > > cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 192.168.0.1 > cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 151.99.150.6 > cofinco.it. 86400 IN NS 194.184.65.2 You can't really do this. 192.168 is a non-routable class C network, so you aren't going to get an authoritative answer from either of your external name servers. You are really probably trying to either get "views", which you can't currently have, where a local lookup failure results in a relookup in an external DNS server. This is useful for a split horizon DNS server, but will not be available until bind 9 (see for details), OR you are trying to get backup nameservers listed. For the "new" format, it should probably be: --------------------------------------------------------- @ IN SOA cofinco.it. gmarco.cofinco.it. ( 1999121301 ; Serial number 10800 ; Refresh interval 3600 ; Retry interval 604800 ; Expiration 86400 ) ; Minimum ; Nameserver List IN NS freebsd.cofinco.it. ; Domain Address IN A 192.168.0.1 gmarco IN A 192.168.0.1 --------------------------------------------------------- And so on. If you are trying to run split horizon (e.g. this is a dial-on-demand Internet connection with a local network behind FreeBSD running as a NAT box), they you will need to get more complicated in your setup. Specifically, you will have to run two DNS servers, one interior and one exterior, and you will have to specify the addresses to which they are bound. If you are using dynamic IP, you will have to wait to start the exterior server as part of your linkup script. There are directions on how to do this in the O'Reilly BIND book. For the interior named.boot file, you will need to add something like: --------------------------------------------------------- options { directory "/var/dns-interior"; listen-on { 127.0.0.1; 192.168.1.1; }; // only define this after the link is up, and point it // to the nameserver bound to the link up address, if you // are using a dynamic IP address. forwarders { xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx; }; }; zone "127.in-addr.arpa" { type master; file "named.rev.127"; }; zone "0.168.192.in-addr.arpa" { type master; file "named.rev.0.168.192"; }; --------------------------------------------------------- > Ora la cosa fatta a mano va bene per un dominio ma se uno ne ha circa > 480 di zone da modificare la cosa puo' diventare noiosa. > Siccome la problematica dovrebbe essere comune a molti c'e' nessuno che > ha gia' fatto uno script awk/perl/sh per convertire i file ? > > Altrimenti mi metto al lavoro :-) You could maybe use a scripted interface. Personally, I would either regenerate the data and kick the named(s). The problem with sripting calls to DNSUPDAT is that the ACLs are based on IP address and not certificate. This would allow you to update the interior DNS, but, not knowing the exterior IP address beforehand, you will be screwed. PS: My Italian reading skills are hellaciously rusty, so I may not be answering the exact question you are asking; if not, please ignore the response. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 11:13:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D2F937B538 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:13:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D35132E0 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:12:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA26522; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:13:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA1jaWVZ; Wed Feb 16 12:13:05 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17464; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:13:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002161913.MAA17464@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Nuovo DNS (sorry for the mistake) To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it (Gianmarco Giovannelli) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:13:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38AA90F5.2B04FE2F@scotty.masternet.it> from "Gianmarco Giovannelli" at Feb 16, 2000 12:58:45 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ora la cosa fatta a mano va bene per un dominio ma se uno ne ha circa > > 480 di zone da modificare la cosa puo' diventare noiosa. > > Siccome la problematica dovrebbe essere comune a molti c'e' nessuno che > > ha gia' fatto uno script awk/perl/sh per convertire i file ? > > > > Altrimenti mi metto al lavoro :-) > > Sorry for this message, but I'd like to write it to chat@gufi.org > (FreeBSD italian user group) and obviusly it was in italian language. > > Btw I was asked if none has developed/written a perl/sh/awk script to > convert the old way DNS zones into the new format (so named stop to > generate warnings). > > Sorry again for the waste of bandwith. My comments about the authority records stand; the way you have converted this, and the way you wre originally running it, is actually wrong. But yes, there is a conversion script supplied in the BIND 8 contrib directory. I told you my Italian was rusty. 8-). I thought you were having a problem running the named after you had converted into the new format... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 11:20:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5605F37B555 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:20:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8869B132EF for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29848; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:20:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA69aye6; Wed Feb 16 12:20:18 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17806; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:20:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002161920.MAA17806@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:20:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd), bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), brooks@one-eyed-alien.net (Brooks Davis), dscheidt@enteract.com (David Scheidt), troy@picus.com (Troy Settle), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000216114210.04307b30@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 16, 2000 11:50:27 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >250ms of line silence, according to Technical Aspects of Data > >Communication, McKneely, Digital Press, where in the appendices > >they reproduce the Bell 103c and Bell 212 standards. > > The exact amount isn't part of any standard, unfortunately. Actually, it's part of the Bell 103C standard, defining how modems should function. DEC implemented the break on VT100 terminals to be "as long as the break key remained depressed". However, it seems to me that the only reason for varing from the 250ms 103C definition is to allow you to break in a shorter time at a higher baud rate, since so long as you were going at a higher baud rate, you would have more sampling intervals to detect the break than at a lower baud rate. As far as timings, I've always wondered why in _hell_ vendors did not adhere to the RS232C specification when it came to implementing external clock pins. I mean, we would never, ever have had to care about baud rate matching if they had implemented this stuff according to the specification. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 11:25: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495CA37B555 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:25:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F27D132E9 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA01126; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:24:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA7waqjc; Wed Feb 16 12:24:46 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17991; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:24:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002161924.MAA17991@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Windows 2000 isn't that smart, but everything else is To: cjclark@home.com Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:24:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jnickelsen@acm.org (Juergen Nickelsen), kris@hiwaay.net (Kris Kirby), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000216141114.B48524@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Feb 16, 2000 02:11:14 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > I saw this a lot from a FreeBSD box (3.4-RELEASE) that was connected > > > > to the same Ethernet segment with two NICs (in different logical > > > > networks). It really got on my nerves, and Windows 2000 was not > > > > involved. > > > > > > Shouldn't put two NICs from one host on one physical LAN. Hurts > > > network performance. I have yet to hear a good reason to do it. > > > > Because when Windows NT did it on a 4 processor box with the > > interrupt processing for each NIC bound to a different processor > > (e.g. non-symmetric multiprocessing), they blew the doors off > > of Linux when it came to file server performance? > > What was the network configuation? The performance was processor-NIC > limted rather than by network bandwidth? This was the test at Ziff-Davis labs following the Linux uproar about the other testing lab being paid by Microsoft. FreeBSD fared badly, as well, but it was not reported in the press. The network configuration, I believe, was 10/100 cards running at 100. The performance was apparently limited by interprocessor bus contention, not bandwidth, since we are talking about the ability to support N clients for a request/response based file sharing protocol. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 11:51:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E2637B55D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:51:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBCF5132F4 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12252; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:51:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000216123513.0445b480@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:51:12 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200002161920.MAA17806@usr02.primenet.com> References: <4.2.2.20000216114210.04307b30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:20 PM 2/16/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: >Actually, it's part of the Bell 103C standard, defining how >modems should function. Bell 103C wasn't synchronous over the wire; it was just an FSK rendering of the RS-232 or current loop signal. So, it didn't really care how long a break was! It just translated the line level into one tone or the other. >DEC implemented the break on VT100 terminals to be "as long as >the break key remained depressed". So did Western Electric in the Teletype. It broke the current loop while you held the key down, and the print head "chattered" to indicate that the loop was broken. The Teletype sometimes took two baud times to recover from a break before it would get the following character right. >However, it seems to me that the only reason for varing from >the 250ms 103C definition is to allow you to break in a >shorter time at a higher baud rate, since so long as you >were going at a higher baud rate, you would have more sampling >intervals to detect the break than at a lower baud rate. That's what UARTs do. They base their decision about whether there's a "break" on the number of character times for which the line has been at zero. 10 character times is a good number because it triggers even the most poorly designed UARTs. The National Semiconductor UARTs used in most PCs trigger fairly reliably at 3, but other UARTS and many modems want more. Since any modem above 300 baud does async-to-sync conversion and has to send a special signal over the wire to indicate a break, it's important to be sure you trigger recognition by the modem. My empirical tests showed that 10 character times was reliable and left a little margin for error. >As far as timings, I've always wondered why in _hell_ vendors >did not adhere to the RS232C specification when it came to >implementing external clock pins. I mean, we would never, ever >have had to care about baud rate matching if they had implemented >this stuff according to the specification. The external clock pins in RS232C were for synchronous applications, IIRC. And there were problems with skew. Also, line drivers and receivers were hideously expensive. (I remember having a long argument with a boss over whether we should put one extra MC1488 chip in a design to implement a few more handshake lines.) Finally, there's the issue of current. RS232C requires drivers to be able to sink and source a lot of it. You often had to beef up your power supply to handle more lines. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 15: 5:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E26F37B54D for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:05:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@sasknow.com) Received: from sasknow.com (h139-142-245-96.ss.fiberone.net [139.142.245.96]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD09132E3 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (freebsd@localhost) by sasknow.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA72668; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:05:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from freebsd@sasknow.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:05:56 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: "Dan O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DSL - FreeBSD - Gateway ? In-Reply-To: <056b01bf7891$f0867d40$0200000a@danco.home> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Dan O'Connor wrote: > >Obviously, that diagram, as quoted, is incorrect. I'd love to see a > >cable modem with 4 ethernet ports, though :-) > > Mmmmmm....that would be yummy! Yes, it would... But why not go with a little extra $$ and go for SDSL or something similar and have burstable, plexable T1 access with a fully routed /24 and included Cisco router on a network that has bandwidth to spare, and sub-ms latency on a direct line that runs across a busy street from their office to mine? It's actually cheaper than co-lo, too. > >Your mail client seems to have garbled my recommendation. (I see you > >are using Outlook Express, which has many such known > >problems^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfeatures). > > > I know :-( > > >Check my original message, with a fixed-width font. My recommendation > >was basically the same as yours. Here it is, as it was originally: > > > >Ryan Thompson: > >>Cable Modem ---- Router ---- Hub > >> / | \ > >> Box1 Box2 Box3 > > > Well, I suppose I could call Microsoft and complain that OE not only doesn't > support fixed-width, but also strips leading spaces, but they'd just tell me > it was a feature... Funny things, Microsoft(TM). Standard packaging label: "May contain programmers". > Have a great day! > > --Dan -- Ryan Thompson 50% Owner, Sysadmin SaskNow Technologies http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E Saskatoon, SK S7H 0W2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 17:16: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6786F37B513 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B921132E7 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from newsguy.com (p45-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.46]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id KAA16868; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:14:27 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <38AB45F6.BA2A71A7@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:51:02 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Greco Cc: Matthew Dillon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filesystem size limit? References: <200002151856.MAA66327@aurora.sol.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Greco wrote: > > Huh? No. It's my pr0n server, dewd. Do you know how many nekkid pikturez > you can stuff onto 1.8TB? With the right compression, probably more than you can see in your life time. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "If you consider our help impolite, you should see the manager." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 17:34:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07AC37B595 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:34:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B85A132E6 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:34:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 36663 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2000 01:34:19 -0000 Received: from erstumper.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.7) by queasy.outpost.co.nz with SMTP; 17 Feb 2000 01:34:19 -0000 Message-ID: <38AC7B56.A38B7454@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:51:02 -0800 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Filesystem size limit? References: <200002151856.MAA66327@aurora.sol.net> <38AB45F6.BA2A71A7@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Joe Greco wrote: > > > Huh? No. It's my pr0n server, dewd. Do you know how many nekkid pikturez > > you can stuff onto 1.8TB? > > With the right compression, probably more than you can see in your life > time. :-) Assume 200KB per image, a reasonably large image (in terms of on-screen resolution). That's 9,663,676 images. If we assume you need 5 sec per nekkid pikture to "appreciate" the full impact of the image, it will *only* take you 559 days (of _continuous_ viewing) to see all of them. Hardly a lifetime's worth. -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 18:28: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498DC37B505 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:28:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgreco@aurora.sol.net) Received: from aurora.sol.net (aurora.sol.net [206.55.65.76]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A1D5132E5 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by aurora.sol.net (8.9.2/8.9.2/SNNS-1.02) id UAA99471; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:27:45 -0600 (CST) From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <200002170227.UAA99471@aurora.sol.net> Subject: Re: Filesystem size limit? In-Reply-To: <38AB45F6.BA2A71A7@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at "Feb 17, 2000 9:51: 2 am" To: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:27:45 -0600 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Joe Greco wrote: > > > > Huh? No. It's my pr0n server, dewd. Do you know how many nekkid pikturez > > you can stuff onto 1.8TB? > > With the right compression, probably more than you can see in your life > time. :-) With an average 80K size, 24,159,191 pictures. Assuming an 80-year life span, and an average 16 hours a day awake, that's 1,681,920,000 seconds. It appears that I could look at each for about 70 seconds. He says with a straight face. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 18:33:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0590037B505 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zeus@tetronsoftware.com) Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (ftp.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7004132E0 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (tetron02.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26850; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:32:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from zeus@tetronsoftware.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:32:16 -0600 (CST) From: Gene Harris To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Joe Greco , Matthew Dillon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filesystem size limit? In-Reply-To: <38AB45F6.BA2A71A7@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Joe Greco wrote: > > > > Huh? No. It's my pr0n server, dewd. Do you know how many nekkid pikturez > > you can stuff onto 1.8TB? > > With the right compression, probably more than you can see in your life > time. :-) > And he still might have room for a spell checker too! ;-) > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > dcs@newsguy.com > dcs@freebsd.org > > "If you consider our help impolite, you should see the manager." Cheers, Gene *==============================================* *Gene Harris http://www.tetronsoftware.com* * Home of TeamAccess version control for * * Microsoft Office 97 and 2000 * * FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE - The Power to Serve * * Redhat 6.1 Secure Web Server * *==============================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 21:27:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B322837B607 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:27:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4BB132E2 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25859 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:55:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:55:35 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: bad monkey no cookie for you! Message-ID: <20000216215535.M3509@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.snowplow.org/cgi-bin/george.pl sorry, it's just too good. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 16 22:25:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from builder.freebsd.org (builder.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA6937B602 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:25:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by builder.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50035132EF for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA35208; Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:24:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:24:48 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad monkey no cookie for you! Message-ID: <20000216222448.A35172@azazel.zer0.org> References: <20000216215535.M3509@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000216215535.M3509@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:55:35PM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-02-16 21:55 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > http://www.snowplow.org/cgi-bin/george.pl Been there. My high score is only 5300 or so. I did do some nasty things, though. :( Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "I think not," said Descartes... mailto:gsutter@zer0.org and promptly disappeared. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 0:50: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D25137B678 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:49:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00678; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 01:18:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 01:18:09 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Gregory Sutter Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad monkey no cookie for you! Message-ID: <20000217011809.O3509@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000216215535.M3509@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000216222448.A35172@azazel.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000216222448.A35172@azazel.zer0.org>; from gsutter@zer0.org on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 10:24:48PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Gregory Sutter [000216 22:53] wrote: > On 2000-02-16 21:55 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > http://www.snowplow.org/cgi-bin/george.pl > > Been there. My high score is only 5300 or so. I did do some nasty > things, though. :( Prolly not as naughty as my monkey... The monkey forces an ISP to install Windows NT in Grand Rapids, Michigan. rotfl, etc. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 1:26:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elwood.akitanet.co.uk (elwood.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8324937B682 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 01:26:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wigstah@akitanet.co.uk) Received: from elwood.akitanet.co.uk (elwood.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.149]) by elwood.akitanet.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA49689; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:32:39 GMT Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:32:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Robinson To: Joe Greco Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filesystem size limit? In-Reply-To: <200002170227.UAA99471@aurora.sol.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Joe Greco wrote: > > > Huh? No. It's my pr0n server, dewd. Do you know how many nekkid pikturez > > > you can stuff onto 1.8TB? > > With an average 80K size, 24,159,191 pictures. Assuming an 80-year life > span, and an average 16 hours a day awake, that's 1,681,920,000 seconds. > It appears that I could look at each for about 70 seconds. You've *thought* about this haven't you? I can tell... It gets worse when you're talking 'movies' though, because typically a 60 sec mpeg is going to be as big as 8-9Mb. Therefore you're getting less time for your byte, however, you might 'appreciate' it more... not that I know or anything.... :) -- Paul Robinson - Developer/Systems Administrator @ Akitanet Internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 5:29: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C37737B726 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 05:29:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r18.bfm.org [216.127.220.114]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:29:10 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000217072833.00a1f100@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:28:33 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Conquering OS? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's an article that compares Bill Gates to Caesar: http://www.varbusiness.com/news/breakingnews.asp?ArticleID=13976 Its title: "All Hail the Conquering OS." All? Seems to me someone needs to retake Journalism 101... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 9:41:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail04.knox.edu (mail04.knox.edu [63.70.120.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BCC37B779 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:41:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sunderwo@knox.edu) Received: from knox.edu ([63.70.124.61]) by mail04.knox.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA12F8 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:41:10 -0600 Message-ID: <38AC350E.FCBBC465@knox.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:51:11 -0600 From: The Dagda Organization: knox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bad monkey no cookie for you! References: <20000216215535.M3509@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The monkey stalks and kills three film students camping in the woods outside Burkittsville, Maryland. =) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 11:10:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from katroo.Sendmail.COM (katroo.Sendmail.COM [209.246.26.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6210C37B714 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:10:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@sendmail.com) Received: from hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM (hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM [10.210.100.101]) by katroo.Sendmail.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10354; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA13489; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:10:31 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad monkey no cookie for you! Message-ID: <20000217111031.D13347@hodgepodge.Sendmail.COM> Reply-To: jgrosch@sendmail.com References: <20000216215535.M3509@fw.wintelcom.net> <20000216222448.A35172@azazel.zer0.org> <20000217011809.O3509@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <20000217011809.O3509@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 01:18:09AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Gregory Sutter [000216 22:53] wrote: > > On 2000-02-16 21:55 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > > http://www.snowplow.org/cgi-bin/george.pl > > > > Been there. My high score is only 5300 or so. I did do some nasty > > things, though. :( > > Prolly not as naughty as my monkey... > > The monkey forces an ISP to install Windows NT in Grand Rapids, Michigan. How many points for that atrocity? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.4 jgrosch@Sendmail.COM | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 11:15:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from [192.168.1.254] (proxy.tigertown.k12.mo.us [204.185.250.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C733E37B6D6 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:15:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andy@tigertown.k12.mo.us) Received: from admin by [192.168.1.254];Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:15:03 GMT Message-ID: <003501bf7979$d7991200$e7b46ad1@admin> From: "Andy Rowland" To: "George Cox" Cc: References: <20000217061626.17285.qmail@web3305.mail.yahoo.com> <20000217170406.F2366@extremis.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: help Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:04:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snipped question from someone who obviously didn't do *any* reading except for how to get on this list....] [Posted this little rant to chat, rather than questions] I'm new to these lists, and new to FreeBSD, and my *nix/BSD skills are a little rusty, having been most of 5 years away from it. But I am still in the computer/network business, as I run 5 school districts' networks, with a mix of Win 95/98 (no 3.x thank God), Mac, and Novell...... I've found some uses for FreeBSD, and of course, it's like coming home again, as my first contact with computers other than an Apple IIe was when I headed off to college at Purdue in 1987. I got to play with BSD 4.3 and clones thereof. And I met ghg. He taught me a few small things. I installed, logged in the first time, looked around a bit, and thought 'yeah, I remember this'. Is it like this all the time?? People asking questions who *obviously* havent' bothered to RTFM at all, and want us to tell them step-by-step? I guess I should be used to it by now, having spent some time with other OSes' lists/forums (I *refuse* to even attempt to spend time in the MS newsgroups. Too much noise/real content). I thought it might be different here, but I guess people are the same everywhere. I've been mostly lurking here for about a week or so, and the response to questions here is great! Keep it up! I'll quit spewing now, and let you get back to your productive lives ;-) --Andy Rowland Grand River Network andy@tigertown.k12.;mo.us To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 11:42:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from crcst353.netaddress.usa.net (crcst353.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CDD837B767 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:42:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j_mckitrick@usa.net) Received: (qmail 11869 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2000 18:27:41 -0000 Received: from nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.23.12) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 17 Feb 2000 18:27:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 20026 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Feb 2000 18:27:41 -0000 Message-ID: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.12 by nwcst267 for [12.26.12.71] via web-mailer(M3.4.0.33) on Thu Feb 17 18:27:41 GMT 2000 Date: 17 Feb 00 11:27:41 MST From: Jonathon McKitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSD vs Linux comments X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.4.0.33) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After mentioning to some Linux 'hackers' (not the negative connotation) t= hat i run BSD, here was the response i got. Although this debate has been goin= g on for some time, these were some unique observations. I do not know how tr= ue they are, however. Any thoughts?? -------------------------------------------- The matter of stability between Linux and FreeBSD (just to pick a BSD, it= could be Net BSDi or Open, ect..) has been going on for quite some time. = For a while it was all about the innate stability, then linux got better... BSD= stayed the same, basically unchanged since 4.4BSD Lite. = Then the issue was IP Stacks, BSD has a more stable IP stack than the 2.0= =2E* series kernel. Then Linux got better, 2.2.* came out and the IP stack was= revamped and as stable as BSD's .... and BSD stayed the same, basically unchanged since 4.4BSD Lite. = Then there was the issue of 'innate' superiority of BSD over SysV unix. A= nd POSIX kinda kicked BSD's a$$, heh. And Linux ganked ideas from both sides= , so Linux changed and got better... and BSD stayed the same, basically unchan= ged since 4.4BSD Lite. = Now, from this brief and cursory overview what can we see, hmmmmm?? :) It= looks a lot like for people who think that computing reached its pinnacle= of perfection in the 80's and early 90's... BSD is the way to go... those of= us who are pushing for the latest Intel 1.5 Ghz box and want a volitile comp= uting environment should stick to Linux. = ------------------------------------------------------ Obviously BSD *has* changed, but is there merit to any of these comments?= ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 12:13:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9B237B712 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA85310 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:13:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:13:53 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: spam? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anybody else getting spam disguised as a reply to a post to a FreeBSD mailing list? David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 12:16:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CCA37B749 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:15:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5DC91224E; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:15:21 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> References: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:00:11 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:57 PM +0100 2000/2/17, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Obviously BSD *has* changed, but is there merit to any of these comments? See some of Matt Dillon's comments regarding Linux. Our memory management scheme beats the crap out of theirs, although their SMP is ahead of ours. I think our network stack still beats theirs, but maybe 2.3 really does fix some of those problems -- I wonder if the folks at NFS, the authors of ntop, and Darren Reed (author of IP filter) have any thoughts on that. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy _________________________________________________________________________ |o| Brad Knowles, Belgacom Skynet NV/SA |o| |o| Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Rue Col. Bourg, 124 |o| |o| Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/726.93.11 B-1140 Brussels |o| |o| http://www.skynet.be Belgium |o| \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Unix is like a wigwam -- no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside. Unix is very user-friendly. It's just picky who its friends are. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 12:28:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8840937B6D7 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12LXX8-000DlF-00; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:28:18 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA87246; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:28:18 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:28:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: >At 8:57 PM +0100 2000/2/17, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >> Obviously BSD *has* changed, but is there merit to any of these comments? > > See some of Matt Dillon's comments regarding Linux. Our memory >management scheme beats the crap out of theirs, although their SMP is >ahead of ours. Comments on Daemonnews somewhere? Or in the mailing list archives? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 12:32:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE9937B841 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C4512255; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:32:18 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:31:37 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:00 PM +0100 2000/2/17, Brad Knowles wrote: > I think our network stack still beats theirs, but maybe 2.3 really > does fix some of those problems -- I wonder if the folks at NFS, the > authors of ntop, and Darren Reed (author of IP filter) have any > thoughts on that. %s/NFS/NFR/ Sigh.... -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy _________________________________________________________________________ |o| Brad Knowles, Belgacom Skynet NV/SA |o| |o| Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Rue Col. Bourg, 124 |o| |o| Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/726.93.11 B-1140 Brussels |o| |o| http://www.skynet.be Belgium |o| \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Unix is like a wigwam -- no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside. Unix is very user-friendly. It's just picky who its friends are. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 12:34:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A72A37B814 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA17683; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:02:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:02:41 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Message-ID: <20000217130241.T3509@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net>; from j_mckitrick@usa.net on Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 11:27:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Jonathon McKitrick [000217 12:11] wrote: > After mentioning to some Linux 'hackers' (not the negative connotation) that i > run BSD, here was the response i got. Although this debate has been going on > for some time, these were some unique observations. I do not know how true > they are, however. Any thoughts?? > -------------------------------------------- > The matter of stability between Linux and FreeBSD (just to pick a BSD, it > could be Net BSDi or Open, ect..) has been going on for quite some time. For a > while it was all about the innate stability, then linux got better... BSD > stayed the same, basically unchanged since 4.4BSD Lite. > > Then the issue was IP Stacks, BSD has a more stable IP stack than the 2.0.* > series kernel. Then Linux got better, 2.2.* came out and the IP stack was > revamped and as stable as BSD's .... and BSD stayed the same, basically > unchanged since 4.4BSD Lite. > > Then there was the issue of 'innate' superiority of BSD over SysV unix. And > POSIX kinda kicked BSD's a$$, heh. And Linux ganked ideas from both sides, so > Linux changed and got better... and BSD stayed the same, basically unchanged > since 4.4BSD Lite. > > Now, from this brief and cursory overview what can we see, hmmmmm?? :) It > looks a lot like for people who think that computing reached its pinnacle of > perfection in the 80's and early 90's... BSD is the way to go... those of us > who are pushing for the latest Intel 1.5 Ghz box and want a volitile computing > environment should stick to Linux. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Obviously BSD *has* changed, but is there merit to any of these comments? then: * Brad Knowles [000217 12:45] wrote: > At 8:57 PM +0100 2000/2/17, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > Obviously BSD *has* changed, but is there merit to any of these comments? > > See some of Matt Dillon's comments regarding Linux. Our memory > management scheme beats the crap out of theirs, although their SMP is > ahead of ours. > > I think our network stack still beats theirs, but maybe 2.3 > really does fix some of those problems -- I wonder if the folks at > NFS, the authors of ntop, and Darren Reed (author of IP filter) have > any thoughts on that. > It's not just that, Linux doesn't really seem to "take the better" between the two roads, it basically takes whatever is easier and doesn't explain to thier users the deficiencies behind thier core subsystems like virtual memory and filesystems. Some really blatant things are missing in Linux, things like large file support, read/write atomicity, garantees that your files are actually there (*). (*) last i heard you have to walk '..' fsync'ing directories to make sure that a created file is actually there, as well as all the directories above it. BSD-FFS fsync actually does this automatically. Other major subsystems (such as thier TCP/IP stack) seem to be rewritten every six months, the immediate question that springs to mind is that since they've claimed to have the 'most stablest' and fastest TCP/IP implementation out there, then why do they ditch the whole thing and have to start from scratch every year? I was pretty much garanteed that the older stuff was the real deal. I think your friends are mistaken, BSD isn't stagnating in 80s/early 90s technology, BSD got it right in the early 90s. Linux is still playing catch-up and seemingly not doing a very good job at it. It's 2000, which subsystem in Linux is going to need to be gutted and redone from scratch this month? -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 12:39:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D5EF37B7FF for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:39:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem09.masternet.it [194.184.65.19]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04435; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:38:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000217211106.00a68e40@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:36:33 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Nuovo DNS (sorry for the mistake) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200002161913.MAA17464@usr02.primenet.com> References: <38AA90F5.2B04FE2F@scotty.masternet.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16/02/00, you wrote: > > Sorry for this message, but I'd like to write it to chat@gufi.org > > (FreeBSD italian user group) and obviusly it was in italian language. > > > > Btw I was asked if none has developed/written a perl/sh/awk script to > > convert the old way DNS zones into the new format (so named stop to > > generate warnings). > > > > Sorry again for the waste of bandwith. > >My comments about the authority records stand; the way you have >converted this, and the way you wre originally running it, is >actually wrong. I have not converted them yet, also because I was not sure on how I have to do it. Now reading the man of named I discover that I can specify the default TTL keyword as the first line of the zone file: $TTL nnnnnn >But yes, there is a conversion script supplied in the BIND 8 >contrib directory. Fine... I'll check it too, thanks... >I told you my Italian was rusty. 8-). I thought you were >having a problem running the named after you had converted into >the new format... As you have understand I have not yet converted them yet. Btw your observations were too much interesting. This was the sample I sent. > cofinco.it. IN SOA gmarco.cofinco.it. gmarco.freebsd.cofinco.it. ( > 1999121301 ; serial > 10800 ; Refresh > 3600 ; Retry > 604800 ; Expire > 86400) ; Minimum TTL > > IN MX 10 freebsd.cofinco.it. > IN A 192.168.0.1 > > > cofinco.it. IN NS 192.168.0.1 > cofinco.it. IN NS 151.99.150.6 > cofinco.it. IN NS 194.184.65.2 > > freebsd IN A 192.168.0.1 > lombardo IN A 192.168.0.101 > daniela IN A 192.168.0.102 > empty1 IN A 192.168.0.103 > rachele IN A 192.168.0.104 >If you are trying to run split horizon (e.g. this is a dial-on-demand >Internet connection with a local network behind FreeBSD running as a >NAT box), they you will need to get more complicated in your setup. This exactly the point. The sample I sent was the DNS of an intranet connected to the Internet by a cable modem with ppp -nat enable. This is the output of ifconfig -a: freebsd:/home/gmarco> ifconfig -a ed1: flags=8843 mtu 1500 inet 192.168.0.1 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.0.255 ether 52:54:05:df:0e:46 tun0: flags=8051 mtu 1500 inet 194.243.20.91 --> 194.243.20.2 netmask 0xffffff00 >Specifically, you will have to run two DNS servers, one interior and >one exterior, and you will have to specify the addresses to which >they are bound. If you are using dynamic IP, you will have to wait >to start the exterior server as part of your linkup script. Do you think I have to run 2 DNS ? I really don't want my boxes inside the intranet to be accessible from the Internet (they are almost Windog 98 boxes). The DNS is needed only for the "inside" boxes to query their requests for the Internet address. The configuration seems to work now, do you think I have to change it ? >There are directions on how to do this in the O'Reilly BIND book. I have that book (indeed I have two editions of it, also the last :-) Perhaps I have to read them better :-) Thanks again for your attention and your kind replies. Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 12:54:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D592237B546 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:54:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12LXw6-000Ejv-00; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:54:06 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA87364; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:54:06 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:54:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: <20000217130241.T3509@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good points, as usual Alfred. Thanks for the perspective. I still look forward to comments from others, and more of yours as well, of course. ;-) -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 12:54:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7954337B844 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:54:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF49C122E9; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:54:27 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:53:40 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:28 PM +0000 2000/2/17, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Comments on Daemonnews somewhere? Or in the mailing list archives? I think it was on daemonnews, in his recent comments on the FreeBSD VM implementation, or something like that. If I'm wrong, I'm sure that someone will correct me. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy _________________________________________________________________________ |o| Brad Knowles, Belgacom Skynet NV/SA |o| |o| Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Rue Col. Bourg, 124 |o| |o| Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/726.93.11 B-1140 Brussels |o| |o| http://www.skynet.be Belgium |o| \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Unix is like a wigwam -- no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside. Unix is very user-friendly. It's just picky who its friends are. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 13: 0:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D7637B822 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:00:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12LY2E-000HyW-00; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:00:26 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA87421; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:00:25 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:00:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ah, yes, i remember now. Last month's article on the revamped VM system in 4.0. I'm looking forward to that. But i'll have to wait until 4.1 for a bit more stability. -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 13: 1:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F316C37B80F for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:01:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA97452; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:00:14 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:00:14 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:28 PM +0000 2000/2/17, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > Comments on Daemonnews somewhere? Or in the mailing list archives? > > I think it was on daemonnews, in his recent comments on the > FreeBSD VM implementation, or something like that. http://www.daemonnews.org/200001/freebsd_vm.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 13: 7:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id BEDEB37B833; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:07:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: j_mckitrick@usa.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> (message from Jonathon McKitrick on 17 Feb 00 11:27:41 MST) Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Message-Id: <20000217210744.BEDEB37B833@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:07:44 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org one person can be misinformed on a number of different issues. jmb > > After mentioning to some Linux 'hackers' (not the negative connotation) t= > hat i > run BSD, here was the response i got. Although this debate has been goin= > g on > for some time, these were some unique observations. I do not know how tr= > ue > they are, however. Any thoughts?? > -------------------------------------------- > The matter of stability between Linux and FreeBSD (just to pick a BSD, it= > > could be Net BSDi or Open, ect..) has been going on for quite some time. = > For a > while it was all about the innate stability, then linux got better... BSD= > > stayed the same, basically unchanged since 4.4BSD Lite. = > > > Then the issue was IP Stacks, BSD has a more stable IP stack than the 2.0= > =2E* > series kernel. Then Linux got better, 2.2.* came out and the IP stack was= > > revamped and as stable as BSD's .... and BSD stayed the same, basically > unchanged since 4.4BSD Lite. = > > > Then there was the issue of 'innate' superiority of BSD over SysV unix. A= > nd > POSIX kinda kicked BSD's a$$, heh. And Linux ganked ideas from both sides= > , so > Linux changed and got better... and BSD stayed the same, basically unchan= > ged > since 4.4BSD Lite. = > > > Now, from this brief and cursory overview what can we see, hmmmmm?? :) It= > > looks a lot like for people who think that computing reached its pinnacle= > of > perfection in the 80's and early 90's... BSD is the way to go... those of= > us > who are pushing for the latest Intel 1.5 Ghz box and want a volitile comp= > uting > environment should stick to Linux. = > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Obviously BSD *has* changed, but is there merit to any of these comments?= > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= > 1 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 13: 9: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (ftp.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F21437B814 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zeus@tetronsoftware.com) Received: from tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (tetron02.tetronsoftware.com [208.236.46.106]) by tetron02.tetronsoftware.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA31473; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:09:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from zeus@tetronsoftware.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:09:25 -0600 (CST) From: Gene Harris To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Feb 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > After mentioning to some Linux 'hackers' (not the negative connotation) that i > run BSD, here was the response i got. Although this debate has been going on > for some time, these were some unique observations. I do not know how true > they are, however. Any thoughts?? > -------------------------------------------- > The matter of stability between Linux and FreeBSD (just to pick a BSD, it > could be Net BSDi or Open, ect..) has been going on for quite some time. For a > while it was all about the innate stability, then linux got better... BSD > stayed the same, basically unchanged since 4.4BSD Lite. In what way was Linux stability versus FreeBSD stability measured? If it is measured in terms of compiling your own original programs, and then testing/debugging, then FreeBSD is far more stable in terms of memory management and i/o to the disk. Often, FreeBSD will return warning messages instead of bailing. I recently had an unfortunate instance where I tried to free a memory handle twice. FreeBSD issued an error message that the page was already free and kept on chugging. RedHat 6.1 conveniently core dumped. > > Then the issue was IP Stacks, BSD has a more stable IP stack than the 2.0.* > series kernel. Then Linux got better, 2.2.* came out and the IP stack was > revamped and as stable as BSD's .... and BSD stayed the same, basically > unchanged since 4.4BSD Lite. > Well, this isn't stack related, but have you compare the functionality of ipfw to ipchains? NAT to masquerading? I know they are both supposed to be the same. But try to perform static NAT with masq. After searching for several days, I managed to download the correct ip_masq program to help with this simple task. Next, try to perform ftp without invoking ip_masq_ftp.o. These are some of the trivial examples that FreeBSD makes a slam dunk, and Linux manages to turn into a two-three day internet search engine experience. > Then there was the issue of 'innate' superiority of BSD over SysV unix. And > POSIX kinda kicked BSD's a$$, heh. And Linux ganked ideas from both sides, so > Linux changed and got better... and BSD stayed the same, basically unchanged > since 4.4BSD Lite. > Let's see, Linux has a 2GB file limit. Linux supports NFS 2 and not 3. Linux supports inittab and rc.local to start up daemons. Now isn't that a treat, you have to understand BSD and SysV in order to track down how you turn off IBM DB2. Which brings up another point. I management to core dump Oracle about three times a week on RedHat. I've only managed to core dump Oracle on FreeBSD once in the last three months. Guess which machine I do Oracle development on? ;-) > Now, from this brief and cursory overview what can we see, hmmmmm?? :) It > looks a lot like for people who think that computing reached its pinnacle of > perfection in the 80's and early 90's... BSD is the way to go... those of us > who are pushing for the latest Intel 1.5 Ghz box and want a volitile computing > environment should stick to Linux. Well, if I were to follow this last article to its ultimate conclusion, I should install Windows 2000 TODAY! I mean, how can you get anymore volatile an environment than an untested, brand new release of Windows? *grin* Now, stop worry about what your buddies, hacker friends, etc. are thinking and choose the OS that is best for you. *==============================================* *Gene Harris http://www.tetronsoftware.com* * Home of TeamAccess version control for * * Microsoft Office 97 and 2000 * * FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE - The Power to Serve * * Redhat 6.1 Secure Web Server * *==============================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 14: 7: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elwood.akitanet.co.uk (elwood.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CFE837B830 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:07:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wigstah@akitanet.co.uk) Received: from elwood.akitanet.co.uk (elwood.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.149]) by elwood.akitanet.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA55766; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:14:22 GMT Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:14:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Paul Robinson To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: <20000217130241.T3509@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > I think your friends are mistaken, BSD isn't stagnating in 80s/early > 90s technology, BSD got it right in the early 90s. Linux is > still playing catch-up and seemingly not doing a very good job at > it. It's 2000, which subsystem in Linux is going to need to be > gutted and redone from scratch this month? I think that's the crux of the argument really - it appears that BSD is generally thought about and planned, and the people doing the coding attempt to think about it before coding. Linux appears to be whatever was covered in Dr. Dobb's last month, or what some 18-year old was taught in his first-year 101 university lecture the semester before... not particularly scientific... At least linux got the *marketing* right... :) -- Paul Robinson - Developer/Systems Administrator @ Akitanet Internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 15: 0: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214B437B868 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:00:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21427; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:28:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:28:08 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Paul Robinson Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Message-ID: <20000217152808.U3509@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000217130241.T3509@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from wigstah@akitanet.co.uk on Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 10:14:22PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Paul Robinson [000217 14:35] wrote: > On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > I think your friends are mistaken, BSD isn't stagnating in 80s/early > > 90s technology, BSD got it right in the early 90s. Linux is > > still playing catch-up and seemingly not doing a very good job at > > it. It's 2000, which subsystem in Linux is going to need to be > > gutted and redone from scratch this month? > > I think that's the crux of the argument really - it appears that BSD is > generally thought about and planned, and the people doing the coding > attempt to think about it before coding. Linux appears to be whatever was > covered in Dr. Dobb's last month, or what some 18-year old was taught in > his first-year 101 university lecture the semester before... not > particularly scientific... > > At least linux got the *marketing* right... :) Right in what sense? If you mean decieving users, then yes, very good, probably better than Microsoft as you'll hear many people mistakenly praise or defend NT, but hardly ever go as far as to flame/attack people that dislike NT unlike recent incidents with Linux. It even amazes me, I've had some pretty technical people tell me that Linux will scale to 32 processors or more, yadda yadda, now this was over a year ago. The current Linux SMP implementation is _sorta_ ok, meaing it's better than nothing, but a year ago it was hardly better than nothing. There's still major codepaths in Linux that look something like this: lock_bar(); lock_baz(); lock_kernel(); do something; unlock_kernel(); unlock_baz(); unlock_bar(); At over 3000 clocks per locked cycle ending with a 'lock everything' I hardly see this as being as scalable as the hype indicates. I'm really suprised how the Linux propoganda machine works, it seems that spreading mis-information and hype about oneself really works. Unfortunatly although tempting, it's not the right thing to do. In my previous email I mentioned about the fsync problem in Linux, it seems that one can mount a Linux partition in 'sync' mode, whether that means sync metadata or sync _all data_ I'm unsure, but the real point is that it ships that way in order to give the appearance of speed, conviently forgetting about reliability and the bottom line, doing the right thing. From the FreeBSD mount manpage: -o Options are specified with a -o flag followed by a comma separat- ed string of options. In case of conflicting options being spec- ified, the rightmost option takes effect. The following options are available: async All I/O to the file system should be done asynchronously. This is a dangerous flag to set, and should not be used unless you are prepared to recreate the file system should your system crash. The linux default install is async, the user is _not_ warned. One of my early posts to the lists in re using FreeBSD was why the heck doing file ops where so darn slow, people explained the concept of meta-data to me and the implications of setting the bit to enable this. With Linux I probably would have never posted, then wondered why my filesystems turned into mush when someone kicked out the power. But, hey, then I would of had a good excuse to try out another Linux distro. :) I like FreeBSD because if something toasts a user I can usually tell them that they were given ample warning not to do XYZ, Linux enables A-Z and expects you to fend for yourself. Please don't bring reiser to the table unless you've read and understood: http://devlinux.com/projects/reiserfs/8_1.html Look, I'm not even really saying that FreeBSD is better, I'm just saying that some truth would be a refreshing change. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 15:30:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 291BF37B8A0 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09909; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:28:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:28:41 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brad Knowles , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Jonathan, On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > > > See some of Matt Dillon's comments regarding Linux. Our memory > >management scheme beats the crap out of theirs, although their SMP is > >ahead of ours. > > Comments on Daemonnews somewhere? Or in the mailing list archives? Yep - go read Matt's fine article about the VM system: http://www.daemonnews.org/200001/freebsd_vm.html He and others have made comments (at least I believe Matt has) at /. in some of the BSD/Slashdot flamewars that have erupted. In addition to this, I still think the ports/package system beats rpms any day. Linux has problems w/ LOTS of memory as I recall (and I mean a LOT) and they certainly have problems w/ big files/filesystems. Their NSF isn't up to par either as I recall. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 15:46: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A325037B85B for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:45:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1848CC5C; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:45:49 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:45:11 +0100 To: Brett Taylor , Jonathon McKitrick From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:28 PM -0500 2000/2/17, Brett Taylor wrote: > Linux has problems w/ LOTS of memory as I recall Yeah, I think anything over 2GB is still a real problem. > (and I mean a LOT) and > they certainly have problems w/ big files/filesystems. Yup. Fsck sucks. > Their NSF isn't up > to par either as I recall. last I checked, although Matt had fixed the NFS itself, we still didn't have a functional lockd, so I'm not sure we should be casting stones on this. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy _________________________________________________________________________ |o| Brad Knowles, Belgacom Skynet NV/SA |o| |o| Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Rue Col. Bourg, 124 |o| |o| Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/726.93.11 B-1140 Brussels |o| |o| http://www.skynet.be Belgium |o| \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Unix is like a wigwam -- no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside. Unix is very user-friendly. It's just picky who its friends are. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 16: 7:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32FA037B893 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07537; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:03:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:03:50 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Taylor , Jonathon McKitrick , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Message-ID: <20000217160350.B2343@orion.ac.hmc.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 12:45:11AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 12:45:11AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > Their NSF isn't up > > to par either as I recall. > > last I checked, although Matt had fixed the NFS itself, we still > didn't have a functional lockd, so I'm not sure we should be casting > stones on this. We've got one in development though (see recent posts by David Cross) and the reset of the implementation is actually stable thanks to all of Matt's work. There's obviously work left to do, but we certaintly don't have much to be ashamed of in this catagory. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 16:38:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EDF37B89C for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:38:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA45342; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:36:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:36:48 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Taylor , Jonathon McKitrick , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:28 PM -0500 2000/2/17, Brett Taylor wrote: > > > Linux has problems w/ LOTS of memory as I recall > > Yeah, I think anything over 2GB is still a real problem. The 2.3 kernel is supposed to be able to handle 4GB, but I don't have a machine to test with. > last I checked, although Matt had fixed the NFS itself, we still > didn't have a functional lockd, so I'm not sure we should be casting > stones on this. Keep up. Things move fast around here! Thanks to David Cross and someone else at RPI, there is one for 4.0. I don't know how well it works, but it has to be better than the one in the system already. Daivd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 19:18:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (fb02.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B80E37B535 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:18:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtg73.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.192.227]) by fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03158; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA00825; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:21:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: j_mckitrick@usa.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments In-Reply-To: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> References: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000217192152N.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:21:52 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 19 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Jonathon McKitrick Subject: BSD vs Linux comments Date: 17 Feb 00 11:27:41 MST > After mentioning to some Linux 'hackers' (not the negative connotation) > that i run BSD, here was the response i got. Although this debate has > been going on for some time, these were some unique observations. > I do not know how true they are, however. Any thoughts?? > -------------------------------------------- [disinformation snipped] > ------------------------------------------------------ > Obviously BSD *has* changed, but is there merit to any of these comments? No. Uninformed FUD. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 20:10:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 513B437B962 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id FAA18663 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 05:09:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 65B878865; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:53:42 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:53:42 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Message-ID: <20000218005342.A88144@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000217182741.20025.qmail@nwcst267.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 09:31:37PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brad Knowles: > %s/NFS/NFR/ I remember Markus Ranum's comments on the Linux network stack two years ago in USENIX (it was before 2.2)... 2.2 has probably got better but they still use the dreaded "SOCK_PACKET" thingy (as opposed to BPF) and that alone make them bad candidate for something like NFR. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #77: Thu Dec 30 12:49:51 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 17 22: 5:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A888537B7B5 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:05:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA37921; Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38ACE132.CC0E0C83@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:05:38 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nuovo DNS (sorry for the mistake) References: <38AA90F5.2B04FE2F@scotty.masternet.it> <4.2.0.58.20000217211106.00a68e40@194.184.65.4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > I have not converted them yet, also because I was not sure on how I have to > do it. > Now reading the man of named I discover that I can specify the default TTL > keyword as the first line of the zone file: > $TTL nnnnnn Amazing what you find when you read the documentation. :) > >But yes, there is a conversion script supplied in the BIND 8 > >contrib directory. > > Fine... I'll check it too, thanks... FYI, other than the $TTL change, the zone file format has not changed in BIND 8. The conversion script converts your named.boot file to named.conf format. If you already have BIND 8 running, you don't need this step. Good luck, Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 18 2:50: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl (wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl [131.155.56.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBAD837B8BC for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 02:49:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karelj@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl) Received: (from karelj@localhost) by wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03961; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:49:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karelj) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:49:37 +0100 From: "Karel J. Bosschaart" To: David Scheidt , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: spam? Message-ID: <20000218114937.A3943@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl> Reply-To: K.J.Bosschaart@wtb.tue.nl References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 02:13:53PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > Anybody else getting spam disguised as a reply to a post to a FreeBSD > mailing list? > > > David > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Yeah, they usually have this typical 2 line majordomo@FreeBSD.org info message but seem to lack the correct header so they don't filter into the appropriate mailbox and land up in my inbox -- it happens occasionally also with real messages to the list though. It doesn't happen so often so it's not really annoying for me (until now). Karel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 18 4:49: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD9337B678 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 04:48:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01952; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:48:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:48:33 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad monkey no cookie for you! In-Reply-To: <20000216222448.A35172@azazel.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2000-02-16 21:55 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > http://www.snowplow.org/cgi-bin/george.pl > > Been there. My high score is only 5300 or so. I did do some nasty > things, though. :( > Yah George Cox sent this to me last night... and I played far enouhg to get on the High Score list (and I'm probably knocked off it by now..) so my score was 5900 or something. *shrug* it was fun, but got slightly boring until I started getting "wanted" Definitely amusing... -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 18 6:36:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 63BC237B817; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:36:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: K.J.Bosschaart@wtb.tue.nl Cc: dscheidt@enteract.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20000218114937.A3943@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl> (karelj@wop21.wop.wtb.tue.nl) Subject: Re: spam? Message-Id: <20000218143627.63BC237B817@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:36:27 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Yeah, they usually have this typical 2 line majordomo@FreeBSD.org info > message but seem to lack the correct header so they don't filter into the > appropriate mailbox and land up in my inbox -- it happens occasionally > also with real messages to the list though. > > It doesn't happen so often so it's not really annoying for me (until now). > > Karel. please send me examples with the headers intact. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 18 9:19:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA0D37B9E6 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01688; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:19:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAL6a4jd; Fri Feb 18 10:19:09 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02544; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:19:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002181719.KAA02544@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD vs. Linux comments To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:19:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Alfred@primenet.com, Perlstein@primenet.com, X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Please don't bring reiser to the table unless you've read > and understood: http://devlinux.com/projects/reiserfs/8_1.html > > Look, I'm not even really saying that FreeBSD is better, I'm > just saying that some truth would be a refreshing change. Cool. I read the Reiser document with interest. They incorrectly spelled "Ganger", and omitted "Patt". The algorithm they use is familiar... hmmm... It is in violation of US Patent 5,666,532, on Delayed Ordered Writes, something I've mentioned many times in the past as being significantly inferior to Soft Updates. Should you tell them, or should I tell Novell? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 18 9:30:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4317237B9F7 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26091; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:23:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAgqaO5Y; Fri Feb 18 10:23:49 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02756; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:24:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200002181724.KAA02756@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments To: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net (Brooks Davis) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:24:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), brett@peloton.runet.edu (Brett Taylor), jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick), j_mckitrick@usa.net (Jonathon McKitrick), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000217160350.B2343@orion.ac.hmc.edu> from "Brooks Davis" at Feb 17, 2000 04:03:50 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > last I checked, although Matt had fixed the NFS itself, we still > > didn't have a functional lockd, so I'm not sure we should be casting > > stones on this. > > We've got one in development though (see recent posts by David Cross) and > the reset of the implementation is actually stable thanks to all of > Matt's work. There's obviously work left to do, but we certaintly don't > have much to be ashamed of in this catagory. It is my understanding that this is server locking code only, and may still have some issues with the POSIX locking semantics. The client locking code requires a reorganization of the VOP_ADVLOCK code, if it is ever to work with layering. Which reminds me that I need to send mail off to the IETF NFSv4 working group to include delayed coelescing in the next RFC draft, or stacking layers will never work with more that one instance of an NFS file system... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 18 10:45:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC6537BA06 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:45:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19832; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:12:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:12:02 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brooks Davis , Brad Knowles , Brett Taylor , Jonathon McKitrick , Jonathon McKitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux comments Message-ID: <20000218111202.O21720@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000217160350.B2343@orion.ac.hmc.edu> <200002181724.KAA02756@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200002181724.KAA02756@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 05:24:01PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Terry Lambert [000218 09:59] wrote: > > > last I checked, although Matt had fixed the NFS itself, we still > > > didn't have a functional lockd, so I'm not sure we should be casting > > > stones on this. > > > > We've got one in development though (see recent posts by David Cross) and > > the reset of the implementation is actually stable thanks to all of > > Matt's work. There's obviously work left to do, but we certaintly don't > > have much to be ashamed of in this catagory. > > > It is my understanding that this is server locking code only, and > may still have some issues with the POSIX locking semantics. > > The client locking code requires a reorganization of the VOP_ADVLOCK > code, if it is ever to work with layering. > > Which reminds me that I need to send mail off to the IETF NFSv4 > working group to include delayed coelescing in the next RFC draft, > or stacking layers will never work with more that one instance of > an NFS file system... Please do! I really don't want another couple of years to go by with a broken standard, don't forget to explain to them that to really get it right (in your own words) you do need the two pass locking, not the downward reserve/ upward commit method though. thanks, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 18 14:10:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sprig.tougas.net (h24-66-217-148.xx.wave.shaw.ca [24.66.217.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A7437BAA0 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:10:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dtougas@sprig.tougas.net) Received: (from dtougas@localhost) by sprig.tougas.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA69076 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:12:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dtougas) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:12:26 -0700 From: Damien Tougas To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Managing multiple servers/workstaions Message-ID: <20000218151226.B68537@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been wandering around a bit on the internet, looking around to see what tools are available for managing groups of FreeBSD servers and workstations. More just for curiosity than anything. From what I can see, the tools seem to be NFS, NIS, NIS+ (I don't know much about either of these), and perhaps LDAP (to some degree). Are there any comments on any of these systems? Are there others that I'm not aware of? Why would someone use LDAP instead of a straight SQL database? I guess that these options are good in a low security situation, i.e. behind a solid firewall, but what do people do when they want to manage multiple servers in a more secure scenario? -- Damien Tougas, P.Eng. Phone: (780)434-5889 Fax: (780)434-5889 E-mail: damien@tougas.net http://www.tougas.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 19 8:14:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cage.tse-online.de (cage.tse-online.de [194.97.69.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2CCE037BC78 for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@cage.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 65017 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Feb 2000 16:17:51 -0000 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 17:17:51 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bad monkey no cookie for you! Message-ID: <20000219171751.D52002@cage.tse-online.de> References: <20000216215535.M3509@fw.wintelcom.net> <38AC350E.FCBBC465@knox.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38AC350E.FCBBC465@knox.edu>; from sunderwo@knox.edu on Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 11:51:11AM -0600 Organization: TSE GmbH - Neue Medien Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 11:51:11AM -0600, The Dagda wrote: > > The monkey stalks and kills three film students camping in the woods > outside Burkittsville, Maryland. The monkey plants anti-personnel landmines in the endzone of a football stadium in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. -ab -- :----------------------------------------------------------------------: : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message