Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 12:56:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" <rgrimes@freebsd.org>, Warner Losh <imp@freebsd.org>, src-committers <src-committers@freebsd.org>, svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r327379 - head/sys/isa Message-ID: <201712302056.vBUKuR5L077619@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfp=doCqxo2Vmxb4du2mG9EAyrRbKtLmkQT9M5gMwrGmWg@mail.gmail.com>
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> On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Rodney W. Grimes < > freebsd@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > > On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Rodney W. Grimes < > > > freebsd@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > > > [ Charset UTF-8 unsupported, converting... ] > > > > > Author: imp > > > > > Date: Sat Dec 30 08:16:31 2017 > > > > > New Revision: 327379 > > > > > URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/327379 > > > > > > > > > > Log: > > > > > On further testing on actual machines with this hardware, we should > > > > > only warn for devices that are attached. Add missing \n. > > > > > > > > > > Modified: > > > > > head/sys/isa/isa_common.c > > > > > > > > > > Modified: head/sys/isa/isa_common.c > > > > > ============================================================ > > > > ================== > > > > > --- head/sys/isa/isa_common.c Sat Dec 30 07:59:32 2017 > > (r327378) > > > > > +++ head/sys/isa/isa_common.c Sat Dec 30 08:16:31 2017 > > (r327379) > > > > > @@ -573,9 +573,10 @@ isa_probe_children(device_t dev) > > > > > > > > > > err = device_probe_and_attach(child); > > > > > if (err == 0 && idev->id_vendorid == 0 && > > > > > - strcmp(kern_ident, "GENERIC") == 0) > > > > > + strcmp(kern_ident, "GENERIC") == 0 && > > > > > + device_is_attached(child)) > > > > > device_printf(child, > > > > > - "non-PNP ISA device will be removed from > > > > GENERIC in FreeBSD 12."); > > > > > + "non-PNP ISA device will be removed from > > > > GENERIC in FreeBSD 12.\n"); > > > > > > > > Hat: RE > > > > > > > > Do you plan to give this notice in 11.x? (Technically a bit late, > > > > it should of been in 11.0). > > > > > > > > > > Yes. It will be MFC'd soon. Of course it should have happened in 11.0, > > but > > > it didn't. But this notice is just about things in GENERIC. Not their > > > actual removal (though most of them will be removed). The notice is here > > > because GENERIC is going to be cut to the bone once the PNP stuff I'm > > > working on makes it viable to have all drivers (well, most) kld loaded. > > The > > > only ones that will affect users, though, are the ones that are for > > hinted > > > devices which will have no autoloading. Hence this warning. > > > > Thanks for claifying. > > > > > > > > > As giving it in 12.0 wont happen if you remove it in 12. Ie, as you > > > > have stated you want to remove this before we branch 12.0, if you do > > > > that this notice well never be seen by the users. Or well, they might > > > > get the notice, but the drivers well have already been removed. > > > > > > > > Or do you want to give notice in 12.* that it is being removed in 13.0. > > > > And that is not supporting these for 10 years, as 12.x should be EOL > > > > in a bit over 5 years from now if we cut in early 2018 which I believe > > > > to be the current target. > > > > > > > > > > No. All non-PNP ISA devices will be removed from GENERIC in 12. That is, > > if > > > they are still in the tree. A number will simply be gone, however. I'll > > be > > > putting warnings in those drivers soon. It would have been ideal had we > > > done so earlier, but we didn't. Simple lack of notice, however, isn't > > going > > > to keep things in the tree. The following drivers will be removed in 12: > > > aha, adv, adw, bt, aic, ct, dpt, ncv, nsp, stg, mse, joy, cm and likely > > cx > > > and rx. arcnet too will be removed. Still need to check on dangling > > > references old TTY code as well that hasn't built in FreeBSD 8. This list > > > has circulated before, and I'll be codifying a run-time warning into all > > > these drivers on attach, plus getting a head-start on what to remove in > > 13. > > > > Many of those listed devices, though they have an ISA device, they also > > support pci variants. I didnt check all of them, but I know from usage > > that the bt and dpt drivers support PCI pnp cards just fine. > > So is this more than just ISA axeing? > > > adv, adw, bt, ncv and stg did have PCI variants. They are all old parallel ^^^ do? > scsi cards that are no longer relevant. All but adw only supported SCSI 1 > speeds and an 8-bit width. adw did support wide SCSI (aka 16-bit), but it's > still a fairly low-level device, but was an unpopular card back in the day. Um, this is what bothers me when this stuff comes up, claims that are simply false are often made: Adapter Bus Commands Description BT-948 PCI 192 Ultra SCSI-3 BT-958 PCI 192 Wide Ultra SCSI-3 BT-958D PCI 192 Wide Differential Ultra SCSI-3 I am almost certain that the dpt family also has similiar capabitlites. > > This was the list that jhb circulated about a year ago. I'm just trying to > formalize it in case something that's on it that shouldn't be. I am fine with axeing the ISA portions of these drivers, but for at least the bt and dpt famility I believe that the PCI pnp driver should continue to live. > > > FreeBSD has grown large. While you can still boot it on that old 32MB > > > machine, you really want 128MB or more to do anything useful. You need at > > > least 2GB or a heck of a lot of swap to self-host. We should simply be > > > removing the really old stuff that wouldn't be on a machine that size. > > > Expect more announcements like this to be coming soon from the people > > that > > > have been taking are of and feeding this old stuff for too long. If we > > cut > > > with the 128MB criteria, the list would be much, much longer, and the > > cuts > > > much deeper. > > > > I have a large pile of VM's running in 64MB, and only have to bump to 128MB > > when I load a GENERIC, which that only became an issue with 11.x. These > > 64MB vm's are running with out swap and 12MB of free memory. > > > > We get really fun failures trying to boot GENERIC on a 12 snapshot with > > even 128MB due to the WITNESS/DEBUG bloat. > > > > And a bazillion drivers you don't need taking up 20MB in GENERIC! Yes, I really do like your devmatch thing that allows us to remove many of these from GENERIC and just load them. And I think more is loadable than some realize. Technically since loader can load a device driver and a filesystem that code doesnt need to be there either. As a case in point the default ZFS install does not have ZFS in the kernel, it is loaded at boot time. The same -could- be done with UFS. > PLEASE again, do not dismiss "32MB" as old machines, this is a VERY real > > and ideal situation for those deploying mass VM instances. > > > 32MB is a very different experience than 64MB. Even with a kernel that's > stripped to the bone, you're doing good to have 18MB free in single user > and I've not been able to make it to a login prompt yet.... But a VM is > quite different than actual hardware.... Please don't get the two confused. -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 6148944 Nov 10 02:01 /boot/kernel/kernel # uname -a FreeBSD ns1.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net 11.0-RELEASE-p1 FreeBSD 11.0-RELEASE-p1 #0: Fri Nov 10 02:01:56 UTC 2017 root@bld-11.0-p1-i386.dnsmgr.net:/A/src/sys/i386/compile/CUSTOMVB i386 And this is just stripped, not stripped to the bone. Hypervisor: Origin = "bhyve bhyve " real memory = 67108864 (64 MB) avail memory = 55230464 (52 MB) Event timer "LAPIC" quality 600 And up multiuser it still has 15MB of free memory, let me boot single user.... Mem: 1156K Active, 2948K Inact, 6964K Wired, 530K Buf, 43M Free So, um, 64 - 43M == 21MB need to come up with that kernel single user, mount ufs file systems, and exec top. > Warner -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org
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