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Date:      Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:34:09 -0400
From:      Jerry <>
Subject:   Re: installing freebsd on windows
Message-ID:  <20090328143409.29a27078@scorpio>
In-Reply-To: <>
References:  <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <20090327083131.59204048@scorpio> <> <20090328083932.6d2ad3d3@scorpio> <>

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On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 15:49:48 +0000
Frank Shute <> wrote:

>> Virtual desktops. What are you referring to? Visit the power toys URL
>> for further information.
>Thanks for that. Did they use to be called PowerTools? I downloaded
>them a few years ago but it didn't come with virtual desktops.=20

I don't remember. Maybe. They have had virtual desktops for years
>> >Why do I have to Google the info? Shouldn't there be a copy of the
>> >info locally?
>> Not necessarily. Many people don't want to clutter up their system
>> with documentation that they will never use. I certainly don't. If I
>> actually need an obscure bit of information, I can always obtain it.

>And when your 'net connection is down, then you can obtain it?

>I maintain the Handbook locally. It's no effort and can save my bacon
>for whenever I don't have 'net access.

If the connection is down, I am probably NOT using the PC. Hell, if the
power is out for more than 30 minutes, my UPS is dead so I am most
definitely not using the machine.=20

>> >I can google for unbroken filemanagers, documented shells, install
>> >cygwin etc. but the software as it stands is horribly inadequate and
>> >undocumented.

>> In your opinion. I never have a problem finding what I am looking
>> for.

>> >You can read the source can you? I can't.

>> If you are referring to the source code; well that is obvious. If
>> something else, then what? People get paid to develop the software.
>> If they gave it away, they would not make a living, the unemployment
>> lines would swell, and crime would increase. Now, if you don't
>> believe in a capitalistic system of free enterprise, please come
>> over and paint my house this weekend. I promise not to insult you by
>> offering to pay you.

>You've fallen hook, line & sinker for the broken windows fallacy.

>I support free software with a subscription to TUG. It's not my job to
>keep software developers in employment though.

I am strong believer in the free enterprise system. It is certainly not
your responsibility to keep anyone employed. Use whatever you want.

>> >Maybe I'm just getting old but Vista documentation seems to be
>> >scattered to hell and west over the 'net - if you can find what
>> >you're looking for at all.
>> Yes, it is fragmented. The simple fact that there is so much
>> information is the cause, not the problem.
>It maybe the cause but it's also a problem. There should be one page
>on for each of their OSes where one can start looking
>for info.

Are you joking? There all ready is. There is a home page for each of
their major products. From there you can pretty much wander anywhere
you want. I find it beyond belief that you cannot find one.

>For instance, I did a search for "cmd.exe commands" on Google and it
>didn't return a useful page from on the first page.
>That's weak. What's even weaker is that cmd.exe isn't described in any
>of the local documentation on Vista/XP.

1) That is a Google limitation.

On WinXP
2) <START> <Help and Support>
   type: cmd.exe into the search box

Honestly, have you actually tried? Honestly, that is pretty pathetic.

>> Did you actually install the 'Power Shell?' I assume that is what you
>> are talking about. Read the 'Getting Started" pages. I just installed
>> it and there is a wealth of information there. Certainly enough to
>> get started with.
>I was talking about cmd.exe. That's the shell on Windows isn't it?

I don't know. It is your system, you tell me.

>I thought Powershell shipped with my version of Vista (business) but I
>guess I was wrong.

You are incorrect. At least it did not ship with the original version of
Vista. That, like everything else, is subject to change.

>> BTW, many people consider 'man' to be an acronym for "Much About
>> Nothing". Therein lies the reason that O'Reilly has make a fortune
>> distributing 'How-To' books.
>I own a shelf full of O'Reilly books. If I get my softs for free, I
>don't mind paying for extra documentation.

I have a whole wall in my office filled with mostly O'Reilly books
dealing with everything from Postfix, Sendmail, etc. to common tasks
like Regular Expressions, Sed & Awk, ad-infinitum. Contrary to you
statement, the 'man' for most products, commands, etc. is usually quite
weak. Hence the acronym I previously described. At best it only touches
the surface. There are a few exceptions, but they are few and far

>When I pay for software, I expect it to be thoroughly documented (=C3=A0 la
>AutoCAD with a big thick manual).

IBM did a study approximately 10 years ago regarding software
documentation included with the software. They found what most users all
ready knew; most end users NEVER read the documentation. They either use
on-line help or telephone support. IBM, Microsoft and most other major
software publishers saved millions by discarding what the end user was
all ready discarding; i.e. the MANUAL. Norton I believe is still one of
the few that produces a fairly concise instruction manual, although I
have not used them in five years either.

>> >I'm looking for an OS with a sane file hierarchy and a shell I can
>> >use to manage the files therein. An editor better than Notepad
>> >would be a bonus too.

Then download one. There are dozens of free ones available. I use PSPad
myself. By the way, what is the default for FBSD? I thought it was
"ee", a real powerhouse. I am not sure; but does anyone actually use
that program? BTW, XP and maybe Vista come with 'wordpad'. Not exactly
a powerhouse, but it is free and more versatile that Notepad.

>> >I've searched on google for documentation on the powershell to no
>> >avail. All the docs as such seem to be available if you are a member
>> >of MSDN - I presume so anyway, but for the general public they don't
>> >seem to be readily available.
>> Obviously, you have not installed the shell. Besides the info
>> included with the program, you might want to check out the following
>> URL. It should answer most of your immediate questions. I also
>> question you 'search' ability. I don't seem to be having any problem
>> finding gratuitous amounts of documentation.
>User guide in rtf and docs in txt. Laughable.

It is available. You falsely claimed it was not available. The format
would obviously fit what Microsoft uses. I would not expect them to
use Latex anymore than I would expect FBSD to publish in a 'doc'
format. If I visit a Arabic site, I would expect it to be written in
Arabic. Does that mean they are idiots? (Well maybe, but that is
another story)

>> >In short, I gave Vista a decent shot (I quite like XP) but it was
>> >like wading through treacle and I thought that if I am to get the
>> >best out of it, I'm probably going to have to sign up for MSDN and
>> >download vast amounts of "missing" software and spend inordinate
>> >amounts of time on google.=20
>> Yes, it is commonly referred to as a 'learning curve' Personally,
>> anyone who cannot handle a Win32 machine has serous problems. Six
>> year old kids gleefully manipulate a PC without problems. I know
>> several 7 & 8 year old kids running MS Office without any difficulty
>> at all. It all depends on how motivated you are.
>Can they manipulate their files & dirs with the Vista file manager?

Yes. Exactly what is it that you are unable to do?

>Nobody's pointed out docs for the aforesaid file manager yet.

There is documentation under the 'Help' system. You have not stated
what it is you are looking for, so helping you is beyond the scope of
my crystal ball.

>> Conversely, I know many individuals who just plain gave up tying to
>> run a *.nix system because they could not get a device to work, or
>> locate a driver, or find a support mechanism that was suitable for
>> them purposes. Things like FLASH have always been problematic on
>> FreeBSD.

Now why don't you post a nice, concise list of problems you are
allegedly experiencing as opposed to a rambling condemnation of a
product you claim to not even be using.


I believe a little incompatibility is the spice of life,
particularly if he has income and she is pattable.

	Ogden Nash

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