Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:12:12 -0600 From: Brandon helsley <brandon.helsley@hotmail.com> To: Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de>, Donald Wilde <dwilde1@gmail.com> Cc: Robert Huff <roberthuff@rcn.com>, Kurt Hackenberg <kh@panix.com>, freebsd-questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Minimal skills Message-ID: <CY4PR19MB01041612888413C46D9F6D81F9860@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de> <CY4PR19MB01041DACEFFEF08ADB096BC3F9890@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CY4PR19MB0104DC7541A2154B5C435EA7F9890@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <CY4PR19MB0104A2C03F4D66A1DA251A23F9880@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <CY4PR19MB0104C290121BF756D57B2DDBF9880@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <CY4PR19MB0104DD86F8FE6446AD1BF327F9890@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CY4PR19MB0104145694B8484F3AC9FB7EF9860@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <f05a51b4-88ad-c6f0-4f0f-988a6ad04e42@panix.com> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605141422.0c2fab21.freebsd@edvax.de>
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>For a first-language choice, I like Ruby because it is so elegant and it is fully OO. Ruby, C, and python are my best bet for learning programming? Do C and Ruby have a GUI like python does? > > On Jun 5, 2020 at 9:52 AM, Donald Wilde <dwilde1@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 6/5/20, Polytropon edvax.de> wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:05:33 -0400, Robert Huff wrote: >> >> Kurt Hackenberg writes: >> >> > I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if >> > you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also >> > an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer >> > language. >> >> I am now accepting rhetorical nominations for a useful >> programming language better suited for teaching a beginning programmer >> of at least average intelligence. At the moment the only other >> candidate is Pascal, beloved on account of its vast code >> base. FWIW, Java has become a really bad choice. Not only is Oracle requiring licenses for commercial development, Java8 is very, very majorly different than Java7. Architect of a project I was on (the same one I referenced earlier): "We should use Java. There are lots of Java programmers out there!" Me: "There are lots of Java program mers out there because you _need_ lots of them to get anything done and the stack is always breaking!" For a first-language choice, I like Ruby because it is so elegant and it is fully OO. That said, the commercial world in the US does not agree with me and they want everybody to use Python(3), which, while fully supported by amazing libraries (many of which find their way to Ruby very quickly), is a very ugly SOB that to me is Perl5's much uglier cousin. I have come back to C++ as my language of choice for professional code crafting. It is a terrible first language to learn OOP, but it is fast and sufficiently obfuscateable (pImpl, etc.) that you can protect your source as a trade secret rather than needing to expose it all with a patent. I am beginning to explore the LLVM-based CLANG as a C++ variant because it stands a chance if becoming the go-to Grail of "write once, run everywhere" although system and GUI interface libraries still need to be refined further for that to be compl etely the case. > Speaking from my own terrible experience, Pascal is a > collection of things you need to unlearn when you start > understanding what _really_ happens. :-) > Oh, I thought that was ada... :D -- Don Wilde **************************************************** * What is the Internet of Things but a system * * of systems including humans? * **************************************************** _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jun 5 17:36:57 2020 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB3233256C for <freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org>; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:36:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49dqZw2YW3z4NK2 for <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 17:36:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.231] (unknown [172.58.140.2]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 79C104E655; Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:36:50 -0500 (CDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Subject: Re: Minimal skills From: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <20200605164904.b9680919301654708563a3df@sohara.org> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:36:48 -0500 Cc: Robert Huff <roberthuff@rcn.com>, Kurt Hackenberg <kh@panix.com>, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <730F9883-3A49-41A0-BD87-28CCC25040F9@kicp.uchicago.edu> References: <CY4PR19MB01041DACEFFEF08ADB096BC3F9890@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CY4PR19MB0104DC7541A2154B5C435EA7F9890@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <20200604074134.89eb6518.freebsd@edvax.de> <CY4PR19MB0104A2C03F4D66A1DA251A23F9880@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <20200604005859.ca438474.freebsd@edvax.de> <CY4PR19MB0104C290121BF756D57B2DDBF9880@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <20200604020051.0c02472d.freebsd@edvax.de> <CY4PR19MB0104DD86F8FE6446AD1BF327F9890@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CY4PR19MB0104145694B8484F3AC9FB7EF9860@CY4PR19MB0104.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <f05a51b4-88ad-c6f0-4f0f-988a6ad04e42@panix.com> <24282.13581.526482.840608@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <20200605164904.b9680919301654708563a3df@sohara.org> To: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49dqZw2YW3z4NK2 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.18 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[172.58.140.2:received]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.48)[0.478]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.56)[-0.557]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.70)[-0.697]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions <freebsd-questions.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/options/freebsd-questions>, <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/>; List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions>, <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 17:36:57 -0000 > On Jun 5, 2020, at 10:49 AM, Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> = wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 5 Jun 2020 08:05:33 -0400 > Robert Huff <roberthuff@rcn.com> wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> Kurt Hackenberg writes: >>=20 >>> I guess you could start with C, and maybe add C++ later. That's if >>> you want to learn to program, which is a big project. There's also >>> an argument that a beginning programmer should learn some newer >>> language. >>=20 >> I am now accepting rhetorical nominations for a useful >> programming language better suited for teaching a beginning = programmer >> of at least average intelligence. At the moment the only other >> candidate is Pascal, <sarcasm>beloved on account of its vast code >> base</sarcasm>.=20 >=20 > Python - it's clean, enforces decent structure, is available > everywhere and provides an interactive environment which is great for > learning and experimenting in. Oh and it *does* have a vast code base = and a > lot of active users, online resources up the whazoo not least being = the > Raspberry Pi foundation when it comes to beginner programming. >=20 I can not pass on that. Python, being great language for my researchers = to use, has its specifics. I usually tell my users: python is a sneaky = snake. Meaning: python itself paces fast, changing its internals. = Whatever modules written by others you use, will be peaky about specific = version of python, namely, once module developer stops modifying module = for new releases when minor (not even major!) version of python changes, = pretty soon such module will not work in newer - latest - version of = python, getting you stuck with older python, potentially with security = vulnerabilities. In other words python based server software may be real = nightmare for sysadmin (mailman 2 was the only example of not being such = I know of). The only nastier in that respect that comes to my mind is = ruby [with =E2=80=9Cgems=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Crails=E2=80=9D and friends = ;-) Just my 2 cents. Valeri > --=20 > Steve O'Hara-Smith <steve@sohara.org> > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
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