From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 10 20:59:30 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB8316A419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:59:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from relay.riscworks.net (v32231.1blu.de [88.84.154.71]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA77413C4D5 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:59:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from timo.schoeler@riscworks.net) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (f054173084.adsl.alicedsl.de [78.54.173.84]) by relay.riscworks.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0AA0136E0002; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:59:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from zoidberg.riscworks.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zoidberg.riscworks.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E5FA28BAA; Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:59:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:59:31 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler To: "Paul B. Mahol" Message-Id: <20080110215931.f14b78ec.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> References: <189878.45301.qm@web57002.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080110171132.GM71709@tuxaco.net> <1199987094.1713.20.camel@localhost> <47866B2A.8070503@elischer.org> <20080110201548.36862edb.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> <3a142e750801101134p659f50c8qac731334dab9877d@mail.gmail.com> Organization: RISCworks Environtech X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.3; amd64-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: strace broken in 7.0? X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:59:30 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus "Paul B. Mahol" spake on Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:34:45 +0000: > Strace from ports on 8.0 current works without problems. Part of the discussion on bsdforen.de was some people complaining that parts of the base system (as well as [important] ports) do not work, and are maintained very badly due to 'no interest'. As already appeared in this discussion here, it would be nice to be more 'conservative'; this word has it's origin in latin language, com servare, to preserve; "to protect from loss or harm". So a 'conservative development model' (the BSDs where typically known for) leads to a well functioning environment. The only BSD I know of where this really *is* the case is OpenBSD. NetBSD, e.g., had times where their tree didn't build (especially for me between 3.99.3 and 3.99.15 on macppc). FreeBSD has a damn high number of open/unfixed PRs, and people complain more and more that this harms them in several ways. Nobody wants to rant, it's just about _improvement_. Improvement, or the idea of how to improve something (FreeBSD), needs user feedback. This is a fact that should be known by every developer/coder/hacker on this planet (but obviously isn't, as one can experience almost every day). The problem here is that some developers don't get this. They think someone wants to rant or p*ss them off. *This* is a real problem. I've been using NetBSD and OpenBSD for almost 15 years now (I joined very early), FreeBSD for almost nine or ten years. During this period of time, unfortunately, only OpenBSD kept its promises. They are really strong with their ideals, but suffer from other problems (bad performance, bad SMP stack, and a jackass leader). NetBSD has (had?) a problem to justify its very close relationship to Wasabi Systems, Inc. FreeBSD seems to decay from release to release; don't get me wrong, I *do* like new features, enhances SMP, ZFS, all this stuff, no problem. *BUT* please don't forget the basis. It wouldn't surprise me if ls(1) doesn't work when 8.0 is released. This is a real problem. Version numbering is absolutely unimportant. FreeBSD has a phantastic reputation as super stable (server) OS. This is absolutely independent from both version numbers and features implemented. Wearing my license-ignoring head, 'if I want features, I run Linux'. Seriously. Up to now, we only use BSD-based software in-house or at customers, or we use commercial Unices (AIX, Solaris, et al). We don't like Linux. But with the rate of decay of the last months and years almost throughout the BSD family, we're forced to go commercial. Set OpenBSD aside, I feel a gigantic lack of leadership. > BTW, have a nice day. Thanks, have a nice day, too. :) Best regards, Timo > On 1/10/08, Timo Schoeler wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA512 > > > > Thus Julian Elischer spake on Thu, 10 Jan 2008 > > 10:59:54 -0800: > > > > > Tom Evans wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2008-01-10 at 18:11 +0100, Philippe Audéoud wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Unga wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Hi all > > > >>> > > > >>> strace (v4.5.5) works well in 6.2. But strace (v4.5.6) > > > >>> develops following error in 7.0-PRERELEASE: > > > >>> $ strace pwd > > > >>> execve(0xbfbfe92c, [0xbfbfedf4], [/* 0 vars > > > >>> */]PIOCWSTOP: Input/output error > > > > > > > > > and the reason you don't use ktrace is..? > > > > I tried to hide, really. But this is a perfect example of what the > > bsdforen.de discussion is about. > > > > q.e.d. > > > > timo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHhoc0UY3eBSqOgOMRCrIQAJ9SGjpllSd3RBoR32jafx0XaKJy6QCfSIi+ /f/TymjBzS1H9VH/OVcWR/8= =2k0g -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----