From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 7:14:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A6437B406; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 07:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 6CA5F17BC1; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4742315CC9; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:14:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:14:15 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <001a01c16501$8514f380$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > 2) Getting back to NatWest, where is the evidence that IE is not blind > accessible? For the sake of argument assume that ADA applies to commercial > websites - well even if it did, it seems to me that there would only be > grounds to sue if IE somehow could not be make blind-accessible. After all, > consider a porno website - blind people aren't consumers of pornographic > images and thus there is no access issue here, thus to make IE Most blind people aren't consumers of pornorgraphic images. You might find a blind person who wanted to gather some images to give to someone else, or something like that. > blind-accessible > it would seem that all that would be necessary is to attach a braille > terminal and get IE to work with it. Since blind people cannot by definition > consume images, all that a braille terminal need display on a website is the > textual information on the site. > > It may be cynical to say this but wouldn't it be cheaper if someone like > AOL was sued for access problems, for them to simply work with Microsoft and > release a blind-enabled IE than to redesign their many websites. Not only > would it be cheaper but also profitable. It's a lot more complicated than that. First, it's not at all clear that were the ADA to apply to commercial web sites that it would be acceptable to require tha you use IE, as opposed to any generally accepted solution. Braille terminals don't work very well with GUI interfaces, though there are drivers for many of the newer models that allow work with windows. The people I've known who used them have much prefered to use command line interface. Second, reading the text on a web site is often not enough to be able to use it. There are lots of things that flash UIs, which are utterly inaccesable by the blind, and more that have images for navigation buttons, with no, or useless, alt attributes. > > Thus, there is no possible way that even if a blind person has all possible > permutations of a LaserJet 4+ front panel menu memorized, plus all the > buttons, > that he or she can walk up to a HP Laserjet 4+ that he has never seen or used > before and select options via the front panel because he has no way of knowing > what menus will be displayed. > > Now, suppose I'm HP and operating under an ADA mandate, and I put out > documentation > for the HP Laserjet 4+ front panel on my website. Well, what possible use is > it to make this documentation blind-accessible, because a blind person cannot > use the front panel anyway even if they could read the docs, without > assistance > of a sighted person? "Hey, Ted, want to read me the documentation while I stand here in front of the printer, where I can't see the computer?" Have you never helped fix a problem over the phone, where the person doing the work doesn't have access to documentation, buy you do? I do this fairly regularly. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 9:24:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C88A37B405 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 09:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15286 invoked by uid 100); 4 Nov 2001 17:24:38 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15333.31190.717768.983778@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:24:38 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <001a01c16501$8514f380$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <15332.41849.327680.753795@guru.mired.org> <001a01c16501$8514f380$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt types: > Let me throw in my $0.02 here: > > 1) Could you guys retitle this thread "ADA Website access" or something? > NatWest disappeared a long time ago. Don't get me wrong I'm interested > in how it comes out. You missed your chance... > 2) Getting back to NatWest, where is the evidence that IE is not blind > accessible? For the sake of argument assume that ADA applies to commercial > websites - well even if it did, it seems to me that there would only be > grounds to sue if IE somehow could not be make blind-accessible. After all, > consider a porno website - blind people aren't consumers of pornographic > images and thus there is no access issue here, thus to make IE > blind-accessible > it would seem that all that would be necessary is to attach a braille > terminal and get IE to work with it. Since blind people cannot by definition > consume images, all that a braille terminal need display on a website is the > textual information on the site. That was my second reason the complaint was wrong, which vanished from the thread a long time ago. If MSN requires MSIE, and MSIE's many accessibility options makes the site accessible, then the system as a whole is fine. > It may be cynical to say this but wouldn't it be cheaper if someone like > AOL was sued for access problems, for them to simply work with Microsoft and > release a blind-enabled IE than to redesign their many websites. Not only > would it be cheaper but also profitable. What really happened when AOL was sued by the National Federation for the Blind is probably safer.. They settled out of court after AOL agreed to make the next version of their software accessible. MicroSoft didn't need to get involved. > 3) Even if there was a US Supreme Court ruling that mandated ADA for > commercial > websites, how would it apply if the website content was not about something > that a blind person can use. If a blind person were acting in some capacity for a a sighted person - i.e., considering buying a gift, or researching options or some such thing. You know they really do put braille on the buttons in the drive-through ATMs. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 11:26:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CA937B416 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA4JQbc04069; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:26:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:26:01 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: paul@saxa.georgetown.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Email hosting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011104142405.D18641-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 paul@saxa.georgetown.edu wrote: > Can anyone recommend an email hosting service (company)? addy.com They are not an email hosting company per-se, but in the years I have had them email is the primary things I have kept them for. They are a web hosting company, but only charge 1$ per email address beyond the first account. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 11:39:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BC737B416 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:39:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA4Jdfc04323 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:39:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:39:05 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Mini survey. Backup service for BSDs Message-ID: <20011104142909.F18641-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been pondering the idea of making a backup service for BSDs. It seems there are many for windows, but few (none?) for BSDs (or that would work with BSDs). So far I am thinking of using unison (simmilar to rsync, but simpler to learn/use) over ssh. The remaining issue is trying to find a crypto filesystem. Thoughts? I am thinking something along the lines: Space Cost 100MB $20 200MB $30 500MB $50 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 13:18: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8858C37B416 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-196.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.196] helo=stinky.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 160UeL-000I55-00; Sun, 04 Nov 2001 21:17:49 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Paul Robinson To: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Mini survey. Backup service for BSDs Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:17:20 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20011104142909.F18641-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> In-Reply-To: <20011104142909.F18641-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01110403172000.01404@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Scanner: exiscan *160UeL-000I55-00*$AK$sN13OIXCxz99u6pPdUO5Z/* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday 04 November 2001 19:39, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I have been pondering the idea of making a backup service for BSDs. > It seems there are many for windows, but few (none?) for BSDs (or that > would work with BSDs). I think you might be targetting the wrong crowd at this point in time - backup systems like you're proposing are really useful if you have a desktop with loads of important info on, but you can't afford a DAT or similar, and you want an off-site backup. As the current market segment FreeBSD sits in is mostly the ISP-like data center or hard-core sysadmin crowd, most of the current users will have a backup solution of their own. However, what I would say is that this is something that would be really cool if FBSD started seeing more desktop market share, and I can image that it would be a very neat system to sell FBSD to managers with. However, I think I have a better plan. I was contemplating a few months ago coming up with some sort of open, public, distributed backup system that used something like PGP or similar crypto across a peer-to-peer-like architecture. And make it free. I know people have talked about distributed file systems with p2p but I want to test the waters with backups first. If you can get that working, distributed FS becomes a reality. > So far I am thinking of using unison (simmilar to rsync, but simpler to > learn/use) over ssh. The remaining issue is trying to find a crypto > filesystem. Never heard of unison, but I know rsync doesn't like large filesystems, and eats memory like Elvis ate burgers, but the ssh is good for the transactional security. If you can work out how to make sure the data on your system is secure, but they also manage to make a recovery when the private key disappears with the machine that gets screwed, then you might be onto something. ;-) > Thoughts? > I am thinking something along the lines: > Space Cost > 100MB $20 > 200MB $30 > 500MB $50 Per month? Per year? One-off charge? It was per month, I'd say it's above where most home users would want it, and like I said before most companies tend to prefer their own solutions. Unless somebody can tell us different. Just my 2 braincells worth. ;-) -- Paul Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 13:30:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1400237B416 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02230; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:30:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104142751.042dc850@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 14:30:09 -0700 To: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Mini survey. Backup service for BSDs In-Reply-To: <20011104142909.F18641-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco: There are already a few commercial products that will back up BSD machines, but I don't know of any remote backup services. The big problem is bandwidth; even if you do a differential backup, the volume generated by a company of any size is likely to be large. --Brett At 12:39 PM 11/4/2001, Francisco Reyes wrote: >I have been pondering the idea of making a backup service for BSDs. >It seems there are many for windows, but few (none?) for BSDs (or that >would work with BSDs). > >So far I am thinking of using unison (simmilar to rsync, but simpler to >learn/use) over ssh. The remaining issue is trying to find a crypto >filesystem. > >Thoughts? >I am thinking something along the lines: >Space Cost >100MB $20 >200MB $30 >500MB $50 > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 15:25:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zork.punq.net (punq.net [207.154.84.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F75E37B405 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:25:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13216 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Nov 2001 23:18:41 -0000 Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 15:18:41 -0800 From: Marcus Reid To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org Subject: simplicity_saver Message-ID: <20011104151840.A13030@blazingdot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="FCuugMFkClbJLl1L" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Coffee-Level: high Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi: I thought I'd share this screensaver module that I wrote. I find it interesting what the effect is achieved with only a few lines of code, yet it looks very complicated. -- Marcus Reid Blazingdot "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Makefile KMOD= simplicity_saver SRCS= simplicity_saver.c CWARNFLAGS= -Wall -pedantic .include --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="simplicity_saver.c" /*- * Copyright (c) 2001 Marcus L. Reid * All rights reserved. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer, * without modification, immediately at the beginning of the file. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR * IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES * OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. * IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, * INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT * NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, * DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY * THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT * (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF * THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. * */ /* * 20011103 Marcus L. Reid * * written with much help from fire_saver.c * */ #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #define X_SIZE 320 #define Y_SIZE 200 static int blanked; static u_char k_pal[768]; static u_char buf[X_SIZE * (Y_SIZE + 1)]; static u_char *vid; static int z, cv; static int simplicity_saver(video_adapter_t *adp, int blank) { int x, y; if (blank) { if (blanked <= 0) { int red, green, blue; int palette_index; set_video_mode(adp, M_VGA_CG320); /* build and load palette */ red = green = blue = 0; for (palette_index = 0; palette_index < 256; palette_index++) { if(palette_index < 64) { k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 0] = palette_index * 4; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 1] = 0; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 2] = 0; } else if(palette_index < 128) { k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 0] = 0; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 1] = (palette_index - 64) * 4; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 2] = 0; } else if(palette_index < 192) { k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 0] = 0; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 1] = 0; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 2] = (palette_index - 128) * 4; } else if(palette_index < 256) { k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 0] = (palette_index - 192) * 4; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 1] = (palette_index - 192) * 4; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 2] = (palette_index - 192) * 4; } } load_palette(adp, k_pal); blanked++; vid = (u_char *) adp->va_window; } /* Now that we have the colors, time for simple magic. */ for (y = 0; y < Y_SIZE; cv += y++) { for (x = 0; x < X_SIZE; cv += x++) { buf[y*X_SIZE+x] = cv % 256; } } cv += z++; /* Done. */ /* blit our buffer into video ram */ memcpy(vid, buf, X_SIZE * Y_SIZE); } else { blanked = 0; } return 0; } static int simplicity_initialise(video_adapter_t *adp) { video_info_t info; /* check that the console is capable of running in 320x200x256 */ if (get_mode_info(adp, M_VGA_CG320, &info)) { log(LOG_NOTICE, "simplicity_saver: the console does not support M_VGA_CG320\n"); return (ENODEV); } blanked = 0; z = 0; return 0; } static int simplicity_terminate(video_adapter_t *adp) { return 0; } static scrn_saver_t simplicity_module = { "simplicity_saver", simplicity_initialise, simplicity_terminate, simplicity_saver, NULL }; SAVER_MODULE(simplicity_saver, simplicity_module); --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 16: 6:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bazooka.trit.org (bazooka.trit.org [63.198.170.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D3D37B416 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 16:06:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by bazooka.trit.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AD2DA4034; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 00:06:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bazooka (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bazooka.trit.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96493C137; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 00:06:22 +0000 (UTC) To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fgrep - a quirky question for you all In-Reply-To: <20011030130007.D38696@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on "Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:00:07 +0000" Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 00:06:17 +0000 From: Dima Dorfman Message-Id: <20011105000622.AD2DA4034@bazooka.trit.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > What does this 'f' in fgrep stand for? See grep(1). In the second paragraph, it says that "fgrep is the same as grep -F"; when defining the -F option, it says: -F, --fixed-strings Interpret PATTERN as a list of fixed strings, sepa- rated by newlines, any of which is to be matched. which seems to imply that the 'F' stands for "[F]ixed strings". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 19:46:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AC5237B416 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA53kNc11635; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:46:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:45:50 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Paul Robinson Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Mini survey. Backup service for BSDs In-Reply-To: <01110403172000.01404@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20011104215600.O19362-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Paul Robinson wrote: > On Sunday 04 November 2001 19:39, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > I have been pondering the idea of making a backup service for BSDs. > > It seems there are many for windows, but few (none?) for BSDs (or that > > would work with BSDs). > > I think you might be targetting the wrong crowd at this point in time - > backup systems like you're proposing are really useful if you have a desktop > with loads of important info on, but you can't afford a DAT or similar, and > you want an off-site backup. As the current market segment FreeBSD sits in is > mostly the ISP-like data center or hard-core sysadmin crowd, most of the > current users will have a backup solution of their own. I was thinking home users and small offices. For instance what got me started thinking on this is a small office that I manage. Before I used to have a tape unit at the office. Later I configured an automatic backup to a windows machine. On 9-11 due to the terrorist attack my client lost access to his office for almost two weeks. That got me thinking on the need to have an outisde backup. > However, what I would say is that this is something that would be really cool > if FBSD started seeing more desktop market share, and I can image that it > would be a very neat system to sell FBSD to managers with. Don't see that happening soon. > I was contemplating a few months ago coming up with some sort of open, > public, distributed backup system that used something like PGP or similar > crypto across a peer-to-peer-like architecture. And make it free. What would be the benefit? > If you can work out how to make sure the data on your system is > secure, but they also manage to make a recovery when the private key > disappears with the machine that gets screwed, then you might be onto > something. ;-) That remains the most difficult element. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 19:50:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50F037B405 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:50:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA53oHc17336; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:50:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 22:49:44 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Brett Glass Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Mini survey. Backup service for BSDs In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011104142751.042dc850@localhost> Message-ID: <20011104224602.D19362-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > Francisco: > > There are already a few commercial products that will back up > BSD machines, but I don't know of any remote backup > services. The big problem is bandwidth; even if you do a > differential backup, the volume generated by a company of > any size is likely to be large. Any program which uses the Rsync algorithm helps out a lot. An office that I am backing up took about 6 hours for the first upload, but after that all updates have taken less than 20 minutes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 4 21:27:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9148C37B405 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:27:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRANKENFURTER (user-112vp95.biz.mindspring.com [66.47.229.37]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA07847; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 00:27:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:32:59 -0800 From: Brian Sobolak X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Brian Sobolak X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <111105778651.20011104213259@mindspring.com> To: Paul Robinson Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re[2]: Mini survey. Backup service for BSDs In-Reply-To: <01110403172000.01404@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20011104142909.F18641-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> <01110403172000.01404@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Paul, Saturday, November 03, 2001, 7:17:20 PM, you wrote: PR> I think you might be targetting the wrong crowd at this point in time - PR> backup systems like you're proposing are really useful if you have a desktop PR> with loads of important info on, but you can't afford a DAT or similar, and PR> you want an off-site backup. As the current market segment FreeBSD sits in is PR> mostly the ISP-like data center or hard-core sysadmin crowd, most of the PR> current users will have a backup solution of their own. I think this was one of services offered by Eazel for Linux. I wonder how many customers they signed up. PR> Never heard of unison, but I know rsync doesn't like large filesystems, and PR> eats memory like Elvis ate burgers, but the ssh is good for the transactional Burgers? I thought The King preferred fried peanut butter sandwiches... -- Got work? http://www.planetshwoop.com/resume/ Brian Sobolak sobolak@myrealbox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 2:19:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F393B37B416; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA5AJVT87471; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:19:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:19:30 -0800 Message-ID: <004101c165e3$5b5715e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <15333.31190.717768.983778@guru.mired.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mike Meyer >Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 9:25 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks > > >> It may be cynical to say this but wouldn't it be cheaper if someone like >> AOL was sued for access problems, for them to simply work with >Microsoft and >> release a blind-enabled IE than to redesign their many websites. Not only >> would it be cheaper but also profitable. > >What really happened when AOL was sued by the National Federation for >the Blind is probably safer.. They settled out of court after AOL >agreed to make the next version of their software accessible. >MicroSoft didn't need to get involved. > Well, there you go - it's cheaper to redesign the AOL software than to fix the sites it's being used to view. >> 3) Even if there was a US Supreme Court ruling that mandated ADA for >> commercial >> websites, how would it apply if the website content was not about something >> that a blind person can use. > >If a blind person were acting in some capacity for a a sighted person >- i.e., considering buying a gift, or researching options or some such >thing. > Hmmm... but how would a blind person research which porno site had the better pictures? Or how would a blind person select a modern art painting for a gift? >You know they really do put braille on the buttons in the >drive-through ATMs. > :-) Yeah, I've heard that joke before too, but actually since the same people make the ATM's that are used both as walk-up and as drive-through, your going to see that because it's cheaper to only make one kind of button and use it in both types. The ones that I can't figure out are the elevators in parking garages. Unlike ATM's, elevator buttons aren't standard even within the same manufacturer so the ATM reason doesen't apply there. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 2:41:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2464437B416; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA5AfiT87527; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:41:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Scheidt" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:41:43 -0800 Message-ID: <004201c165e6$75c34720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: David Scheidt [mailto:rufus@brain.mics.net] >Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:14 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Mike Meyer; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks > > >Most blind people aren't consumers of pornorgraphic images. You might find >a blind person who wanted to gather some images to give to someone else, or >something like that. > But even then they cannot make selection decisions because they cannot see what they are gathering and have no idea if the image is a real picture or a picture of an advertisement or is even worth looking at. So I think that because of this reason it's impossible to argue that everything on the Internet is usable by the blind and thus must be made accessible. > >It's a lot more complicated than that. First, it's not at all clear that >were the ADA to apply to commercial web sites that it would be acceptable to >require tha you use IE, as opposed to any generally accepted solution. Let's be clear on this, it's impossible for the website to require IE - all the website can do is require that the user use a web browser that appears to be IE. Since the browser is operated by the user, it's really in the power of the user to send back any browser ID string they feel like, support whatever active x ie supports, etc. Any accessible browser that someone might develop could be made to emulate IE, and in fact would have to do this to make it as accessible as possible. (since the entire point of such a program would be to give access, spoofing the ID is just another component of the access) >Braille terminals don't work very well with GUI interfaces, What you mean is that _existing_ Braille terminals don't work very well. It's not because of any inherent property of a GUI interface, it's because not enough effort has been put into the braille terminal software. Even with the navagation button example you later cite, well we have OCR software for reading documents, you could certainly use that to OCR a navagation button that had text in the image. >though there are >drivers for many of the newer models that allow work with windows. The >people I've known who used them have much prefered to use command line >interface. Possibly because nobody has put enough money into developing a decent braille browser. > Second, reading the text on a web site is often not enough to be >able to use it. Exactly my point. If the knowledge gained from something made accessible is unusable to the blind person, then what is the point to making it accessible to start with. >There are lots of things that flash UIs, which are utterly >inaccesable by the blind, and more that have images for navigation > buttons, >with no, or useless, alt attributes. Frankly, I've never met a sighted person, upon seeing Flash on a website, exclaim "Wow that really is something that really needs to be on this website" The response generally is more along the lines of "get this ^&*$ off the screen" So you won't get any arguements out of me if the Supreme Court tells all commercial entities that Flash cannot be used because it doesen't meet ADA. On the contrary I'll be jumping for joy. Keep in mind that I'm not arguing against a court judgement that forces the issue of ADA on commercial websites. If one came down everyone, including sighted persons, would benefit because there's far too much crappy HTML on commercial sites as it is. What I do think, though, is that it's very easy to push this thing way too far, much easier than something mundane like building access. It's easy enough to argue that public buildings need ramp access - not only is it good for the handicapped, but there's lots of normal everyday things like deliveries on handcarts that don't go through the loading dock and why should the minimum-wage UPS delivery kid have to throw out his back carrying loads up steps all day long? But, while ADA access to commercial websites really needs to be written into the law, it also needs to have a whole lot more exceptions in it than building access. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 4: 6: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C10437B405 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-196.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.196] helo=stinky.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 160iVi-000MIv-00; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 12:05:50 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Paul Robinson To: Francisco Reyes Subject: Re: Mini survey. Backup service for BSDs Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 08:26:10 +0000 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] Cc: FreeBSD Chat List References: <20011104215600.O19362-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> In-Reply-To: <20011104215600.O19362-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0111040826100G.01404@stinky.akitanet.co.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Scanner: exiscan *160iVi-000MIv-00*$AK$X9WcI05H.pip6/RPPuLQV0* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday 05 November 2001 03:45, Francisco Reyes wrote: > > I was contemplating a few months ago coming up with some sort of open, > > public, distributed backup system that used something like PGP or similar > > crypto across a peer-to-peer-like architecture. And make it free. > > What would be the benefit? 1. Distributed multiple copies of data means redundancy 2. Basically a secure extension to existing P2P, meaning that we're using 'proven' technology 3. Free to use so would scupper your plans for this business... sorry. :-) 4. Easier to setup regular backups than a DAT drive - that can only be a good thing. 5. More reliable providing that the redundancy is relatively high There are a lot of details that need to be worked out, but in principle it could work. The problem is that for availability reasons you need to 'send' your data encrypted up to the network, and it has to be saved in a multitude of places so there is a high chance of it being available when you need it back later. You may be storing data from other's drives, but because it's being duplicated so much, the maths say you need to store a great deal more on other's behalf than they store on your behalf. If you're backing up 100Mb, and it is getting saved in 100 locations, then to make things fair you need to be prepared to handle upto 10Gb of data on their behalf. If nobody agrees to those rules, there will always be a shortage of available diskspace. > > If you can work out how to make sure the data on your system is > > secure, but they also manage to make a recovery when the private key > > disappears with the machine that gets screwed, then you might be onto > > something. ;-) > > That remains the most difficult element. Indeed. However, you don't need full-on public/private key encryption. The question is as to whether a more traditional one-way system (like 3DES, etc.) would be strong enough. If so, the only thing that needs to be retained by the client would be the passphrase. -- Paul Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 8:53:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75F337B405 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 6D02517BC1; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584FA15CC9; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:53:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:53:51 -0500 (EST) From: David Scheidt To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <004101c165e3$5b5715e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Well, there you go - it's cheaper to redesign the AOL software than to > fix the sites it's being used to view. There's more to AOL's software than a web browser. > > > The ones that I can't figure out are the elevators in parking garages. > Unlike ATM's, elevator buttons aren't standard even within the same > manufacturer so the ATM reason doesen't apply there. > > You don't think blind people go to parking garages? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 10:34:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207F937B417 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA5210; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:34:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE6DBC6.5A985010@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:34:46 -0800 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks References: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> <63zo63brsq.o63@localhost.localdomain> <15332.18917.367328.996483@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > If you haven't, find a copy of Raskin's "The Humane Interface", and > read it. He argues - quite convincingly - that the real problem is > that people are being offered applications at all. It's silly to have > to start a "word processor" to deal with a document with words in it > vs. having to start a "drawing program" to deal with a document with > graphics in it when the operations on the two things are fundamentally > the same: add, select, cut, copy, paste and set properties. OpenDoc on OS/2 Warp, now there was a humane interface. Problem is that the software companies aren't selling interfaces, they're selling applications. It's going to be up to us non-commercial Open Source types to take the best ideas of OS/2, RISCOS, and others and combine them into a human interface. Unfortunately we seem too obsessed with creating WIMP++ to have time to break the mold and start over. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 11: 8:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 46B6737B419 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:08:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 41380 invoked by uid 100); 5 Nov 2001 19:08:44 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15334.58300.361356.19614@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:08:44 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <004101c165e3$5b5715e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <15333.31190.717768.983778@guru.mired.org> <004101c165e3$5b5715e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >> 3) Even if there was a US Supreme Court ruling that mandated ADA for > >> commercial > >> websites, how would it apply if the website content was not about something > >> that a blind person can use. > > > >If a blind person were acting in some capacity for a a sighted person > >- i.e., considering buying a gift, or researching options or some such > >thing. > > > > Hmmm... but how would a blind person research which porno site had the > better pictures? Or how would a blind person select a modern art > painting for a gift? By the description that would be attached to the image(s) in a properly designed site. > >You know they really do put braille on the buttons in the > >drive-through ATMs. > :-) Yeah, I've heard that joke before too, but actually since the > same people make the ATM's that are used both as walk-up and as > drive-through, your going to see that because it's cheaper to only > make one kind of button and use it in both types. The ones in CA were clearly added after the ATM was installed. The real reason is that the person in the car using the ATM doesn't have to be the driver. > The ones that I can't figure out are the elevators in parking garages. > Unlike ATM's, elevator buttons aren't standard even within the same > manufacturer so the ATM reason doesen't apply there. Again, the person using the elevator button doesn't have to be the person who drove the car. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 11:33:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 264FA37B405 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 42203 invoked by uid 100); 5 Nov 2001 19:33:15 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15334.59771.604079.307131@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:33:15 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <004201c165e6$75c34720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <004201c165e6$75c34720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >It's a lot more complicated than that. First, it's not at all clear that > >were the ADA to apply to commercial web sites that it would be acceptable to > >require tha you use IE, as opposed to any generally accepted solution. > Let's be clear on this, it's impossible for the > website to require IE - all the website can do is require that > the user use a web browser that appears to be IE. Since the browser is > operated by the user, it's really in the power of the user to send back any > browser ID string they feel like, support whatever active x ie supports, etc. Note that Lynx used to warn people that changing the UA string might well be a violation of copyright. And since IE lets you disable Active X, discriminating based on the UA string will incorrectly exclude some people, and incorrectly include others. The correct solution is to detect the feature - or lack thereof - in question, and respond appropriately to that. See for a longer essay on that topic. [That's a temporary location while I'm waiting on a the hardware needed to fix my server.] > > Second, reading the text on a web site is often not enough to be > >able to use it. > Exactly my point. If the knowledge gained from something made accessible is > unusable to the blind person, then what is the point to making it accessible > to start with. Actually, those are two different points. At least, I think they are. The first is a complaint that many web sites are poorly designed, and don't make use of the ability to display an alternative if the media used isn't supported by the browser. The second is trying to make the point that the information provided may not be usable by the person doing the browsing. Which ignores the many cases where the person driving the browser isn't the final consumer of the information. > So you won't get any arguements out of me if the Supreme Court tells all > commercial entities that Flash cannot be used because it doesen't meet > ADA. On the contrary I'll be jumping for joy. Actually, the DoJ already has guidelines on this case - after all, it's been established that the ADA *does apply to web sites run with public funds. The answer is that it doesn't matter what the sighted person sees, so long as the unsighted or otherwise disabled can access the same information. Meaning that you'll get to disable flash plugins in your browser, and hopefully get text instead. > What I do think, though, is that it's very easy to push this thing way too > far, much easier than something mundane like building access. It's easy > enough to argue that public buildings need ramp access - not only is it good > for the handicapped, but there's lots of normal everyday things like > deliveries on handcarts that don't go through the loading dock and why should > the minimum-wage UPS delivery kid have to throw out his back carrying loads up > steps all day long? But, while ADA access to commercial websites really needs > to be written into the law, it also needs to have a whole lot more exceptions > in it than building access. I don't think you've made your case, for three different reasons. The one that's been discussed is that it's hard to determine exactly when some page would never be used by someone who is disabled. The second is that we've been concentrating on the blind, but there are other impairments that effect the browsing experience that need to be considered. Finally, as someone who consults professionally on creating accessible web sites, it's that the cost of creating an accessible web site is *very low*. Adding ramps to a building changes the look of the building, and may be a fundamental design change. All the W3C-designed standards provide for an alternative presentation if the browser doesn't use the primary one. All it takes to build an accessible web site is *using* those things with intelligence. Unfortunately, web site designers seem to be seriously lacking in that last ingredient. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 11:41:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BCD737B405 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:41:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 42617 invoked by uid 100); 5 Nov 2001 19:41:41 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15334.60277.832949.765531@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:41:41 -0600 To: David Johnson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <3BE6DBC6.5A985010@acuson.com> References: <20011102090253.G795-100000@jodie.ncptiddische.net> <3BE2EF8D.4CB9A508@acuson.com> <63zo63brsq.o63@localhost.localdomain> <15332.18917.367328.996483@guru.mired.org> <3BE6DBC6.5A985010@acuson.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Johnson types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > If you haven't, find a copy of Raskin's "The Humane Interface", and > > read it. He argues - quite convincingly - that the real problem is > > that people are being offered applications at all. It's silly to have > > to start a "word processor" to deal with a document with words in it > > vs. having to start a "drawing program" to deal with a document with > > graphics in it when the operations on the two things are fundamentally > > the same: add, select, cut, copy, paste and set properties. > > OpenDoc on OS/2 Warp, now there was a humane interface. > > Problem is that the software companies aren't selling interfaces, > they're selling applications. It's going to be up to us non-commercial > Open Source types to take the best ideas of OS/2, RISCOS, and others and > combine them into a human interface. Unfortunately we seem too obsessed > with creating WIMP++ to have time to break the mold and start over. FWIW, most of the ideas that Raskin talks about were implemented in the Canon Cat. I think it's going to take a hardware company selling a platform built around those ideas. Open source systems makes that less likely by providing a cheap supply of readymade conventional software. That OS/2 and the Cat are both dead doesn't help much. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 15:42:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D46A37B418 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id BC2EF14C45; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 00:42:40 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Marcus Reid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org Subject: Re: simplicity_saver References: <20011104151840.A13030@blazingdot.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Nov 2001 00:42:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20011104151840.A13030@blazingdot.com> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marcus Reid writes: > I thought I'd share this screensaver module that I wrote. I find it > interesting what the effect is achieved with only a few lines of code, > yet it looks very complicated. Why do you reinitialize the palette to the exact same values for every frame displayed, instead of initializing it only once at module load time? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 17:18:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zork.punq.net (punq.net [207.154.84.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB40237B405 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:18:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24695 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Nov 2001 01:18:40 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:18:40 -0800 From: Marcus Reid To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org Subject: Re: simplicity_saver Message-ID: <20011105171840.E20245@blazingdot.com> References: <20011104151840.A13030@blazingdot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:42:40AM +0100 Coffee-Level: high Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:42:40AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Marcus Reid writes: > > I thought I'd share this screensaver module that I wrote. I find it > > interesting what the effect is achieved with only a few lines of code, > > yet it looks very complicated. > > Why do you reinitialize the palette to the exact same values for every > frame displayed, instead of initializing it only once at module load > time? That isn't the case. simplicity_initialise() sets blanked = 0; and the palette-setting routine is wrapped in a if (blanked <= 0), and that does a blanked++ at the end. Something calls simplicity_saver() with blank != 0 when the screensaver needs to be displayed, for each frame of animation. The first time through, the palette is set, and each additional time that part is skipped. When finally (someone presses a key or something and) simplicity_saver() is called with blank = 0, blanked is set back to 0 so that the palette and video mode are set next time they're needed. -- Marcus Reid Blazingdot "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 17:44:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DEB37B416 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 8944314C2E; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:44:36 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Marcus Reid Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org Subject: Re: simplicity_saver References: <20011104151840.A13030@blazingdot.com> <20011105171840.E20245@blazingdot.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Nov 2001 02:44:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20011105171840.E20245@blazingdot.com> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marcus Reid writes: > Something calls simplicity_saver() with blank != 0 when the screensaver > needs to be displayed, for each frame of animation. The first time through, > the palette is set, and each additional time that part is skipped. When > finally (someone presses a key or something and) simplicity_saver() is > called with blank = 0, blanked is set back to 0 so that the palette and > video mode are set next time they're needed. The palette (k_pal) is a static array and only needs to be initialized once. You need to *load* it every time you blank the screen, but you only need to initialize it once. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 18:26:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F8B37B417 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C8A5501; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 20:22:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt8-216-180-71-198.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.71.198]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D81850013; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:26:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id C1957331D; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:28:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5814C1E; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:28:47 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:28:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Brett Glass Cc: Subject: Re: Aaaaargh! In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011103182049.0428f970@localhost> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > This one is so bad I can't RESIST posting a pointer to it > so that others can join in the chorus of moans and groans. > > http://cgi.mercurycenter.com/premium/comics/11_03/pc_and_pixel.gif That's the same literal reasoning as to why anyone would post a link to rotten.com. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 5 19:15:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zork.punq.net (punq.net [207.154.84.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DAC0837B405 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:15:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25283 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Nov 2001 03:15:17 -0000 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:15:17 -0800 From: Marcus Reid To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org Subject: Re: simplicity_saver Message-ID: <20011105191517.A25268@blazingdot.com> References: <20011104151840.A13030@blazingdot.com> <20011105171840.E20245@blazingdot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 02:44:35AM +0100 Coffee-Level: high Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 02:44:35AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Marcus Reid writes: > > Something calls simplicity_saver() with blank != 0 when the screensaver > > needs to be displayed, for each frame of animation. The first time through, > > the palette is set, and each additional time that part is skipped. When > > finally (someone presses a key or something and) simplicity_saver() is > > called with blank = 0, blanked is set back to 0 so that the palette and > > video mode are set next time they're needed. > > The palette (k_pal) is a static array and only needs to be initialized > once. You need to *load* it every time you blank the screen, but you > only need to initialize it once. Right you are.. Looks like I propagated a mistake that was made in fire_saver.c. New version attached, other cleanups included. Thanks. -- Marcus Reid Blazingdot "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="simplicity_saver.c" /* * Copyright (c) 2001 Marcus L. Reid * All rights reserved. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer, * without modification, immediately at the beginning of the file. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR * IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES * OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. * IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, * INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT * NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, * DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY * THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT * (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF * THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. * */ /* * 20011105 Marcus L. Reid * * written with much help from fire_saver.c * */ #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #define X_SIZE 320 #define Y_SIZE 200 static int blanked; static u_char k_pal[768]; static u_char buf[X_SIZE * (Y_SIZE + 1)]; static u_char *vid; static int z, cv; static int simplicity_saver(video_adapter_t *adp, int blank) { int x, y; /* Are we supposed to be saving the screen? */ if (blank) { /* Is the screen not in graphics mode? */ if (blanked <= 0) { set_video_mode(adp, M_VGA_CG320); load_palette(adp, k_pal); blanked++; vid = (u_char *) adp->va_window; } /* We're in graphics mode, time for simple magic. */ for (y = 0; y < Y_SIZE; cv += y++) { for (x = 0; x < X_SIZE; cv += x++) { buf[y*X_SIZE+x] = cv % 256; } } cv += z++; /* Done. */ /* blit our buffer into video ram */ memcpy(vid, buf, X_SIZE * Y_SIZE); } else { blanked = 0; } return 0; } static int simplicity_initialise(video_adapter_t *adp) { video_info_t info; int palette_index; /* check that the console is capable of running in 320x200x256 */ if (get_mode_info(adp, M_VGA_CG320, &info)) { log(LOG_NOTICE, "simplicity_saver: the console does not support M_VGA_CG320\n"); return (ENODEV); } /* build palette */ for (palette_index = 0; palette_index < 256; palette_index++) { if(palette_index < 64) { k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 0] = palette_index * 4; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 1] = 0; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 2] = 0; } else if(palette_index < 128) { k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 0] = 0; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 1] = (palette_index - 64) * 4; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 2] = 0; } else if(palette_index < 192) { k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 0] = 0; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 1] = 0; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 2] = (palette_index - 128) * 4; } else if(palette_index < 256) { k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 0] = (palette_index - 192) * 4; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 1] = (palette_index - 192) * 4; k_pal[(palette_index * 3) + 2] = (palette_index - 192) * 4; } } blanked = 0; z = 0; return 0; } static int simplicity_terminate(video_adapter_t *adp) { return 0; } static scrn_saver_t simplicity_module = { "simplicity_saver", simplicity_initialise, simplicity_terminate, simplicity_saver, NULL }; SAVER_MODULE(simplicity_saver, simplicity_module); --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Makefile KMOD= simplicity_saver SRCS= simplicity_saver.c CWARNFLAGS= -Wall -pedantic .include --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 2:59:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CBD37B417 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA6Ax7T90742; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:59:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Scheidt" Cc: "Mike Meyer" , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 02:59:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c166b2$0e5d6c60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: David Scheidt [mailto:rufus@brain.mics.net] >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:54 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Mike Meyer; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks > > >You don't think blind people go to parking garages? > Obviously a blind person would not drive a car to a parking garage and park it and leave then come back and get in it and drive off. Obviously I was referring to parking garages where it's just parked cars in the garage. Certainly, I can probably construct scenarios where a blind person might happen to go to a parking garage for some reason. But I can also construct scenarios where a man would go to a women's restroom to relieve himself, yet they do not put urinals in women's restrooms. (at least, not the ones that I've ever been in which admittedly is not many) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 3:19:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C527237B416; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:19:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA6BJhT90805; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:19:42 -0800 Message-ID: <002801c166b4$eec7c320$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <15334.58300.361356.19614@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 11:09 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks > > >Ted Mittelstaedt types: >> >> 3) Even if there was a US Supreme Court ruling that mandated ADA for >> >> commercial >> >> websites, how would it apply if the website content was not >about something >> >> that a blind person can use. >> > >> >If a blind person were acting in some capacity for a a sighted person >> >- i.e., considering buying a gift, or researching options or some such >> >thing. >> > >> >> Hmmm... but how would a blind person research which porno site had the >> better pictures? Or how would a blind person select a modern art >> painting for a gift? > >By the description that would be attached to the image(s) in a >properly designed site. > OK, try this one: "Modern art painting - bloches of color like paint or bird droppings on canvas" It tells you absolutely nothing about the painting because the whole point of such paintings is to evoke an emotional response and that will be different for each person. Without being able to see the painting you cannot get an emotional response, and any description that lists what emotional response your supposed to get is going to be wrong for anyone but the author, besides most likely being objectionable to the "artist" (who is going to rebel at a description that tells people how to feel when they view his painting anyway) In short, there's going to be some, probably few, graphics that have no coorespondence to text and that a blind person cannot use. Applying access rules to them is very weird, to say the least. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 3:44:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2012137B417; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA6BhwT90853; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:43:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:43:57 -0800 Message-ID: <002901c166b8$51faefa0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <15334.59771.604079.307131@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 11:33 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks > > >The correct solution is to detect the feature - or lack thereof - in >question, and respond appropriately to that. See http://www.idiom.com/~mwm/supported-myth.html > for a longer essay on >that topic. [That's a temporary location while I'm waiting on a the >hardware needed to fix my server.] > Yes, I agree that this is the correct way, but I have little hope that web designers that are dead-set to code to specific browsers are going to give a damn about doing it the right way. These are designers that don't give a rip about the users accessing the site, they are doing what they are doing purely for the site owner's benefit. > >Actually, those are two different points. At least, I think they >are. The first is a complaint that many web sites are poorly designed, >and don't make use of the ability to display an alternative if the >media used isn't supported by the browser. The second is trying to >make the point that the information provided may not be usable by the >person doing the browsing. > Correct. >Which ignores the many cases where the person driving the browser >isn't the final consumer of the information. > But this also ignores the point that some kinds of information must be used interactively, in short the person driving the browser MUST be the final consumer of the information. For example, how would ADA requirements for blind-accessiblity be useful for a on-line certification test for, say, a hunter? (gun safety) Are you going to argue that states that require hunters to pass online gun safety tests before getting Elk tags are going to have to make sure that those tests are blind-accessible? Is this so that the blind people can pass the gun safety test so they can get an Elk tag and go out in the woods with their gun and hunt it? > >I don't think you've made your case, for three different reasons. The >one that's been discussed is that it's hard to determine exactly when >some page would never be used by someone who is disabled. Ah. So, because something's hard to do we are going to take the cop-out excuse and end up with stupid things like online gun-safety tests that blind people can take so that people that monitor ADA compliance don't have to think. >The second >is that we've been concentrating on the blind, but there are other >impairments that effect the browsing experience that need to be >considered. > Quite true. I'm sure that wheelchair accessible people are going to be lining up to get Elk tags too, right after the blind hunters. This is my point again - you say it needs to be considered, yet you aren't advocating consideration, you seem to be just advocating a blanket "lets slap on ADA to everything regardless and be done with it" >Finally, as someone who consults professionally on creating accessible >web sites, it's that the cost of creating an accessible web site is >*very low*. Adding ramps to a building changes the look of the >building, and may be a fundamental design change. All the W3C-designed >standards provide for an alternative presentation if the browser >doesn't use the primary one. All it takes to build an accessible web >site is *using* those things with intelligence. Unfortunately, web >site designers seem to be seriously lacking in that last ingredient. > Sigh. You know the saddest thing that I find in this whole thread is that at one time web designing used to be a respectible profession. But look at how all the idiots and their crap websites have wrecked it. Today, you cannot trust an arbitrary web designer to be intelligent enough to use their brains and think for a change. So, the only answer seems to be to ram ADA compliance down all of their throats. It might keep the idiots inline but it's going to be a pain for the rest of them because sure as shooting there's going to be a blind person bitching about not being able to take the gun safety test and get his Elk tag. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 3:49:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E20F37B418 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 03:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 62335 invoked by uid 100); 6 Nov 2001 11:49:38 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15335.52818.493844.899017@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:49:38 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <002801c166b4$eec7c320$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <15334.58300.361356.19614@guru.mired.org> <002801c166b4$eec7c320$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] > >Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >> >> 3) Even if there was a US Supreme Court ruling that mandated ADA for > >> >> commercial > >> >> websites, how would it apply if the website content was not > >about something > >> >> that a blind person can use. > >> >If a blind person were acting in some capacity for a a sighted person > >> >- i.e., considering buying a gift, or researching options or some such > >> >thing. > >> Hmmm... but how would a blind person research which porno site had the > >> better pictures? Or how would a blind person select a modern art > >> painting for a gift? > >By the description that would be attached to the image(s) in a > >properly designed site. > OK, try this one: "Modern art painting - bloches of color like paint or > bird droppings on canvas" It tells you absolutely nothing about the > painting because the whole point of such paintings is to evoke an emotional > response and that will be different for each person. That's not a "properly designed site" (ain't vague descriptions wonderful?), as indicated by the fact that the description tells you absolutely nothing about the painting. For modern art, whatever is applicable of artist, title, date, style and period would probably be appropriate, and would make for a proper site design. That would allow a blind person to order a print for a friend, knowing that the work is by the friends favorite artist, etc. > In short, there's going to be some, probably few, graphics that have no > coorespondence to text and that a blind person cannot use. Applying access > rules to them is very weird, to say the least. Actually, there are a *lot* of graphics on the web that a blind person has no use for. Then again, neither does anyone else - they're just ducks. The correct alternative text for them is an empty string, so they don't clutter up the textual presentation of the page. That's the *easy* part of making a site accessible - make sure that every graphic that has no real function is replaced by a blank string as it's alternative. Figuring out what to replace the ones that have a function with is the hard part :-). http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 4:23:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4992337B417 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 04:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 62988 invoked by uid 100); 6 Nov 2001 12:23:39 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15335.54859.676721.164993@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:23:39 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <002901c166b8$51faefa0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <15334.59771.604079.307131@guru.mired.org> <002901c166b8$51faefa0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >The correct solution is to detect the feature - or lack thereof - in > >question, and respond appropriately to that. See >http://www.idiom.com/~mwm/supported-myth.html > for a longer essay on > >that topic. [That's a temporary location while I'm waiting on a the > >hardware needed to fix my server.] > Yes, I agree that this is the correct way, but I have little hope that > web designers that are dead-set to code to specific browsers are going > to give a damn about doing it the right way. These are designers that > don't give a rip about the users accessing the site, they are doing what > they are doing purely for the site owner's benefit. I think most of them are doing what they are doing solely for the *designers* benefit. If the site owner realized what was being done, they'd probably want it changed. > For example, how would ADA requirements for blind-accessiblity be useful > for a on-line certification test for, say, a hunter? (gun safety) Are > you going to argue that states that require hunters to pass online > gun safety tests before getting Elk tags are going to have to make sure > that those tests are blind-accessible? Is this so that the blind people > can pass the gun safety test so they can get an Elk tag and go out in > the woods with their gun and hunt it? Actually, such as site is already required to be ADA compliant, as it's run with public funds. On the other hand, the DoJ seldom acts unless there is a complaint from a citizen. So if you get a nimrod designer for such a site, chances are that nothing will happen. > >I don't think you've made your case, for three different reasons. The > >one that's been discussed is that it's hard to determine exactly when > >some page would never be used by someone who is disabled. > Ah. So, because something's hard to do we are going to take the cop-out > excuse and end up with stupid things like online gun-safety tests that > blind people can take so that people that monitor ADA compliance don't have to > think. That's funny, considering that you're arguing for a position that requires a lot of "not thinking". You're using not thinking of any cases where such a site might be useful to argue that you should be able to not think about making the sight accessible. No, the real argument is that it's harder to decide that a making a site ADA-compliant is useless than it is to make it ADA-compliant, so why not do the lesser amount of work, and just do it right in the first place? > >The second > >is that we've been concentrating on the blind, but there are other > >impairments that effect the browsing experience that need to be > >considered. > Quite true. I'm sure that wheelchair accessible people are going to > be lining up to get Elk tags too, right after the blind hunters. Sigh. Sure, grab another idiotic example. Why not consider some *real* examples that you can run into of people that the ADA guidelines help: people who are colorblind, people who are deaf, people who are nearsighted, etc. Or consider some of the people that being ADA-compliant help that *aren't* disabled, but are on the cutting edge - why shouldn't I be able to take the test from my cell phone just because the designer was an idiot and decided that all the real content could be put in a graphic with no alternative text? > This is my point again - you say it needs to be considered, yet you > aren't advocating consideration, you seem to be just advocating a blanket > "lets slap on ADA to everything regardless and be done with it" No, I'm not arguing for ADA compliance on everything. I'm pointing out where it does - and possibly does not - apply. The thing is, if you design a web site for the WORLD wide web, and not for the web balkanized by browser type, your site will be ADA compliant. In other words, if the web site is properly designed to interoperate with the hundreds - if not thousands - of different agents that read web pages, ignoring the ADA completely, then the web site will be ADA compliant. No special effort is needed. I will argue that all sites should be so designed, because the web site designer doesn't control the browser or it's settings. > >Finally, as someone who consults professionally on creating accessible > >web sites, it's that the cost of creating an accessible web site is > >*very low*. Adding ramps to a building changes the look of the > >building, and may be a fundamental design change. All the W3C-designed > >standards provide for an alternative presentation if the browser > >doesn't use the primary one. All it takes to build an accessible web > >site is *using* those things with intelligence. Unfortunately, web > >site designers seem to be seriously lacking in that last ingredient. > Sigh. You know the saddest thing that I find in this whole thread is > that at one time web designing used to be a respectible profession. When was that? Before the introduction of Mosaic? > But look at how all the idiots and their crap websites have wrecked it. Yup. > Today, you cannot trust an arbitrary web designer to be intelligent > enough to use their brains and think for a change. So, the only answer > seems to be to ram ADA compliance down all of their throats. It might > keep the idiots inline but it's going to be a pain for the rest of them > because sure as shooting there's going to be a blind person bitching > about not being able to take the gun safety test and get his Elk tag. It won't be a pain for the ones who aren't idiots, because their web sites have been and always will be compliant, because they'll be doing their jobs right. And if an idiot designs the online gun safety test and someone complains to the DoJ, they may just have to go back and do the job right. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 5:15: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA8E37B418; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:14:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA6DEsT91082; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:14:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:14:53 -0800 Message-ID: <005201c166c5$06164dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <15335.54859.676721.164993@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] >Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 4:24 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks > > > >The thing is, if you design a web site for the WORLD wide web, and not >for the web balkanized by browser type, your site will be ADA >compliant. In other words, if the web site is properly designed to >interoperate with the hundreds - if not thousands - of different >agents that read web pages, ignoring the ADA completely, then the web >site will be ADA compliant. No special effort is needed. > Then how about instead of mandating ADA compliance, you mandate EITHER ADA compliance, or W3C compliance? I'd rather see ADA compliance mandate a website comply with a public standard than with it's own set of special rules. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 6:36: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEA837B417; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b160.otenet.gr [212.205.244.168]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fA6EZrN08330; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:35:53 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA6ETlq11411; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:29:47 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:29:46 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011106162946.C1331@hades.hell.gr> References: <15334.59771.604079.307131@guru.mired.org> <002901c166b8$51faefa0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002901c166b8$51faefa0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 03:43:57AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > For example, how would ADA requirements for blind-accessiblity be useful > for a on-line certification test for, say, a hunter? (gun safety) Are > you going to argue that states that require hunters to pass online > gun safety tests before getting Elk tags are going to have to make sure > that those tests are blind-accessible? Is this so that the blind people > can pass the gun safety test so they can get an Elk tag and go out in > the woods with their gun and hunt it? Although a test that certifies users for hunting is well, a bit inappropriate for blind people, in a site that offers a variety of tests and certificates, where at least some apply to blind people, keeping a consistent look and feel to the entire site, might mandate making all tests use the same overall design. Then, all tests will probably be accessible to blind people, although some reason should be applied to which tests have any validity at all, since I'd hate being shot down like an Elk by a blind albeit certified Elk hunter :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 8:45:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ABED37B417 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from potentialtech.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fA6GfMT13254 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:41:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:47:30 -0500 From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.3) Gecko/20010914 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Request for opinions: what is spam Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been having a tough couple of months and I just had some things happen today that are causing me to re-evaluate some of my beliefs. One thing, central to this, is where do you draw the line between promotion and spam? I'll give the example that really got me thinking: Got an email today through the "moreinfo@" address for my company, which is listed on the web site on the contact page. The email stated that "I got your email from a list server". Now, technically this is a lie, because the "moreinfo@" address is _never_ used to _send_ mail, so it would never appear on any list server. I can see what _might_ have been done, however. Notice my sig below. Now, that'll be on list servers for any list I post to and this guy may have stopped by the web site, checked out the contact page for the address, and sent me the mail. So my first question is: "Is this spam?" But the deeper, underlying question is: "Where do I draw the line with promotional activities?" This is _the_ key question for my business right now, because we _must_ promote to be successful, but there are obviously some ways of promotion that are simply unethical. An example is that I recently posted to the jobs@freebsd.com list an announcement about my company and that we're seeking new customers. To me, that's what that particular list is for. I would never have posted such an announcement to questions@ or any other FreeBSD list. I received one complaint that it was an inapprorpiate posting, and while I don't know how many people subscribe to that list, I'm assuming that that's a pretty low percentage that I offended. (On the flip side, I'm wishing I had never posted it, since it resulted in no new business for me. IOW it was totally ineffective and made me 1 enemy) I don't want to get too long winded at this point, but beyond the spam questions, what kind of promotion do you guys consider legetimate and what do you consider "over the top"? How about cold-calling? Our current budget simply won't allow for magazine or similar advertising at this point, so what should we do? -- Bill Moran Potential Technology http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 8:54:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27CF37B418 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (emily.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.21]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA6Gruw51141; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 18:53:56 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3BE815A4.44939BBB@duth.gr> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 18:53:56 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: I've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam References: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran wrote [heavily snipped]: > Got an email today through the "moreinfo@" address for my > company, which is listed on the web site on the contact > page. The email stated that "I got your email from a > list server". > > Now, technically this is a lie, because the "moreinfo@" address > is _never_ used to _send_ mail, so it would never appear on > any list server. Perhaps it's got something to do with me being paranoid, but I read this as "I got your email form a server we spammers use that hosts a list of valid email addresses so heeeeeeuge, you wouldn't believe". > So my first question is: "Is this spam?" Yep, it definitely is, I received a similarly worded mail recently, and it was addressed to a sales@ account that it's only sign of existense is a link on a corporate site. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 10:50:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tfcci.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17D437B418 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:50:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.tfcci.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA02807; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:50:32 -0500 Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by mail.tfcci.com via smap (V2.1/2.1c) id xma002803; Tue, 6 Nov 01 13:50:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:49:29 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Bill Moran Cc: Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam In-Reply-To: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Howdy, Did a little googling and came up with some of the following links: MAPS Definition : http://mail-abuse.org/standard.html CAUCE FAQ on SPAM : http://www.cauce.org/about/faq.shtml There is also a petition set up by Ronald F. Guilmette which attempts to come up with a commonly-accepted definition of SPAM: http://www.monkeys.com/spam-defined/definition.shtml As for your advertising problems, have you tried to do targeted snail-mail mailings? (Of course with the postal system in it's current state that might not be all that reliable to begin with... ) Cheers! On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Bill Moran wrote: > I've been having a tough couple of months and I just had some > things happen today that are causing me to re-evaluate some of > my beliefs. > > One thing, central to this, is where do you draw the line > between promotion and spam? > > I'll give the example that really got me thinking: > > Got an email today through the "moreinfo@" address for my > company, which is listed on the web site on the contact > page. The email stated that "I got your email from a > list server". > Now, technically this is a lie, because the "moreinfo@" address > is _never_ used to _send_ mail, so it would never appear on > any list server. > I can see what _might_ have been done, however. Notice my > sig below. Now, that'll be on list servers for any list I post > to and this guy may have stopped by the web site, checked out > the contact page for the address, and sent me the mail. > > So my first question is: "Is this spam?" > > But the deeper, underlying question is: "Where do I draw the line > with promotional activities?" This is _the_ key question for my > business right now, because we _must_ promote to be successful, > but there are obviously some ways of promotion that are simply > unethical. > An example is that I recently posted to the jobs@freebsd.com list > an announcement about my company and that we're seeking new customers. > To me, that's what that particular list is for. I would never > have posted such an announcement to questions@ or any other FreeBSD > list. I received one complaint that it was an inapprorpiate posting, > and while I don't know how many people subscribe to that list, I'm > assuming that that's a pretty low percentage that I offended. > (On the flip side, I'm wishing I had never posted it, since it resulted > in no new business for me. IOW it was totally ineffective and made > me 1 enemy) > I don't want to get too long winded at this point, but beyond the spam > questions, what kind of promotion do you guys consider legetimate and > what do you consider "over the top"? How about cold-calling? Our > current budget simply won't allow for magazine or similar advertising > at this point, so what should we do? > > - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE76DDGtZTBgtmnGNERAjKlAJ9WReAYXGjC96cHTYyp13ZbUlsEQwCfcfm9 DS9vWOIvivtT1eM7Pe0PyEU= =WjU9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 11:36: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.moondog.org (freebsd.moondog.org [208.186.117.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2369937B419 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from elden@localhost) by freebsd.moondog.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA6Ja1Y44780 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:36:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from efbsd@moondog.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.moondog.org: elden set sender to efbsd@moondog.org using -f Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:36:01 -0800 From: Elden Fenison To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: mailing list newsgroups? Message-ID: <20011106113601.F34234@moondog.org> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-chat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings, I've noticed that on the news server I use, there are newsgroups that correspond to the official FreeBSD.org mailing lists. They are named like: mailing.freebsd.questions mailing.freebsd.chat Can anyone tell me about these newsgroups? Are they gated to the mailing list in some fashion? Or is the gate only a one-way thing? In other words, do posts in the newsgroups end up in the mailing list and visa versa? I'm thinking I'd rather read the freebsd mailing lists in newsgroup format, but I don't want to lose functionality. -- -=Elden=- http://www.moondog.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 11:41:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7AF37B417 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.244.107.44.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.107.44] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 161C6C-00047u-00; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:41:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE83D1A.52D2851D@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 11:42:18 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam References: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran wrote: > > I've been having a tough couple of months and I just had some > things happen today that are causing me to re-evaluate some of > my beliefs. > > One thing, central to this, is where do you draw the line > between promotion and spam? > > I'll give the example that really got me thinking: > > Got an email today through the "moreinfo@" address for my > company, which is listed on the web site on the contact > page. The email stated that "I got your email from a > list server". If it was not solicited by you requesting information from them directly, and you do not have a preexisiting business relationship which they could impose upon, then it is SPAM, regardless of from which public place/service they obtained your address. The primary definition only requires that the email itself be unsolicited, either implicitly or explicitly. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 11:54: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2F637B41A; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id NAA39049782 Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:52:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA53437; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:54:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:54:06 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: David Scheidt , Mike Meyer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks Message-ID: <20011106115406.B53379@darkstar.gte.net> References: <004201c165e6$75c34720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <004201c165e6$75c34720$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 02:41:43AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 02:41:43AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: David Scheidt [mailto:rufus@brain.mics.net] > >Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:14 AM > >To: Ted Mittelstaedt > >Cc: Mike Meyer; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks > > > > > >Most blind people aren't consumers of pornorgraphic images. You might find > >a blind person who wanted to gather some images to give to someone else, or > >something like that. > > > > But even then they cannot make selection decisions because they > cannot see what they are gathering and have no idea if the image is > a real picture or a picture of an advertisement or is even worth > looking at. So I think that > because of this reason it's impossible to argue that everything > on the Internet is usable by the blind and thus must be made > accessible. > > > > >It's a lot more complicated than that. First, it's not at all clear that > >were the ADA to apply to commercial web sites that it would be acceptable to > >require tha you use IE, as opposed to any generally accepted solution. > > Let's be clear on this, it's impossible for the > website to require IE - all the website can do is require that > the user use a web browser that appears to be IE. Since the browser is > operated by the user, it's really in the power of the user to send back any > browser ID string they feel like, support whatever active x ie supports, etc. > Any accessible browser that someone might develop could be made to emulate IE, > and in fact would have to do this to make it as accessible as possible. > (since the entire point of such a program would be to give access, spoofing > the ID is just another component of the access) How much of an incentive do companies have to make "spoofing" a browser a violation of the DMCA? -snip- > > > Frankly, I've never met a sighted person, upon seeing Flash on a website, > exclaim "Wow that really is something that really needs to be on this > website" The response generally is more along the lines of "get this > ^&*$ off the screen" I've gone to flash based sites just to see the flash. The "fatkid" stuff was good for a few laughs. > > So you won't get any arguements out of me if the Supreme Court tells all > commercial entities that Flash cannot be used because it doesen't meet > ADA. On the contrary I'll be jumping for joy. > > Keep in mind that I'm not arguing against a court judgement that forces the > issue of ADA on commercial websites. If one came down everyone, including > sighted persons, would benefit because there's far too much crappy HTML on > commercial sites as it is. For this purpose, was gopher better mosaic? > > What I do think, though, is that it's very easy to push this thing way too > far, much easier than something mundane like building access. It's easy > enough to argue that public buildings need ramp access - not only is it good > for the handicapped, but there's lots of normal everyday things like > deliveries on handcarts that don't go through the loading dock and why should > the minimum-wage UPS delivery kid have to throw out his back carrying loads up > steps all day long? But, while ADA access to commercial websites really needs > to be written into the law, it also needs to have a whole lot more exceptions > in it than building access. > > > Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com > Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide > Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 12: 4:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CDD5D37B405 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:04:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 72403 invoked by uid 100); 6 Nov 2001 20:04:39 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15336.16983.259208.90433@guru.mired.org> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 14:04:39 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <005201c166c5$06164dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <15335.54859.676721.164993@guru.mired.org> <005201c166c5$06164dc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] > >The thing is, if you design a web site for the WORLD wide web, and not > >for the web balkanized by browser type, your site will be ADA > >compliant. In other words, if the web site is properly designed to > >interoperate with the hundreds - if not thousands - of different > >agents that read web pages, ignoring the ADA completely, then the web > >site will be ADA compliant. No special effort is needed. > Then how about instead of mandating ADA compliance, you mandate EITHER > ADA compliance, or W3C compliance? I'd rather see ADA compliance mandate > a website comply with a public standard than with it's own set of special > rules. By that, I take it you mean the W3C's accessibility guidelines that can be found at . I'd say no. The federal guidelines - used for federal government sites - don't mandate what technology be used; they mandate that there there be accessible options available for all disabled - not just blind - users. The W3C guidelines tell you how to do that using the technology available at the time they were written. Would you rather have "Your site must have accessability options", or "every img that carries content must have a meaningful alt"? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 12: 6:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22D737B405 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53EE5BCF5; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16760; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:06:07 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA6K44D59918; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:04:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam References: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 06 Nov 2001 12:04:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: <3r3d3racp8.d3r@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 50 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran writes: > One thing, central to this, is where do you draw the line > between promotion and spam? If you should expect to annoy someone by sending them a message which they didn't ask for or deserve in some way, then the message is either spam or as bad as spam. Spam probably has the added feature of annoying a lot of people, but any one recipient can seldom know or care about that; it's just as annoying, though most people will be more tolerant of unwanted e-mail which they suspect is not widely addressed. It's still a fuzzy line, but since the value of e-mail promotion is very low unless you are VERY annoying, it should be pretty easy to just draw your line very close to zero. You have to judge your market and your spamees. Are they going to be annoyed by your e-mail? Some might not. Like freebsd lists which get spam about freebsd books. > So my first question is: "Is this spam?" You can't know for sure, but it's a pretty safe assumption, depending on what your reaction to it will be. > But the deeper, underlying question is: "Where do I draw the line > with promotional activities?" You don't send promotional e-mail to people who haven't asked for it. If someone asks about gizmo-thingy, and you sell a one, send to them or the list they asked on. Even that has to be done judiciously. > An example is that I recently posted to the jobs@freebsd.com list > an announcement about my company and that we're seeking new customers. That list is for seeking new employees and new employers. I don't see any way you could justify seeking new customers on that list. > Our > current budget simply won't allow for magazine or similar advertising > at this point, so what should we do? I'll bet you already know enough of your options; you get the big bucks for making the correct choices, through good judgement or luck. Advertising and word of mouth (among customers and investors) are the only options I know of. You'll need to spend some time getting no/low-cost, low-value advertising and some time working on your high-value word of mouth, but I doubt that anyone can tell you where to draw that line either. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 12:10:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E5237B42B for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-209.244.107.44.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.244.107.44] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 161CXP-0000dM-00; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:09:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3BE843AE.3F354814@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 12:10:22 -0800 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam References: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran wrote: Just a P.S.... > An example is that I recently posted to the jobs@freebsd.com list > an announcement about my company and that we're seeking new customers. > To me, that's what that particular list is for. I would never > have posted such an announcement to questions@ or any other FreeBSD > list. I received one complaint that it was an inapprorpiate posting, > and while I don't know how many people subscribe to that list, I'm > assuming that that's a pretty low percentage that I offended. > (On the flip side, I'm wishing I had never posted it, since it resulted > in no new business for me. IOW it was totally ineffective and made > me 1 enemy) If it's not a job offer, or a resume, then it didn't belong on the list. Your posting came close to being an ad, but could be taken as a FreeBSD consultant looking for a job. The issue, I think, is that it's expected that the list will be used to solicit jobs for individuals, not businesses. For businesses, there are several web locations that you could post your company as offering FreeBSD related services. So you at least skated the edge there, but (IMO), didn't cross the line, but could have phrased it as a "looking for work", rather than a "looking for customers". > I don't want to get too long winded at this point, but beyond the spam > questions, what kind of promotion do you guys consider legetimate and > what do you consider "over the top"? How about cold-calling? Our > current budget simply won't allow for magazine or similar advertising > at this point, so what should we do? Cold calling is legally permissable, but most people don't respond well to it, if you are talking over the telephone; it's legal, because, unlike email, it doesn't generally cost the recipient of the telephone call. Cold calling in person is a much better bet, particularly for consulting services. For a humorous look at the general dislike for cold-calling, you should see: http://members.sigecom.net/theclan/Taliban.html I think that you are facing the classic bootstrapping problem all businesses face. There are several ways around it, if you legitimately believe in your business. One way is factoring, where you sell your accounts receivable at a discount to get money to spend on marketing today. This is effectively the same as a short term business loan. There is also bridge or mezzanbine financing, if you intend to go public, and there is always V.C., if you are prepared to grow your business quickly. There are also SBA programs, and there are existing relationship marketing programs, where you become a member of a group where other merchants are members, and leverage that to get customers. If you were venture funded, I'd say the following formula has served many companies well: out of every $3 you spend, spend $2 of that $3 on marketing/sales/brand management. This seems like an insane number (consider that if you are just starting out, it just probably tripled your initial capital requirements!), but it is what you should expect to have to spend to succeed. In general, there is no one true answer; you have to be prepared for the long haul, and you have to be prepared to work at it. SPAM and cold calling will lose you more business than you gain: a person who has a good experience with a company will, on the average, tell two people about the good experience. A person that has a bad experience will, on average, tell _twenty_ people. Your company's good name is a valuable asset; if you intend to use it, _invest_ it, do not _spend_ it foolishly. I recommend the following books as "must read" for all new entrepreneurs: Guerrilla P.R. A complaint is a gift Selling the dream And the more technical business building book: New Venture Creation Good luck on your business. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 12:52: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com [65.24.0.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B341A37B416 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from potentialtech.com (dhcp065-024-023-038.columbus.rr.com [65.24.23.38]) by clmboh1-smtp3.columbus.rr.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fA6KlhT10686; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:47:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3BE84DDE.8090201@potentialtech.com> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 15:53:50 -0500 From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.3) Gecko/20010914 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam References: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> <3r3d3racp8.d3r@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Bill Moran writes: > >>One thing, central to this, is where do you draw the line >>between promotion and spam? > > > You have to judge your market and your spamees. Are they going to be > annoyed by your e-mail? Some might not. Like freebsd lists which get > spam about freebsd books. I really wasn't considering bulk mailing, but looking at things that would be borderline, such as: I see request for help on a mailing list, so I privately email about providing consulting services. I'm sure there are other examples, and this is the "fuzzy" area you speak about. You even state below that such things have to be done "judiciously" and for the most part, I have avoided doing them at all. > You don't send promotional e-mail to people who haven't asked for it. > If someone asks about gizmo-thingy, and you sell a one, send to them > or the list they asked on. Even that has to be done judiciously. You're sticking strictly to email, which _was_ the original question, but I've been thinking about promotion on a broader scope. Cold-calling for example. I don't know of anyone who likes getting cold sales calls at work. Cold-calls don't bring up the same ethical question as spam, but they still "annoy people" and does that make them right/wrong or are they even effective? >>An example is that I recently posted to the jobs@freebsd.com list >>an announcement about my company and that we're seeking new customers > > That list is for seeking new employees and new employers. I don't see > any way you could justify seeking new customers on that list. "freebsd-jobs FreeBSD employment and consulting opportunities." Which is all I could find on the web site concerning that list. Perhaps that charter should be better defined. If I could make the mistake, so could anyone. >>Our >>current budget simply won't allow for magazine or similar advertising >>at this point, so what should we do? > > I'll bet you already know enough of your options; you get the big bucks > for making the correct choices, through good judgement or luck. True, but making the wrong decisions could ruin us at this stage in our growth. It's a little scary, but I guess that's all part of the game. Thanks for the feedback. -- Bill Moran Potential Technology http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 13:20:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8535637B405 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fA6LKcg99620; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:20:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:20:38 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam Message-ID: <20011107082037.U2540@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Bill Moran , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com>; from wmoran@potentialtech.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:47:30AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I pay 20 cents per megabyte at home, and 50 cents at work. For me, there is no such thing as spam, only stealing. Is it possible that your desire to send me an email might be greater than my desire to pay cash to receive it? Then don't. Just don't. Never. And that includes the religious political and moralistic self styled do-gooder loonies as well as those who think that I would have to love their funny .BMP because they do. They all steal from me. They are all criminals. And all I can do is pay and hate. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 13:44:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8937A37B416 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30349BC84; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06256; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:44:27 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id fA6LgKS59935; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 13:42:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Bill Moran Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for opinions: what is spam References: <3BE81422.7080304@potentialtech.com> <3r3d3racp8.d3r@localhost.localdomain> <3BE84DDE.8090201@potentialtech.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 06 Nov 2001 13:42:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3BE84DDE.8090201@potentialtech.com> Message-ID: Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Moran writes: > Gary W. Swearingen wrote: ... > at work. Cold-calls don't bring up the same ethical question as spam, > but they still "annoy people" and does that make them right/wrong or > are they even effective? I've heard of cold-calling for thirty years without hearing them considered unethical. Annoying, yes, but just business as usual. Their difficulty and inefficiency keeps them to a tolerable level. As for spaming people who have asked questions, I WOULD be annoyed and consider it smap unless your promotion was attached to some info of value (in which case list-posting is OK in my book too, if the promotion is discrete) or your expertise related to my problem was something I couldn't get from many other FreeBSD consultants. If I want a consultant, I'll look for FreeBSD consultant web sites or ask for one. > "freebsd-jobs FreeBSD employment and consulting opportunities." I see your point now; I hadn't considered your business. You're seeking an employer in some sense. Maybe that's accepted, even encouraged, on that list; I don't know. People probably wouldn't care unless dozens of FreeBSD consultants were posting per day. It doesn't seem kosher to me, but I also don't care much. > Which is all I could find on the web site concerning that list. Perhaps > that charter should be better defined. If I could make the mistake, so > could anyone. I see that the list has no charter entry at all in http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/eresources.html You could propose a suggested charter (to suit youself) and see if many people on that list have a problem with it. If not, submit a handbook PR for it. (Consider it payment for services rendered.) Preferably include a patch, but just some text is OK, or you could even just mail it to freebsd-doc@freebsd.org and someone will probably do the grunt work for you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 15:10:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-80.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DCB37B405 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E694666BD5; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:10:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:10:33 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Elden Fenison Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: mailing list newsgroups? Message-ID: <20011106151033.A33467@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20011106113601.F34234@moondog.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011106113601.F34234@moondog.org>; from efbsd@moondog.org on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:36:01AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:36:01AM -0800, Elden Fenison wrote: > Greetings, >=20 > I've noticed that on the news server I use, there are newsgroups that > correspond to the official FreeBSD.org mailing lists. They are named > like: >=20 > mailing.freebsd.questions > mailing.freebsd.chat >=20 > Can anyone tell me about these newsgroups? Only your news administrators can, since they're local to you. Kris --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE76G3pWry0BWjoQKURAlIHAKCJr9iAF2qWhZiPqLb9rxR8y6CVHwCfUrOs 7750Qve5vnYF+5lpepc6xBE= =OX2r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Dxnq1zWXvFF0Q93v-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 15:18:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.moondog.org (freebsd.moondog.org [208.186.117.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C8037B405 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from elden@localhost) by freebsd.moondog.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA6NIbl46604 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:18:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from efbsd@moondog.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freebsd.moondog.org: elden set sender to efbsd@moondog.org using -f Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:18:37 -0800 From: Elden Fenison To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: mailing list newsgroups? Message-ID: <20011106151837.C46063@moondog.org> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-chat References: <20011106113601.F34234@moondog.org> <20011106151033.A33467@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Kris Kennaway [11/06/2001 15:10]: > Only your news administrators can, since they're local to you. Well, we use Supernews... I doubt they are "local to me"... but I get what you're saying. My earlier post here in the list showed up in the newsgroup, but I replied to it in the newsgroup and as of yet, it has not shown up here in the list. So it seems to be a one-way gate. -- -=Elden=- http://www.moondog.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 16:39: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.moondog.org (freebsd.moondog.org [208.186.117.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AB537B417 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from elden@localhost) by freebsd.moondog.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA70cu457381; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from elden@moondog.org) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 16:38:56 -0800 From: Elden Fenison To: Kris Kennaway Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: mailing list newsgroups? Message-ID: <20011106163856.D46063@moondog.org> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Kennaway , FreeBSD-chat References: <20011106113601.F34234@moondog.org> <20011106151033.A33467@xor.obsecurity.org> <20011106151837.C46063@moondog.org> <20011106162436.A33697@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011106162436.A33697@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 04:24:36PM -0800 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Kris Kennaway [11/06/2001 16:24]: > Yeah, local to you in the sense that they're a service of your news > provider and not a global service provided by FreeBSD. Yeah, I guess I thought Supernews was big enough that there would have been knowledge among the list participants that all the freebsd mailing lists are being gated to usenet. But as I mentioned in a followup post... it does seem to be only one way. :( I personally find the common method for posting to the FreeBSD mailing lists to be a little confusing... with trying to figure out who all to carbon copy on a message. It would be so much easier if posting was limited to subscribers... then one could just post to the list and forget it. Oh well. :) -- -=Elden=- http://www.moondog.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 21:38:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3393937B419; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA75cFT93011; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:38:15 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c1674e$6587e780$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <15336.16983.259208.90433@guru.mired.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mike Meyer >Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:05 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks > >> Then how about instead of mandating ADA compliance, you mandate EITHER >> ADA compliance, or W3C compliance? I'd rather see ADA compliance mandate >> a website comply with a public standard than with it's own set of special >> rules. > >By that, I take it you mean the W3C's accessibility guidelines that >can be found at . > >I'd say no. The federal guidelines - used for federal government sites >- don't mandate what technology be used; they mandate that there there >be accessible options available for all disabled - not just blind - >users. The W3C guidelines tell you how to do that using the technology >available at the time they were written. Would you rather have "Your >site must have accessability options", or "every img that carries >content must have a meaningful alt"? > The problem with sentence 1 (which I assume is the fed guidelines) is that it's too easy to slime your way out of it. The web designer/site owner could argue that since there's a web browser that has a braille driver out there that he doesen't have to bother changing his coding as long is his site renders in some fashion on the braille browser. This ignores that because of crummy html the rendering is a much more unpleasant experience for the blind person than for the sighted person. Although it's been a while since I've looked at w3c, since it's a standard it surely is worthless if not updated to stay current with current technology. Forcing sites to stay compliant with it to remain OK under ADA gives a yardstick that is very definite, there's no wiggle room for the designer to slime out of it. If the designers have a beef then they can take it up with the standards body and have a public discussion that settles things rather than some backroom sealed deal (which is how the government seems to like to handle things) I liken this to the ADA requirements for ramps for building access. The standard requires a ramp, but the codes also specify how wide and the degree of incline of the ramp. You cannot for example put in a 45 degree ramp that extends 6 feet and is 6 inches wide and claim that it makes the building wheelchair accessible. So why would you advocate that the websites that fall under ADA requirements be given more wide lattitude than ADA gives for building access? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 22: 7:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from db-cvad-1-tmp.yahoo.com (db-cvad-1-tmp.yahoo.com [216.145.48.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB91737B405 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:07:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from master.gorean.org (root@master.gorean.org [10.0.0.2]) by db-cvad-1-tmp.yahoo.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA767Hw28072; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by master.gorean.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA767FG01225; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:07:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: master.gorean.org: doug owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:07:15 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-X-Sender: doug@master.gorean.org To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak Cc: "Walter C. Pelissero" , Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <20011031220604.B75757@lublin.t1.pl> Message-ID: <20011106220657.B1061-100000@master.gorean.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, [iso-8859-2] Micha=B3 Pasternak wrote: > Walter C. Pelissero [Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 12:36:25PM +0000]: > > Mostly relevant to people living in UK: > > > > =09 http://www.pelissero.surf3.net/natwest.html > > Could you explain me why do you think that topic has something to do with > FreeBSD? =09Nothing is off topic for freebsd-chat. --=20 "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." =09- George W. Bush, President of the United States September 20, 2001 Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 22:56:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B675737B416 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:56:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 84284 invoked by uid 100); 7 Nov 2001 06:56:15 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15336.56079.519166.80672@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:56:15 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks In-Reply-To: <000001c1674e$6587e780$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <15336.16983.259208.90433@guru.mired.org> <000001c1674e$6587e780$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >> Then how about instead of mandating ADA compliance, you mandate EITHER > >> ADA compliance, or W3C compliance? I'd rather see ADA compliance mandate > >> a website comply with a public standard than with it's own set of special > >> rules. > >By that, I take it you mean the W3C's accessibility guidelines that > >can be found at . > >I'd say no. The federal guidelines - used for federal government sites > >- don't mandate what technology be used; they mandate that there there > >be accessible options available for all disabled - not just blind - > >users. The W3C guidelines tell you how to do that using the technology > >available at the time they were written. Would you rather have "Your > >site must have accessability options", or "every img that carries > >content must have a meaningful alt"? > The problem with sentence 1 (which I assume is the fed guidelines) is > that it's too easy to slime your way out of it. The web designer/site > owner could argue that since there's a web browser that has a braille > driver out there that he doesen't have to bother changing his coding > as long is his site renders in some fashion on the braille browser. This > ignores that because of crummy html the rendering is a much more > unpleasant experience for the blind person than for the sighted person. Sentence one is not the fed guideline, but my interpretation of a bunch of the collapsed together. The guidelines proper can be found at . As for the web site experiences, that changes time the viewer changes a browser setting. That's life on the web, and nothing can change it. One of the things the government tried to do was *not* limit the technology that designers could use to make information available for the temporarily abled. The critical idea behind the ADA is not that the experience should be the same for everyone, no matter how abled, but that everyone should have the same information available. This can be done using one site and the W3C's mechanisms for alternatives, or it can be done with a text-only site. > Although it's been a while since I've looked at w3c, since it's a standard > it surely is worthless if not updated to stay current with current technology. > Forcing sites to stay compliant with it to remain OK under ADA gives a > yardstick > that is very definite, there's no wiggle room for the designer to slime out of > it. If the designers have a beef then they can take it up with the standards > body and have a public discussion that settles things rather than some > backroom > sealed deal (which is how the government seems to like to handle things) The part of Section 508 that covers the web are based on the W3C WAI. Unless the W3C is made part of the government, it really can't write regulations. The regulatory agency responsible for electronic access has adopted the WAI rules. That's as close as you can legally come to what you want. > I liken this to the ADA requirements for ramps for building access. The > standard requires a ramp, but the codes also specify how wide and the degree > of incline of the ramp. You cannot for example put in a 45 degree ramp that > extends 6 feet and is 6 inches wide and claim that it makes the building > wheelchair accessible. So why would you advocate that the websites that fall > under > ADA requirements be given more wide lattitude than ADA gives for building > access? Because they are working in a medium that's a bit more pliable than concrete. The rules - again, adopted from the W3Cs WAI - are designed to insure that the site will be accessible to any standards-compliant browser. They don't say "every IMG must have an ALT"; they say "every non-text element must have a text equivalent" (and 15 other rules, some of which aren't quite so general). The first is tied to the technology. The second one isn't - which was my point. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 6 23:55:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87F6E37B419; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fA77suT93326; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Robert Clark" Cc: "David Scheidt" , "Mike Meyer" , , Subject: RE: NatWest? no thanks Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 23:54:55 -0800 Message-ID: <005b01c16761$7d9219a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20011106115406.B53379@darkstar.gte.net> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Robert Clark >Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:54 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: David Scheidt; Mike Meyer; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: NatWest? no thanks > >> >> Keep in mind that I'm not arguing against a court judgement that forces the >> issue of ADA on commercial websites. If one came down everyone, including >> sighted persons, would benefit because there's far too much crappy HTML on >> commercial sites as it is. > >For this purpose, was gopher better mosaic? > Like Star Trek, people today want to believe all problems have simple solutions. A simple solution is a short solution. The Web encourages all information to be condensed down to a 1024x768 resolution of about a page to make it fit. Gopher did the opposite as it was more of a cataloging system of documents, which could easily be quite long. So, the web definitely fits most people's temperment much better than gopher does because people only want to learn enough to know something exists, but not really understand it. PS This is sarcasm. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 8 9:50:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza2.acecape.com [66.9.36.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4037B41A for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA8HoHd24684 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:50:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:50:13 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Old messages from list coming back? Message-ID: <20011108124937.U29511-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just 3 old messages, which I had previously received, from the questions list. Anyone else seen this? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 8 13:36:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.de (mailout00.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8234D37B416 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 13:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.de by mailout00.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 161wqv-0003m6-07; Thu, 08 Nov 2001 22:36:49 +0100 Received: from gate01.office01.mailsurf.com (520001623117-0001@[217.229.72.14]) by fmrl06.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 161wqi-1R1zlYC; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:36:36 +0100 Received: from venus (venus.office01.mailsurf.com [10.250.0.254]) by gate01.office01.mailsurf.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A1179D5C1 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:36:34 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <012801c1689e$05bcdf30$fe00fa0a@venus> From: "Sven Huster" To: Subject: [OT] need help on jobs titles Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:37:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Sender: 520001623117-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi there, think its not the right place to post here but need some help on job titles/descriptions I always wonder about the titles normally used for the different task like "system engineer", "system administrator", "operator" as well as terms related to software development. would be also interesting when do you call someone "junior", "senior" or whatever. can someone post me a link or some descriptions? thanks in advance best regards Sven To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 8 17:46:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BB86037B41C for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 34808 invoked by uid 100); 9 Nov 2001 01:46:43 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15339.13699.276350.206620@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 19:46:43 -0600 To: "Sven Huster" Cc: Subject: Re: [OT] need help on jobs titles In-Reply-To: <012801c1689e$05bcdf30$fe00fa0a@venus> References: <012801c1689e$05bcdf30$fe00fa0a@venus> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sven Huster types: > Hi there, Hello. You do realize that *nothing* is off-topic for chat, right? So labelling mail as such is a bit ... silly. > think its not the right place to post here but need some help on > job titles/descriptions > > I always wonder about the titles normally used for the different > task like "system engineer", "system administrator", "operator" > as well as terms related to software development. > would be also interesting when do you call someone "junior", > "senior" or whatever. > > can someone post me a link or some descriptions? Try SAGE - . They should provide at a minimum the definition of system administrator, and how to distinguish between the various levels. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 8 22:38:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.de (mailout04.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609F237B405 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 22:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd01.sul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 1625JH-00052o-03; Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:38:39 +0100 Received: from venus (520001623117-0001@[217.229.72.14]) by fmrl01.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1625JE-2G7W88C; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:38:36 +0100 Message-ID: <014501c168e9$be8f5e20$fe00fa0a@venus> From: "Sven Huster" To: References: <012801c1689e$05bcdf30$fe00fa0a@venus> <15339.13699.276350.206620@guru.mired.org> Subject: Re: [OT] need help on jobs titles Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:42:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Sender: 520001623117-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ok ok, I didn't really check the policy of the list. just thought its more I relation to freebsd, but doesn't seems like this. thanks > Sven Huster types: > > Hi there, > > Hello. You do realize that *nothing* is off-topic for chat, right? So > labelling mail as such is a bit ... silly. > > > think its not the right place to post here but need some help on > > job titles/descriptions > > > > I always wonder about the titles normally used for the different > > task like "system engineer", "system administrator", "operator" > > as well as terms related to software development. > > would be also interesting when do you call someone "junior", > > "senior" or whatever. > > > > can someone post me a link or some descriptions? > > Try SAGE - . They should provide at a > minimum the definition of system administrator, and how to distinguish > between the various levels. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 8 23:12:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B92E37B41E for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA2495555 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:12:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA32065 for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:10:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:10:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Good Mail Programs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, I've just about had enough of Pine. Mozilla is too slow. Does anyone have any suggestions on good mail readers? Requirements: - must support multiple mailboxes, both locally and remotely (via IMAP and POP) - must be easy to sort / maitain mailboxes - would prefer an X program, but am willing to settle for an excellent console app - pleasant to use Thanks. -- Jeremy Fain would I climb, yet fear I to fall. -- Sir Walter Raleigh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 8 23:30:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A0E1637B41F for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 44205 invoked by uid 100); 9 Nov 2001 07:30:43 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15339.34339.76622.52913@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 01:30:43 -0600 To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy Karlson types: > Okay, I've just about had enough of Pine. Mozilla is too slow. Does > anyone have any suggestions on good mail readers? Requirements: Well, I really like the emacs VM package. If you use emacs, you should give it a look. If you don't use emacs, you probably should :-). > - must support multiple mailboxes, both locally and remotely (via IMAP and > POP) Yup. > - must be easy to sort / maitain mailboxes Yup. > - would prefer an X program, but am willing to settle for an excellent > console app With xemacs, you get X menus and a graphical toolbar. But it will also work in a console. You can even have a mailbox open in an X environment, and access it from a session logged into a console. > - pleasant to use Well, *I* think it's pleasant to use. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 8 23:35:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD5937B41B for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.112.20]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA2492910; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (karlj000@localhost) by ugrad.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA32402; Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:33:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ugrad.unbc.ca: karlj000 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 23:33:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: <15339.34339.76622.52913@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, I really like the emacs VM package. If you use emacs, you should > give it a look. If you don't use emacs, you probably should :-). I'm a vi user already, thanks. I just want to change mail readers, not religions. :-) Maybe I'll install that and have a look... But I'm still open to other suggestions... -- Jeremy Fain would I climb, yet fear I to fall. -- Sir Walter Raleigh To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 0:28:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tigerdyr.wheel.dk (tigerdyr.wheel.dk [62.242.234.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C3E37B422 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 00:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by tigerdyr.wheel.dk (Postfix, from userid 1002) id D2F03229CE; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:28:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:28:26 +0100 From: Michael =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lyngb=F8l?= To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Message-ID: <20011109082826.GZ67192@tigerdyr.wheel.dk> References: <15339.34339.76622.52913@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD/i386 4.4-RELEASE X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CA6 3789 1455 8FC2 D499 F22A D763 1ABB 9E4A 37AE X-PGP-Public-Key: finger lyngbol@tigerdyr.wheel.dk Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08.11.2001 23:33:50 +0000, Jeremy Karlson wrote: > > Well, I really like the emacs VM package. If you use emacs, you should > > give it a look. If you don't use emacs, you probably should :-). > > I'm a vi user already, thanks. I just want to change mail readers, not > religions. :-) > > Maybe I'll install that and have a look... But I'm still open to other > suggestions... mutt - /usr/ports/mail/mutt/ The best mailer I've tried so far, does nearly everything. /Michael -- Michael Lyngbøl -- michael at lyngbol dot dk TDC Tele Danmark, DataNetworks, IP·backbone To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 1:24:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 075C537B41A for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 01:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id fA99OFj04824 ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:24:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA75210 ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:24:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:24:14 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Message-ID: <20011109102414.A75046@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Jeremy Karlson , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15339.34339.76622.52913@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from karlj000@unbc.ca on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:33:50PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy Karlson said on Nov 8, 2001 at 23:33:50: > > Well, I really like the emacs VM package. If you use emacs, you should > > give it a look. If you don't use emacs, you probably should :-). > > I'm a vi user already, thanks. I just want to change mail readers, not > religions. :-) Try mutt. Requires some time to configure the first time, but after that it has everything I want and more. You can even retain the pine key bindings (for the most part) if you're used to them. It's extremely configurable -- you can set your headers, signature, reply address, saved-mail folder, etc etc based on a variety of criteria. It also watches multiple mailboxes and has good threaded display. And more, but these are the features which made me switch from pine (though I've heard these days pine supports a lot of this too). Works best in conjunction with procmail (the multiple mail folder stuff I mean). - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 1:30: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BD237B418 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 01:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id fA99Twj06250 ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:29:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA75604 ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:29:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:29:58 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Message-ID: <20011109102958.B75046@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Jeremy Karlson , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15339.34339.76622.52913@guru.mired.org> <20011109102414.A75046@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011109102414.A75046@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 10:24:14AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on Nov 9, 2001 at 10:24:14: > > Try mutt. Requires some time to configure the first time, but after > that it has everything I want and more. You can even retain the pine > key bindings (for the most part) if you're used to them. By the way I didn't see your original mail. From Mike's mail it seems you're looking for: Multiple mailboxes -- very well, as I already described IMAP - yes POP - no (afaik), but you could use fetchmail for that Easy to sort/maintain mailboxes - yes (if you're comfortable with console-based programs, anyway) X - no, but if you receive image attachments you can always launch a helper; I don't really see any advantage of a purely "graphical" program. Pleasant to use - YMMV. Once I configured it to my satisfaction, I decided it's the best ever. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 2:33:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528B237B420 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 02:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 796FE14C40; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:33:05 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Jeremy Karlson , Mike Meyer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs References: <15339.34339.76622.52913@guru.mired.org> <20011109102414.A75046@lpt.ens.fr> <20011109102958.B75046@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Nov 2001 11:33:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20011109102958.B75046@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > IMAP - yes Remember to build with WITH_MUTT_IMAP=YES, and WITH_MUTT_SSL=YES for IMAPS. > POP - no (afaik), but you could use fetchmail for that WITH_MUTT_POP=YES See /usr/ports/mail/mutt-devel/Makefile for more options. BTW, mutt has very good PGP / GnuPG support. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 5:25:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from daemonz.org (TK212017094177.teleweb.at [212.17.94.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 77A6537B41E for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 05:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26513 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Nov 2001 13:24:34 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:24:34 +0100 From: Stanislav Grozev To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Message-ID: <20011109142434.A26376@meerkat.dungeon> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from karlj000@unbc.ca on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:10:39PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:10:39PM -0800, Jeremy Karlson wrote: > Okay, I've just about had enough of Pine. Mozilla is too slow. Does > anyone have any suggestions on good mail readers? Requirements: mutt, mutt and mutt... did i mention mutt? also worth noting is mutt;-) (i know this is someone else's quote, i just couldn't resist;-) it's a console app, but it supports pretty much everything and is about as flexible as one can get. -tacho -- [i don't follow] | [http://daemonz.org/ || tacho@daemonz.org] 0x44fc3339 || [02b5 798b 4bd1 97fb f8db 72e4 dca4 be03 44fc 3339] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 5:32:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tfcci.com (tfcci.com [204.210.226.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D36137B41D for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 05:32:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.tfcci.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02620; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:32:56 -0500 Received: from icestorm.tfcc.com(192.168.4.115) by mail.tfcci.com via smap (V2.1/2.1c) id xma002608; Fri, 9 Nov 01 08:32:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:31:22 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Fuhrman X-X-Sender: To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: 21st Century Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Howdy, I'm a pine user personally, but a number of people I know on another mailing list rave about sylpheed: http://sylpheed.good-day.net/ If you're not looking for something that looks like Outlook or Eudora, then another e-mail program I've diddled with is ishmail: http://www.ishmail.com Both of these support IMAP, POP, and multiple folders. Cheers! On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Jeremy Karlson wrote: > Okay, I've just about had enough of Pine. Mozilla is too slow. Does > anyone have any suggestions on good mail readers? Requirements: > > - must support multiple mailboxes, both locally and remotely (via IMAP and > POP) > - must be easy to sort / maitain mailboxes > - would prefer an X program, but am willing to settle for an excellent > console app > - pleasant to use > > Thanks. > > - -- Chris Fuhrman | Twenty First Century Communications cfuhrman@tfcci.com | Software Engineer (W) 614-442-1215 x271 | (F) 614-442-5662 | PGP/GPG Public Key Available on Request -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGPEnvelope - http://pgpenvelope.sourceforge.net iD8DBQE769qwtZTBgtmnGNERAn0xAKDgKw063Z0FW4Ycmpw4VQUco9NOPACgj2Li SrF0YQ0F7WENuJ/AWPFmZxQ= =k/EQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 8:23:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F6537B61C for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b154.otenet.gr [212.205.244.162]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fA9GMZB12917; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:22:42 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA9GMNV45855; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:22:23 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 18:22:21 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jeremy Karlson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good Mail Programs Message-ID: <20011109182221.K39562@hades.hell.gr> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Jeremy Karlson Subject: Good Mail Programs Date: Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 11:10:39PM -0800 > Okay, I've just about had enough of Pine. Mozilla is too slow. Does > anyone have any suggestions on good mail readers? Requirements: I personally prefer Mutt to Pine. It reminds me of Elm that other Unix mailer I used to find pretty on SunOS boxes back in 1993. It's in the ports, and I customarily build it with: # cd /usr/ports/mutt-devel # make WITH_MUTT_IMAP=yes WITH_MUTT_POP=yes \ WITH_MUTT_HTML=yes WITH_MUTT_SSL=yes WITH_MUTT_NNTP=yes > - must support multiple mailboxes, both locally and remotely (via IMAP and POP) Yes, it does support multiple folders. In fact, all my mail is fetched with fetchmail, and split in proper folders with procmail. Then Mutt has a few lines in my .muttrc to watch for new mail in all of these folders: # folder options set mbox_type="mbox" unset mbox unset move unset metoo set folder="~/mail" set postponed="+postponed" set record="+sent-mail" mailboxes +INBOX \ +log.cvsup +log.periodic \ +greek.bsd.users +greek.linux.users +zsh.users \ +f.PR +f.bugs \ +f.arch +f.committers +f.developers +f.doc +f.current +f.policy \ +f.cvs.doc +f.cvs.ports +f.cvs.src +f.cvs.www +f.cvs.misc \ +f.advocacy +f.chat +f.fs +f.hackers +f.isp +f.jobs +f.net \ +f.newbies +f.questions +f.security \ +irc.grnet.admins +irc.grnet.opers \ +irc.grnet.help +irc.grnet.hellas +irc.grnet.services There's practically no limit to the numbers of folders you can use. > - must be easy to sort / maitain mailboxes Pretty easy, yes :) > - would prefer an X program, but am willing to settle for an excellent console app > - pleasant to use I'm all for console mailers, because graphical mailers tend to do Strange Things(TM) with wrapping and whitespace, which makes me angry :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 8:54:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from borg-cube.com (30.muld.snfc.snfccafj.dsl.att.net [12.99.107.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587ED37B429 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from borg-cube.com (dburr@borg-cube.com [12.99.107.30] (may be forged)) by borg-cube.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fA9Gsdd88424 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:54:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@borg-cube.com) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:54:39 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Burr of Borg To: Subject: BSD Users BOF at ALS Message-ID: <20011109085157.L88403-100000@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To those of you attending the Annual Linux Showcase (ALS) in Oakland, CA this week: I have scheduled a BOF (Birds of a Feather session) especially for BSD users, titled "BSD Users, Unite!" It will be held TODAY (Friday 11/9), from 6:00-7:00 PM, in the California Room at the Oakland Marriott City Center. Please come down and show your support!! If you are in the area and would like to come, you can still register on-site for free. Just head down to the Oakland Marriott City Center and walk over to the registration desk. For more details on the conference, how to get there, etc. please visit: http://www.linuxshowcase.org/ -- Donald Burr of Borg | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! WWW: http://www.borg-cube.com/ ICQ #16997506 | http://www.freebsd.org/ P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 \----------------------------- Phone: (805)957-9666 Present Day... Present Time! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 8:57: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-1.traffic.co.uk (mail-1.traffic.co.uk [193.132.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 701C637B41C for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2245 invoked by uid 1006); 9 Nov 2001 16:59:14 -0000 Received: from romeo@trafficproximity.com by riker.traffic.co.uk with qmail-scanner-0.96 (sweep: 2.2/3.44. . Clean. Processed in 0.772667 secs); 09 Nov 2001 16:59:14 -0000 X-Virus-Scanner-Mail-From: romeo@trafficproximity.com via riker.traffic.co.uk X-Virus-Scanner-Rcpt-To: dburr@borg-cube.com,freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Virus-Scanner: 0.96 (No viruses found. Processed in 0.772667 secs) Received: from emerald-int.traffic.co.uk (romeo@192.168.1.49) by mail.traffic.co.uk with SMTP; 9 Nov 2001 16:59:13 -0000 Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 16:56:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Shashi Dookhee X-Sender: romeo@emerald.traffic.co.uk To: Donald Burr of Borg Cc: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: BSD Users BOF at ALS In-Reply-To: <20011109085157.L88403-100000@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Rating: mail.traffic.co.uk 1.6.2 0/1000/N Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would if I could... Dont think there is a plane that'll get me there quick enough tho!!! S. (London, UK) On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Donald Burr of Borg wrote: > To those of you attending the Annual Linux Showcase (ALS) in Oakland, CA > this week: > > I have scheduled a BOF (Birds of a Feather session) especially for BSD > users, titled "BSD Users, Unite!" It will be held TODAY (Friday 11/9), > from 6:00-7:00 PM, in the California Room at the Oakland Marriott City > Center. > > Please come down and show your support!! > > If you are in the area and would like to come, you can still register > on-site for free. Just head down to the Oakland Marriott City Center and > walk over to the registration desk. > > For more details on the conference, how to get there, etc. please visit: > http://www.linuxshowcase.org/ > =============================================================================== Traffic Proximity Limited 191 Old Marylebone Road London NW1 5DW United Kingdom Registered number: 3164767 Registered in England Tel: +44 (0) 20 7298 8200 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7298 8201 This email its contents and any files or images with it are intended solely for the addressee(s) and are confidential. If you have received this email in error you may not copy or use the contents, attachments or information in any way. Please destroy it and contact the sender on the number printed above, via the Traffic Proximity switchboard or via email return. DISCLAIMER Material contained in this email may be copyright material of Traffic Proximity or protected by other intellectual property rights. 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Any opinions expressed in this email are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Traffic Proximity or its affiliates. =============================================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 11:44:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8096937B41B for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C968C38A8 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:38:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:38:35 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Subject: New "BSD" item on eBay Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I did a search on BSD on eBay and this item came up: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1028513108 Eric Wayte University DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 9 15:55: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net (we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net [24.126.55.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE10337B41A; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 15:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix.homeip.net (lyvwfg@unix.homeip.net [24.126.55.112]) by we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA9NwJ919863; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 15:58:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bear@unix.homeip.net) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 15:58:19 -0800 (PST) From: Joey Garcia X-X-Sender: bear@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net To: questions@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Message-ID: <20011109155543.G15209-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, the subject says it all. I've been thinking of making the trek to Comdex next week, but I'm not quite convinced on going. Not too crazy about dealing with all those marketing types there. Ask them a tech question and they freeze. But, it would be neat to maybe meet some BSD guys to hang out, check out the new gadgets, etc. Joey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 10 1:47:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C2437B436; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 01:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id fAA9lfT03570; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 01:47:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Joey Garcia" , Cc: Subject: RE: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 01:47:41 -0800 Message-ID: <006e01c169cc$bd2a5ec0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20011109155543.G15209-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's been a long time since Comdex was anything other than a huge bunch of people all trying to sell bullshit to each other. But it's like Mardi Gras, it's fun to go to just to see the spectacle of it. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Joey Garcia >Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 3:58 PM >To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG >Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Anyone going to Comdex next week? > > > >Well, the subject says it all. I've been thinking of making the trek to >Comdex next week, but I'm not quite convinced on going. Not too crazy >about dealing with all those marketing types there. Ask them a tech >question and they freeze. But, it would be neat to maybe meet some BSD >guys to hang out, check out the new gadgets, etc. > >Joey > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 10 2: 4:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC4937B41A; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:04:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) id fAAA45l49650; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:04:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:04:05 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Joey Garcia , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone going to Comdex next week? Message-ID: <20011110020404.A49530@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20011109155543.G15209-100000@we-24-126-55-112.we.mediaone.net> <006e01c169cc$bd2a5ec0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <006e01c169cc$bd2a5ec0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:47:41AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:47:41AM -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > It's been a long time since Comdex was anything other than a huge bunch > of people all trying to sell bullshit to each other. But it's like Mardi > Gras, it's fun to go to just to see the spectacle of it. Might be fun some other year if someone else was footing the tab, the price of hotel rooms and everything else doubles for Comdex, but this year would be no fun. The desperation is going to ubiquitous this year. Even microsoft supplied hookers and whiskey will not brighten the mood. Too much of a downer this year. If I want to get that depressed and not spend the money I'll sit at home and listen to the Joy Division. Comdex, pass. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 10 14: 0:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECA637B41B for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27168 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2001 22:00:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 10 Nov 2001 22:00:52 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:00:32 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Jeremy Karlson Subject: RE: Good Mail Programs Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Nov-01 Jeremy Karlson wrote: > Okay, I've just about had enough of Pine. Mozilla is too slow. Does > anyone have any suggestions on good mail readers? Requirements: > > - must support multiple mailboxes, both locally and remotely (via IMAP and > POP) > - must be easy to sort / maitain mailboxes > - would prefer an X program, but am willing to settle for an excellent > console app > - pleasant to use xfmail, but beware that it does have its share of bugs and you can make it crash without trying to hard. :( -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message