From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sat Aug 25 10:44:03 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12E41085EE5 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 10:44:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: from mail-it0-x22b.google.com (mail-it0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FBCA93188 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 10:44:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gurenchan@gmail.com) Received: by mail-it0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id h20-v6so5023098itf.2 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 03:44:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eakQBjgtt3KBcOmL333K7I0hZGh1CPTRPMRqIig2LcM=; b=hBRoECGZrnKr5acvBXb19x1Whm4B6E5sq6sss8YArFUR1Ek2ZMS1g2fhYi63Vygczo X08Nq3ntxodykWiVZbD5CiQ7Kbifx30kMq5UUdTjS3cJ3vjTVfKuek0JTrCypHwfpZI8 ZGKTQ4xwyz/Cr20TrSkC60KrVSKS17I7RtKvxI/CjooYAgfhGJZxSVt0fgb4eREPUr1N joWD6w8+Z/jk7UMRFBdyZMcrMgnVDzXcHxMdwP+diKrRiksh/X0jmhROCmq5ERejK/nC THRvXKCCl3Muip9RejEZmTuPc2jufeLEh0kqMDNb+2FrHABRMVwBWySqHx6JICLsm2SQ aSOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eakQBjgtt3KBcOmL333K7I0hZGh1CPTRPMRqIig2LcM=; b=BiEOSORm+mcY5lA4pC2t37/5rVlO5TesZFD5BnB9hMxF3zBjszc7/1CX5elzW+qcRj 27SJTZKwah4udllWUBTWq+e7ewb8KjgRPaE/U09kWrfnBBL69hzgjS/+Dy0GEqB91JB5 jvbjJNBTJsy2iMSpW3u8xxUsN8HUJeB2hB+Q3Q79bZeyN76sC4qtO5ramwolfVNt4SOZ JUZIPuOVoSyMM2zp+MuhKI3UbFdYuHXIXJFjHp1cueHNeivlnTPIltDDEZ35ZJC9Z2c4 7WUrlOj56ayPDBykJg6lgV23X3ks6pBvSDlneZXrGY1fxgGDl1bAypDsihRzhjRUoKqh Wlzw== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51D3ISxkaKmU86nsNhojKMGpPlPGLt5XUAI807ITYtJVraw5As+A RJGNqo2toC0UBLvbXEBsj7sil+JCN5Z8xmzCAK9VFzK5O00= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0Vdb08Q4T86eHsKDPfP39ohcriRTnzDh7seytah38omxm0yuTYJVxYVEGkgnpV22Yxo1DkVGEDOJka343aUtH5dw= X-Received: by 2002:a24:7f94:: with SMTP id r142-v6mr1111264itc.137.1535193842329; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 03:44:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180824215302.ivfna55jtrtc5trg@freebsd480.station> <20180825090623.GA1342@ptrace.hagen.corp> In-Reply-To: <20180825090623.GA1342@ptrace.hagen.corp> From: blubee blubeeme Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:43:50 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: drm / drm2 removal in 12 To: sh+freebsd-current@codevoid.de Cc: FreeBSD current Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 10:44:03 -0000 On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:09 PM Stefan Hagen wrote: > blubee blubeeme wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 7:43 AM Kris Moore wrote: > >> I've been personally using the new DRM bits since almost day one. I > >> haven't found it to be unstable in the slightest. Compared to not > >> having it and being forced to run 5+ year old hardware, it's been a > >> huge blessing for those of us who care about running FreeBSD as a > >> modern desktop / laptop. > >> > >> FreeBSD being an open source project, you are welcome to contribute > >> back your work anytime. But since I don't imagine we'll see that > >> patch coming anytime soon, I'll stick with this new LinuxKPI-powered, > >> Plasma-desktop running awesomeness. > >> > >> (Written from my brand new Lenovo P71 which worked flawlessly out of > >> box) > > > > Please tell me more about you're modern hardware, Kris Vice President > > of Engineering at iXsystems. > > > > Try asking a person who doesn't run server infrastructure software and > > hardware to get that stuff up and running, would you? > > Do you want to ask me? I'm mostly a private individual and linux/debian > user that got fed up with the Linux fragmentation and direction of > development (from a user perspective). I found my new home in FreeBSD. > I migrated my (hobby) root server and have a few jails up and running > and doing random stuff on them for myself and friends. > > Key to this was that I was able to get FreeBSD up and running on my > Laptop - with the drm-next kmod - and use it daily to get used to it and > learn about it. Actually it was a pain in the ass because back then I > had to learn how to make -current run and even worse, I had to use the > drm-next graphics branch from a github repository which wasn't even > on the main FreeBSD account. I was forced to update the kernel every > once in a while because the pkg update would complain otherwise. It > frequently broke and I had to deal with it and learn how to recover it. > > The alternative would have been to go back to Linux, which has a whole > lot more to complain about. So I stayed. And I'm happy with it. > > I accepted all this trouble to have decent graphics support. In all > the time I had to fight -current issues a lot more than anything > drm/graphics related. This stuff was always stable for me. > > I saw a few people trying out FreeBSD. And the first thing after the > Installation is always: Graphics and Wifi. That's what people need. > > These are "desktop needs", where supporting new hardware fast is more > important than being rock stable and feature complete. > > Just my 2 cents, > Stefan > > -- > Stefan Hagen > Mail: sh@codevoid.de | encryption key in header. > gopher://codevoid.de | https://codevoid.de > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Like you said you're doing hobby work, that's fine. Take the time to test that bleeding edge stuff on a branch somewhere. You guys cannot expect reasonable people who have machines running production code to have to deal with that type of nonsense that you just described. You left Linux because it's an unorganized mess, FreeBSD is not Linux. There are clear rules and restrictions if you guys cannot understand this then this is just a waste of time. FreeBSD is server first and while that may suck for hobbyist at first, once you understand that people who run servers do not care about graphics as much as hobbyist do they need a reliable core. The linuxkpi stuff the total antithesis of what I understand to be the FreeBSD philosophy. Try reading it again: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/nutshell.html You guys can't expect to destroy the stability for everyone because a few hobbyist who volunteer in their free time want to wreck the system. Work on your code to improve the quality instead of trying to turn the FreeBSD kernel into a thin wrapper around Linux kernel. Solve the engineering problems instead of asking for quick fix solutions. Any of you linuxkpi guys who are pushing this, what will be enough? Haven't you guys gotten enough leeway from the core team? How many breaking changes do you want to introduce to the FreeBSD kernel vs engineering your software to work well within the existing infrastructure? Which one of you guys dare to stand up and define a goal?