Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 05:28:10 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Valentine <mark@thuvia.demon.co.uk> To: tlambert2@mindspring.com (Terry Lambert), "Louis A. Mamakos" <louie@TransSys.COM> Cc: Thomas Seck <tmseck-lists@netcologne.de>, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Package system flaws? Message-ID: <200207150428.g6F4SAsT089566@dotar.thuvia.org> In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of Jul 15, 2:03am
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> From: tlambert2@mindspring.com (Terry Lambert) > Date: Mon 15 Jul, 2002 > Subject: Re: Package system flaws? > "Louis A. Mamakos" wrote: > > I think of two classes of users of the FreeBSD system. They are: > > > > A) Those that install releases from a CDROM from time-to-time. > > > > 2) Those that follow FreeBSD development on an on-going basis (e.g., > > bleeding edge -CURRENT or production -STABLE users). > > > > The "A" class of users don't need a package management system to > > maintain their systems as part of the FreeBSD base system. E.g., they > > use tools like sysinstall which isn't even built by "make buildworld", > > but is available on the distribution CDROM they booted. > > > > The "2" class of users use tools like cvsup which isn't part of the > > base system to keep their source code/repositories up to date. They > > manage to do this by using a tool in the ports/packages system. Many > > of them also choose to use tools like portupgrade, also in ports/packages. > > I respectfully disagree (and not just with your numbering not > being from a single canonical ordinal set ;^)). I think the > majority of FreeBSD users fall into an excluded middle: > > iii) Those that follow -stable or -security, and *ignore* FreeBSD > developement on an ongoing basis. > > The "iii" class of users, I would argue, represents the *vast* > majority of FreeBSD users, and I'm not just talking "by volume" > because of Yahoo and the thousands of InterJet users, I'm talking > *by user*. Yes, users just want to get their job done with the minimum of effort. They need Internet-exposed systems to keep up to date with security fixes, but they typically don't have the resources to "make world" to do it. > FreeBSD tries very hard to avoid getting into the desktop domain > and competing there, for fear that it would lose. I don't think there's anything specific to desktops in the problems we're discussing. I'd like to be able to reduce the effort for my clients to maintain their news/mail/web servers and Internet gateways. These are key areas where FreeBSD is a relatively easy pitch, but unlike desktops, these systems exist in numbers too small to warrant a cloning or similar distributed maintenance setup. For desktops, I'm not sure. I've traditionally pitched SPARC systems running my second favourite operating system there (application availability, platform stability, etc.), and of course the binary patches are there. However, it's going to increasingly be the case (partly thanks to Sun abandoning mid-range workstations years ago, but also due to changing climate) where I'm going to want to pitch FreeBSD as a fallback, where the customer probably already has Linux vaguely in mind. I have the improved cohesiveness and reliability of FreeBSD on my side, and I have the ability to set up an environment where the customer can update these systems from a central build, but the admins I see in my market are just scared of operating system source code. So binary updates are probably pretty important there too. > Rather than trusting people with this, I would like to see the > ability to learn institutionalized in the project and the tools, > so that when individuals responsible leave, either voluntarily, > or by getting hit by a bus, that the learning is not lost. I'd like to hear your ideas on how to make _that_ happen! :-) Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Valentine, Thuvia Labs <mark@thuvia.co.uk> <http://www.thuvia.co.uk>; "Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich." Mark Valentine uses "We're kind of stupid that way." *munch* *munch* and endorses FreeBSD -- <http://www.calvinandhobbes.com>; <http://www.freebsd.org>; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message
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