Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:03:01 +0100 From: Timo Schoeler <timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> To: Gavin Atkinson <gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community Message-ID: <20080111150301.8db7fe96.timo.schoeler@riscworks.net> In-Reply-To: <1200050008.70812.106.camel@buffy.york.ac.uk> References: <3545.1200041730@critter.freebsd.dk> <47873174.4040802@gmail.com> <47873B06.9010603@riscworks.net> <1200050008.70812.106.camel@buffy.york.ac.uk>
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Thus Gavin Atkinson <gavin.atkinson@ury.york.ac.uk> spake on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:28 +0000: > As much as I don't want to get involved in this thread, I feel I > should at least respond to this part of it. If you are planning to > respond to this by trying to bring licensing issues up again, please > do not waste your time. Take it to -chat@ or reply to me off-list. > > On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 10:46 +0100, Timo Schšoeler wrote: > > > Everybody works on his own stuff, to earn the merits (if there are > > any besides 'glory'). The thing that is missing is satisfaction -- > > if you can feel satisfaction that your code works, then it's > > regardless of whether it was build by you or a team you were part > > of. > > This is true. Satisfaction that you have achieved and contributed > something is pretty much the only thing that a non-profit organisation > like FreeBSD can offer to people willing to work for free. Yes, and it worked for years. Do I really have to use the past tense? > > FreeBSD is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. As was stated > > in bsdforen.de, I should run ultra stable on servers, as it *used > > to be*. It no longer is. Instead, there are drivers written for HD > > Audio... Is there something I missed? Logic or Cubase already > > ported to FreeBSD? No? > > > > So why waste resources and write this driver? 'Because one can.' > > That's a typical answer that might be given in only one context: > > There's no real 'agenda' of where to go with FreeBSD. > > I would really question this. The guys who wrote the HD Audio driver > obviously needed it. As somebody who was involved (in a small way) at > the very start with writing this driver, I can say that I was involved > with it because I *needed* it. I need my laptop to be able to produce > sound, and without a driver for the sound card, I would have had to > use a different OS. Have you never needed sound on any of your > machines? I use FreeBSD on my desktop machines so need it there, but > I also use FreeBSD for streaming several radio stations over the > Internet. If the HD audio driver didn't exist, I'd have to use a > different OS there. Okay, we (I) chose a bad example, I apalogize deeply. As I wrote in response to Oliver's eMail, I thought that almost all PeeCeeish sound devices can be at least in a basic way addressed in a way similar VESA <-> framebuffers. > > As I wrote yesterday, 'If I want features, I run Linux.' I take a > > not so stable OS and can connect my new USB Digital Camera to it, > > or my CardBus HD Audio device, or whatever. The Linux guys import > > every single crappy unneccessary driver into their kernel, that's > > why APIs are changing as often as some developers change their > > underwear, and why Linux is NOT stable. > > I don't think FreeBSD will ever get to the point where "every single > crappy unnecessary driver is in the kernel". Take a look inside > GENERIC > - pretty much every single storage device controller and network card > is in there, and things like keyboard controllers for PS2 and USB, > but very little else. Basically, almost everything in there is there > to allow an initial install to happen. No sound, no drivers for 3D > cards, no drivers for lesser used filesystems. Sure, they are > available as modules if you need them, but if you don't then I don't > see why their very existence is of any concern. There seems to be > quite a high barrier for the inclusion of drivers into GENERIC. See my other emails, I seem to have been not too precise on this. It's about time, efficiency, ressources etc. in general. > > If I want a stable server that can (although not should) achieve > > very high uptimes, I choose FreeBSD. However, this might change. > > I would not deny that FreeBSD has some stability issues. Bingo. That's what nobody would have said X years before. > There are > some areas where serious work needs to be put in to improve > reliability. I do not believe that the addition of a HD Audio > driver, or the 'agenda' through which it was included is to blame. > People develop code because they want to, and people develop the code > that they want to. > > > I simply doubt that todays FreeBSD's quality, robustness can keep > > pace with the quality it had some years ago. > > I think a couple of years ago this was true, but things are changing > for the better very quickly. Second Bingo. And I second that it gets better again. The 5.x was a deep valley to walk through, at least for me. > Peter Holm's stress testing suite, Kris > Kennaway's constant hammering of FreeBSD to breaking point and > thorough investigation of failure mode, and countless new individuals > like myself working in their own small way to improve the OS they > care for have, in my opinion, produced in FreeBSD 7 (and partially in > later 6.x releases), performance and stability that hasn't been seen > since FreeBSD 4. That sounds like the future I want to see. In general, I'm almost an ascetic in those things, but it's enough to make me smile. Thanks. > Gavin Timo PS: I appreciate the work of all the FreeBSD guys very very much, as it keeps my (FreeBSD) machines running. I just wanted to point out some weaknesses to *improve* things, and the thread was not started by me. Unfortunately, doing what I tried is next to impossible on entities like mailing lists. It's pathological, but it is the way it is. ;) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHh3cWUY3eBSqOgOMRCp7KAKCTvsqqektlKDmH6hqEWAIOUzVo1gCeILsF H3erkBTGtxiRAINRbWK3CZY= =vL2/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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