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Date:      Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:09:52 -0700
From:      Vizion <vizion@vizion.occoxmail.com>
To:        freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, martin hudec <corwin@aeternal.net>
Subject:   Spam or not? Extracted from Re: php extensions compile error - another compile bug?
Message-ID:  <200509111009.52704.vizion@vizion.occoxmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <20050911154901.GI69713@pleiades.aeternal.net>
References:  <200509090959.40296.vizion@vizion.occoxmail.com> <200509110750.15613.vizion@vizion.occoxmail.com> <20050911154901.GI69713@pleiades.aeternal.net>

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On Sunday 11 September 2005 08:49,  the author martin hudec contributed to the 
dialogue on-
 Re: php extensions compile error - another compile bug?: 

>Hello David,
>
>On Sun, Sep 11, 2005 at 07:50:14AM -0700 or thereabouts, Vizion wrote:
>> Seeing as I am in the process of trying to build a resource to help
>> victims of the Katrina disaster your tone of  correspondence, and speed of
>> engagement, has the unfortunate effect of reminding me about FEMA.
>>
>> There are two bugs in the makefile and one other issue that causes
>> problems, so it is not surprising that some degree of traffic was
>> generated.
>>
>> Seeing as the two bugs appear to be in your php Makefile and that other
>> people have helped me resolve them on the mailing lists, it is not
>> surprising you have received, not only the private email, but also the
>> listmail which tracked how others responded, while you sat back quietly. I
>> even wondered whether you were a victim of Katrina and were therefore
>> unable to function for that reason.
>
>  Please try to be professional and try not to let emotions get rule
>  over you. Reminders of Katrina all the time are imho absolutely
>  irrelevant and I considered them to be purpose-made. 
First - thanks for your input - it is appreciated - let us not turn this into 
a flame.

My view is simple --I was stating the truth -- that was what happened - I even 
expressed my concern to a third party, hoping that ale had not been caught up 
in the Katrina disaster. 

>  I do have respect 
>  for all the work that is being done during these hard times. So should
>  you have respect on other hand on work and time of others, who are
>  willing to give their time and resources to solve your problem. 

I have had no expectations of anyone see my comment to ale:
>> I do not know whether you have time to look at this one or not?
which was sent in my private email to him - so I was giving him the respect 
for the
>work and time of others

>  Maybe 
>  he was not sitting back quietly, maybe he was with his dying father in
>  hospital. You don't know. So do not make wrong assumptions.
>

I made no assumption. The fact was others responded, solved the bug and he was 
quiet during that process. I had no expectation that he would be 
cojntributing but I could not respond other than by acknowledging that others 
haf been helpful while his first and only response was to chide me  for NOT 
having written to him privately, when I had,
>> When one is trying, against a background of some urgency, to solve bugs,
>> and there is no feed back from the first responder, then those who are
>> resourceful turn to the appropriate mailing lists.
>
>  Appropriate mailing lists are meaned by you to be every possible lists
> that contain php and/or freebsd in their name? 
No 


> For example: your mail with 
> query around www/phpbb makefile in freebsd-hackers@ - what the heck has
> freebsd-hackers@ to do with this mail? Shouldn't be freebsd-ports more
> appropriate?

You are right I should have cc'd that email to the maintainer tofreebsd ports 
rather than hackers. That was a mistake on my part.
>
>> If you feel like upset by the amount of traffic that you receive then you
>> might consider dropping some of the mail lits to which you subscribe, and
>> use the time you save to at least acknowledge requested bug reports and
>> other emails sent directly to you. In which case you would have had no
>> reason to have complained about the traffic and I might have had some
>> chance of getting a genuine and thoughtful response from you.
>
>  This is absolutely arrogant of you to say that one should drop off
>  from some maillists. 
How can it be arrogant to make a suggestion? If I had used directive language 
then such an accusation could be justified. 

My observation is that ale was getting the cc's that were due to him in his 
role as maintainer - however he was also getting copies from the list (I 
could not count on that). I also note that others who contributed to the 
dialogue also cc'd ale out of respect to his position as maintainer. He 
therefore had a mailbox of duplicates. 

Ale was on the distribution list because it is a topic for which he has 
accepted some responsibility as  the port maintainer.  Noone has any way of 
knowing if he receives mail via the lists (I do not know his subscription 
list) and it would be rude not to include him in the cc.

>  This was not his problem but yours. 
With respect I do not agree. 
As maintainer Ale has acceopted some responsibility in regard to the php5 
port. So if there are two bugsand one "bug/feature" in the Makefile they are 
problems for which he has voluntarily accepted some level of responsibility. 
I am one who initiated the process of identifying them and subsequently 
reporting it in the manner and with the information he requested. The 
inescapble fact is that for whatever reason he has not responded other than 
by a public posting to multiple addresses which seemed focesed on  attacking 
me and thereby drawing attention away from the reported bugs.

As I had at no time made an criticism of him, public or private, It seemed to 
me it would have been more appropriate to respond publicly and professionally 
to his accepted responsibility as port maintainer. If he had any queries 
about how I had tackled it then  it might have been more professional to have 
emailed me privately and seek my reactions before thowing dirt in public.


>  You've  
>  spammed. 
With respect I do not agree. I beleive the accusation of spamming is a 
diversion away from a professional response to the subject of the traffic. 
Are you sure you are not confusing the volume of traffic with spamming? 
Spamming is the unsolicited posting of mail to an individual recipent or off 
topic postings to a list. I therefore suggest the allegation of spamming is a 
red herring.

All posting (with the possible and inadvertent misdirection to hackers rather 
than ports) were to the appropriate list and on topics appropriate lists to 
which I have subscribed.n Here are some more details.
 
Early in the  wekk there were some phpp threads in regard to phpbb features 
and choices of forum software. Those are not relevant to ale's spamming 
allegation.

There is a lot of mail within four different and legitimate threads with 
others contributing to the threads. Three on php5 (where the cc list included 
those who were directly helping and ale as the maintainer) and one phpbb.

1. thread dealing with the first php5 bug:
                "php extensions compile error"  Freebsd-Questions
2. Thread dealing with second  php5 bug:
               "php extensions compile error - another compile bug?"
                Freebsd-Questions
3. Thread dealing with php5 --disable-all "bug/feature"
               "PHP on FreeBSD - Compiler Bugs and Option selection"
                Freebsd-Questions
                php-general@lists.php.net
                This was also circulated to the php list because the topic is 
relevant to that list and the way php5 is ported influences the output from 
phpinfo() that php ptogrammers rely upon when building modules.

4. Phpbb
               "phpbb installation"

The original bug report on php5-extensions was sent to Ale as per his 
instructions early on Friday morning.  I had received no reply by 4:00pm so I 
posted a short version to freebsd questions a little after 6pm. There 
followed a dialogue between kevin and I



>  But as I am reading your mail from Thursday about Stupid working too
>  late.. on freebsd-questions@.. I would give you one advice: get some
>  rest and sleep. 

Good advice. It would be easier to do if people did not waste their time 
initiating public attacks on othersrather than responding to legitmate 
questions within their sphere of voluntarily accepted responsibilities. 
Especially when I said to him in my email yesterday:

"I would be interested in what others have to say and would like to place on 
record my appreciation for all your work in maintaining the ports."

To which he responded in the way that is on record. 

>Please do not feel offended.
>
I am not at all offended - you have reported what you feel. That is honest and 
you have my response.
>  I apologize to everyone for being too off-topic here.

In my opinion you are right on topic.

>
>  	good luck with your efforts,

Thank you

david

-- 
40 yrs navigating and computing in blue waters.
English Owner & Captain of British Registered 60' bluewater Ketch S/V Taurus.
 Currently in San Diego, CA. Sailing bound for Europe via Panama Canal after 
completing engineroom refit.



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