Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:23:57 +0100 (BST) From: Paul Richards <p.richards@elsevier.co.uk> To: stephen@dcs.rhbnc.ac.uk (Stephen P. Butler) Cc: mikee@sys8.wfc.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors Message-ID: <199605241423.PAA11414@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960524141702.10185A-100000@platon> from "Stephen P. Butler" at May 24, 96 02:59:12 pm
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In reply to Stephen P. Butler who said > > Unix is the kernel. Everything else is just an application, vi > included (even Emacs, my current favorite editor). An editor doesn't > define Unix, neither do any of the other application software > typically shipped with a Unix system. vi will still be there for the > people who wish to use it. Maybe it should just be marked as a > deprecated feature like old system calls. Hell, if someone can come You've really got it in for vi haven't you? You're fundamentally wrong about Unix being just the kernel. The environment does define Unix, go read some of the standards. > Are you saying that you can't use pico just long enough for you get vi > going? I'm not going to let you convince me you're that stupid! I > know you can do it - just try! If you can honestly not use pico to > edit a file, I'll send you a virtual can of beer! That's not the issue, the issue is whether the nature of unix should evolve along the lines of life being easier for newbies to the detriment of experienced users. You're not being very objective because you're arguing from the position of vi being an outdated and obsolete app and that's very, very far from the truth. A huge number of people still find it the editor of choice because it's basically very good at what it does. A huge number of people also hate it because it's moded but that's personal choice. The huge number of people who like vi expect it to be the default editor in any unix system because it always has been. > to be dead. The question of continued Unix development must rest > with the new users who probably haven't even been born yet. Why > should they continue to use Unix? Given that the rate of progress is > so fast, why should they spend time mastering cryptic things just to > become a Unix wizard when they could spend their time doing more productive > things. I think you're missing the fundamental point really. We don't (well I certainly don't) use unix because it's unix, I use it because I can actually get things done *far* more quickly with Unix than with any other OS I've ever used. If the day comes when a better OS exists I won't be slow in waving Unix goodbye but that hasn't happened yet and I don't expect it to happen anytime soon because unix has got the fundamentals right. If new users don't feel that unix is the best tool for them then they're free to use NT or whatever they prefer, I really wouldn't mind. I am going to mind if unix starts to change to make it more accessible and therefore becomes less usefull to me as a developer. > How long does it take someone to learn vi? It took me about 15 mins > to learn how to load a file, make a few simple changes to it and save > it out again and I'm hardly an average computer user. Besides, I've > got to carry that useless information in my head when it could be used > for storing more useful things, like how do design a better > optimising compiler or something. vi really isn't any harder to learn *properly* than emacs or pico. What you and most people have been talking about is how quickly you can do the *most minimal* tasks, such as change a few words and save the file. What's good about an editor like vi (or emacs) is that for serious development you need far, far more functionality and they provide it whereas the editors that take only a few minutes to learn the basics of do not. You have to invest time to learn how to use a complex tool but you reap the benefits later. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155
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