From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat May 9 15:32:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6752ED0BF for ; Sat, 9 May 2020 15:32:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49KB5c4knZz3yXl for ; Sat, 9 May 2020 15:32:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.203.2]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue012 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M6H7o-1jVFbm260G-006i0O for ; Sat, 09 May 2020 17:32:18 +0200 Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 17:32:18 +0200 From: Polytropon To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft Teams for Linux Message-Id: <20200509173218.7c1bec97.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200509085553.00006a3a@seibercom.net> References: <20200505093624.00001df2@seibercom.net> <223da1b3-a83d-b2e8-36dc-468dcb219305@suszko.eu> <20200508113438.00006adc@seibercom.net> <20200508185327.00007397@seibercom.net> <20200509063222.94d762e9751a32c693d73d2f@sohara.org> <20200509062517.00002c46@seibercom.net> <20200509121604.b385c38e8ad5518c9a571ef2@sohara.org> <20200509135024.d3ace507.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200509085553.00006a3a@seibercom.net> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:XJwbHN9H5GoGv1qKuEoz7nPA0mz7cz7Xw+QlYRMk5C8HC9+i/oK LsjC5fvtSBWMYIDQ8oQo9FkOFrpyB+7NnGnK0HWjxeMpKUsYDClRdIpR0xPoYXPG0wE6eI2 iel09DNvgkykHPeA8EdOvm+AVd7fi4mHAIwzwtEKTCYp5StYMx1JSa06H6NKREhYhVtbPjd SGqJ9zp83J1SJoQ2jn3Cg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:XftMbfLnycg=:0e+xSj7NGYVIc3cXNf9nrC 0fRU6P8mJ2B6f9HHgiYTGvLn/X6/X3BdNChtWk9dNU0RgttdqONwfu1hNeL1g/N6g9L7bNUHA QRtQyXJ1yOELWRIgxgKuu9r45aQvlvpFwu8Pyk/IYgcdCFW9KIq6avOSZ1MHWoRzORXYxeJyt 5Grfqp8TJ0us7/I4ED12gZXsDXBUnKB9ze/h/hpNHm7o5/CSykB1lxQ1ZX4QO2pdQr+s9uHd6 VE1MRQf6D2WgeN5Ez3aN+zlRHSB+Tb4NcSUQL7ZyG+f/1WAnnP5qfUo5PpItaPyPoD01eRYBF U9ip/Wo5QTHCAu7VEQMXrEFfBCcHtlS5kuBNVrQD+7fmF/Q1m45ku2Oizg8XgBkf09zxkbjHr qL+EBhSVd12Ve6jiCAjiAVTOplv7N86PtNBZhcDghshS7zd5xYDI3JjuXb/6U3NYUHeu8DiGO PF8PKuwnhR7Z4jSXLBBBTBCK4SG08kQLURF2IXO8SZVBoBhPv8OBApr1u5XRAAFjVplOifRNX pabUbT1YwKFLg/lTxS1B7cmm687zGQv1KygWW4GgcNC8rmhu7WcnoQr7znMe6I25mTkfPZ1RB 6dnBpHLaLlJtVzsv5Uj1m2tttG4VZuFvFozjVnUV+4GdasS4cbe5fb2mKeHaxw0s9YvVSKRWg m4JKJBs1StUGI52tGykspK9IZCNXsIdxbgxWl5CjbZYD2l439Nrk+jq561crADcnP/GhRejso /AqUSsbPPrgKdQGCP9TrjvzOflZReeQdrEvtcpJGQPzRg5k0kN+aYy2i2XhwsKqvNMg8Rn8y+ 1UNjRswTcbGfGwIMFfPNLknm+MKzP+GAZVzojvnqPDTtYd7KHZrb9F2/LnKjQ8ktjKkzqUs X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49KB5c4knZz3yXl X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.32 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 15:32:21 -0000 On Sat, 9 May 2020 08:55:53 -0400, Jerry wrote: > On Sat, 9 May 2020 13:50:24 +0200, Polytropon commented: > >On Sat, 9 May 2020 12:16:04 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >> On Sat, 9 May 2020 06:25:17 -0400 > >> Jerry wrote: > >> > >> > On Sat, 9 May 2020 06:32:22 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith commented: > >> > >On Fri, 8 May 2020 18:53:27 -0400 > >> > >Jerry wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Both "Zoom" and "MS Teams" are working fine in my Win10 > >> > >> machine. I have never tried to get them to work on FreeBSD, and > >> > >> I have no idea why I would want to. I don't have a linux > >> > >> machine handy, although that is on my "to-do" list. Perhaps by > >> > >> the end of this summer. > >> > > > >> > > One good reason for wanting them working on Linux or FreeBSD is > >> > > not owning a Windows machine. I don't, so if I wished to use > >> > > either of those tools it seems I would need to buy one or try > >> > > and get it to work on something else. > >> > > >> > You seem to be under some preconceived notion that your need to > >> > 'own' a Windows or other OS machine. You could run the > >> > application(s) in a VM. It is becoming ubiquitous from what I have > >> > observed. > >> > >> I still need to own a Windows license to do that - I do not. > >> > > > >You cannot own a license - you can be granted a license. Such a > >license can also be revoked, no matter how much you paid for it. > >In addition to a valid license, you typically need a registration > >for the use of the desired service. Depending on the service, this > >might include personal data you might not be willing to share with > >an untrusted third party (and their unknown partners) just for the > >sake of a video conference, such as name, date of birth, residence, > >banking information, who knows. That valuable data adds to the > >costs of licensing. > > In the cases of the software I use, the use of telemetry can be shutoff > or restricted to certain functions, like a program crash. It is always > wise to investigate exactly what information is being analyzed. As > always, it is my choice; no one is holding a gun to my head forcing me > to accept anything. > > >I fully agree with Jerry that trying to get certain software > >intended to be used with "Windows" exclusively to work on FreeBSD > >is, in most cases, not worth the time. A VM with a suitable "Windows" > >is often the best solution. Some software is so complex, and tied > >with the bowels of "Windows" so deeply that even with tools like > >wine it is not possible to get an acceptable result. The same > >applies for software that is run using a web browser: If it only > >supports one specific browser, use that browser, instead of trying > >to a get a different browser to to something that it is probably > >not able to do. Always keep in mind that the complexity of modern > >web browsers has reached (or maybe even surpassed) the complexity > >of whole operating systems - and this also seems to be true for > >their differences and incompatibilities, intended or not. > > I have never understood why in a day when there are numerous VMs > available, any sane person would resort to 'wine'. Wine is nothing more > than a pseudo Windows environment. If you are going to use Windows for a > specific purpose, then do it correctly and use a VM. Why? There are plenty of programs that work excellent with wine. For example, I have games installed that run with wine, and I'm happy I don't need a "Windows" installation to run them. Using wine's environment gets rid of a specific aspect, which you introduced: People intend to run programs (applications, apps, whatever you want to call them) in order to reach a certain goal. People do not, I repeat, do _not_ run operating systems out of a primary intention; they rather use them as a means to run the programs they want. And for the games mentioned, I don't want and don't need a "Windows" - wine is more than sufficient. There is no additional complexity or resource consumption of a VM, and I still get all benefits of the underlying UNIX OS without the need to "go into a golden cage" (the VM) where every inter- action, like copying files in / out, accessing network resources, or local hardware devices, requires additional configuration to some extent. > I also question why FreeBSD has never ported Google Chrome into its > ports system? Is this by design, a sort of product discrimination? I > know, Poly, "patches accepted". Isn't Chromium supposed to be the "free replacement" for Chrome? > I love FreeBSD for what it is good as. I run postfix, mysql, openldap, > and a few other utilities, but that is it. I cannot run a full desktop > on FreeBSD. Maybe you cannot, either by decision or by external causes. Others can. I do run FreeBSD as a desktop since version 4.0 and have never missed something I needed. > Whether it is KDE, Gnome or whatever, unless it is a totally > stripped down version, there are just too many things that don't work. I fully agree here. It usually takes some work to get them running on FreeBSD with the full set of features. Thi is, in my opinion, primarily due to the fact that they are intended for Linux, and the FreeBSD versions are ports of the Linux versions, which introduces problems mentioned before (non-interoperability, non-compatibility and such), so they rely on stuff long abandoned in Linux world, or something is hardwired with the Linux kernel that FreeBSD does not have an equivalent for. Technically speaking, it is not impossible (!), but you know that it requires time, and with time == money, it's an important consideration to make. So for specific cases, it's probably much easier to just take the appropriate Linux distribution and everything works, instead of trying to get 99.9% working on FreeBSD. For each task, use the best tool. There is no "one tool" that will do solve all tasks automatically. > The FreeBSD community has walled itself off from many computer > improvement due to its inability to adapt. If you only adapt, not invent, not step forward, you can only be as good as the leader, but you cannot be better. Being better is the natural enemy of being good. ;-) > Have fun Poly. I eagerly await the company line. As a non-native speaker, I have no idea what that means... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...