From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat May 16 21:12:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547D02FDB27 for ; Sat, 16 May 2020 21:12:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=JQVm=66=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from mail.sermon-archive.info (sermon-archive.info [71.177.216.148]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49PdJm44X7z431G for ; Sat, 16 May 2020 21:12:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=JQVm=66=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info) Received: from [10.0.1.251] (mini [10.0.1.251]) by mail.sermon-archive.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49PdJl2p3Xz2fjVJ; Sat, 16 May 2020 14:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) Subject: Re: [FreeBSD-Announce] FreeBSD 12.0 end-of-life From: Doug Hardie In-Reply-To: <20200516215243.ec4df83e108b8699291f9de6@sohara.org> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 14:12:23 -0700 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200217231452.717FA1E820@freefall.freebsd.org> <20200218091959.b0220ac75bcfbbced91a5708@sohara.org> <355B9AC5-84F8-48A3-ABD2-14B43AECC9D7@kreme.com> <20200516204553.a317afe4.freebsd@edvax.de> <2C311DED-DF68-4BEB-B322-4468CB5AB31E@mail.sermon-archive.info> <20200516215243.ec4df83e108b8699291f9de6@sohara.org> To: Steve O'Hara-Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.101.4 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49PdJm44X7z431G X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=JQVm=66=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info designates 71.177.216.148 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=JQVm=66=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.40)[-0.400,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:71.177.216.148:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(0.05)[asn: 5650(0.29), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.92)[-0.916,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=JQVm=66=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:5650, ipnet:71.177.216.0/23, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bc979@lafn.org,SRS0=JQVm=66=mail.sermon-archive.info=doug@sermon-archive.info]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 21:12:25 -0000 > On 16 May 2020, at 13:52, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >=20 > On Sat, 16 May 2020 13:12:37 -0700 > Doug Hardie wrote: >=20 >> I started using FreeBSD somewhere between 2.5 and 2.7 and I remember = the >> confusion of those "labels". Yes the information is there, but it's = not >=20 > I started with 1.1 and watched those labels acquire their = meaning > during a period when every user built from sources and upgraded with = make > world. The terms seemed natural in that context and everyone using = FreeBSD > seemed to understand them, then as the OS matured and the user base = widened > it became clear that they were also confusing to some and the mailing = lists > grew noisy on the subject. >=20 >> obvious to the new user. I was running production systems and the = name >> "stable" seemed like the right one. However, the descriptions made = me >> think that perhaps that was not the right choice. I finally settled = on >> "release" but it was quite a difficult decision. >=20 > Before the release patches many people did run production = systems > on stable because the alternative was no changes until the next = release. >=20 >> It might be "obvious" to those who >> know, but it's not for others. >=20 > Not so much obvious as natural from some points of > view, particularly the OS developer point of view, and indeed not = natural > from others which I think came as a surprise to some developers. >=20 > These days I think most users should be running -release, > installing packages, using freebsd-update and not going anywhere near > sources. Originally, I had to compile from sources as one of the production = systems needed quotas. There was no way to use the generic kernel. It = was a pain to upgrade a production server. I went to a single = development machine which contained the source and built the production = kernel. However, you still had to run mergemaster on each system which = was never fast since you had to figure out the differences between many = config files to make sure everything would continue to run. The need for quotas went away and now I only run -release with = freebsd-update for all but a couple ports which don't seem to have = packages. I keep the full source on one development system so that I = can reference it when I encounter something in my code that doesn't make = sense. Often I encounter obtuse errorm messages, and seeing what causes = them makes it much easier to correct the problem. -- Doug