From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Mon Dec 4 00:03:45 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B30E6CE8F for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B607B6F67C for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id B555BE6CE8E; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E9DE6CE8D for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 760CA6F67B for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:03:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id t1so8736025ite.5 for ; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:03:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=PN+wE6Bz4tmhXD3ILk7RfWp0O7NQkD6KBImiXtv+oxc=; b=eeS9DUvfGdOJSWREjPicT8Rcn07w8QEEL3FUHlDWYSPNEC0eZtYXa1jQNj45GUQrVn J+BE4AnmOLOYYK3Fw0O4sToXntqXgQ14Wu91LpTfqyPUUqpimD04BztIgn553nF0+AD1 NcMn/gQxouU7NapWvAitKxTRB8RiJihbiLhdfNGmQb8QYOVIDCEM4OHqF/7H2XQxnHTi GbuXj67w0Oa0ZMLMNAKWNKBCllUnXud0TdKRkz7cgLzKLJdsR4IKBu7YIlEezEvk9Rr1 DzKLiviubzKLZE3UJi72H8cjdnp6PQoE3PClV+yzWDgX4btGE146gIQtAx253xDCWi/T SooQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PN+wE6Bz4tmhXD3ILk7RfWp0O7NQkD6KBImiXtv+oxc=; b=SnRIimdwig5+ShZXLqD8iMF+45/CxQ8KUiYBc2OK+KGHX/PffiXqp+ky1lUu3svs1Z y2hwe+HAN4K5wuIBymd7mkCu2+4r4SRZN5abbQ/TV5gOR0PykbFwpNV/fNRfgDcSWrmI mpjIsN6Ev3chARElPKNd9Qv80tLhhKQ6IG31HL22QIIupUN8TkWRKfQkPnG+rpQOpe4u en2S+BeIdzpnt8owEEkmL8Yqp1hXlUScYc+nmK3oIFH2F9c5gwCr/szy3GqIwKC8QUiR MBxAh2e6Y7R5eAypqpd57Bw88WRn+P9kbUUvq6Py5uAsanWcgYqPvEarOMfib3svTrxG RofA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7Zv1qGP4itwtRFt04CNn9vaTJpW2egx0pC26HnvKIEEDHA7VZ9 /vpMf3SSDdgkkn6ThKfY8AIye1N9RS74OuAEuYpwIsUN X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZhsTF7eiLkOk4zwJaQ+3d5fem36MSEFHe72dveWQJRrkCm8AMgZ96cc5F6r1DloKNxM7LSW3gfJpqzwn/ZHWQ= X-Received: by 10.107.104.18 with SMTP id d18mr20057195ioc.136.1512345824666; Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:03:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: wlosh@bsdimp.com Received: by 10.79.108.204 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:03:43 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [2603:300b:6:5100:1052:acc7:f9de:2b6d] In-Reply-To: <20171204092457.I961@besplex.bde.org> References: <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> <20171204092457.I961@besplex.bde.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:03:43 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: PVSTpzoXcJZUkKU4OVVhPiRPVOg Message-ID: Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support To: Bruce Evans Cc: Cy Schubert , Hans Petter Selasky , Eitan Adler , "Rodney W. Grimes" , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:03:46 -0000 On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert >> wrote: >> >> In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney >>> W. >>> Gri >>> mes" writes: >>> >> > The inner quoting is more broken than usual (split in the middle of > rgrimes' name). The googles are hating me... That is to say gmail does this automatically, and apparently with malice of forethought when rgrimes is involved. **RANT ON** >>>> >>>> Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so >>>> my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, >>>> it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers >>>> can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 >>>> lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass >>>> of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c >>>> running? >>>> >>> > Actually 5000+ lines of code: at least: > - 2835 lines in dev/fdc > - 195 lines in sys/fdcio.h > - 335 lines in man4/fdc.4 > - 2578 lines in fdcontrol, fdformat, fdread and fdwrite > > The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It >> got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does >> not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. >> >> Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent >> with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from >> ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. >> > > ISADMA worked for writing by fdformat and cp of 1 floppy under -current > here. > I used a UP i386 system with 1GB. If the bug only affects SMP, and64 or > large memory, then it is easy to work around by not using these. Memory > above 4GB is especially easy to avoid using a boot option. I may have been booting a MP kernel when I tried. I'll have to give it another try. Just to confirm, this was a FreeBSD/i386 kernel, not a FreeBSD/amd64 kernel, right? And was this for a 5.25" drive or 3.5" drive? I know both on the same controller cannot work due to some unfortunate assumptions in the code that looked hard to change... If the code is actually working today, for both read and write, then that changes my attitude, though not by a huge amount... Working code for old devices is almost never removed from the tree unless the device has lost all relevance (a hard case to be made here, since people still use them more often than many of the other things in the tree). I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old >>> leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) >>> controllers and take a poke at it. >>> >>> USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet >>> committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to >>> borked >>> USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into >>> the existing fdformat. >>> >> >> I'd commit it as is (ufdformat). It's functionality is quite a bit >> different because the CDBs are much less expressive than the full NEC 765 >> chip supports (which is itself a subset of what you can do on a floppy, >> but >> I digress). >> > > So usb floppy drives can't even duplicate fdformat's functionality? > There is also hard to replace functionality in other utilites. The problem is that USB floppy definition is only for 3.5" 1.44MB diskettes. Well, to be honest, that's not entirely true, it also supports 720k DD 3.5" diskette and a total oddball 1.25MB HD diskette (77 tracks, 8 sectors, 1024 bytes per sector). See table 35 in http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/devclass_docs/usbmass-ufi10.pdf if you want the details. I was disappointed that 5.25" wasn't supported at all in the specification, or there wasn't some generic way to specify things when I was looking at this for some rx50 work I did earlier this year.. Warner