From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Oct 15 06:06:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9AB433F18 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 06:06:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mail.foucry.net (mail.foucry.net [IPv6:2a01:4f9:4a:1fd8::17]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CBf1Z5D51z43B1 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 06:06:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mail.foucry.net (unknown [192.168.12.17]) by mail.foucry.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E5E1C884 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 06:06:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at foucry.net Received: from mail.foucry.net ([192.168.12.17]) by mail.foucry.net (mail.foucry.net [192.168.12.17]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rr4DbcEyFMdN for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 06:06:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail.foucry.net (Postfix, from userid 58) id 97B501C864; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 06:06:19 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=foucry.net; s=dkim; t=1602741979; bh=hsQ5wHT1HtLXElnVY91ExpDkhMno6tKkRoTnq0t5YJ4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=niOdfOi419oc+91ApzrDFO6sCLnbraD3N8uPYg1R+50ycg7MxhUNtaC+3m8Edoipj AXuBqjsyJ6waqeNldL64mBua+nvi4DxBdh9Kpjc72ddkLPRN9TaQgMCYjC5gueqsV6 s/KyIUi335ccHFJN41lBQMZCVv8OVvUL2cp2SJ5c= Received: from mithril.localdomain (unknown [37.171.24.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.foucry.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B37E01C85C; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 06:06:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=foucry.net; s=dkim; t=1602741977; bh=hsQ5wHT1HtLXElnVY91ExpDkhMno6tKkRoTnq0t5YJ4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=Zz9U5ht9Pfjc5BiFwh/HzyDSlWYoE8z2EobGJDktEXjiYiCthfQHcJE7cad9cqIAa IWsL3FyOYO0DD1eu1KqM40pHXCGuoJMQYTzL8aP8jx477aAq+hZIPkPqEIxvv2kIzy CjgGpuEJ0JvwdCo8r4kmqJkBE6setoh/8brEB95c= Received: from mithril (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7F1190E2; Thu, 15 Oct 2020 08:06:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 08:06:15 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A couple of questions about SSDs Message-ID: <20201015060615.GJ22063@mithril> Mail-Followup-To: Ralf Mardorf , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20201014121442.662e71c4@archlinux> <20201014174749.6df7572a.freebsd@edvax.de> <20201014202206.7c7886d0@archlinux> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20201014202206.7c7886d0@archlinux> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4CBf1Z5D51z43B1 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=foucry.net header.s=dkim header.b=niOdfOi4; dkim=pass header.d=foucry.net header.s=dkim header.b=Zz9U5ht9; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=foucry.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jacques@foucry.net designates 2a01:4f9:4a:1fd8::17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jacques@foucry.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.36 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[foucry.net:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.984]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[foucry.net:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[foucry.net,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.874]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/29, country:DE]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[37.171.24.114:received] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 06:06:43 -0000 Le mercredi 14 oct. 2020 à 20:22:06 (+0200), Ralf Mardorf à écrit: > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:47:49 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > >My guess (and it's really just a guess due to my personal lack > >of any important data and experience) is that the SSD will work > >until it is replaced by a bigger one, or the whole system it is > >installed in will be replaced with a faster one. So there is > >nothing to worry about. If you _really_ want to worry about > >something, ask the manufacturer if they made the firmware brick > >the whole thing when a certain write count is reached so you > >cannot even _read_ your data anymore. :-) > > In my desktop PC are 5 SSDs. Four are connected to the mobos SATA 3 > connectors and one is connected to a SATA 2 connector. Four are 223.57 > GiB sized and one is 447.13 GiB sized. I'm to lazy to check how old > each of them is, but IIRC the oldest is around 3½ years old and the > vendor's software mentions that the "health" is at 64%, the system > drive is one of the newer SSDs, maybe around 2 years old, "health" 57%. > > In my experiences HDDs last for around 2 years, if you turn the computer > on and off very often and for around 7 years, if the computer runs more > or less 24/7. It depends on several factors ;). I don't know for how > long external backup and archive HDDs do last. Probably for way longer > than 7 years. > > However, my guess is, due to a lack of experiences with SSDs, that they > last for as long as HDDs do last. However, I suspect I will replace one > by another with more sized SSDs already before they fail. > > I became a digital photographer a few weeks ago and noticed, that I > was mistaken a while ago, when we talked about storage space. Nowadays I > tend to make one or two photos more, than I've done, when I needed to > pay for 35 mm film ;). > > Due to a lack of money, I put together two new 2 external 2 TB HDDs > with USB enclosures, to reorganize my current internal SSDs and my > current external backup and archive HDDs. Btw. I've done this today. > > As soon as I've got enough money again, I will get also more external > storage space. Maybe I'll continue using USB (/eSATA) enclosures, maybe > I'll get a swap bay. I've got no experiences with NAS. It seems to be > too expensive. However, a starting point would be to replace my 1 and 2 > TB external HDDs with 4 TB HDDs. The used enclosures are suitable for > HDDs up to 4 TB. > > >As long as the light switch doesn't suddenly shout "I've been > >used 1500 times now, I'm kaputt, please buy a new one!" everything > >should be okay within the limits of reality. > > If my SSDs should do this after 4 or 7 years, I could accept it. Btw. > my iPad 2 is way older than 3 years and the internal 32 TB > drive was used to it's limits, but still works. My new iPad has a build > in 1 TB drive for good reasons. > > >For the case of using lots of "throwaway files" (i. e. stuff you > >only need as files during ports builds), you can always use a > >RAM disk, if your system has enough RAM. And swap space that you > >don't write to doesn't add any wear. > > FreeBSD might work better, maybe the Linux of other users does, too. If > I exceed tmpfs size with my Linux, when building packages, swap isn't > used. Build aborts with a "no space left on device" error. > > >> What exactly makes you think, that SSDs need gentle treatment? > > > >It's probably the limit on write cycles, but I'm not sure how > >this compares to general lifetime calculations compared to > >regular hard disks... > > Neither do I, but it seems likely that they last as long, as HDDs do. > Most file systems are ext4 (on the old HDDs it probably was ext3), > journaling enabled, some use relatime, some use noatime. The noatime > option isn't used to reduce write cycles of a SSD, it's a leftover from > the times when my computers used HDDs for audio production and should > help to achieve better performance. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I use a SSD on my latptop (1TB) わith 8GB of swap, 256K used. For my Backup and other services I use a HP Proliant Micre server Gen10 with FreeNAS and a jail with nextcloud. It work like a charm! My NAS run with 4 disks, 2 of 3TB in mirror and 2 of 8TB in mirror two. The freenas-boot zpool is on a USB key mirrored (64G each with is to big). Just for information. Have a nice day! -- Jacques Foucry