From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Oct 20 21:29:52 2004 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78B616A4CE; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:29:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEDC43D46; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:29:52 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) i9KLTmvA045311; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.9p2/8.12.9/Submit) id i9KLTmTK045310; Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 14:29:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200410202129.i9KLTmTK045310@apollo.backplane.com> To: Julian Elischer References: <41767CF1.2020005@FreeBSD.org> <6ff30abd04102008163115a32d@mail.gmail.com> <20041020.093211.78703993.imp@bsdimp.com> <4176D21F.3060108@elischer.org> cc: Wilko Bulte cc: mitigator@gmail.com cc: current@freebsd.org cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: What do people think about not installing a stripped /kernel ?] X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:29:53 -0000 The key point here, folks, is the KISS principle. The idea is to make life easier for (1) inexperienced BSD users especially those who are doing new installs from scratch and (2) the developers that have to field bug reports from the former, and (3) To do it without adding more confusion or complication to the installation operation or the recovery/savecore operation or the directory layout. God knows you have enough of that already. savecore already copies /kernel to /var/crash, I'm just making it copy a kernel with debug symbols for convenience. People already gdb running kernels, I'm just making it easier to do so without having to save a separate copy of the kernel.debug somewhere else where it winds up getting out of sync with what is actually running. We already have to field lots of bug reports from users who know enough to get a core, but don't have a useful kernel to debug the core with. This saves a step. In fact, we enable core dumps in our installs now and once we fix up /var/crash's size (for new installs), even total newbies will be able to provide useful cores to us. That is what is being addressed here. The idea is decidedly NOT to hack things to pieces with alternative debug files that will confuse more people then it helps, even if you do make 'savecore' do the right thing. And the idea is most decidedly NOT to make things easier for the *experienced* developers who cannot otherwise be bothered to add a simple option to their kernel config to revert to a stripped install if space is an issue, or add a single strip command to their full custom flash card installer, or things of that ilk. Those are really silly arguments IMHO. In anycase, the only real issue vis-a-vie FreeBSD is the space consideration on your CDs, and that only effects the decision whether to include a debug kernel on the CD or a stripped kernel on the CD and doesn't really prevent implementation of the idea generally. As Julian said (and I brought this up on our lists too), it's easy enough for the installer to strip the kernel it installs. I would strongly recommend making the room, because a release CD hits the target audience for this square on the peg. We've been going with packageless and sourceless release CDs and only one or two people grumbled about having to download things over a modem, and even those had downloaded the ISO over their modem so it wouldn't even have helped to include them on the CD. pkg_add -r is your friend, and the internet is now far more wide-spread then it was a decade ago. Maybe the time is ripe for the change in your HEAD. -Matt