From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 8 12:03:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20335 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from magus.users.xmission.com (magus@magus.users.xmission.com [207.135.128.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20271 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from magus@xmission.com) Received: (from magus@localhost) by magus.users.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13846; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:02:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from magus) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Hello? From: magus@xmission.com (Anthony C. Chavez) Date: 08 Jun 1998 13:02:23 -0600 Message-ID: <87ra0zpvi8.fsf@magus.users.xmission.com> Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just re-subscribed to the list and I'm not receiving anything. Is the list dead? -- Anthony Chavez Ph'nglui mglw'nafh "BOB" D'lyeh Wgah'nagl Dhobbz f'htagn. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 9 06:52:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25878 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:52:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25848 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:52:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-26.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.75]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA00006 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:52:32 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980609065539.0069a598@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 06:55:39 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Classroom Advertising Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been taking a networking class this summer, and luckily my instructor likes Unix. She's a Unix instuctor at another school. After trying to sell the "Complete FreeBSD" book as the perfect book when begining to learn Unix to a few of my classmates, I then turned to the teacher and said that it would make a great classroom text book. I told her that the advantages of FreeBSD being free and coming with the book makes it a great way for students to get a hold of their own Unix operating system to learn at home from. Also, I told her that the Complete FreeBSD book covered just about everything needed to setup a FreeBSD box.....from Installation, to setting up the Desktop, to setting up a network. Next time I think I'm gonna bring the book to class and let her check it out for herself. Imagine a school using FreeBSD as their text book? That would rock! Let's see if I can close the deal. :) Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 9 14:41:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10625 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:41:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10602 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07141; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:40:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:40:53 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Joey Garcia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Classroom Advertising In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980609065539.0069a598@pacificnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > > I've been taking a networking class this summer, and luckily my instructor > likes Unix. She's a Unix instuctor at another school. > > After trying to sell the "Complete FreeBSD" book as the perfect book when > begining to learn Unix to a few of my classmates, I then turned to the > teacher and said that it would make a great classroom text book. I told > her that the advantages of FreeBSD being free and coming with the book > makes it a great way for students to get a hold of their own Unix operating > system to learn at home from. Also, I told her that the Complete FreeBSD > book covered just about everything needed to setup a FreeBSD box.....from > Installation, to setting up the Desktop, to setting up a network. > > Next time I think I'm gonna bring the book to class and let her check it > out for herself. Imagine a school using FreeBSD as their text book? That > would rock! Let's see if I can close the deal. :) Well, you might want to also run off a few papers or drag in a copy of "The Design and Implementation of 4.4BSD" by McKusick, et. al. I don't know the scope of you class, but it is more of an educational text. It is nice to point out that there are hundreds of great papers on the design and implmentation of the OS and that is isn't just a recent hack. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 9 17:01:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05857 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from crimson.protovision (root@p130-11.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.203.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05840 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stjerneby@usa.net) Received: from usa.net (bwulf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by crimson.protovision (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00700; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:59:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from stjerneby@usa.net) Message-ID: <357DCB55.922966C5@usa.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:55:01 +0200 From: Sune Stjerneby Reply-To: stjerneby@usa.net Organization: Organised, me? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unix Review --NT suckup rag References: <22170.896968468@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Have you spoken to the bsd programming team yet? > > Who's that? :) Wasn't the CSRG shut down after the release of Lite2? In all my printed O'Reilly/USENIX 4.4BSD documentation, the CSRG is referred to in past tense. Also, the fourth page has the heading; The Computer Systems Research Group 1979-1993 (with a *long* listing of indviduals, including Bostic, McKusick et al) -- //bwulf - Sune Stjerneby , [2:238/260.4], ++45 56219988, DK-208, EU -- "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." -- "4.4BSD UNIX - A Real Operating System for Real Users." -- http://www.FreeBSD.ORG, http://www.NetBSD.ORG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 10 01:28:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA26991 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA26984 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-212.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.212]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id BAA27133; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:28:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: , "Joey Garcia" Subject: Re: Classroom Advertising Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:09:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd943e$ac4db960$cd01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG removal of this copyright notice is prohibited. revision is prohibited. if you find this of use, $200 cash or $500 zero coupon bond (post dated check) is requested. authorized firms $10k. professional entities required. trademarks implied. redistribution encouraged.* resistance is futile. (c) beth landry 1998 >Joey Garcia said: >After trying to sell the "Complete FreeBSD" book as the perfect book when >begining to learn Unix to a few of my classmates, I then turned to the >teacher and said that it would make a great classroom text book. I told did you call Walnut Creek CDROM and ask for distributor sales - Kelly Hall? my email disappears into cdrom&HSTcom blackhole. jackv earthling net. get two free copies of the cheaper freebsd merchandise. then you should get 5% of the final sale price. have them type your merchant id number -- make one up -- into the distributor sales place. the tax saved is your commission. and for the downline coding required. >her that the advantages of FreeBSD being free and coming with the book >makes it a great way for students to get a hold of their own Unix operating >system to learn at home from. Also, I told her that the Complete FreeBSD >book covered just about everything needed to setup a FreeBSD box.....from >Installation, to setting up the Desktop, to setting up a network. yes. this is thirty to ninety sales per 6 months. or so. and more. the residuals could go on for a long time, maybe. tell kelly hi and you should get a good discount, but you're going to phone your orders in to her, eh? they drop ship them. >Next time I think I'm gonna bring the book to class and let her check it >out for herself. Imagine a school using FreeBSD as their text book? That >would rock! Let's see if I can close the deal. :) attaboy! but, be warned, it might take six or nine months to close the deal. purchasing cycles sometimes take a long time. i agree, the book and OS would be a perfect teaching tool for any OS course. you should get a commission on any books sold in the book store, too, so you go over there and make sure the products are displayed well and kept up to date. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 10 13:35:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08201 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:35:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08149; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14017; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:34:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <357EEDDA.4787F98A@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:34:34 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG CC: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? References: <199806101924.OAA09390@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass recently lamented: > It's certainly getting a lot of press. See > > http://209.167.41.132/products/announcement.htm John S. Dyson replied: % We can fret about it, or do something about it, with % our respective skills. I do kernel stuff well, but % do not do PR well. Those who see a problem, and % can do something about it, should feel free to % participate in the solution. % % All I know is that FreeBSD is not shrinking. This months cover feature in "Embedded Systems Programming" magazine is an article about embedding Windows NT. Bleh. What a ridiculous way to make a living. I know there are several currently shipping systems with FreeBSD embedded. I'd like to write an article for ESPmag about embedding FreeBSD. If you have worked on such a system, and would like to collaborate with me, please respond directly to me. I'd like to include information about PicoBSD, if any of the principals in that would like to help. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 10 14:27:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23042 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@pm3-44.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22967 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12941; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:27:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tech support structure In-Reply-To: <29700.897061384@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > most of the WC secretaries that we paid $6 to $14 hour did this. well. > > I was looking for more qualified personnel than that. It's one thing > to support joe bloggs, the CD customer, and another to support a > full-blown ISP. They're just not the same thing and you should go put > in some time at an ISP if you'd like to see what they really have to > deal with day to day. It's instructive. Yes, it really is. And I know of at least one ISP that has steered away from FreeBSD (and other free offerings) purely based on the fact that there's no comercial support like there is for BSDI. This despite the fact that two fact that two of the head techies use FreeBSD at home.... - alex | "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | | technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | | Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 10 15:58:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13746 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13677 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:58:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA61270 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:58:08 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:01:48 -0400 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Complimentary article on FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG People here might be interested in reading: http://RhapsodyOS.com/editorial/stone/ST00014.html Which is an article called: "Home of the Brave, Land of the FreeBSD" The author is a guy who has been a long-time developer under NeXTSTEP, with a few popular (for NeXTSTEP) applications to his credit. And obviously, he's still writing code for the new Rhapsody (or MacOS Ten) OS coming from Apple. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 10 19:01:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17604 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17559; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-197.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.197]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04868; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:01:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n4hhe.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22523; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:43:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@n4hhe.ampr.org) Message-Id: <199806110143.UAA22523@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-reply-to: Message from Wes Peters of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:34:34 MDT." <357EEDDA.4787F98A@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:43:30 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters writes: > > This months cover feature in "Embedded Systems Programming" magazine > is an article about embedding Windows NT. Bleh. What a ridiculous > way to make a living. I wasn't interested so only scanned the article. Most of what I saw was very negative about using NT in an embedded application. Pointed out how many extra cost addons were needed to do all the little things one is supposed to be using an OS for. OTOH the only positive side to NT was the ability to use Microsoft's tools such as Visual Basic, Access, etc. That was a "positive"? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 10 19:11:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19750 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:11:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19653 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (xeros-2-63.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.94.191]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA12835 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:11:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA06756 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:11:04 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980611021104.ZM6755@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:11:04 +0000 In-Reply-To: Amancio Hasty "Re: BSD vs Linux" (May 12, 11:18pm) References: <199805130618.XAA13127@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Letter to Unix Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a rejoinder to a letter to the editor that was critical of Don wilde's letter. The response to Don was a piece of crap FreeBSD bash IMHO. Besides, I just love bugging the editor, the NT suckup. >From fpawlak Thu Jun 11 02:04:46 1998 From: "Frank Pawlak" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:35:27 +0000 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: mhall@mfi.com Subject: Linux Smokes FreeBSD! Where are the facts? Dear Editor: After reading Bill Koonce's letter to the editor, Linux Smokes FreeBSD, in the July 1998 issue of Performance Computing, I was left with the sense of wondering what was his real point. The letter is bye and large made up of unsubstantiated claims and just plain silly statements. The title of the letter is Linux Smokes FreeBSD, yet nowhere is that claim backed up by any facts. His statement that he inherited a FreeBSD mail server that gave him fits because of lack of technical support does not stand on it's own merits. He never claims that replacing the server with a Linux server solved his problem. FreeBSD doesn't lack for technical support Bill, had you made some small effort to find it. If you were looking for technical support on the Yahoo Message Boards, you were in the wrong place. There is not only a news group, but there are several mailing lists listed at www.freebsd.org that you could have utilized for technical support. These resources are frequented by experienced FreeBSD users and developers that are all too willing to answer questions. Had you looked there your news server problems could have been fixed rather quickly. The criticism of the books available for FreeBSD and that the inclusion of man pages in them was of little value makes one wonder about his general knowledge of UNIX. Even the newbee knows that the man pages included with every version of UNIX are an invaluable reference source for proper configuration and operation. The claim of only two books being available is completely untrue, as I have within easy reach at least five books relating to BSD UNIX. Yes BSD UNIX books and reference materials apply to FreeBSD because it is a direct decendent of the BSD project at the University of California at Berkeley. Yes there are a number of commercial versions of Linux available, however, each is a different configuration because there is no such thing as a standard version of Linux. The only standard part of Linux is the kernel, and a kernel is not an operating system. FreeBSD is a complete operating system, not just a kernel There is only one release of FreeBSD, and it is available with a very good book titled The Complete FreeBSD, that contains all the information necessary to get a system up and running. This book covers system configuration, network setup, connecting to the Internet, DNS, firewalls and much more. I run both Linux and FreeBSD, and have found the FreeBSD book to be better written and more complete than any that comes with Linux. Linus Torvalds created Linux because he wanted to hack UNIX, and a free BSD UNIX was not available at that time. Prior to 386BSD, BSD code was tied up by an AT&T legal action and therefore was not freely available for hackers. Linus himself has stated that had BSD code been freely available Linux would never have happened. Bill, you stated general problems with UNIX were overcome because Linus shared the kernel code. What problems were you referring to. FreeSBD has a user base estimated at about 1,000,000, and is experiencing exponential growth. BSDI is a comercial version of BSD UNIX and is experiencing similiar growth. To state that FreeBSD is the last gasp of a fine research project that is now over is vary miss-informed statement regarding the reality of the results of that research project. BSD lives on is is very healthy. Stating that Linux is UNIX II, what ever that means, is a totally unsubstantiated claim. In fact Linux is not UNIX but a UNIX clone, and because of trademark issues neither Linux not FreeBSD can be called UNIX. However, because FreeBSD has its' roots in the same code that used to be called BSD UNIX, it is not entirely accurate to call it UNIX like, UNIX compatable, or even a UNIX clone. Bill's letter is nothing more than FreeBSD bashing. I will not stoop to that level and engage in Linux bashing. Both are open source operating systems. Linux is a fine operating system and performs great within its' design parameters. FreeBSD is designed to handle heavy server loads on Intell platforms, a job it does without peer. And there are facts and figures available to back that up. Perhaps the time has come for an experienced Performance Computing columnist to do indepth research into the current state of open source operating systems and present the facts in an unbiased way. Frank Pawlak Senior Consultant Rindy Consulting Inc. Milwaukee, WI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 10 19:30:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23288 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23166; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11699; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:29:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110229.VAA11699@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-Reply-To: <199806110143.UAA22523@nospam.hiwaay.net> from David Kelly at "Jun 10, 98 08:43:30 pm" To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:29:25 -0500 (EST) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Kelly said: > Wes Peters writes: > > > > This months cover feature in "Embedded Systems Programming" magazine > > is an article about embedding Windows NT. Bleh. What a ridiculous > > way to make a living. > > I wasn't interested so only scanned the article. Most of what I saw was > very negative about using NT in an embedded application. Pointed out how > many extra cost addons were needed to do all the little things one is > supposed to be using an OS for. OTOH the only positive side to NT was > the ability to use Microsoft's tools such as Visual Basic, Access, etc. > That was a "positive"? > Some people LOVE the MS development environment. I really don't though. As my grandmother always says "whatever blows your skirt up" :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 03:57:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA17418 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:57:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub029.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA17378 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01083; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:00:38 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: X-Sender: freebsd@mail.pronet.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:32:24 +1000 To: Garance A Drosihn From: phil grainger Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG this actually highlights a major problem with the freebsd project, these apple guys are cvsing their rapsody product of freebsd cvs sites all our work in making freebsd stable, fast, reliable and user friendly is going into apples coffers, don't forget apple is 20%+ owned by microsoft. even when we win, we loose. linux is looking better and better all the time ... maybe someone in the freebsd organisation should put a submittion to apple to commit some resources ???? a commercial freebsd would stop this problem or at least force apple to do the right thing At 07:01 PM 10/06/1998 -0400, you wrote: >People here might be interested in reading: > >http://RhapsodyOS.com/editorial/stone/ST00014.html > >Which is an article called: > "Home of the Brave, Land of the FreeBSD" > >The author is a guy who has been a long-time developer >under NeXTSTEP, with a few popular (for NeXTSTEP) >applications to his credit. And obviously, he's still >writing code for the new Rhapsody (or MacOS Ten) OS >coming from Apple. > >--- >Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu >Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu >Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 03:59:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA17946 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub029.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA17940 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01091 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:03:12 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Message-Id: X-Sender: right@m1.gdr.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:04:23 +1000 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG
Its not much,
BUT they did print it !
and it does highlight more than just the name.
Being negative all the time about how the world treats freebsd doesn't achieve much.
Maybe if Walnut Creek put a few lush adds in Unix Review extolling their distro of FreeBSD, they might suddenly find that freebsd is viable to advocate ;-)
With most of their advertising revenue coming from smaller companies trying to break into the bigger market, it easy to see why NT is flavour of the year.
They gave samba a nice thumbs up in a review against commercial smb servers. Samba is at least as important as freebsd in the rise of freeware, open standards and slowing NT's innevitable domination of the LAN-land.
For those net heads, who think that a T3 is cool, samba pumps out data with a burst rate of about 8Mbyte a second, 12Mbyte if your on a pII400, ie hard drive speed.

All those in favour of 'positive advocacy' say AYE.

gdr computers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 04:15:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22339 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA22272 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10822; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:15:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806111115.EAA10822@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: phil grainger cc: Garance A Drosihn , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:32:24 +1000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:15:00 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Relax , we know about this and lets please kill this thread. Yes, Apple is probably accessing the cvs tree and they did ask for permission to access it. Tnks, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 06:08:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08669 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08663 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01802; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:08:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: phil grainger cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:04:23 +1000." Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:08:13 -0700 Message-ID: <1797.897570493@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >
Its not much,
>
BUT they did print it !
>
YIKES! Please, for the sake of us old-timers, turn the HTML off. :( Needless to say, I'm not even going to make an attempt to read this - it's just too cluttered up with HTML tags. My MH doesn't like HTML and I'll use netscape to read my mail about the same time that hell freezes over. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 06:15:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09564 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09509 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01836; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: phil grainger cc: Garance A Drosihn , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:32:24 +1000." Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:14:47 -0700 Message-ID: <1832.897570887@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > this actually highlights a major problem with the freebsd project, > these apple guys are cvsing their rapsody product of freebsd cvs sites > all our work in making freebsd stable, fast, reliable and user friendly is > going into apples coffers, don't forget apple is 20%+ owned by microsoft. I don't see that as a problem at all. Even if Microsoft "lifted" substantial chunks of our code, and it's hard to even use a term like that when talking about free software ("why did you guys give it away if you didn't want people using it for whatever??"), that would probably be a win for the industry at large. The TCP/IP stack in Win95 SUCKS, it's something which lots of us still have to live with at customer sites, and I'd be happy as heck if they admitted defeat and simply started basing everything on BSD. It ain't gonna happen, but I'd still sure be happy if it did. :-) > maybe someone in the freebsd organisation should put a submittion to apple > to commit some resources ???? > > a commercial freebsd would stop this problem or at least force apple to do > the right thing The very concept that it's reasonable or even moral to "force someone to do the right thing" is exactly what I abhor most about the GPL and the Linux advocates who espouse such an approach. It quite simply stinks and is the free market equivalent of bait-and-switch, "Oh, you can have this for free, but only if you use it in the ways that WE approve of." If apple wants to "do the right thing" by tossing resources at us then fine, that's wonderful. If they don't, then that's fine too. Resources delivered only at gunpoint are resources we can all live without. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 06:18:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10176 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA10149 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:18:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id JAA09295; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:18:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: phil grainger cc: Garance A Drosihn , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, phil grainger wrote: > this actually highlights a major problem with the freebsd project, > these apple guys are cvsing their rapsody product of freebsd cvs sites > all our work in making freebsd stable, fast, reliable and user friendly is > going into apples coffers, don't forget apple is 20%+ owned by microsoft. > even when we win, we loose. > linux is looking better and better all the time ... HUSH! less the dark penguin be summoned from the depths of hell. > maybe someone in the freebsd organisation should put a submittion to apple > to commit some resources ???? Core has already been in contact with the apple folks. I have a feeling they worked something out. We may not get a massive re-investment like a GUI or anything :) But apple did come forward to approach core. So who knows what was discussed. It would only make sense that if they wanted help and maybe some extra code fromt eh people who WROTE this OS that apple would try and give back a little in good will. Course apple also could have just said, uh were taking your OS and just wanted to say thanks, and if you expect anything back you can take a long walk off a short peir :) Either way are you really thinking of leaving the greatest OS of all time because people USE the code? > the right thing Thats the nature of the BSD license beast. Your forgetting that everyone who writes code for BSD is doing this not for profit, not for glory, but mostly for *FUN*. Even Paul vixie who is taking his product commericial thinks the GPL is *EVIL*. Having a reference implementation like FreeBSD is the REASON why there are other OS's and products like bind, etc.. Almost every OS in the freeworld is using a BSD network stack. The reason? The source is available with NO strings attached. Ever wonder why no one is using a MS stack? :) besides the fact it sucks and no one with half a brain cell would. Its because its closed, doesnt work, and is not open to scrutiny. God bless reference implementations! Besides as paul pointed out he gets quite a charge knowing his software is being used in major vendors products. Chris -- "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 07:17:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24967 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:17:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24912 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:17:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15803; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:17:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <358138DE.F263A9D3@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:19:10 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: phil grainger , Garance A Drosihn , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD References: <199806111115.EAA10822@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Relax , we know about this and lets please kill this thread. > > Yes, Apple is probably accessing the cvs tree and they did ask > for permission to access it. And besides, if you go read the license statements in all "our" source files, THEY'RE ALLOWED TO DO THIS!!! Whaddya want, to have all the FreeBSD code infected with the GPL virus? Why do you think Apple dropped support of MkLinux? It would be nice if they'd throw some $$$ at FreeBSD Inc., but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I may have to call my cousin, who's an engineering Director over at the fruit company, though. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 07:34:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27587 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27579 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:34:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15832; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:34:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35813CCF.84C9FAE2@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:35:59 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: phil grainger CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG phil grainger wrote: > > Its not much, > BUT they did print it ! > http://www.performancecomputing.com/unixreview/backissu/9706adv.htm > and it does highlight more than just the name. > Being negative all the time about how the world treats freebsd doesn't achieve > much. > Maybe if Walnut Creek put a few lush adds in Unix Review extolling their distro > of FreeBSD, they might suddenly find that freebsd is viable to advocate ;-) > With most of their advertising revenue coming from smaller companies trying to > break into the bigger market, it easy to see why NT is flavour of the year. > They gave samba a nice thumbs up in a review against commercial smb servers. > Samba is at least as important as freebsd in the rise of freeware, open > standards and slowing NT's innevitable domination of the LAN-land. > For those net heads, who think that a T3 is cool, samba pumps out data with a > burst rate of about 8Mbyte a second, 12Mbyte if your on a pII400, ie hard drive > speed. > > All those in favour of 'positive advocacy' say AYE. > > gdr computers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with > "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message Yeah, but that *was* before they became "NT Suckup Magazine." The part I dislike the most is that they cut S.K.B.s word count by about half. His column was my primary reason for renewing my subscription. I'm down to SunExpert (for the "Ask Mr. Protocol" column by M.O'B.) and Embedded Systems Programming, which has never been all that good, but at least has columns by P.J.P., which is information, and Jack Ganssle, which is opinionated (and worth reading). I fear that eventually the only computer magazines on the planet will be PC World, which is about as content-free as you can get, and Gamers World. At that point, I'll just have to leave. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 08:05:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02826 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02768 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:04:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id IAA30700; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:04:26 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id IAA32132; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:54:08 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Frank Pawlak cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to Unix Review In-Reply-To: <980611021104.ZM6755@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: Hello Frank. Is that letter under an OPEN SOURCE license? I would like to plagarize it every chance I get. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 08:22:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06636 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06552 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02510; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:21:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters cc: phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:35:59 MDT." <35813CCF.84C9FAE2@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:21:23 -0700 Message-ID: <2506.897578483@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Yeah, but that *was* before they became "NT Suckup Magazine." The part > I dislike the most is that they cut S.K.B.s word count by about half. > His column was my primary reason for renewing my subscription. I'm down > to SunExpert (for the "Ask Mr. Protocol" column by M.O'B.) and Embedded > Systems Programming, which has never been all that good, but at least > has columns by P.J.P., which is information, and Jack Ganssle, which is > opinionated (and worth reading). Hear hear. "Performance Computing" AKA "NT Review" is now an entirely worthless publication for the Unix enthusiast and goes straight into my trashcan when it arrives. And yes, on every single issue they beg me to "Renew! Renew!" while I'm meanwhile trying to figure out how to get them to "Stop! Stop!" sending this tree-killing wastage to me at all. I figured they'd lose patience over 8 months ago, when I last decided I was never, ever going to resubscribe again, but they just keep sending the damn things like junk mail. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 09:27:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23567 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub015.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23530 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:27:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA00376 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:30:35 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199806111630.CAA00376@m1.gdr.net.au> X-Sender: right@m1.gdr.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:31:44 +1000 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: I don't even read unix review ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG but I can't blaim them if there advertisers are saying go with NT stories/product reviews. the commercial unix market is pretty tightly controlled. after all, where would advocating freebsd get them ? a lot of p$%^&-off advertisers ... does WC even advertise in it ? phil To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 10:30:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07053 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:30:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07022 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA56530; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:29:59 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:33:40 -0400 To: phil grainger From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 3:32 PM +1000 6/11/98, phil grainger wrote: > this actually highlights a major problem with the freebsd project, > these apple guys are cvsing their rapsody product of freebsd cvs > sites all our work in making freebsd stable, fast, reliable and > user friendly is going into apples coffers, ... Geez. I thought the article itself was good publicity. As such, I thought it would be good news to pass along in the group of people who claim to be interested in good publicity for FreeBSD. If you have problems with the FreeBSD project, well, those are your problems, but I still think the web article was good publicity. I also thought people might be particularly happy that this was an article which actually used FreeBSD in the title, instead of talking about Linux and only adding FreeBSD as a footnote. Now, admittedly, it probably made the title because the word "FreeBSD" helped him to have a cute title. But the article itself did say some nice things about FreeBSD in specific, so it was more than just a cute title. But no, let's have another thread about someone's sour grapes. It is so much more entertaining to bitch and moan than just read a damn web page that's saying good things about a project we claim to be interested in. > a commercial freebsd would stop this problem or at least force > apple to do the right thing In my own personal opinion, a commercial FreeBSD which intends to *force* people to do much of anything would be much less appealing. Why do you hate Microsoft? Because it likes to force people to do things whatever way it sees fit. To fight that, you intend to force people to do different things, as *you* see fit. It is time to review the lessons of "The Devil and Daniel Webster". You don't beat the devil by following his practices. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 12:16:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01068 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01029 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:16:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-112.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.240]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA12646; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:16:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA08936; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:16:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980611191620.ZM8935@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:16:19 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review" (Jun 11, 6:08am) References: <1797.897570493@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , phil grainger Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 11, 6:08am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review > >
Its not much,
> >
BUT they did print it !
> >
> > YIKES! Please, for the sake of us old-timers, turn the HTML off. :( > Needless to say, I'm not even going to make an attempt to read this - > it's just too cluttered up with HTML tags. > > My MH doesn't like HTML and I'll use netscape to read my mail about > the same time that hell freezes over. :) > Ditto!! Frank > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 12:36:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05102 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:36:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04986 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-112.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.240]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA29711; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:35:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA09005; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:35:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980611193547.ZM9004@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:35:47 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" "Re: Letter to Unix Review" (Jun 11, 7:54am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason C. Wells" , Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Letter to Unix Review Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 11, 7:54am, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Subject: Re: Letter to Unix Review > On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > Hello Frank. Is that letter under an OPEN SOURCE license? I would like to > plagarize it every chance I get. > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > | 206-633-5994 >-- End of excerpt from Jason C. Wells It is under the plagarize at will license. Beware, it is full of grammatical and spelling errors, which were pointed out to me by a most kind soul to which I owe a public debt of gratitude. BTW, I am in the process of working on a document for advocacy purposes and could use some help with the technical issues. I posted an outline a few weeks ago. If you are inclined to be of assistance, it would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 12:48:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08670 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08487 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-112.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.240]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA15629; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:47:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA09020; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:47:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980611194751.ZM9019@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:47:51 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review" (Jun 11, 8:21am) References: <2506.897578483@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wes Peters Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review Cc: phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Perhaps we need to keep reminding them of the fate of BYTE after they changed their focus. It's a shame, but there are very few good mags left. Frank On Jun 11, 8:21am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review > > Yeah, but that *was* before they became "NT Suckup Magazine." The part > > I dislike the most is that they cut S.K.B.s word count by about half. > > His column was my primary reason for renewing my subscription. I'm down > > to SunExpert (for the "Ask Mr. Protocol" column by M.O'B.) and Embedded > > Systems Programming, which has never been all that good, but at least > > has columns by P.J.P., which is information, and Jack Ganssle, which is > > opinionated (and worth reading). > > Hear hear. "Performance Computing" AKA "NT Review" is now an entirely > worthless publication for the Unix enthusiast and goes straight into > my trashcan when it arrives. And yes, on every single issue they beg > me to "Renew! Renew!" while I'm meanwhile trying to figure out how to > get them to "Stop! Stop!" sending this tree-killing wastage to me at > all. I figured they'd lose patience over 8 months ago, when I last > decided I was never, ever going to resubscribe again, but they just > keep sending the damn things like junk mail. :-) > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 12:59:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11949 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA11786 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-112.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.240]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA02187; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:59:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA09030; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:59:05 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980611195904.ZM9029@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:59:04 +0000 In-Reply-To: Garance A Drosihn "Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD" (Jun 11, 1:33pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Garance A Drosihn , phil grainger Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 11, 1:33pm, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD > At 3:32 PM +1000 6/11/98, phil grainger wrote: > > this actually highlights a major problem with the freebsd project, > > these apple guys are cvsing their rapsody product of freebsd cvs > > sites all our work in making freebsd stable, fast, reliable and > > user friendly is going into apples coffers, ... > > Geez. > > I thought the article itself was good publicity. As such, I thought > it would be good news to pass along in the group of people who claim > to be interested in good publicity for FreeBSD. If you have problems > with the FreeBSD project, well, those are your problems, but I still > think the web article was good publicity. > > I also thought people might be particularly happy that this was an > article which actually used FreeBSD in the title, instead of talking > about Linux and only adding FreeBSD as a footnote. Now, admittedly, > it probably made the title because the word "FreeBSD" helped him to > have a cute title. But the article itself did say some nice things > about FreeBSD in specific, so it was more than just a cute title. > > But no, let's have another thread about someone's sour grapes. It > is so much more entertaining to bitch and moan than just read a damn > web page that's saying good things about a project we claim to be > interested in. Hear Hear!!!! Bitching and moaning is getting to be almost a hallmark of FreeBSD Advocacy. I agree why don't we take the make nice strokes we get, where ever thay are from, stop the bullshit and build on the positive. I have seen a lot of positives and good ideas surface and die here in the last three months to almost make one want to cry out enough already!!! BTW, This is not sour grapes regarding my rebuttal to UNIX Review, or to any of those remarking on the BSD/GPL license issues. It is directed at the attitude in general. Frank > > > a commercial freebsd would stop this problem or at least force > > apple to do the right thing > > In my own personal opinion, a commercial FreeBSD which intends to > *force* people to do much of anything would be much less appealing. > > Why do you hate Microsoft? Because it likes to force people to > do things whatever way it sees fit. To fight that, you intend > to force people to do different things, as *you* see fit. It is > time to review the lessons of "The Devil and Daniel Webster". > You don't beat the devil by following his practices. > > --- > Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu > Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu > Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Garance A Drosihn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 13:07:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14437 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14387 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 2783 invoked by uid 24); 11 Jun 1998 20:07:05 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980611131143.0082fdf0@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:11:43 -0700 To: phil grainger From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:32 PM 6/11/98 +1000, phil grainger wrote: >maybe someone in the freebsd organisation should put a submittion to apple >to commit some resources ???? Though the responses to this have been good, the one thing it looked like people didn't mention was this: it's in Apple's technological interests to contribute back to the project. I'm sure if they don't see that now they'll see it eventually. Heck, they may already have contributors doing work under non-apple.com addresses. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- pure chewing satisfaction brian@apache.org brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 15:04:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11379 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:04:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11203 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:03:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA24034 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:03:05 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id PAA02681 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:52:49 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What became of... In-Reply-To: <980611195904.ZM9029@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry to have been away for so long, school is finally out. I can catch up on things. TGISummer! Has anything become of the proposed charter? Perhaps I should "rethread" that subject? Has anything become of survey/information gathering mission? If not then I and another UW student will be working on that in short order. Any really exciting things happen here? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 15:53:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21867 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:53:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21846 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:52:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-207-214-220-64.snfc21.pacbell.net [207.214.220.64]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id PAA26198 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:52:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" Cc: Subject: html email Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:38:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>
Its not much,
>>
BUT they did print it !
>>
> >YIKES! Please, for the sake of us old-timers, turn the HTML off. :( this is one of the biggest problems with FreeBSD. html mail is THE standard everywhere except MH doesn't grok it. is there progress in that direction? does any free unix mail package do html mail well? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 16:53:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04712 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:53:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04290 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:51:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wpeters@xylan.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.1 [OUT])) id QAA12372; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id QAA12270; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:50:42 -0700 Received: from xylan.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id RAA20532; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:50:41 -0600 Message-ID: <35806D94.73FCB3DF@xylan.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:51:48 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Xylan Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com Subject: Fast Search reveals articles about FreeBSD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C7A6AE2EA3A8BAAD765FE5EB" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C7A6AE2EA3A8BAAD765FE5EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was reading a Web-zine (or is that e-zine these days?) and came across a banner ad to search computer trade rags for any topic, so I entered "FreeBSD" and hit the button. It came up with 74 entries. Here, try it yourself: http://cma.zdnet.com/texis/cma/cma/~OJYeNHzS/edit.html?feditsrch=FreeBSD&name=Go%21 -- Wes Peters Who's going to save you Principal Engineer When you're a slave to Xylan Corporation A diamond as big as the Ritz wpeters@xylan.com -- Jimmy Buffett --------------C7A6AE2EA3A8BAAD765FE5EB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="edit.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="edit.html" Content-Base: "http://cma.zdnet.com/texis/cma/cma/~OJ YeNHzS/edit.html?feditsrch=FreeBSD& name=Go%21" Fast Search
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Search for (all words): FreeBSD
Results: 74 items found
Get Better Insight
The need to track, chart, and analyze traffic data on business Websites hasn't diminished one iota since Accrue Software released the first version of Insight in December 1996. On the...
06/01/98 Internet Computing  

Xi brings display server to OpenGL environment.
Display Server which includes Silicon Graphic Inc.'s OpenGL 1.1. The 3-D Accelerated-X Display Server enables users to display 3-D graphics using Linux or FreeBSD on an Intel PC. It...
05/25/98 Computing Canada  

News Digest
Americas II Cable System, a fiber-optic undersea cable linking the U.S. with the Caribbean and South America. Expected to be in service by September 1999, the new system supposedly has...
05/09/98 Interactive Home  

Integration: Snapsite: Add forms without learning CGI.
Media In Motion this week gave new form to its server-side Web site creation tool. Snapsite 1.5 adds forms capabilities to its arsenal. Users can enter the Form Tools area and add components...
05/04/98 MacWEEK  

Snapsite: Add forms without learning CGI
Media In Motion this week gave new form to its server-side Web site creation tool. Snapsite 1.5 adds forms capabilities to its arsenal. Users can enter the Form Tools area and add components...
05/04/98 MacWEEK  

Mail
Paul Somerson's March column was so refreshing ("Guilty!" page 87). Kudos to him for admitting that Windows is a piece of trash. It's cyberlitter. Bill Gates is rich because...
05/01/98 PC Computing  

Mail.
Paul Somerson's March column was so refreshing ("Guilty!" page 87). Kudos to him for admitting that Windows is a piece of trash. It's cyberlitter. Bill Gates is rich because he's a slick,...
05/01/98 PC/Computing  

Letters.
Desktop TCP/IP At Middle Age" in the February 1998 issue (Net Worth, p. 19). We were disappointed, however, that there was only a passing reference to the Kermit project, lumped together...
04/01/98 UNIX Review's Performance Computing  

Windows NT C/C++ development basics, part 1.
Windows NT and Windows 95/98 applications. Microsoft has the advantage because it owns Windows and developing Windows applications takes more than a compiler. Windows technology is changing...
04/01/98 UNIX Review's Performance Computing  

WebCalendar 1.0
Linux version of Bluecoast Software (Fremont, CA) WebCalendar because the Windows NT version was still in beta at the time of this review. Besides Linux it also supports BSD, FreeBSD,...
04/01/98 Internet Computing  

HP To Help Providers Fight Fires
Come April, Hewlett-Packard Co. will unveil new monitoring software for medium-sized Internet service providers. The package is called - for better or worse - Firehunter. What sounds...
03/16/98 Inter@ctive Week  

DEC's Prioris HX6266 server.
Prioris HX6266 server comes with single- or dual-processor Pentium Pros that can be upgraded to single- or dual-processor Pentium IIs without a motherboard swap. Most Pentium-based systems...
03/01/98 UNIX Review  

The Holy Grail in beta.
Unix has long been perceived as difficult to learn and use, particularly compared to Windows. Many attempts have been made to create the perfect Unix user interface and the perfect user-interface...
03/01/98 UNIX Review  

Tracing BSD system calls.
Truss is one of the most useful tools available on some Unix systems. Truss, also known as trace or strace, monitors the system calls made by a program. Truss, unlike a debugger, does...
03/01/98 Dr. Dobb's Journal  

OEMS "TAKE STAKES" IN SCO TO SEAL 64-BIT UNIXWARE.
Ware OEM partnerships - and stop any further defections from the ranks to other Unix-on-Intel cults - Santa Cruz Operation Inc has reportedly secured minority investments from Compaq,...
02/16/98 Computergram International  

The Cathedral, the Bazaar and the Netscape factor.
Netscape Communications Corp has cast the dice. By releasing its browser source code to the world, it has made a wager unparalleled in the software industry. What, aside from obvious...
02/16/98 Computing Canada  

We have mail.
Ste 200, Lawrence, KS 66046-2700. Dear P.J. Plauger, I know you are busy but I wanted an opinion of someone whose views on C+ I respect. Two functions that behave similarly: void foo(int...
02/01/98 C/C++ Users Journal  

Is everybody from New Hampshire?
Bill Machrone You know New Hampshire-that place with the frosty winters and the flinty people and the license plates that say "Live Free or Die"? That's the spirit I'm seeing...
01/08/98 PC Week Online  

Is Everybody From New Hampshire?
You know New Hampshire-that place with the frosty winters and the flinty people and the license plates that say "Live Free or Die"? That's the spirit I'm seeing in response...
01/05/98 PC Week  

Ncipher, Rainbow, offer fast, on-the-fly encryption.
Running crypto software in your Web server is a good way to make the server slow. The natural question to ask is whether the encryption routines might be accelerated with special-purpose...
01/01/98 The Seybold Report on Internet Publishing  

InBox
Robert Richardson's contention that Visual Basic Script is "ready for a dignified burial" (see "The Ragtag HTML Primer," October '97). While it may be true that JavaScript...
12/01/97 Internet Computing  

Elctronic commerce software.
Site Server standard edition Internet/Web server software enables users to create and deploy Web sites for electronic commerce. The software works with the Internet Information Server...
11/01/97 Network VAR  

Taking another look at Mac options for Web servers.
Web servers and Macintosh hosting. Steve Jobs, meanwhile, is pushing Apple's main Web site to the Solaris platform and WebObjects, according to my correspondents. Apple's FTP servers...
10/20/97 MacWEEK  

Separating Crypto and State
The whole notion of controlling export of crypto is quite absurd ("Beware of Government Coming In Through Back Doors," Sept. 29). Strong crypto is available worldwide right...
10/20/97 PC Week  

Taking another look at Mac options for Web servers
Web servers and Macintosh hosting. Steve Jobs, meanwhile, is pushing Apple's main Web site to the Solaris platform and WebObjects, according to my correspondents. Apple's FTP servers...
10/20/97 MacWEEK  

Items 1 to 25 of 74 Next

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--------------C7A6AE2EA3A8BAAD765FE5EB-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 16:56:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05512 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:56:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Amnesiac.123.org (mcl@Amnesiac.mtl.pl [195.116.4.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05413 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:56:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mcl@Amnesiac.123.org) Received: from localhost (mcl@localhost) by Amnesiac.123.org (8.9.0/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id BAA04754; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:55:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:55:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Michal Listos To: Jack Velte cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: html email In-Reply-To: <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > this is one of the biggest problems with FreeBSD. html mail is THE standard > everywhere except MH doesn't grok it. is there progress in that direction? > does any free unix mail package do html mail well? Nope, it's THE netscape & microsoft thingy. Michal * God used fork() to create Eve. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 17:07:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08476 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08393 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id UAA26667; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:06:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Jack Velte cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: html email In-Reply-To: <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > everywhere except MH doesn't grok it. is there progress in that direction? > does any free unix mail package do html mail well? Just ANOTHER reason why HTML is bad. Bad bad bad bad. point and clicky bad. *shiver* I use pine sometimes, and i dont think it likes it much either :) Course I could just give in and start sending all my mail with netscape ;) And installing NT And dualbooting NT with Lin00x And ... But alas our hero will die first a horrible and slow painfull death before turning to the dark side of the source/GUI. Chris -- "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 17:17:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10238 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10125 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: (from hasty@localhost) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13462; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:17:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Amancio Hasty Message-Id: <199806120017.RAA13462@rah.star-gate.com> To: jackv@earthling.net Subject: Re: html email Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG exmh does not have any problem handling html. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 17:40:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14829 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub057.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA14720 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:40:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01589 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:43:49 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: Message-Id: Message-Id: X-Sender: right@m1.gdr.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:38:43 +1000 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: copyright Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG well I appreciate from a theoretical point of view that the bsd copyright may be more pure, but if the present copyright makes programmers uncomfortable donating code, then we should try to accomodate them. as far as i can see freeware is freeware, I like many who use freebsd really don't care about the copyright, we are primarily interested in getting a free feed. I think if you ask most freebsders if they understand the Berkeley copyright, they''ll probably be like me and say who cares! I have noticed that dogmatism, leads to irrelevance ... aka many unspecified religions, political groups, et al. The whole premise of free software that IT is not only for the rich ... Arguing about the mechanations of GPL and BSD copyrights tends to only benefit the rich and those that don't enter into the debate. Maybe we should advocate freebsd inc. becoming a registered charity just to maintain the legal and ideological purity. afterall, if freebsd is a development of the original BSD project, surely the copyright can be developed too. maybe advocacy is becoming an irrelevent part of the freebsd project. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 17:44:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15849 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub057.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15753 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:44:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01608 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:47:52 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199806120047.KAA01608@m1.gdr.net.au> X-Sender: freebsd@mail.pronet.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:49:05 +1000 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review In-Reply-To: <980611194751.ZM9019@darkstar.connect.com> References: <"Jordan K. Hubbard" <2506.897578483@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:47 PM 11/06/1998 +0000, you wrote: >Perhaps we need to keep reminding them of the fate of BYTE after they changed >their focus. It's a shame, but there are very few good mags left. > >Frank I don't think you may have noticed the billion of ezines around yet ... printed press has been in decline for a few years. only the profitable are still printing everyone else is making money via publishing on the net. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 17:47:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16513 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:47:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub057.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16447 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01626 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:50:24 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199806120050.KAA01626@m1.gdr.net.au> X-Sender: freebsd@mail.pronet.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:51:38 +1000 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review In-Reply-To: <980611191620.ZM8935@darkstar.connect.com> References: <"Jordan K. Hubbard" <1797.897570493@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG no, sorry guys, try ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/news ... you fought long and hard to get it ... may as well take advantage of it ! phil At 07:16 PM 11/06/1998 +0000, you wrote: >On Jun 11, 6:08am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review >> >
Its not much,
>> >
BUT they did print it !
>> >
>> >> YIKES! Please, for the sake of us old-timers, turn the HTML off. :( >> Needless to say, I'm not even going to make an attempt to read this - >> it's just too cluttered up with HTML tags. >> >> My MH doesn't like HTML and I'll use netscape to read my mail about >> the same time that hell freezes over. :) >> > >Ditto!! > >Frank > > >> - Jordan >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >>-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 18:04:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20404 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20343 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:03:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id SAA44064; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:03:25 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id SAA07706; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:53:10 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Jack Velte cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: html email In-Reply-To: <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Jack Velte wrote: >this is one of the biggest problems with FreeBSD. html mail is THE standard >everywhere except MH doesn't grok it. is there progress in that direction? >does any free unix mail package do html mail well? Yes. There is progress in that direction. Use Netscape's mail client. It does HTML. This is not a "big problem" with FreeBSD. I use pine for a very specific reason. I _despise_ the goofy formatting. People and there sick yellow text on white backgrounds (I like to be distinctive) should be shot. Is there an RFC for HTML email so that it can be called a standard? I was under the impression that it was a proprietary "enhancement" of commericial software companies. Also, just about every NG or list I have read includes some sort of comment that derides the use of HTML mail. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 18:17:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23985 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:17:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.mail.pipex.net (relay.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA23891 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@midrange.icl.co.uk) Received: (qmail 17194 invoked from network); 12 Jun 1998 01:17:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO midrange.icl.co.uk) (145.227.242.209) by relay.mail.pipex.net with SMTP; 12 Jun 1998 01:17:02 -0000 Received: (from jamie@localhost) by midrange.icl.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10851; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:18:23 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:18:23 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <199806120118.CAA10851@midrange.icl.co.uk> To: jackv@earthling.net Subject: Re: html email Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > this is one of the biggest problems with FreeBSD. html mail is THE standard Sorry, I beg to differ. HTML is not appropriate for email, or news postings. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 19:00:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02425 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:00:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (/X5IF2C+hgwaE1FZdyQGDkUWhDHIwSTb@tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02381 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id VAA13958; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:00:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA00932; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:50:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:50:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Jack Velte cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: html email In-Reply-To: <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Jack Velte wrote: >>>
Its not much,
>>>
BUT they did print it !
>>>
>> >>YIKES! Please, for the sake of us old-timers, turn the HTML off. :( > >this is one of the biggest problems with FreeBSD. html mail is THE standard >everywhere except MH doesn't grok it. is there progress in that direction? >does any free unix mail package do html mail well? Excuse me?? If html is a mail standard anywhere, I haven't noticed it. Internet standards for mail are well defined and don't include a mention of html. Besides, there are many of us who would rather read substance in ascii than be dazzled by formatting. My personal view is that, aside from obscuring communication, tags or markup of any kind bloat the message beyond it's worth and wastes my band width. If your thoughts don't stand on their own in ascii, tags won't help. If they do, tags are unnecessary and wasted effort. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 23:39:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13479 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:39:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13429 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16935; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:38:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35821ED5.11F91080@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:40:21 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Behlendorf CC: phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Complimentary article on FreeBSD References: <3.0.3.32.19980611131143.0082fdf0@hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Behlendorf wrote: > > At 03:32 PM 6/11/98 +1000, phil grainger wrote: > >maybe someone in the freebsd organisation should put a submittion to apple > >to commit some resources ???? > > Though the responses to this have been good, the one thing it looked like > people didn't mention was this: it's in Apple's technological interests to > contribute back to the project. I'm sure if they don't see that now > they'll see it eventually. Heck, they may already have contributors doing > work under non-apple.com addresses. You think somebody might even dust off the old PowerPC port? Kick the tires, give a run on a shiny new G3? Now, that'd be a kicking little beast. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 23:45:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15217 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15119 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:45:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16943; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:44:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35822042.4B4EE59D@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:46:26 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: phil grainger CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copyright References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG phil grainger wrote: > but if the present copyright makes programmers uncomfortable donating code, > then we should try to accomodate them. I don't know why the BSD copyright would make anyone uncomfortable donating code to the FreeBSD project. Nothing says you have to use the BSD copyright, or any copyright for that matter. The core team may decide not to use it if the copyright is too restrictive, and in the past have decided not to use pieces of code that are GPL'd. That certainly does not in any way lessen the copyright protections emplaced by the author. Most (any, all) FreeBSD contributors use BSD-like copyrights because they believe that is the right way to do it. If you don't, you're still quite free to incorporate FreeBSD into your projects, we aren't coercing you into releasing your source, object, binary, or any other code in any way you are uncomfortable with. On the other hand, science has not yet invented an instrument that can measure how little the FreeBSD community is willing to change their licensing scheme towards any more protective mode. The license requires the user of the code to acknowlege where it came from, in both the documentation and the code itself. For this community, that is more than sufficient, it is desirable. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 11 23:47:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15749 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:47:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15683 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:47:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05891; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:47:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Jack Velte" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: html email In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:38:50 PDT." <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:47:04 -0700 Message-ID: <5886.897634024@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > this is one of the biggest problems with FreeBSD. html mail is THE standard It's not a problem with FreeBSD at all, let alone one of its "biggest" problems - that statement only displays a fundamental ignorance as to how services are layered. It's possible to install any one of several HTML-capable mail readers for FreeBSD right now today out of the ports collection, Netscape being only one of the many possibilities. However, I also have no desire to switch mail readers since MH has been something I've used happily since 1984 or thereabouts and I see no reason to switch. I'd also need a lot more evidence than I've seen to date that HTML-ified mail represents any sort of forward progress. To me, it represents nothing more than a bunch of guys with a big HTML hammer wandering around thinking about how everything now looks like a nail. There's a time and place for anything, and I think HTML works just fine as a WWW interchange format, but leave it there and don't attempt to HTML-ify everything just because you can. For mail, ASCII is *just fine* and MIME attachments provide any of the multimedia extentions one might want, MIME having been around for a heck of a lot longer than HTML. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 00:00:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18417 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18395 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16973; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:00:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <358223CE.D366C172@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:01:34 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: phil grainger CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I don't even read unix review ... References: <199806111630.CAA00376@m1.gdr.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG phil grainger wrote: > > but I can't blaim them if there advertisers are saying go with NT > stories/product reviews. > the commercial unix market is pretty tightly controlled. > after all, where would advocating freebsd get them ? > a lot of p$%^&-off advertisers ... > does WC even advertise in it ? > phil The decisions aren't as simple as that. There are already a handful of NT rags, and very few remaining UNIX zines. The argument lies more along the lines of "We can stay with the UNIX crowd, and get declining ad revenues, or we can jump in with the NT crowd and try not to disappear in the noise." Every other magazine that has tried this approach in the past 3 years has died much more quickly and mercifully than they really deserved, starting with the "UNIX Today" -> "Open Systems Today" toilet paper weekly. They were so far off base they changed their name for "Open VMS", for all the good it did either them OR the Vomit Making System. So, the choices are: Remain the premier UNIX monthly journal, keep the editorial standards high (compared to the rest of the morons in this industry), and do our best to keep the ad revenues inline with the readership, or Spend 6 months or less getting completely ignored because now we're competing with the likes of the Ziff-Davis juggernaut, the publishing arm of the Evil Wintel Hegemony (sorry, Brett, but it's true!), and then disappear forever into the winter of our own ignorance and greed. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 00:06:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19308 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:06:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19276 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA05943; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com Subject: Re: Fast Search reveals articles about FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:51:48 MDT." <35806D94.73FCB3DF@xylan.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:00:41 -0700 Message-ID: <5939.897634841@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Here, try it yourself: > > http://cma.zdnet.com/texis/cma/cma/~OJYeNHzS/edit.html?feditsrch=FreeBSD&name =Go%21 Yeah, pity each and every entry says "You're not subscribed! Please give me all your credit card information for your free subscription and we promise not to start charging things on it right away, OK?" Bah. :-) So much for that on-line magazine. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 00:37:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25815 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA25749; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-231.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.231]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id AAA01003; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:37:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Cc: Subject: Re: A contest about to start... Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:24:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd95d3$2dad1d80$e701aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >What the contest principally lacks at the moment, unfortunately, are >judges. if there was easy voting software, judging would become laborless, eh? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 00:47:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27656 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA27611 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:46:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id AAA50542; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:46:49 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id AAA03963; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:36:29 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: phil grainger cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copyright In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, phil grainger wrote: FreeBSD will not become a charity. I am pretty sure that I speak for all when I say this. I know that Mr. Hubbard has said this before. Invoking the term "dogma" leads to the irrelevance of ones position. When one says, "That is purely dogmatic" then the discussion approaches irrelevance. Dogmatism only leads to irrelevance when you subscibe to opposing dogma. Dogmatism can otherwise be considered "the short and sweet" parts of a long drawn out evolution of a concept that a person who is a "suscriber" to a particular dogma can present to someone whose position is somewhere in the middle. There are certain dogmatic statements we here in this community may make to one another in the interest of brevity. "Free software is the best software," is an example of a dogmatic statement that most of "us" can agree with. For me it is an a priori premise. M$ would might claim we were being dogmatic. Poof... there goes any meaningful conversation between M$ and FreeBSD. >maybe advocacy is becoming an irrelevent part of the freebsd project. If this is the point of that exercise in non-readability then allow me to reply. FreeBSD-advocacy is in it's infancy. Advocacy hasn't really even formed yet. Currently, it is merely a mailing list. Now let me make my point in rebuttal. Don't lay your negative trip on me. I _believe_ in FreeBSD as a product and as a community. Advocacy will become relevant through the efforts of it's members. This will occur when people provide solutions to criticisms instead of just the criticisms. We have seen one activity spawn itself. Users are reporting articles around the net. No one told the users to do this. They are just doing it. This will become useful in time. Watch our birth and growth a little while before your proclaim our death. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 00:59:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00482 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:59:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00423 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08253; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:59:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: phil grainger cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copyright In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:38:43 +1000." Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:59:19 -0700 Message-ID: <8249.897638359@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > well I appreciate from a theoretical point of view that the bsd copyright > may be more pure, If that's all you've taken from this conversation then you've seriously missed the point. > but if the present copyright makes programmers uncomfortable donating code, It doesn't, at least not according to any of the actual programmers I've talked to. This debate seems more to be the province of non-programmers who wouldn't know how to program their way out of a paper bag, jumping on the ideological bandwagon because it's the only way they know how to participate. Those who can't code argue licenses with those who do, or something like that. > I think if you ask most freebsders if they understand the Berkeley > copyright, they''ll probably be like me and say who cares! Same goes for the GPL. If you're not interested in licenses then you're not interested in licenses, what's your point? > maybe advocacy is becoming an irrelevent part of the freebsd project. No, I just think your particular brand of it is irrelevant. Genuine advocacy, which doesn't trouble itself with license issues or anything which isn't immediately germin to what the product actually DOES, is still alive and well here in FreeBSD and definitely represents the direction we need to be going in. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 01:27:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06474 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06323 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:26:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-231.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.231]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id BAA08087; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:26:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: , "phil grainger" Subject: autoupdate binaries transparently Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:15:21 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd95da$3e766e80$e701aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >try ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/news ... >you fought long and hard to get it ... may as well take advantage of it ! how impossible would it be to auto-update a user's binary installations over the net? that would be a nice feature. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 01:27:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06473 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:27:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06322; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:26:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-231.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.231]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id BAA08081; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:26:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: , "phil grainger" Cc: Subject: Re: copyright Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:13:24 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd95d9$f8a13c00$e701aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----Original Message----- From: phil grainger >well I appreciate from a theoretical point of view that the bsd copyright >may be more pure, >Maybe we should advocate freebsd inc. becoming a registered charity just to >maintain the legal and ideological purity. jordan, is freebsd, inc a non-profit organization? you'll need to hire an extra secretary for that paperwork, though. maybe? then at some point sales would become contributions. two bar codes on a product, with two prices? computer issue charitable contribution irs forms twice in the spring. this would an interesting shareware experiment. or even more prices on the box the store can sell - the year contract. i don't think a non-profit organization can issue stock, though, and it really has zero to do with the copyright on the code. -jack >maybe advocacy is becoming an irrelevent part of the freebsd project. no, not at all. i think it needs to be a little better organized. like, some web page project boards. +voting boards tied to project boards. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 01:42:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA09711 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:42:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09588 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08436; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: phil grainger cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:51:38 +1000." <199806120050.KAA01626@m1.gdr.net.au> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:40:54 -0700 Message-ID: <8432.897640854@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > no, > sorry guys, No, sorry Phil. If you don't want to make your email readable then I'll simply exercise my right to delete it without reading it. This is not something you can force down anyone's throat, at least not if you have any desire to have your postings read. The most common denominator for mail is still ASCII and if you want to employ your skills at producing HTML more constructively, put up a web page or something. - Jordan > try ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/news ... > you fought long and hard to get it ... may as well take advantage of it ! > phil > At 07:16 PM 11/06/1998 +0000, you wrote: > >On Jun 11, 6:08am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Subject: Re: In (some sort of) defense of Unix-Review > >> >
Its not much,
> >> >
BUT they did print it !
> >> >
> >> > >> YIKES! Please, for the sake of us old-timers, turn the HTML off. :( > >> Needless to say, I'm not even going to make an attempt to read this - > >> it's just too cluttered up with HTML tags. > >> > >> My MH doesn't like HTML and I'll use netscape to read my mail about > >> the same time that hell freezes over. :) > >> > > > >Ditto!! > > > >Frank > > > > > >> - Jordan > >> > >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > >>-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 03:28:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA06338 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA06251 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12111; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:28:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters cc: phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I don't even read unix review ... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:01:34 MDT." <358223CE.D366C172@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:28:18 -0700 Message-ID: <12107.897647298@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The decisions aren't as simple as that. There are already a handful of > NT rags, and very few remaining UNIX zines. The argument lies more Actually, just a slight correction to this: "There are already a handful of NT rags, and very few remaining UNIX zines, IN THE UNITED STATES." In Japan, just to cite a counter-example, there are at least 5 major magazines which focus on Unix, at least 3 of them focusing on Unix exclusively and doing an excellent job of it. Furthermore, the very WORST of these Unix magazines look probably 50 times BETTER than any Unix magazine here in the U.S. ever has, even during its heyday. They have full glossy advertisements for Unix products, articles on doing this or that with Unix, regular columns by Unix professionals and essentially look no different than the very best WinTel dedicated magazines here in the U.S. And what's more, at least just judging by the rather generous donations FreeBSD, Inc. has received from some of them, they're quite successful at it. The bottom line is that this really isn't a global problem, it's a U.S. problem. The magazines here have chosen, for whatever reason, to be a bunch of sheep and line up behind the old "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" mindset, also caving in and running away at the first sign that the Unix market might not be expanding as explosively as the NT one. It's screwed up and it sucks and just a bit more of this and I'll be enrolling in a Japanese language course at the local university extention so I can move to Japan and just say adios to this often criminally clueless country. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 03:39:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA08996 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:39:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08847 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18707; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:36:44 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35810500.7A24AAD9@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:37:52 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Velte CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: html email References: <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jack Velte wrote: > > this is one of the biggest problems with FreeBSD. html mail is THE standard > everywhere except MH doesn't grok it. except I just got one sent from outlook express that even Netscape on win95 won't grok... > does any free unix mail package do html mail well? mutt can pipe them through lynx so you get text output. I consider this as handling them better than netscape does :-) alternatively you can get it to open netscape and display them in the browser. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 04:18:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA17451 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:18:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA17217 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:17:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-231.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.231]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id EAA00167; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:17:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Subject: Re: copyright Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:11:28 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd95f2$d8ebd3c0$e701aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG copyright 1998 loribeth merril. removal of notice prohibited. $10k if of use. revision prohibited. trademarks implied. resistance is futile. >Genuine >advocacy, which doesn't trouble itself with license issues or anything >which isn't immediately germin to what the product actually DOES, is >still alive and well here in FreeBSD and definitely represents the >direction we need to be going in. * some box makers to ship a freebsd version. i sure know i would spec that one Any time over some jury rigged thing. it would be a dream. i would value it at $1000. my one other sample said $200 on a $4000 system, easy. then get magazines to review the box, with a standard application suite. i always thought PC mag was relatively honest, except when they weren't. so there hasn't been any kind of really easy or useful freebsd because it didn't have the business applications. we need a deal on the Corel office suite. how many people use the linux version? anyone? * 100% functioning Corel office suite. * html page for project management. simple window into editable buffer, but not deletable? some columns like department pr, sales, marketing, all the os parts. maybe people won't invest the same work duplicating each other's work. some time columns. * a html page for voting. projects could be rated on lots of parameters for the developers to get feedback about what they're working on. these should also be user supplied questions, then a moving 3d chart of the votes over time. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 04:28:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA18988 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA18851 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12599; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Jack Velte" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copyright In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:11:28 PDT." <01bd95f2$d8ebd3c0$e701aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:27:35 -0700 Message-ID: <12595.897650855@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > copyright 1998 loribeth merril. removal of notice prohibited. $10k if of > use. revision prohibited. trademarks implied. resistance is futile. Gosh, now it's Loribeth Merril on the copyright. Whatever happened to Sandy King? She was just your woman of the moment and you've since moved on to another ex-Walnut Creek CDROM employee or what, exactly? :) Geeze, I think that makes it.. 3? 4? Man, you've bedded more of this company's ex-employees that Doug Michaels managed to do at SCO, and he was a legend in his own time (well, OK, he got fired and sued over it anyway). :-) You really missed your calling, Jack - rather than trying to sell FreeBSD, why aren't you on the home shopping network plugging a book on "How to woo women in the workplace?" It's even kinda catchy in an alliterative sorta way - you'd sell thousands of copies. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 05:34:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29678 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 05:34:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29549 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 05:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22308; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:30:20 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35811F9E.EC828975@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:31:26 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: phil grainger CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copyright References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG phil grainger wrote: > > but if the present copyright makes programmers uncomfortable donating code, > then we should try to accomodate them. they are catered for, in /usr/src/gnu and in the ports collection. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 07:56:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25182 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25126 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:56:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost (stuart@localhost) by junior.apk.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA05000; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:55:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copyright In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >maybe advocacy is becoming an irrelevent part of the freebsd project. > > If this is the point of that exercise in non-readability then allow me to > reply. > > FreeBSD-advocacy is in it's infancy. Advocacy hasn't really even formed > yet. Currently, it is merely a mailing list. I believe that advocacy consists of things like: "I use this ______ (fill in blank) and am very happy with it." "You really should take a look at _____. I think it might be just the thing to accomplish _______." "No, _____ *does* have that capability. You were misinformed.* "You can get further info on ______ at _____. And there is an excellent beginner's tutorial at ______. ______ is a very good book on _______." "I have been using ______ for a long time and would be happy to help you with this. I'm always glad to see someone else become interested in ______." ____________________________________________________ Most of the other things I see that are supposed to be "advocacy" are just poorly disguised name-calling. -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 09:42:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17733 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17599 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wpeters@xylan.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.1 [OUT])) id JAA17007; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA20930; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:39:53 -0700 Received: from xylan.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id KAA24417; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:39:53 -0600 Message-ID: <35815A1C.D382C93B@xylan.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:41:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Xylan Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fast Search reveals articles about FreeBSD References: <5939.897634841@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Here, try it yourself: > > > > http://cma.zdnet.com/texis/cma/cma/~OJYeNHzS/edit.html?feditsrch=FreeBSD&name > =Go%21 > > Yeah, pity each and every entry says "You're not subscribed! Please give > me all your credit card information for your free subscription and we > promise not to start charging things on it right away, OK?" > > Bah. :-) So much for that on-line magazine. Yeah, I was so excited to see the list I sent the message to -advocacy before I clicked on any of the links. What a crock. As if they couldn't make enough by throwing banner ads in your face. It does, at least, give us an idea of the coverage we're getting. This list had a lot of duplicates, so their search engine isn't particularly good, but we're getting coverage in places I'd never imagined, like MacWorld. With a little effort from -advocacy, maybe we can double or triple this. By the way, whenever you're reading your favorite e-zine, click on a couple of ads just to keep the juices flowing. That way, your e-zines will stick around. Most companies can't track sales related to adds, just raw clicks from ads. ;^) -- Wes Peters Who's going to save you Principal Engineer When you're a slave to Xylan Corporation A diamond as big as the Ritz wpeters@xylan.com -- Jimmy Buffett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 10:48:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29859 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from buford.the-link.net (proxy.zebra.net [209.136.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29644; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from saten@shell.zebra.net) Received: from shell.zebra.net (shell.zebra.net [209.12.240.129]) by buford.the-link.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01170; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:49:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from saten@shell.zebra.net) Received: from shell.zebra.net (saten@shell.zebra.net [209.12.240.129]) by shell.zebra.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA09314; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:47:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:47:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Jack Velte cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, webmaster@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A contest about to start... In-Reply-To: <01bd95d3$2dad1d80$e701aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >What the contest principally lacks at the moment, unfortunately, are > >judges. > > if there was easy voting software, judging would become laborless, eh? > I believe everyone should take part in this contest. Do it for any reason at all. I don't care, just enter :) It is projects like this that are attempting to expand the userbase of FreeBSD, and gain more of a desktop look for our OS. We have been working on this project for some time now, it will have flaws, but the overall will be fine. -- Phillip Salzman http:/gulf.net/~eclipse/ FreeBSD X11 Desktop Theme Contest, Coordinator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 12:01:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16433 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15941 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28716; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:59:25 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:03:07 -0400 To: Stuart Krivis , "Jason C. Wells" From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: copyright Cc: phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:55 AM -0400 6/12/98, Stuart Krivis wrote: >On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >> FreeBSD-advocacy is in it's infancy. Advocacy hasn't really even >> formed yet. Currently, it is merely a mailing list. > > I believe that advocacy consists of things like: > > "I use this ______ (fill in blank) and am very happy with it." I still think this mailing list suffers from the name that was given to it. In usenet heirarchies, the "advocacy" newsgroup is where to send all the endless philosophical discussions, or name-calling, or platform-religion topics that no sane person wants in the "real" usenet discussions. It is, by definition, a garbage-collection of topics. Here, the advocacy mailing list is meant to be a serious list with a real purpose: figuring out how to make FreeBSD more acceptable to more people, and how to connect with people who would be well-served by running FreeBSD (if they only knew more about it to try it out). So, I think this is a bad name for a serious mailing list, but even after a few weeks of thinking about an alternate name I haven't thought of anything which would be notably better... --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 12:05:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17556 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:05:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17233 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:04:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA59566; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:04:08 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bd95da$3e766e80$e701aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:07:50 -0400 To: "Jack Velte" , , "phil grainger" From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: autoupdate binaries transparently Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:15 AM -0700 6/12/98, Jack Velte wrote: >> try ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/news ... >> you fought long and hard to get it ... >> may as well take advantage of it ! > > how impossible would it be to auto-update a user's binary > installations over the net? that would be a nice feature. It's also a little scary. Microsoft is starting to do that now, and I can't help thinking "but what if I don't *want* the version that you want me to be running?". Or "Sure, *you* think the new version is a bug-fix, but installing it will break some other program for me, and I don't need your damn bug fix right now, thank you very much!". I understand that might be a pretty useful service, but if done it needs to be thought out carefully... --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 14:11:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14837 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:11:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14433; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-207-214-220-157.snfc21.pacbell.net [207.214.220.157]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id OAA11333; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:09:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" Cc: , Subject: Re: A contest about to start... Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:56:10 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9644$87217020$e701aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> >What the contest principally lacks at the moment, unfortunately, are >> >judges. >> >> if there was easy voting software, judging would become laborless, eh? >> > > I believe everyone should take part in this contest. Do it > for any reason at all. I don't care, just enter :) the problem is with lots of judges, without software, calculating and sorting the responses has order n squared complexity. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 15:09:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26975 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:09:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26909 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA26486 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:08:36 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id PAA16966 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:58:16 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: autoupdate binaries transparently In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> how impossible would it be to auto-update a user's binary >> installations over the net? that would be a nice feature. Not impossible at all. In fact, it is might already be installed on your system. CVSUP and cron can do this just fine. I seem to recall something about "the unix way". Unix contains lots of tools that are very good at one small task. Put them all together and you get incredible flexibility and power. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 17:12:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21051 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20958 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:11:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09836; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980612201155.20908@cheddar.netmonger.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:11:56 -0400 From: Ted Stein To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Farewell Reply-To: ted@taki.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cheddar.netmonger.net 2.2.6-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, it's time for me to ship off to Brandeis University for the summer to study some distributed computing.. I can't afford to be mauled with e-mail while I'm away, so it's time to unsubscribe for the summer. It's been a pleasure working with all of you, and I hope throughout the month of July you continue with your hard work. I look forward to having more time for advocacy in August. :-) -- Ted Stein ted@taki.net CGI/Backend taki solutions, inc. http://www.taki.net PGP available upon request To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 20:18:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16691 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from postal.c-zone.net (postal.c-zone.net [207.211.22.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16685 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:18:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sandyk@c-zone.net) Received: from default (stk-ca1-35.dial.c-zone.net [209.155.77.44]) by postal.c-zone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12496; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sandyk@c-zone.net) Message-ID: <003c01bd9679$db86dda0$594d9bd1@default> From: "Sandy King" To: Cc: "IGUESSSO" , "Jack Velte" Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:16:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01BD963F.0256F040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BD963F.0256F040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey J, long time no blah blah blah blah blah: Just wanted to make something clear you shithead, I don't appreciate you = using my name in the sort of context you did in your mail to Jack Re: = Copyright. I know it has been awhile, but I think you know me better = than the light you portrayed me in. Don't do it again. -s ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BD963F.0256F040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey J, long time no = blah blah=20 blah blah blah:
 
Just wanted to make = something=20 clear you shithead, I don't appreciate you using my name in the sort of = context=20 you did in your mail to Jack Re: Copyright.  I know it has been = awhile, but=20 I think you know me better than the light you portrayed me in.  = Don't do it=20 again.
 
-s
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BD963F.0256F040-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 20:36:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18771 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18694 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:36:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA49090; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:36:14 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA22209; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:25:57 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Sandy King cc: IGUESSSO , Jack Velte Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <003c01bd9679$db86dda0$594d9bd1@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Sandy King wrote: >Hey J, long time no blah blah blah blah blah: > >Just wanted to make something clear you shithead, I don't appreciate you using my name in the sort of context you did in your mail to Jack Re: Copyright. I know it has been awhile, but I think you know me better than the light you portrayed me in. Don't do it again. This seems to me to be a private matter. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 21:23:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24456 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24443 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:23:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost (stuart@localhost) by junior.apk.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA07502; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:23:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: Garance A Drosihn cc: "Jason C. Wells" , phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copyright In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > I still think this mailing list suffers from the name that was > given to it. In usenet heirarchies, the "advocacy" newsgroup > is where to send all the endless philosophical discussions, or > name-calling, or platform-religion topics that no sane person > wants in the "real" usenet discussions. It is, by definition, > a garbage-collection of topics. There are, very rarely, some good threads in the .advocacy groups. Very rarely. :-) > So, I think this is a bad name for a serious mailing list, but > even after a few weeks of thinking about an alternate name I > haven't thought of anything which would be notably better... FreeBSD boosters is closer to what you mean, given that advocacy has a bad connotation these days. ClubFreeBSD? freebsd-boosters? -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 21:33:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25500 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25490 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18333; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:32:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <358200EC.9EDAB78A@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:32:44 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn CC: Stuart Krivis , "Jason C. Wells" , phil grainger , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copyright References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > I still think this mailing list suffers from the name that was > given to it. In usenet heirarchies, the "advocacy" newsgroup > is where to send all the endless philosophical discussions, or > name-calling, or platform-religion topics that no sane person > wants in the "real" usenet discussions. It is, by definition, > a garbage-collection of topics. > > Here, the advocacy mailing list is meant to be a serious list > with a real purpose: figuring out how to make FreeBSD more > acceptable to more people, and how to connect with people who > would be well-served by running FreeBSD (if they only knew > more about it to try it out). > > So, I think this is a bad name for a serious mailing list, but > even after a few weeks of thinking about an alternate name I > haven't thought of anything which would be notably better... You're exactly right, the charter of this mailing lists is more in line with the "technical evangelists" at Apple in the past. I hope we're somewhat less rabid (and more reasoned) than the Kawasaki Corps, though. I hesitate to call this an "evangelism" project, because it tends to offend "churchy" people, and those offended by churchs. Silly, but true. A quick trip through an on-line thesarus turned up nothing of real help. "FreeBSD Missionaries" conjures up visions of a large stew pot with Jack Velte hot-tubbing his way to millions; not exactly the light *I* want to protray us in. ;^) "FreeBSD Advocates" sounds a little too much like a software licensing law firm. Sigh. Perhaps we should adopt a Klingon word or something? An obscure latin phrase? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 12 21:56:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28636 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:56:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28604 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:56:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id QAA01202; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:26:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980612162618.34967@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:26:18 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Stuart Henderson , Jack Velte Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: html email References: <01bd9589$b487d1a0$1001aace@eliot.pacbell.net> <35810500.7A24AAD9@internationalschool.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <35810500.7A24AAD9@internationalschool.co.uk>; from Stuart Henderson on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 11:37:52AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 June 1998 at 11:37:52 +0100, Stuart Henderson wrote: > Jack Velte wrote: >> >> this is one of the biggest problems with FreeBSD. html mail is THE standard >> everywhere except MH doesn't grok it. I don't know where to start to counter this stupid claim, so I'll start here, since it's the last in my queue. > except I just got one sent from outlook express that even Netscape on > win95 won't grok... That's one problem. Use a Microsoft "standard" and you're opening yourself for this kind of problem. >> does any free unix mail package do html mail well? > > mutt can pipe them through lynx so you get text output. I consider this > as handling them better than netscape does :-) alternatively you can get > it to open netscape and display them in the browser. Mutt will also start Netscrape for you to handle people who insist in sending mail in this format. I don't have any trouble reading HTML messages, they just annoy me because they're invariably badly composed. HTML was a quick-and-dirty language for formatting things that people didn't want to format themselves. It's a real pain even for web pages, but we're stuck with it. If you try to use it for mail, you invariably end up with a worse looking document than if you write ASCII, since you can't possibly know what it's going to look like on the receiver's screen (unless you use 
, in which case I wonder
why you'd go to the trouble).

If you *really* want "formatted" text, use pdf or PostScript.  HTML is
the worst of all worlds.



For further information (in a slightly friendlier tone), check out
http://www.lemis.com/email.html.  Yes, it *is* in HTML, and it was a
pain to format.  I'm sure some of you will find problems with the
format, simply because I can't guess how you display it.

Greg
--
Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Jun 12 23:16:10 1998
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:15:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Phillip Salzman 
To: Jack Velte 
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, webmaster@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: A contest about to start...
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> the problem is with lots of judges, without software, calculating and
> sorting the responses has order n squared complexity.
> 
> -jack

	Only 5 judges will exist.  This will be very complex, and we
are looking into several tracking systems; at least I am.  

	The 'basic' way to do it would be to create a forwarding file with
all various judges email address for this - and have the formmail program
+ the forward file broadcast the email.  This is a real cruddy way to
solve our problem, but it may be the only.

--
Phillip Salzman 
	FINALLY! i'm getting a new(er) car!


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Jun 13 00:07:42 1998
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From: "Jack Velte" 
To: "Sandy King" 
Cc: "IGUESSSO" 
Subject: Re: your mail
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:57:59 -0700
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>On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Sandy King wrote:
>
>>Hey J, long time no blah blah blah blah blah:
>>
>>Just wanted to make something clear you shithead, I don't
>>appreciate you using my name in the sort of context you did
>>in your mail to Jack Re: Copyright.  I know it has been
>>awhile, but I think you know me better than the light you
>>portrayed me in.  Don't do it again.
>
>This seems to me to be a private matter.
>
ok, it's my fault because i didn't ask sandy about putting documents in her
name and it doesn't seem to be ok with her.  forgive my bad.  sandy didn't
also think what jordan wrote was as funny as i thought it was.

i don't know if sandy realized she was sending to the list, but probably.
so please forgive me for this interuption.

regards,

-jack



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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Jun 13 10:44:34 1998
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:45:24 -0700
From: Don Wilde 
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CC: Garance A Drosihn , Stuart Krivis ,
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When I requested this mailing list, my working name for it was
'freebsd-plug', but I guess that wasn't considered stuffy enough.

--> Don

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Jun 13 12:09:00 1998
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:08:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Phillip Salzman 
To: Joey Garcia 
cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: A contest about to start...
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> You guys are having a contest based on votes made on the web for a X
> Windows Theme for FreeBSD or a Window Manager for FreeBSD?  Theme being
> just the pictures and icons and crap like that, or you're trying to find a
> common Window Manager for the FreeBSD Project?

	Not exactly.  This is not for a default windowmanager for FreeBSD,
this is to get people thinking about a multimedia image for FreeBSD.  We
are doing it via a theme contest.  

	It will not be just `pictures, icons, and crap'.  It will have to
be a configuration that allows the root user to do system management a lot
easier, on a freshly installed box; or on a box that has been up a while.


> For right now my vote is on KDE.  Although, I've tried to install
> WindowMaker from the source but I can't get the icons to appear.  When I
> have some time I'll figure it out. 

	We thought about having the general public vote on this via the
web, but decided it was not a good idea.  If the public voted on
something, no one is to say they have tried all the entrys.  Once again,
this is not for a WindowManager, it is for the configuration+helper apps
of a windowmanager.

	KDE is one of the WM's that are allowed, many others are too.

> Anyways, where can I do this voting and/or get more information about
> this?

	More information is coming soon, hopefully by tommorow our webpage
will be ready for primetime.  As I plan to have all the legal info, etc
up. 
 

--
Phillip Salzman
FreeBSD X11 Desktop Contest Coordinator


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Jun 13 14:09:35 1998
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  <358200EC.9EDAB78A@softweyr.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:13:08 -0400
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At 10:45 AM -0700 6/13/98, Don Wilde wrote:
> When I requested this mailing list, my working name for it was
> 'freebsd-plug',

"plug" sounds wrong too...

Perhaps freebsd-promotion?

>  but I guess that wasn't considered stuffy enough.

The thing is, freebsd-advocacy would be just about perfect, if
it wasn't for the way "advocacy" is used in the naming of usenet
newsgroups.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn           =   gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer          or  drosih@rpi.edu
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Jun 13 20:29:40 1998
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[cc's trimmed]

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Wes Peters wrote:


> You're exactly right, the charter of this mailing lists is more in
> line with the "technical evangelists" at Apple in the past.  I
> hope we're somewhat less rabid (and more reasoned) than the Kawasaki 
> Corps, though.

I concur.

> A quick trip through an on-line thesarus turned up nothing of real help.  
> "FreeBSD Missionaries" conjures up visions of a large stew pot with Jack 
> Velte hot-tubbing his way to millions; not exactly the light *I* want
> to protray us in.  ;^)  "FreeBSD Advocates" sounds a little too much
> like a software licensing law firm.  Sigh.  Perhaps we should adopt
> a Klingon word or something?  An obscure latin phrase?

Hmm... 1/2 kidding on all of these, but advocacy has rather wrong
connotations:

1.  FreeBSD Publicity
2.  FreeBSD Marketing
3.  FreeBSD Promotion
4.  FreeBSD Strategic Market Initiatives

For those of you not subscribed to -newbies, someone just asked "what do
you guys do with FreeBSD?" and it's generated some very nice testimonials.
If we were to post those on a web page...

Another very positive mention of FreeBSD on InfoWorld Electric.  Nicholas
Petreley says nice things about FreeBSD, particularly WC's documentation
for the set:

	http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?59820

bryan k ogawa     http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/



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