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Date:      Sat, 9 May 2020 12:52:03 -0400
From:      Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net>
To:        freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Microsoft Teams for Linux
Message-ID:  <20200509125203.000036a2@seibercom.net>
In-Reply-To: <20200509173218.7c1bec97.freebsd@edvax.de>
References:  <b64d57e2-f4d7-7618-c711-6501a652a6ac@suszko.eu> <20200505093624.00001df2@seibercom.net> <223da1b3-a83d-b2e8-36dc-468dcb219305@suszko.eu> <db68d8c4-cf3e-5a2f-63d9-f16f0b4f9559@lidstrom.eu> <fecdd83b-2061-a6c0-f927-c380cbc2b500@suszko.eu> <a0828175-6f75-92c4-ab48-bfd395e1a91d@suszko.eu> <ce6fe689-777f-7285-3483-76fb73ea3e82@suszko.eu> <f3a86f00-7e81-ec9d-2f29-c4d9bc3e0094@lidstrom.eu> <b28e6141-04bc-4f66-93e3-658929500c0c@suszko.eu> <CAM8r67Boe0dQt+1T8rdoubxNKaeDCaQ5UkY1nThM8UahF=WU3g@mail.gmail.com> <20200508113438.00006adc@seibercom.net> <CAM8r67DqhC37qoU99iBXPvSZAVVPezPCfKipOD-2xiig95-0TA@mail.gmail.com> <20200508185327.00007397@seibercom.net> <20200509063222.94d762e9751a32c693d73d2f@sohara.org> <20200509062517.00002c46@seibercom.net> <20200509121604.b385c38e8ad5518c9a571ef2@sohara.org> <20200509135024.d3ace507.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200509085553.00006a3a@seibercom.net> <20200509173218.7c1bec97.freebsd@edvax.de>

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On Sat, 9 May 2020 17:32:18 +0200, Polytropon commented:
>On Sat, 9 May 2020 08:55:53 -0400, Jerry wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 May 2020 13:50:24 +0200, Polytropon commented: =20
>> >On Sat, 9 May 2020 12:16:04 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: =20
>> >> On Sat, 9 May 2020 06:25:17 -0400
>> >> Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote:
>> >>    =20
>> >> > On Sat, 9 May 2020 06:32:22 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith
>> >> > commented:   =20
>> >> > >On Fri, 8 May 2020 18:53:27 -0400
>> >> > >Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote:
>> >> > >   =20
>> >> > >> Both "Zoom" and "MS Teams" are working fine in my Win10
>> >> > >> machine. I have never tried to get them to work on FreeBSD,
>> >> > >> and I have no idea why I would want to. I don't have a linux
>> >> > >> machine handy, although that is on my "to-do" list. Perhaps
>> >> > >> by the end of this summer.     =20
>> >> > >
>> >> > > One good reason for wanting them working on Linux or FreeBSD
>> >> > > is not owning a Windows machine. I don't, so if I wished to
>> >> > > use either of those tools it seems I would need to buy one or
>> >> > > try and get it to work on something else.   =20
>> >> >=20
>> >> > You seem to be under some preconceived notion that your need to
>> >> > 'own' a Windows or other OS machine. You could run the
>> >> > application(s) in a VM. It is becoming ubiquitous from what I
>> >> > have observed.   =20
>> >>=20
>> >> 	I still need to own a Windows license to do that - I do
>> >> not.=20
>> >
>> >You cannot own a license - you can be granted a license. Such a
>> >license can also be revoked, no matter how much you paid for it.
>> >In addition to a valid license, you typically need a registration
>> >for the use of the desired service. Depending on the service, this
>> >might include personal data you might not be willing to share with
>> >an untrusted third party (and their unknown partners) just for the
>> >sake of a video conference, such as name, date of birth, residence,
>> >banking information, who knows. That valuable data adds to the
>> >costs of licensing. =20
>>=20
>> In the cases of the software I use, the use of telemetry can be
>> shutoff or restricted to certain functions, like a program crash. It
>> is always wise to investigate exactly what information is being
>> analyzed. As always, it is my choice; no one is holding a gun to my
>> head forcing me to accept anything.
>>  =20
>> >I fully agree with Jerry that trying to get certain software
>> >intended to be used with "Windows" exclusively to work on FreeBSD
>> >is, in most cases, not worth the time. A VM with a suitable
>> >"Windows" is often the best solution. Some software is so complex,
>> >and tied with the bowels of "Windows" so deeply that even with
>> >tools like wine it is not possible to get an acceptable result. The
>> >same applies for software that is run using a web browser: If it
>> >only supports one specific browser, use that browser, instead of
>> >trying to a get a different browser to to something that it is
>> >probably not able to do. Always keep in mind that the complexity of
>> >modern web browsers has reached (or maybe even surpassed) the
>> >complexity of whole operating systems - and this also seems to be
>> >true for their differences and incompatibilities, intended or not. =20
>>=20
>> I have never understood why in a day when there are numerous VMs
>> available, any sane person would resort to 'wine'. Wine is nothing
>> more than a pseudo Windows environment. If you are going to use
>> Windows for a specific purpose, then do it correctly and use a VM. =20
>
>Why? There are plenty of programs that work excellent with wine.
>For example, I have games installed that run with wine, and I'm
>happy I don't need a "Windows" installation to run them. Using
>wine's environment gets rid of a specific aspect, which you
>introduced: People intend to run programs (applications, apps,
>whatever you want to call them) in order to reach a certain goal.
>People do not, I repeat, do _not_ run operating systems out of
>a primary intention; they rather use them as a means to run the
>programs they want. And for the games mentioned, I don't want
>and don't need a "Windows" - wine is more than sufficient. There
>is no additional complexity or resource consumption of a VM,
>and I still get all benefits of the underlying UNIX OS without
>the need to "go into a golden cage" (the VM) where every inter-
>action, like copying files in / out, accessing network resources,
>or local hardware devices, requires additional configuration to
>some extent.

If 'wine', the software version, not the beverage, suits you, then that
is great. I have always found it buggy and slow, but I would not stop
someone else from utilizing it. If you are happy with it, then I am
happy for you.

>> I also question why FreeBSD has never ported Google Chrome into its
>> ports system? Is this by design, a sort of product discrimination? I
>> know, Poly, "patches accepted". =20
>
>Isn't Chromium supposed to be the "free replacement" for Chrome?

No, not really. In any case, Google Chrome is free, so I fail to see
the basis for you argument.

>> I love FreeBSD for what it is good as. I run postfix, mysql,
>> openldap, and a few other utilities, but that is it. I cannot run a
>> full desktop on FreeBSD. =20
>
>Maybe you cannot, either by decision or by external causes.
>Others can. I do run FreeBSD as a desktop since version 4.0
>and have never missed something I needed.

>> Whether it is KDE, Gnome or whatever, unless it is a totally
>> stripped down version, there are just too many things that don't
>> work. =20

>I fully agree here. It usually takes some work to get them
>running on FreeBSD with the full set of features. Thi is,
>in my opinion, primarily due to the fact that they are
>intended for Linux, and the FreeBSD versions are ports of
>the Linux versions, which introduces problems mentioned
>before (non-interoperability, non-compatibility and such),
>so they rely on stuff long abandoned in Linux world, or
>something is hardwired with the Linux kernel that FreeBSD
>does not have an equivalent for.
>
>Technically speaking, it is not impossible (!), but you know
>that it requires time, and with time =3D=3D money, it's an
>important consideration to make. So for specific cases, it's
>probably much easier to just take the appropriate Linux
>distribution and everything works, instead of trying to
>get 99.9% working on FreeBSD.

>For each task, use the best tool. There is no "one tool" that
>will do solve all tasks automatically.

Correct as far as it goes, However, there is no reason to use a dozen
different tools that don't even speak the same language when I can use
three that are functionally compatible with each other.

EXAMPLE: right now I am using a 1) TeXstudio (LaTex with MiTeX), 2)
Adobe Acrobat DC, 3) MS Word 4) MS Excel, and 5) Grammarly to create a
document. I can leverage the power of each of these applications into
one seamless experience. If I need to, I can even use either Excel or
MS Access to access information stored on my MySQL server running on my
FreeBSD machine.

I have never reached that sort of freedom or usefulness with a FreeBSD
desktop. Too many applications either don't work, don't work well or
don't work with each other.

>> The FreeBSD community has walled itself off from many computer
>> improvement due to its inability to adapt. =20
>
>If you only adapt, not invent, not step forward, you can
>only be as good as the leader, but you cannot be better.
>Being better is the natural enemy of being good. ;-)

I "absolutely agree." Never-the-less, there are those who criticize and
demean anyone or entity that attempts to create a newer or better
product that extends or rewrites a "standard" that those with their
heads stuck in the sand cherish like a Divine Law or biblical law. I
remember when virtually all cars were based on a 6 volt system. That
gave way to the 12 volt system. My GOD, if the open-source community
had existed then, they would have been pulling their hair out over this
gross departure from a beloved 'standard'. ANY FRIGGING STANDARD that
curtails or slows down progress is a BAD-BAD-BAD standard. If you do
not evolve, you are standing still; which is effectively the same as
going in reverse.

>> Have fun Poly. I eagerly await the company line. =20
>
>As a non-native speaker, I have no idea what that means...

Fair enough. Perhaps you are familiar with the expression, "toeing the
party line."

It boils down, at least for me, this philosophy.

There are three solutions to every problem:

  1) Accept it
  2) Change it
  3) Leave it

If you can not "accept it," "change it." If you can not "change it,"
"leave it." I have learned that banging my head against a wall or
screaming at the top of my lungs, only results in a headache and a sore
throat. I would rather play golf or go fishing.

Steve Jobs believed deeply in his own capacity to define new products
that customers did not even know they wanted, in the process overturning
other real markets in, for example, personal computers, music, cell
phones, tablet computing and animated movies.

Can you imagine where we would be today if someone with a set of balls
hadn't pushed the limits. Hell, he erased them.

Oh, before I forget, "PATCHES ACCEPTED."

--=20
Jerry



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