From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 12 13:37:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC81B33A8D7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:37:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 6.mo68.mail-out.ovh.net (6.mo68.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.63.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49k1xl0C5fz4Wb5 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:37:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player750.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.110.171.173]) by mo68.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7282316FD98 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:37:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from defert.com (ip-146-0-189-252.dyn.luxfibre.pt.lu [146.0.189.252]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player750.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BCD01343ACCD for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:37:43 +0000 (UTC) From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Subject: Openness vs. Comfort To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:37:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 9594637533667526660 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudeiuddgieekucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfdpvefjgfevmfevgfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecuhedttdenucenucfjughrpefhuffvkffffgggtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeggihhntggvnhhtucffgffhgfftvfcuoedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeltdeugeffteeiffejueehheekgeegudegtdehieeuueehhfefgeetkedvffetgeenucfkpheptddrtddrtddrtddpudegiedrtddrudekledrvdehvdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdqohhuthdphhgvlhhopehplhgrhigvrhejhedtrdhhrgdrohhvhhdrnhgvthdpihhnvghtpedtrddtrddtrddtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepvddtrddutddtseguvghfvghrthdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehfrhgvvggsshguqdhquhgvshhtihhonhhssehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhg X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49k1xl0C5fz4Wb5 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 46.105.63.100 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_VERYGOOD(0.00)[46.105.63.100:from]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.08)[-1.078]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.64)[-0.638]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[defert.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[46.105.63.100:from]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:46.105.0.0/16, country:FR]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 13:37:47 -0000 Hi, The "freebsd vs. netbsd" thread and its flame war about top posting made me think seriously about what I've perceived in the FreeBSD community over the last 9 months. My impression is that there are 2 sub-groups in the FreeBSD community, those wanting FreeBSD to dominate over Windows and Linux, and those wanting to keep every semi-colon in its set line and column forever. [ Deliberate exaggeration here, but posts on this mailing-list and on the forums seldom fall in the mid-range. ] I tend to think that this schism is caused by a lack of common vision. And without a vision, you have no criteria to make decisions, so you end up battling over and over with little results. With a vision, it would be easy to decide what is important and what is not, but there are a couple of obvious things that can be discussed already. 1. Why mailing lists? I assume all of you have perfectly healthy eyes. Great! Unfortunately, this is not my case. For me, reading plain text messages is a torture. I made an effort in the beginning, but it is not possible in the long term. However, as healthy as you may be, I've read complaints about the person recently posting from his smartphone - and yes, his messages were in effect as unreadable as the replies. But what purpose do these mailing lists serve? I've read several times they were the right place to meet developers, but this is mostly true for freebsd-current@ an freebsd-stable@, not this one. So in the end, this mailing list (freebsd-questions@) is just to be used when looking for help. Which means that at the time you need help, you must face additional difficulties, at least legibility and focus. So one should only use this list when not in need of high importance help. I don't know what you do when you have to solve a problem, but the first thing most people do is google for it. And what do you get when you google something? Links to web pages. Which mean that if answers given on this list had some value, they will be invisible to most people. So using a mailing list in 2020 is reserved to things of little or no value. Important things deserve a forum: they are visible (indexed by search engines), legible (web browsers accessibility features) and well structured (threads) so you can stay focused on what you're here for. 2. Linuxophobia / Linuxallergia If I were fully satisfied with Linux, I wouldn't be there. However, there are also good things in the Linux world that could inspire development decisions for FreeBSD. But many people in the FreeBSD community seem to suffer from severe Linuxophobia and/or Linuxallergia, throwing out the baby with the bath water. So what do we get in 2020? A ports collection with a huge dependency mess and unreliable package repositories that remove your applications when a build has failed. This could be admissible in the 90s, but not in 2020. When you report these issues, you're told "jail everything" or "use poudriere". Those who do so set strong barriers around FreeBSD. Using jails means every new user must learn a whole lot of things to use FreeBSD, even in irrelevant use cases. Using poudriere means learning even more + dedicating a machine to build your packages + waiting for as long as needed to build everything you need + fixing bugs + rebuilding. It means FreeBSD imposes on its new users a tremendous cost - a cost which is incurred only ONCE for each Linux distribution for the benefit of all its users. Linux distributions have fully addressed these issues 15 years ago and it is the bare minimum expected from a distribution. At least for this, Linux would be a good source of inspiration. And I know at least one Linux package management system released under the BSD license. The evolution of the IT landscape over the last decade shows a dramatic loss of appetite in more and more people for reinventing the wheel over and over. 3. Comfort and Openness FreeBSD has a great base system and a great text mode installer, but what's the point in installing it if managing applications is a mess and asking for help a curse? Obviously, what is privileged in the making of development decisions is the comfort of first time FreeBSD adopters. However, comfort is a great thing as long as it doesn't turn into rigidity. Conversely, life requires from a species a minimal interest in its environment and a minimal ability to adapt. There is a word for this: openness. Being open (or opening up) doesn't mean giving up on what matters to you. It just means you know quite well what matters to you and you feel safe considering what surrounds you, and use whatever out there you deem appropriate to take good and continued care of what matters to you. 4. And so what? Nothing. My sole purpose was to provide you with an insight of how FreeBSD and its community could be perceived by an outsider in 2020. I'm pretty sure it is of interest to some of you, it's the only reason I wrote this mail. But in the end, interested or not, what you do or don't do with this piece of information is yours, not mine. Vincent PS: These topics are not FreeBSD-specific, they apply to all BSD OS, the situation of the others is just much more degraded.