Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:33:05 +0100 From: Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk> To: Daniel Braniss <danny@cs.huji.ac.il> Cc: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Graham Perrin <grahamperrin@gmail.com>, FreeBSD Current <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts Message-ID: <CADWvR2ixMii=ks%2BPq650zrDi9G0CwKJ9_27G7gdOkrUN3pbxPg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <00144DCD-7DB6-475A-9719-D5B714B84DC8@cs.huji.ac.il> References: <868svf6r05.fsf@phe.ftfl.ca> <CADWvR2hekmiTeUxoJ=AOstgbWbVpjs6YYzx6syVN9kVcR3bfHw@mail.gmail.com> <CADWvR2i9jic44r4CbmA=rTn-Ej=9Ex439gUO7syZfj_6jmygzg@mail.gmail.com> <e5586cc9-672e-414e-9d63-2c3df50b6abd@www.fastmail.com> <CADWvR2hx%2BYbf5GxpwhjzeX_9Zkk0h_Gc2ftC7nypyuNAJP14=A@mail.gmail.com> <ed052186-1de9-1a7a-1c18-e3b57fdeb96c@gmail.com> <CANCZdfo6HrPdKeWHgZt5-2agb8deXETjmf7HNYO7Rf3ZnDWRZA@mail.gmail.com> <CADWvR2h9DWY05X2FSgFYVKcBR3EVhient9QmEjrVB00U9eWstw@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfqyjK6WHHOY0Jd7ThYaMKTVELNftMADwfgWdQaf0KcDBg@mail.gmail.com> <CADWvR2i5XG5_AmaAW1wHWafFpSG5oY6O3BqeTn1=7FYdhQ%2BV-w@mail.gmail.com> <00144DCD-7DB6-475A-9719-D5B714B84DC8@cs.huji.ac.il>
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So you think a discussion on whether it is appropriate that CoC Ctte restricts freedom of expression is bikeshedding? Thank you for your valuable contribution! -- Igor M. On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 06:23, Daniel Braniss wrote: > > BIKE SHED SYNDROME? > > danny > PS: intentionally top posting :-) > > > On 19 May 2019, at 22:43, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > > > On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 20:16, Warner Losh wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > >>> > >>> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > <snip> > > > >>>> Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell > >>>> fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. > >>> > >>> <snip> > >>> > >>> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as > >>> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded > >>> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or > >>> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is > >>> triggered by precisely the latter. > >> > >> > >> It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its > >> members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm > >> comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme > >> it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness > >> of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so > >> extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There > >> needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. > > > > It's very difficult to subscribe to that view! The first problem you > > encounter is "what is an objectively extreme expression"--what is > > extreme to one, might be entirely common place to another. I'm sure > > whatever religious book one takes there is a passage that goes along > > the lines of "judge people by their deeds not by their words"... > > Secondly, the greatest legal minds in the US wrangled with that and > > came up with one answer: *ANY* expression is protected for otherwise > > it would not be "freedom." > > > > > >> At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered > >> for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from > >> the project that could otherwise be spent on making things > >> better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad > >> consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, > >> as well as having a fair and just response by the board in > >> the cases that require some action. > > > > > > Agreement by consensus is most dangerous, for, usually, the loudest > > wins because people with no backbone fall in-line; the best > > explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a > > sheep deciding what to have for dinner!"
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