Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 10:42:08 -0500 From: Tony Wells <awells@journalstar.com> Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: RE: CST31451665ID - [Fwd: Re: HotmailMigration]] Message-ID: <3AF02AD0.EF30D2A1@journalstar.com> References: <3AF0077C.4F4806A7@wmptl.com>
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Now you've done it. Now they're going to migrate back to FreeBSD. :-) Nathan Vidican wrote: > > Woo-who! got a reply, no answers... but at least they replied, for those > of you who were interested here's what M$ responded with thus far: > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: CST31451665ID - [Fwd: Re: HotmailMigration] > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:23:31 -0700 > From: technet@microsoft.com > To: <webmaster@wmptl.com> > > Hello Nathan, > > Thank you for contacting Technet. > > We have forwarded your mail to the appropriate Microsoft group for > review and response. Your comments are very important to us. By taking > the time to write, you are helping us provide the best possible products > and services. Thanks again! > > Sincerely, > Fara > Technet Answer Team > http://www.microsoft.com/technet > > --- Original Message --- > From: webmaster@wmptl.com > To: technet@microsoft.com > Sent: Mon Apr 30 05:24:21 PDT 2001 > Subject: [Fwd: Re: HotmailMigration] > > I had written an email to this address sometime last week(see below). I > have not (yet) received a reply from this address, though many others > from the FreeBSD community have replied to my questions; Microsoft still > chooses to ignore me. Attached to this message, is a forward of one of > the replies I've received to my origional email. While they are not my > thoughts directly, and I cannot take responsibility for them; I would > like to help share them with the world. I am still awaiting a reply from > Microsoft, and doubvious of it's arrival, I will let you all know if it > ever arrives. > > Nathan Vidican > nathan@vidican.com > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: HotmailMigration > Date: 25 Apr 2001 23:15:53 EST > From: "Mark Sergeant" <msergeant@snsonline.net> > Reply-To: "Mark Sergeant" <msergeant@snsonline.net> > To: "tony" <tony@tntpro.com>, <nathan@vidican.com> > CC: <questions@FreeBSD.ORG> > References: > <3AE6F95A.4D51D58D@wmptl.com><008901c0cda9$09d07f40$0a00a8c0@tntpro.com> > > You also neglected to mention that they had to increase the number of > machines > from 3500ish to 5000+ just one other "minor" cost ;) > > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:59:00 -0400, tony said: > > :: Just wanted to congratulate you on a well said email, and ask, "did > they > :: actually answer you?" > :: ----- Original Message ----- > :: From: "Nathan Vidican" <webmaster@wmptl.com> > :: To: <technet@microsoft.com> > :: Cc: <questions@FreeBSD.ORG> > :: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 12:20 PM > :: Subject: HotmailMigration > :: > :: > :: > I've got a few questions which were not answered in your article. > I > :: > will tell you a little about my business, and what I am currently > :: > working with. I cannot justify moving from my open-sourced system > to > :: > Windows 2000, and am curious as to why you would choose HotMail as > a > :: > prime example? I do not know of too many companies which could > afford > :: > (primarily speaking about financially) the migration of 5000+ > servers > :: > from an open-source (cost-free licensed) to Windows 2000. I cannot > even > :: > begin to fathom what such a cost would be, based upon my > experiences > :: > with Microsoft and it's software licensing charges. I am > attempting not > :: > too be biased with this email, as I am dead serious, and would > truly > :: > appreciate an honest reply. > :: > I am currently involved in the startup phase of a new devision to > an > :: > existing company. My network is a relatively small network with a > :: > cluster of about 30 servers (and growing), running web, database, > and > :: > email services. On all of the intel-based machines I am running > the > :: > FreeBSD (various releases from 2.2.8-RELEASE -> 4.3-STABLE) > operating > :: > system, on Sun Sparc based machines I am running either Solaris > 2.8, or > :: > OpenBSD 2.8 and on all of the Apple Macintosh systems I am running > :: > OpenBSD 2.8 (used primarily for SSL servers). All servers are on a > :: > 100mbit switched LAN, (using Cisco Catalyst switches), with > Gigabit > :: > (over fiber) connections between several of the key servers (eg: > primary > :: > user database and mail servers) in the progress of implementation. > We > :: > offer web-hosting, server co-location, and custom web/database > design. I > :: > use Oracle, MySQL, and PostGre SQL as well as a custom design > which > :: > leverages the UFS filesystem's capabilities for the databases. In > :: > general, I am happy with the design, and really satisfied with the > :: > performance. > :: > I cam accross your article reading a thread posted to > :: > questions@freebsd.org; and from there I understand that your move > from > :: > FreeBSD to Windows 2000 was primarily motivated by political > reasons. I > :: > can see how it would be a huge embarassment to be running one of > the > :: > most successful sites on the internet from a platform which you > cannot > :: > market and/or sell yourselves. Still, from an unbiased > perspective, I'd > :: > ask you to answer a few questions regarding this migration. > :: > First and foremost, I can see how this migration wouldn't have > incurred > :: > the licensing charges as it is a part of Microsoft; but how much > would > :: > the total cost for the licensing on all of the HotMail webservers > cost > :: > the average business (which is not owned nor operated by > Microsoft)? > :: > Judging by what it would have cost me to run Win2000 Server for a > measly > :: > 25 users on our local office LAN I can't even contemplate the > licensing > :: > cost for 5000+ servers serving millions of users. I do understand > that > :: > one may be able to get away without purchasing so many copies of > the > :: > O/S, but I cannot see how you would legally allow an outside > company to > :: > run that many servers without individually licensing them. To be > honest, > :: > I do not know much about Microsoft's licensing policies... perhaps > you > :: > do offer some sort of bulk, flat-rate, or site-wide licensing fee > :: > schedule for large server farms of this nature, do you? If so, > what > :: > would the MSRP be for say 5000 servers each serving 2000 users a > piece? > :: > Secondly, what about the upgrade path? What kind of options would > you > :: > be able to offer someone with a 5000 unit server farm when you're > next > :: > 'Service Pack' comes out? Would that company then have to > 'upgrade' all > :: > machines to the new service pack in order to avoid some > threatening > :: > back-door entrance to the system that you 'weren't aware of'? What > about > :: > say the next generation of the O/S? Would the company then have to > :: > re-purchase licensing for each server to be upgraded? What would > this > :: > cost? I mean just the software cost; not including the IT staffing > :: > requirements to actually procure such a transition. > :: > Thirdly, to what level of customization could you possibly offer > to > :: > such a company? With FreeBSD, (or any other Open-Sourced system), > the > :: > company would have the extreme flexability in that they could > simply > :: > change or alter components of the O/S which they simply do not > require. > :: > For example, the GUI; similar to Novell Netware 5, wherein the GUI > :: > doesn't have to be using system resources because it doesn't > always have > :: > to be loaded... or ever loaded to begin with for that matter. What > if > :: > the company were involved in some obtuse practise, (say VOIP), > wherein > :: > they were required to service thousands or even millions of > clients over > :: > a protocol which your O/S doesn't directly support? Would they > then have > :: > to fork-out more money for OS 'add-ons', and/or 'upgrades'? Would > they > :: > then incur more licensing fees? Would they be forced to go to a > third > :: > party to provide them with a solution that would work on your > platform? > :: > Would you then refuse to support it because it was designed a > third > :: > party; worse yet, would you blame problems their encountering on > :: > imcompatabilities or state that you 'do not support that'? > :: > Which brings us to another issue, support. What would you charge > for a > :: > support contract to be able to fully provide technical support for > a > :: > company of this magnitude? I know of several firms which support > FreeBSD > :: > for such massive endeavors, but I would assume that something this > large > :: > would have to be supported by Microsoft directly. Primarily so > because > :: > no-one else (should) have more knowledge of the O/S and/or how it > :: > functions; and therefor be knowledgable enough to support it. What > would > :: > a typical technical support contract for a company with 5000 > servers > :: > running Windows 2000 cost? > :: > Lastly, what about performance. You stated in your article that > FreeBSD > :: > does not perform well in a given scenario. From what I understand, > that > :: > given scenario really doesn't apply to Apache. Therefor you > compared the > :: > performance of two completely different things, of course stating > that > :: > yours was better. My question is, that if yours is so much better > then > :: > why are some of the largest sites on the internet still using > FreeBSD > :: > and Apache? These are the few companies which this migration could > :: > potentially apply to, for example Yahoo. Companies which do > service as > :: > many if not more clients than HotMail, yet I don't see them even > :: > attempting to justify such a migration. Why do you suppose they > aren't? > :: > Have you approached companies like Yahoo? What was the typical > response > :: > given to you by them? > :: > To sum up things a bit, I would like to know what it would have > cost an > :: > outside company to make such a transition from and open-sourced > system > :: > to Windows 2000. This would of course not include their IT > staffing, > :: > programatic changes, and downtime incurred to do so. I would like > to > :: > know why, (other than for the obvious political reasons), you > chose to > :: > make such a migration public news. I would like to better > understand how > :: > you could possible intend to market such a large migration for any > other > :: > company outside of the Microsoft Corporation. If you could > reasonably > :: > answer any of the above, in a manner as unbiased as possible I > would > :: > truly like to hear from you. Please note that I have also carbon > copied > :: > this message to the FreeBSD support list, in an effort to > understand the > :: > FreeBSD community's viewpoint on this as well. I would encourage > you to > :: > also carbon copy your response to this list, as I am sure I am not > the > :: > only one with questions of this nature. > :: > > :: > Nathan Vidican > :: > Nathan@Vidican.com > :: > http://Nathan.Vidican.com/ > :: > > :: > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > :: > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > :: > > :: > :: > :: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > :: with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > :: > :: > :: > > -- > Mark Sergeant > Unix Systems Administrator > > Fortune follows... > > Any dramatic series the producers want us to take seriously as a > representation of contemporary reality cannot be taken seriously as a > representation of anything -- except a show to be ignored by anyone > capable of sitting upright in a chair and chewing gum simultaneously. > -- Richard Schickel > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
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