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Date:      Fri, 19 Jun 2020 09:42:55 -0400
From:      Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com>
To:        FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: Update 11.3 > 11.4
Message-ID:  <CAGBxaX=+_vwivMALz7Rp14NnM7cAkdtdSOYQhqTP3MOAaW+awA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net>
References:  <20200617134146.00004ce8@seibercom.net> <CAGBxaXmN0wAhZq36H7y7H8f2qnCrjFyos9vPf_em47KCL2TvLA@mail.gmail.com> <20200617165853.000070ca@seibercom.net> <CAGBxaXn-WzZ_J8Ec=FaetqF-p4=dZtWU=b1rgipvs8MD0wsEjA@mail.gmail.com> <20200617195705.000069f0@seibercom.net> <CAGBxaXkvj6aMQeQ2mScsB6VsGye-Y+Z7WDp=q48uS6uCZ2vrVg@mail.gmail.com> <20200618071456.00004fdd@seibercom.net> <20200618134732.48b4c316.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200618083645.00001afc@seibercom.net> <CAGBxaX=nNL8VuM6bsdHjoVWxYZKF5hE3NDjrCUjdAT=y2kj5LA@mail.gmail.com> <941386f3-ce71-6cf6-005c-ab9c159ce998@heuristicsystems.com.au> <20200618184438.00003f41@seibercom.net> <CAGBxaXmSvj7gb_-s1nbCtWhAwFC49dSTG01v=jy9Whv3_WEXGw@mail.gmail.com> <20200619072002.4179e527@scorpio.seibercom.net>

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On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 7:20 AM Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Jun 2020 18:55:24 -0400, Aryeh Friedman stated:
> >On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 6:45 PM Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 08:19:12 +1000, Dewayne Geraghty commented:
> >> >Jerry,
> >> >
> >> >Aryeh's suggestion of determining the cause of the problem would be
> >> >beneficial as the PR
> >> >https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=237666
> >> >appears to be caught in a non-reproducability trap. Eg "I have an X
> >> >on version Y and no bug" will not allay anyone's concerns.
> >> >
> >> >Also reply 103 asserts that this problem doesn't exist on 11 (ie
> >> >prior to 11.4). Perhaps pulling the iso's for 11.4 and using on a
> >> >machine that reproduces the bug with 12.1 might be a more efficient
> >> >path?
> >>
> >> It doesn't exist on 11.x at ll. If you read through the comments,
> >> etcetera, it was mentioned that it is most likely a regression
> >> problem. Regression bugs have a nasty habit of spreading.
> >>
> >
> >Especially if people refuse to actual test it to see if it is a bug or
> >not on their system.  Since it is not on mine my test is meaningless
> >but your might not be and might help debug it so if you care about
> >helping the community like you do you should try it and make a
> >complete bug report as possible.   But as I said it happens in enough
> >odd different places that it is 90% likely user error not an actual
> >bug and you just falling for FUD if you are not willing to help figure
> >it out.
>
> I can confirm that the bug exists on at least a Dell XPS 8930 with 32
> GB RAM and Intel i3 Processor. The machine was purchased as a low-end
> replacement for a PC that was dying. Its sole purpose was to run a
> lightly used web-server and mail-server.
>

If you call that low end then I hate to see what you call high end.   To
most people low end means walking into the store and pointing to the
nearest machine in the $300-$500 range and saying "give me that one" .
None of those machines would have anywhere near those specs.  Note a
perfectly serviceable web/mail server can do in 4 to 8 GB for example.


> I can confirm that it works with every version of 11.x and no versions
> of 12.x. I have never tested it on 10.x or 13.x however.
>

If you never tried 13.X (aka -current) then you have no way to know if it
is fixed or not (for all you know the problem could have been MFC'ed
already).


> I have went to the lengths of using the manufacturers disk to erase and
> format the HD and resetting the BIOS to defaults. I never messed with
> the defaults anyway.
>

Some features of FreeBSD require you to mess with the defaults like if you
want to do VM's you need to often turn on virtualization which is usually
off by default.   So saying you never mess with defaults just reconfirms
that you are unwilling to try every possible source user error before
saying it is the OS's fault.  (See below for other cases of you doing the
same thing)


> The error starts as soon as the CD attempts to boot-up FreeBSD 12.x.
> Assuming, incorrectly, that the disk was bad I did a fresh download and
> burned a new CD. The sane problem existed.
>

Are you sure the CD reader can handle the size of the 12.X CD and are you
sure your burn software can do the same?  This is not a pointless question
since there are documented issues with the size of the CD image vs. the
capabilities of some hardware and/or FreeBSD (
https://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=162309+0+current/freebsd-questions
)

Did you try a different install medium like a USB memory stick or DVD (vs.
CD)?

Did you try to boot the CD image on a different machine to see if somehow
your downloads were corrupt?

This is not a user error. More than one person on more than one
> platform is experiencing this bug. I contacted Dell technical support.
> They confirmed that the bug exists, there is even a reference to it on
> their community bulletin board. They went on to say that their product
> was tested against Windows 10 and passed,(obviously) and against Linux
> and worked as intended. They stated that they DO NOT test against or
> guarantee their products will work with FreeBSD. They were also aware
> that a bug report had been filed against it in the FreeBSD Bugzilla. I
> really wish I had been made aware of it too. I made the suggestion that
> they list OSs that their equipment will not work with. They nicely
> stated that an operation of that extent would be beyond the scope of
> their technical department since their are potentially hundreds of
> thousands of individual configurations. I suggested that they test
> against a base OS installation, but they declined saying they do not
> test against FreeBSD. They would welcome me doing it though. Since they
> declined to supply me with their equipment free of charge to undertake
> this endeavor, I declined.
>
> The saying, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the
> problem", is certainly apropos to you in this incident.
>

FreeBSD is a "some assembly" required OS and you are refusing to even try
the assembly because of either not understanding the directions or not
being willing to actually test a part to see if it is defective instead of
just calling it defective and returning the whole piece of furniture (or
whatever you attempting to assemble).   At best not doing this should
disqualify you from complaining about the issue since you have no direct
proof it is not user error.  At worst it is being a spoiled rich kid
(FreeBSD was not designed for you, it was designed for people who are
willing to experiment with different things before assuming it is not a
user error).   The "rest of us" would not have the option  of just
returning the machine (due it being built out of spare parts and/or
otherwise recycled/built in such a way that it was effectively bought "as
is").   This means we have learned to tinker with what might look like a
defective part and first but instead is just something we didn't understand
the instruction on to make it work.

Bottom line so even worse than being a part of the problem you are becoming
the problem.   If you want a good example of how to do stuff right instead
of being a part of the problem see
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=247363 (especially the
last comment)

-- 
Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org



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