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Date:      Sat, 9 May 2020 23:14:40 +0200
From:      Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de>
To:        freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Microsoft Teams for Linux
Message-ID:  <20200509231440.38c849d6.freebsd@edvax.de>
In-Reply-To: <20200509125203.000036a2@seibercom.net>
References:  <b64d57e2-f4d7-7618-c711-6501a652a6ac@suszko.eu> <223da1b3-a83d-b2e8-36dc-468dcb219305@suszko.eu> <db68d8c4-cf3e-5a2f-63d9-f16f0b4f9559@lidstrom.eu> <fecdd83b-2061-a6c0-f927-c380cbc2b500@suszko.eu> <a0828175-6f75-92c4-ab48-bfd395e1a91d@suszko.eu> <ce6fe689-777f-7285-3483-76fb73ea3e82@suszko.eu> <f3a86f00-7e81-ec9d-2f29-c4d9bc3e0094@lidstrom.eu> <b28e6141-04bc-4f66-93e3-658929500c0c@suszko.eu> <CAM8r67Boe0dQt+1T8rdoubxNKaeDCaQ5UkY1nThM8UahF=WU3g@mail.gmail.com> <20200508113438.00006adc@seibercom.net> <CAM8r67DqhC37qoU99iBXPvSZAVVPezPCfKipOD-2xiig95-0TA@mail.gmail.com> <20200508185327.00007397@seibercom.net> <20200509063222.94d762e9751a32c693d73d2f@sohara.org> <20200509062517.00002c46@seibercom.net> <20200509121604.b385c38e8ad5518c9a571ef2@sohara.org> <20200509135024.d3ace507.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200509085553.00006a3a@seibercom.net> <20200509173218.7c1bec97.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200509125203.000036a2@seibercom.net>

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On Sat, 9 May 2020 12:52:03 -0400, Jerry wrote:
> On Sat, 9 May 2020 17:32:18 +0200, Polytropon commented:
> >On Sat, 9 May 2020 08:55:53 -0400, Jerry wrote:
> >> On Sat, 9 May 2020 13:50:24 +0200, Polytropon commented:  
> >> >On Sat, 9 May 2020 12:16:04 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:  
> >> >> On Sat, 9 May 2020 06:25:17 -0400
> >> >> Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote:
> >> >>     
> >> >> > On Sat, 9 May 2020 06:32:22 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith
> >> >> > commented:    
> >> >> > >On Fri, 8 May 2020 18:53:27 -0400
> >> >> > >Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> wrote:
> >> >> > >    
> >> >> > >> Both "Zoom" and "MS Teams" are working fine in my Win10
> >> >> > >> machine. I have never tried to get them to work on FreeBSD,
> >> >> > >> and I have no idea why I would want to. I don't have a linux
> >> >> > >> machine handy, although that is on my "to-do" list. Perhaps
> >> >> > >> by the end of this summer.      
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > One good reason for wanting them working on Linux or FreeBSD
> >> >> > > is not owning a Windows machine. I don't, so if I wished to
> >> >> > > use either of those tools it seems I would need to buy one or
> >> >> > > try and get it to work on something else.    
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > You seem to be under some preconceived notion that your need to
> >> >> > 'own' a Windows or other OS machine. You could run the
> >> >> > application(s) in a VM. It is becoming ubiquitous from what I
> >> >> > have observed.    
> >> >> 
> >> >> 	I still need to own a Windows license to do that - I do
> >> >> not. 
> >> >
> >> >You cannot own a license - you can be granted a license. Such a
> >> >license can also be revoked, no matter how much you paid for it.
> >> >In addition to a valid license, you typically need a registration
> >> >for the use of the desired service. Depending on the service, this
> >> >might include personal data you might not be willing to share with
> >> >an untrusted third party (and their unknown partners) just for the
> >> >sake of a video conference, such as name, date of birth, residence,
> >> >banking information, who knows. That valuable data adds to the
> >> >costs of licensing.  
> >> 
> >> In the cases of the software I use, the use of telemetry can be
> >> shutoff or restricted to certain functions, like a program crash. It
> >> is always wise to investigate exactly what information is being
> >> analyzed. As always, it is my choice; no one is holding a gun to my
> >> head forcing me to accept anything.
> >>   
> >> >I fully agree with Jerry that trying to get certain software
> >> >intended to be used with "Windows" exclusively to work on FreeBSD
> >> >is, in most cases, not worth the time. A VM with a suitable
> >> >"Windows" is often the best solution. Some software is so complex,
> >> >and tied with the bowels of "Windows" so deeply that even with
> >> >tools like wine it is not possible to get an acceptable result. The
> >> >same applies for software that is run using a web browser: If it
> >> >only supports one specific browser, use that browser, instead of
> >> >trying to a get a different browser to to something that it is
> >> >probably not able to do. Always keep in mind that the complexity of
> >> >modern web browsers has reached (or maybe even surpassed) the
> >> >complexity of whole operating systems - and this also seems to be
> >> >true for their differences and incompatibilities, intended or not.  
> >> 
> >> I have never understood why in a day when there are numerous VMs
> >> available, any sane person would resort to 'wine'. Wine is nothing
> >> more than a pseudo Windows environment. If you are going to use
> >> Windows for a specific purpose, then do it correctly and use a VM.  
> >
> >Why? There are plenty of programs that work excellent with wine.
> >For example, I have games installed that run with wine, and I'm
> >happy I don't need a "Windows" installation to run them. Using
> >wine's environment gets rid of a specific aspect, which you
> >introduced: People intend to run programs (applications, apps,
> >whatever you want to call them) in order to reach a certain goal.
> >People do not, I repeat, do _not_ run operating systems out of
> >a primary intention; they rather use them as a means to run the
> >programs they want. And for the games mentioned, I don't want
> >and don't need a "Windows" - wine is more than sufficient. There
> >is no additional complexity or resource consumption of a VM,
> >and I still get all benefits of the underlying UNIX OS without
> >the need to "go into a golden cage" (the VM) where every inter-
> >action, like copying files in / out, accessing network resources,
> >or local hardware devices, requires additional configuration to
> >some extent.
> 
> If 'wine', the software version, not the beverage, suits you, then that
> is great. I have always found it buggy and slow, but I would not stop
> someone else from utilizing it. If you are happy with it, then I am
> happy for you.

I'm very happy to have it, so I can still play certain games
I legally own (not just rented - they do not depend on some
server being online). :-)




> >> I also question why FreeBSD has never ported Google Chrome into its
> >> ports system? Is this by design, a sort of product discrimination? I
> >> know, Poly, "patches accepted".  
> >
> >Isn't Chromium supposed to be the "free replacement" for Chrome?
> 
> No, not really. In any case, Google Chrome is free, so I fail to see
> the basis for you argument.

If I remember correctly, the difference between Chrome and
Chromium is that

Chrome
	is branded "Google",
	has an installer,
	has an auto-updater,
	comes with additional video and audio codecs,
	supports digital restriction management (DRM),
	and is not open source, while

Chromium
	is open source,
	lacks certain "Google-added" stuff,
	and is the foundation of Google's own development.

So what you find in "Edge" - if you could find it! - probably
is components of Chromium, or at least Blink, its rendering
subsystem. Maybe "free" was the wrong word here - both Chrome
and Chromium can be used free of charge.
	
	

> >For each task, use the best tool. There is no "one tool" that
> >will do solve all tasks automatically.
> 
> Correct as far as it goes, However, there is no reason to use a dozen
> different tools that don't even speak the same language when I can use
> three that are functionally compatible with each other.
> 
> EXAMPLE: right now I am using a 1) TeXstudio (LaTex with MiTeX), 2)
> Adobe Acrobat DC, 3) MS Word 4) MS Excel, and 5) Grammarly to create a
> document. I can leverage the power of each of these applications into
> one seamless experience. If I need to, I can even use either Excel or
> MS Access to access information stored on my MySQL server running on my
> FreeBSD machine.
> 
> I have never reached that sort of freedom or usefulness with a FreeBSD
> desktop. Too many applications either don't work, don't work well or
> don't work with each other.

What you describe and criticize is the common situation on
"Windows" programs, and especially due to "extensions" added
to standards (if standard-compliant at all) create incompatibilities.
Exchanging data between the various versions of "Office" in use
is problematic, eats formatting, or is impossible. Exchanging
data with non-"Office" programs is, as you described, often very
problematic. In some cases, only programs like OpenOffice can
recover a "Word" file that "Word" has damaged and cannot open
anymore. While the many open source office suites seem to have
standardized on a common format (ODF), it is not the case with
the MICROS~1 products.

The freedom and usefulness I have on my FreeBSD desktop has never
been reached by a "Windows" installation, no matter how much
money was thrown at the problem.

Things differ, but that's okay.



> >> The FreeBSD community has walled itself off from many computer
> >> improvement due to its inability to adapt.  
> >
> >If you only adapt, not invent, not step forward, you can
> >only be as good as the leader, but you cannot be better.
> >Being better is the natural enemy of being good. ;-)
> 
> I "absolutely agree." Never-the-less, there are those who criticize and
> demean anyone or entity that attempts to create a newer or better
> product that extends or rewrites a "standard" that those with their
> heads stuck in the sand cherish like a Divine Law or biblical law. I
> remember when virtually all cars were based on a 6 volt system. That
> gave way to the 12 volt system. My GOD, if the open-source community
> had existed then, they would have been pulling their hair out over this
> gross departure from a beloved 'standard'. ANY FRIGGING STANDARD that
> curtails or slows down progress is a BAD-BAD-BAD standard. If you do
> not evolve, you are standing still; which is effectively the same as
> going in reverse.

That is absolutely true. Building upon standards however is
the best thing to do - as long as the standards allow this,
and as they are followed. Just take the situation of PC connectors.
In the past, there were various plugs for this and that, but
today, most things are USB. Several protocols can be used,
depending on what kind of hardware you attach. You still don't
need a "printer-to-mouse-port" adapter, you just require that
the device you're using implements the correct protocol for that
kind of device.

Probably unknown to you, in the "eastern block" there was so
much great development and innovation, but "concrete heads"
in charge suppressed everything that was superior to the
western standards - because that's a market they wanted to
act in, too. So basically they cloned, reverse-engineered
and re-implemented IBM as ES EVM (ESER) and DEC as SM EVM
(SKR), and even "worse", distributed component manufacturing
across countries. Even though this sounds stupid (and it
probably was), this kind of diversity did _not_ fail to meet
the standards established for those systems, and compatibility
and interoperability was possible with a processor from the
Soviet Union, disk drives from Bulgaria, magnetic tape units
from the German Democratic Republic, printers from Poland,
and terminals from Czechoslovakia - and this worked! And not
just for a moment, sometimes for decades. Why? Because it
had to. Work could not have been done otherwise.

Now imagine today's situation, just look a bit into the past:
accessoires for mobile phones: incompatible voltages, different
plugs, of course totally different software with varying
degrees of functions, no usable way to transfer contact data
and messages from one phone to the other. Today all this is
possible without much trouble, and you can reuse stuff that
works. Oh, did I mention that "contiuous re-buying of what
you already have" is a significant source of electronic waste
and a burden to the environment? ;-)



> >> Have fun Poly. I eagerly await the company line.  
> >
> >As a non-native speaker, I have no idea what that means...
> 
> Fair enough. Perhaps you are familiar with the expression, "toeing the
> party line."

I had to look it up, but I understand now. Still I am not
allowed to sing the company fight song. ;-)



> It boils down, at least for me, this philosophy.
> 
> There are three solutions to every problem:
> 
>   1) Accept it
>   2) Change it
>   3) Leave it

You are missing two very important alternatives:

	4) Ignore it

	5) Delegate it

Those two cases can even be combined: Let someone else solve
the problem, while you tell everyone how easy it was. It is
a common method of "goal-oriented users" who do not want to
deal with the problems they're encountering. I think this does
not fit within one of the three options you mentioned...




-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...



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