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Date:      Sat, 4 Mar 2000 21:11:46 +1100
From:      Jonathan Michaels <jon@welearn.com.au>
To:        freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit
Message-ID:  <20000304211144.B29952@phoenix.welearn.com.au>
In-Reply-To: <38C0C47A.D12688E0@talou.net>; from Brent Rector on Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 12:08:26AM -0800
References:  <000001bf8589$7b0b11c0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> <38C0C47A.D12688E0@talou.net>

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all

i have chosen this post ot use as an example, for no particular
reason other than it is a good example of an improperly formated
post (quoted, that is).

we all see mail come and  we all send mail. in the old days (not
so long ago, and still very relevent in most of teh world)
bandwith was limited -- a fast route and all teh backbone trunk
routes were 64 k isdn bearers (56k analouge dialup modem bearers
for our usa participants).

it was expected that all the  participants knew how expensive
bandwidth was and knew how to use it in an appropriate manner.
there used to be regular post in usenet concerning the care and
feeding of the interneworking (shortended to "the internet" and
now just "the net") links that were in common usage.

one of the quickest way to kill available bandwidth is to not
trim mail apropriately, that is to leave whole articels in the
message when replying to one sentance, or just adding a standard
"me too" line at the bottom.

the issue of correct quoting is dealt with in "teh complete
freebsd" with reasonable clarity.

anyway, it  would be good for someelse  to write a howto quote
correctly .. i'm not real good at communicating and my writng is
not much better than my oral communications skills. 

to make the point, we all are guilty of inapropriate quoting in
our email, freebsd-newbies is the (right) place to aks one
another if our posts are apropriately quoted. or if someone says
"hey, jonthatn your post should be more succintly quoted" i
should then look at what and how  i quoted my reply rather than
take the messengers head  off .. as is the current practice not
just in freebsd-* but a pervading change in teh personality of
the whole internetworking community.

to put a nail in the one reasonable argument most people come up
with to post inapropriately and hence chew up exessive
bandwidth (i'm not including the incorrectly setup mailers that
include a html version of the plain text messge, or the ones
that include as well a mime'd version just in case).

continuity,  that is  i might not understand what  the message
is about .. thats ok go to your own archive of the mailing list
that you keep for just  such purposes, you don't have a archive
to search ? freebsd.org  keeps such archives and they are
searchable via some sort of browser interface. you don't know
how to use this resource .. see the handbook, read the freebsd
faq, ask fellow newbies failing all that get technical support
from freebsd-questions. this in general is how the chain links.

anyway, i've left the original post intact so that you can see
what i mean. i mean no hurt to brent, its that this post showed
clearly what  we all do and how inapropriate it is as a general
rule. 

warm regards

On Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 12:08:26AM -0800, Brent Rector wrote:

> Good Day Everyone,
> 
> I personally agree that questions about installation and technical
> aspects of FreeBSD should be directed to the questions@freebsd.org list.
> 
> I enjoy the posts of the newbies who are telling people about thier
> particular accomplishments, trials and tribulations.
> 
> As someone that was a complete newbie two years ago to FreeBSD and Unix
> as a whole, I found the people that answered my questions on the
> questions list to be very patient, informative... and without them I
> would not be where I am today.
> 
> This list is for the "newbie" to share his/her experiences and
> accomplishments are to chat about topics in relation to FreeBSD. I know
> its a very fine line but you will find everyone on the questions list
> very helpful... and moreso they have been where you are right now.. and
> we understand.... so ask your questions and you will find responses
> informative and helpful.
> 
> Sincerely
> 
> Brent L. Rector
> SysAdmin
> Talou Internet Services Corp.
> 
> 
> John Purser wrote:
> > 
> > Andu,
> > 
> > On the surface, I'd agree with you.  I felt the same way when I first got
> > shot down for asking questions on the newbies list.  However there are other
> > concerns that the current policy supports.  The idea is that all questions
> > are asked and hopefully answered in one forum.  This means the powers that
> > be can monitor one list for problems and archive searches can be done on the
> > same list to access all previous questions and answers.
> > 
> > At least that's my understanding.
> > 
> > I agree with you that as a newbie I'm pretty much just a bundle of
> > unanswered questions.  If I can't ask them on newbies then what do I do
> > there?  Answer: Not much.  Other newbies seem to have found out the same
> > thing.  The only letters I know I've received from the newbies list is Sue's
> > monthly letter on how to use the newbies list!
> > 
> > So subscribe to questions and any other lists you're interested in.  There
> > are a lot of other newbies listening in so go ahead and express your
> > ignorance and live with the consequences.  Somebody else will have asked a
> > sillier question last week and I guarantee there's an even sillier one
> > coming.
> > 
> > Like my next one for instance!
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > 
> > John Purser
> > 
> > Currently boycotting Amazon.com
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG
> > [mailto:owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of andu
> > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 5:46 PM
> > To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG
> > Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit
> > 
> > On Fri, 03 Mar 2000, Sue Blake wrote:
> > 
> > I'm sure this is meant to help and keep things in order but to me it sounds
> > a
> > little like over medication.
> > A newbie asks questions to get something going, to
> > have some motivation to go on.
> > 
> > > FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit
> > >
> > >    (This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list.
> > >    It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/)
> > >
> > >    FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about
> > >    installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests
> > >    are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions.
> > >
> > >    FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to
> > >    questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies.
> > >
> > >    FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and
> > >    covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt
> > >    with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on
> > >    our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how
> > >    to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to
> > >    use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories,
> > >    moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the
> > >    FreeBSD community.
> > 
> > I find it rather absurd to have a list where I can ask where I can ask for
> > help.
> > I asked my question, I got a good answer, others benefited too and that's
> > the
> > end of the story. I find it hard to believe that a FreeBsd beginner joins a
> > list
> > just to hang out with other newbies.
> > 
> > >We take our problems and support questions to
> > >    freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are
> > >    doing the same things that we do as newbies.
> > >
> > >    One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find
> > >    help when we need it. Here are some suggestions:
> > >
> > > When something doesn't work the way you expect
> > >
> > >     1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at
> > >        http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and
> > >        security advisories.
> > >     2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at
> > >        http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html
> > >     3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of
> > >        `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question
> > >        to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG.
> > >
> > > Mailing lists
> > >
> > >    When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only
> > >    one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG.
> > >    FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as
> > >    more general and advanced questions.
> > >
> > >    You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a
> > >    question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you
> > >    personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and
> > >    followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them
> > >    different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to
> > >    freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the
> > >    recent questions and their answers.
> > >
> > >    Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at
> > >    http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer
> > >    FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when
> > >    they get questions which are difficult to understand.
> > >    http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too.
> > >
> > >    If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and
> > >    ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to
> > >    the support mailing list.
> > >
> > >    Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing
> > >    list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might
> > >    get the answer right away. It's always worth trying.
> > >
> > >    Other mailing lists
> > >    (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS)
> > >    cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll
> > >    need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's
> > >    probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for
> > >    advice about where to post a more specialised question.
> > >
> > >    FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional
> > >    announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick
> > >    Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too.
> > >
> > > Manuals
> > >
> > >    You'll always be expected to show that you have made some effort to
> > >    use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not
> > >    always as easy as it sounds!
> > >
> > >    If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a
> > >    brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need,
> > >    always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you
> > >    do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction.
> > >
> > >    Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is
> > >    encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at
> > >    http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html
> > >
> > > Other resources
> > >
> > >    A resource list is available at
> > >    http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and
> > >    inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It
> > >    includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web
> > >    pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a
> > >    suggestion for good material to be included, please write to
> > >    freebsd-newbies and tell us about it.
> > >
> > > But I have seen people asking questions here!
> > >
> > >    It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a
> > >    mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from
> > >    time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't
> > >    belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose
> > >    job it is to sort these problems out privately.
> > >
> > >    The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It
> > >    is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies
> > >    so we all make mistakes. That's OK.
> > >
> > >    One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions,
> > >    believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies,
> > >    not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the
> > >    situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to
> > >    redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently.
> > >    There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either.
> > >
> > >    So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions
> > >    as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies
> > >    can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on
> > >    our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not
> > >    allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the
> > >    mistakes that we need to make in order to learn.
> > 
> > --
> > Regards, Andu
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message

warm regards

jonathan

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