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Date:      Sat, 9 May 2020 17:32:18 +0200
From:      Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de>
To:        freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Microsoft Teams for Linux
Message-ID:  <20200509173218.7c1bec97.freebsd@edvax.de>
In-Reply-To: <20200509085553.00006a3a@seibercom.net>
References:  <b64d57e2-f4d7-7618-c711-6501a652a6ac@suszko.eu> <20200505093624.00001df2@seibercom.net> <223da1b3-a83d-b2e8-36dc-468dcb219305@suszko.eu> <db68d8c4-cf3e-5a2f-63d9-f16f0b4f9559@lidstrom.eu> <fecdd83b-2061-a6c0-f927-c380cbc2b500@suszko.eu> <a0828175-6f75-92c4-ab48-bfd395e1a91d@suszko.eu> <ce6fe689-777f-7285-3483-76fb73ea3e82@suszko.eu> <f3a86f00-7e81-ec9d-2f29-c4d9bc3e0094@lidstrom.eu> <b28e6141-04bc-4f66-93e3-658929500c0c@suszko.eu> <CAM8r67Boe0dQt+1T8rdoubxNKaeDCaQ5UkY1nThM8UahF=WU3g@mail.gmail.com> <20200508113438.00006adc@seibercom.net> <CAM8r67DqhC37qoU99iBXPvSZAVVPezPCfKipOD-2xiig95-0TA@mail.gmail.com> <20200508185327.00007397@seibercom.net> <20200509063222.94d762e9751a32c693d73d2f@sohara.org> <20200509062517.00002c46@seibercom.net> <20200509121604.b385c38e8ad5518c9a571ef2@sohara.org> <20200509135024.d3ace507.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200509085553.00006a3a@seibercom.net>

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On Sat, 9 May 2020 08:55:53 -0400, Jerry wrote:
> On Sat, 9 May 2020 13:50:24 +0200, Polytropon commented:
> >On Sat, 9 May 2020 12:16:04 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
> >> On Sat, 9 May 2020 06:25:17 -0400
> >> Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote:
> >>   
> >> > On Sat, 9 May 2020 06:32:22 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith commented:  
> >> > >On Fri, 8 May 2020 18:53:27 -0400
> >> > >Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote:
> >> > >  
> >> > >> Both "Zoom" and "MS Teams" are working fine in my Win10
> >> > >> machine. I have never tried to get them to work on FreeBSD, and
> >> > >> I have no idea why I would want to. I don't have a linux
> >> > >> machine handy, although that is on my "to-do" list. Perhaps by
> >> > >> the end of this summer.    
> >> > >
> >> > > One good reason for wanting them working on Linux or FreeBSD is
> >> > > not owning a Windows machine. I don't, so if I wished to use
> >> > > either of those tools it seems I would need to buy one or try
> >> > > and get it to work on something else.  
> >> > 
> >> > You seem to be under some preconceived notion that your need to
> >> > 'own' a Windows or other OS machine. You could run the
> >> > application(s) in a VM. It is becoming ubiquitous from what I have
> >> > observed.  
> >> 
> >> 	I still need to own a Windows license to do that - I do not.
> >>  
> >
> >You cannot own a license - you can be granted a license. Such a
> >license can also be revoked, no matter how much you paid for it.
> >In addition to a valid license, you typically need a registration
> >for the use of the desired service. Depending on the service, this
> >might include personal data you might not be willing to share with
> >an untrusted third party (and their unknown partners) just for the
> >sake of a video conference, such as name, date of birth, residence,
> >banking information, who knows. That valuable data adds to the
> >costs of licensing.
> 
> In the cases of the software I use, the use of telemetry can be shutoff
> or restricted to certain functions, like a program crash. It is always
> wise to investigate exactly what information is being analyzed. As
> always, it is my choice; no one is holding a gun to my head forcing me
> to accept anything.
> 
> >I fully agree with Jerry that trying to get certain software
> >intended to be used with "Windows" exclusively to work on FreeBSD
> >is, in most cases, not worth the time. A VM with a suitable "Windows"
> >is often the best solution. Some software is so complex, and tied
> >with the bowels of "Windows" so deeply that even with tools like
> >wine it is not possible to get an acceptable result. The same
> >applies for software that is run using a web browser: If it only
> >supports one specific browser, use that browser, instead of trying
> >to a get a different browser to to something that it is probably
> >not able to do. Always keep in mind that the complexity of modern
> >web browsers has reached (or maybe even surpassed) the complexity
> >of whole operating systems - and this also seems to be true for
> >their differences and incompatibilities, intended or not.
> 
> I have never understood why in a day when there are numerous VMs
> available, any sane person would resort to 'wine'. Wine is nothing more
> than a pseudo Windows environment. If you are going to use Windows for a
> specific purpose, then do it correctly and use a VM.

Why? There are plenty of programs that work excellent with wine.
For example, I have games installed that run with wine, and I'm
happy I don't need a "Windows" installation to run them. Using
wine's environment gets rid of a specific aspect, which you
introduced: People intend to run programs (applications, apps,
whatever you want to call them) in order to reach a certain goal.
People do not, I repeat, do _not_ run operating systems out of
a primary intention; they rather use them as a means to run the
programs they want. And for the games mentioned, I don't want
and don't need a "Windows" - wine is more than sufficient. There
is no additional complexity or resource consumption of a VM,
and I still get all benefits of the underlying UNIX OS without
the need to "go into a golden cage" (the VM) where every inter-
action, like copying files in / out, accessing network resources,
or local hardware devices, requires additional configuration to
some extent.



> I also question why FreeBSD has never ported Google Chrome into its
> ports system? Is this by design, a sort of product discrimination? I
> know, Poly, "patches accepted".

Isn't Chromium supposed to be the "free replacement" for Chrome?



> I love FreeBSD for what it is good as. I run postfix, mysql, openldap,
> and a few other utilities, but that is it. I cannot run a full desktop
> on FreeBSD.

Maybe you cannot, either by decision or by external causes.
Others can. I do run FreeBSD as a desktop since version 4.0
and have never missed something I needed.



> Whether it is KDE, Gnome or whatever, unless it is a totally
> stripped down version, there are just too many things that don't work.

I fully agree here. It usually takes some work to get them
running on FreeBSD with the full set of features. Thi is,
in my opinion, primarily due to the fact that they are
intended for Linux, and the FreeBSD versions are ports of
the Linux versions, which introduces problems mentioned
before (non-interoperability, non-compatibility and such),
so they rely on stuff long abandoned in Linux world, or
something is hardwired with the Linux kernel that FreeBSD
does not have an equivalent for.

Technically speaking, it is not impossible (!), but you know
that it requires time, and with time == money, it's an
important consideration to make. So for specific cases, it's
probably much easier to just take the appropriate Linux
distribution and everything works, instead of trying to
get 99.9% working on FreeBSD.

For each task, use the best tool. There is no "one tool" that
will do solve all tasks automatically.



> The FreeBSD community has walled itself off from many computer
> improvement due to its inability to adapt.

If you only adapt, not invent, not step forward, you can
only be as good as the leader, but you cannot be better.
Being better is the natural enemy of being good. ;-)



> Have fun Poly. I eagerly await the company line.

As a non-native speaker, I have no idea what that means...


-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...



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