From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 11 21:26:32 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C331065670 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:26:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carmel_ny@hotmail.com) Received: from blu0-omc4-s31.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc4-s31.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.170]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B646B8FC08 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:26:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from BLU0-SMTP26 ([65.55.111.135]) by blu0-omc4-s31.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:26:31 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [67.189.183.172] X-Originating-Email: [carmel_ny@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net ([67.189.183.172]) by BLU0-SMTP26.blu0.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:26:30 -0800 Received: from scorpio.seibercom.net (scorpio.seibercom.net [192.168.1.101]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: carmel_ny@scorpio.seibercom.net) by scorpio.seibercom.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D1A422834 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:26:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:26:29 -0500 From: Carmel To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Organization: seibercom.net X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.3 (GTK+ 2.18.5; i386-portbld-freebsd7.2) Face: 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 X-Face: "\j?x](l|]4p?-1Bf@!wN<&p=$.}^k-HgL}cJKbQZ3r#Ar]\%U(#6}'?<3s7%(%(gxJxxcR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2009 21:26:30.0602 (UTC) FILETIME=[9AF062A0:01CA7AA8] Subject: Re: 'X' vs. 'Mouse' X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:26:32 -0000 On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:48:36 -0700 (MST) Warren Block replied: >On Fri, 11 Dec 2009, Carmel wrote: > >> Honestly, did the 'X' developers go out of their way to break mouse, >> and to a lesser degree, keyboard support when upgrading? > >No, they were trying to upgrade a very old, static system (X11) to >support their users. One thing that had been lacking was any support >for hotplugging input devices. To implement that, they used HAL, >because basically it's the only thing available. Correct me if I am wrong; however, I believe I read that 'HAL' is dead. Further work on it is not going to happen. If that is correct, are we to expect another fiasco when its replacement comes online. >So now we have a combination of several unfortunate things: > >* Users are used to an X11 that has been unchanged for years. >* At the same time, xorg users and developers want new features. >* The only way to support some of the features is with new software, >and > HAL was the only thing out there that ran on multiple systems and > supported hotplug detection. >* HAL is totally unlike X and uses XML config files. >* Most xorg development takes place on Linux, where HAL is more common > than on FreeBSD. >* There are only a couple of FreeBSD developers actively working on >the huge > and complicated job of porting and supporting xorg. >* The first port of xorg-server with HAL support on FreeBSD had a bug. > The bug workaround is still being applied by users, long after the > bug was fixed, and sometimes--but not always!--it unfixes things. > >So add all this confusion together, and you end up where we are now. >I suspect it seems worse than it really is, since the current xorg >will run on a lot of systems without an xorg.conf at all. > >> This forum has been riddled with questions on why their hardware >> (mouse) has stopped working and how to get it working again. If >> Microsoft had pulled a bone-headed stunt like this, they would be >> chastised; however, hardly a word has been uttered regarding the >> poor choices made by the 'X' development team. > >The other side of that argument is that Microsoft has supported >hotplugging input devices for more than a decade. I have often wondered what the delay in developing hot-plugging in non-win32 systems was. Worse, HAL requiring the creation of of XML files sort of defeats the entire concept of 'plug & play'. >> I question whether they actually tested this product prior to >> releasing it. I have been following a few forums besides this one >> and they all report the same problem. I realize that 'HAL' has >> something to do with this situation also. Perhaps if all the >> concerned parties would get their acts together this sort of fiasco >> would not continually happen. > >You could go to the xorg mailing lists at freedesktop.org and set them >straight. They might cheerfully offer to refund your money. I think you are being overly glib regarding this problem. I stand by my original statement that the parties involved should have tested the final product more thoroughly. As a side note, I officiate youth league sport's programs in my spare time. I don't get paid either. Still, I would never do a crap job just because I was not being financially compensated for my efforts. >You could also offer to help development or testing, either to the >FreeBSD developers or xorg. I have beta tested applications in the past. I was not aware that Xorg was releasing beta products aimed at FreeBSD. I was under the impression that offerings from Xorg were only ported to FreeBSD after they were released to Linux users. >> It is really hard to push the merits of an operating system when you >> have to give detailed instructions to the potential end user on how >> to get a "mouse" to work, when all they have to do in a Win32 based >> system is plug it in. > >xorg is not FreeBSD, but if you're looking for an integrated GUI >operating system based on FreeBSD, PC-BSD seems to be well-regarded. I never meant to infer that FreeBSD == xorg. >> I really cannot fathom a seven year old having to modify >> an XML document to facilitate their playing a "How to Spell" CD, >> assuming that they could even get the CD operational. > >Normally you'd start by finding out whether they prefer vi or emacs. Absolutely; anything but OO. -- Jerry gesbbb@yahoo.com |::::======= |::::======= |=========== |=========== | If one cannot enjoy reading a book over and over again, there is no use in reading it at all. Oscar Wilde