From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Nov 12 19:58:45 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0191D10656A7 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:58:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx02.qsc.de (mx02.qsc.de [213.148.130.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD6F8FC1D for ; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:58:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r55.edvax.de (port-92-195-8-222.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.8.222]) by mx02.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45DA91E4F7; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:58:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from r55.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r55.edvax.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with SMTP id oACJwgcE001961; Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:58:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 20:58:42 +0100 From: Polytropon To: Rob Farmer Message-Id: <20101112205842.d71bec49.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <201011100009.oAA09mfG024502@mail.r-bonomi.com> <20101112011934.GC35128@guilt.hydra> <20101112200653.9929e115.freebsd@edvax.de> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.7 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tips for installing windows and freeBSD both.. anyone?? X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:58:45 -0000 On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 11:33:38 -0800, Rob Farmer wrote: > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:06, Polytropon wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:21:51 -0800, Rob Farmer wrote: > >> I'm not saying the CLI is universally bad - if you gain competence > >> with a set of programs that you use frequently, it can be very > >> efficient. It does make it hard to enter a new area, though - you've > >> got to learn some before you can do anything. > > > > When entering WHICH field new to you this is different? > > > > Repeat after me: Computers. Are. Not. Easy. :-) > > None - but people don't feel like they are entering a new field. Hey, I was just kidding. :-) Computers and HOW we INTERACT with them have come a long way. The more BASIC your skills are, the better you can mater complex tasks - the tasks that are impossible to solve for the self-proclaimed dynamical long-legged elastic group-oriented program manangers. :-) > Everyone uses computers - public schools have spent massive amounts of > money to start kids using computers at 5 or 6 years old, if they > haven't already at home. Early indoctrination is the best. When the basics are learned, it's very easy to introduce misbeliefs, "musts" and strange concepts (or their absence at all). Schools are the ideal place for that. Using a computer and KNOWING about a computer are different things. As a car driver, I don't have to exactly know how the car works in every detail. Still I have to know the rules that apply in traffic. I need to have a driving license that states that I know - or I won't be able to participate in traffic. I'm just mentioning this as people do like car analogies. :-) What I want to say is that: Using the computer in a "trial & error manner" may be sufficient for some jobs, but even animals can be more clever than that. They even think before they act. School has done a good job convincing children to switch off their brain when switching on the computer. You can see the absence of common sense nearly everywhere where computers are in regular use. Don't force me to give examples. :-) > So the discussion isn't framed as learning something new - its "why > should we change the way everyone has been working for years?" Because your assumption is wrong. Why should we change it? No, we should not change it. The question is: WHO should change it, and WHY. Let me answer quickly: Those who need to do serious work (=who), because their money and therefore their future depends on it (=why). > To use a US example, you see the same thing with the SI/metric system. > Scientists and other technical people use it almost universally > without issue (except for some oddities, PSI is somewhat popular) - it > is better for real/serious work, but the general public doesn't see it > as new or valuable - its just a stupid change in the way everything > has always been done. Exchange "always" to "for a long time" (which may be less than a man's life span for computer related topics). If you emphasize the "Where's the benefit?" approach, just see what incompatibility and misunderstandings can create in DIFFICULT situations. When terminonoly isn't used properly, when people can't even express what they need - why? Because they never learned the WORDS that are needed. Our spoken and written language heavily relies on words and how we use them. Words are a domain of CLI, natively, while GUI operates on pictures, images, symbols. Of course symboles are also a kind of language, but this language is often much harder to learn. The circle closes: When scholar education didn't provide the basics of language, how can an individual be able to use a system that depends on language (when this individual has only learned to chose from a predefined set of options)? Seeing things "as new" can be a great accelleration in promoting changes. People "want new", because their friends "have new", or the neighbor "has better". Using this approach, together with the mechanisms of advertising that control the market, people can be forced to DO anything, BUY anything, BELIEVE anything - and those people even believe they are choosing freely. To adopt that concept to the consideration GUI vs. CLI, or "how good is _this_ GUI", advertising dictates how people think about the whole topic. A shiny application window, dancing elephants, lots of blingbling, stylish animations and sounds can make them really forget about what has been their primary interest: to use the PC in order to get a JOB DONE. "Entertainment" ia a magic word you often see here, as well as "experience". It depends on the individidual state of mind what a person enjoys as "enter- taining" or "experiencing". A video game can do that, as well as a book. I may use an example from psychiatry: In the past we had patients who suffered from "pathological gambling". They sat infront of one-armed bandits and were putting all their money (as well as NOT their money) into the slot machine. More and more, day after day. The effects presented by the machine was giving them "excite- ment" and "joy", the overall setting "commodity" and "a familiar warmth" (as long as they HAD money). This made them forget what was REALLY happening - them losing all their money. The continuous bombardement of the mind with this setting lead to a change of how "thoughts were made", and strange expectations came up: "The slot machine HAS to pay my money back!" or "I'm not responsible for losing my money, the slot machine took it!" or even "I *have to* gamble! I must win my money back!" Bringing this example into the initial discussion: You often see users who are familiar with GUIs (they'll never admit they have learned anything!) that they have strange concepts in mind, or simply deny the possibility of "a differen reality" (work that can be done in 1/10th the time, for example). Those also put their cup of coffee onto the fingerslime-glidepad of their laptop and complain that the coffee warmer doesn't work. :-) No, seriously: The more educated you are when approaching GUI concepts, the more you can form a valueful opinion about it. Many aspects are individual experiences from daily use. As your knowledge (as a professional) is usually MUCH MORE than just pointing and grunting, erm, clicking, you are able to "look behind the curtain". This may lead you to the opinion that GUI program Y is pure crap, while Z is good for the job, while your boss insists on using Y - unlike Z - as it has singing and dancing bunnies. =^_^= -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...