From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Oct 6 17:37:03 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFD5537 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 17:37:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pascal@lechindianer.de) Received: from scummserver.lechindianer.de (scummserver.lechindianer.de [83.169.44.49]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08892626 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 17:37:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.178.46] (dslb-084-057-059-161.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.57.59.161]) by scummserver.lechindianer.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4469F156DD701 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2013 19:36:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <52519F61.6090506@lechindianer.de> Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 19:35:29 +0200 From: Pascal Schmid User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [HEADSUP] Staging, packaging and more References: <20131003084814.GB99713@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <524D6059.2000700@FreeBSD.org> <524DD120.4000701@freebsd.org> <20131003203501.GA1371@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004061833.GA1367@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004063259.GC72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004065753.GV82824@droso.dk> <20131004070158.GE72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004111256.GC98118@admin.xzibition.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2013 17:37:03 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/06/2013 07:21 PM, Bernhard Fröhlich wrote: > On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ulrich Spörlein wrote: >> 2013/10/4 Bryan Drewery : >>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 09:01:58AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >>>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:57:53AM +0200, Erwin Lansing wrote: >>>>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:32:59AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Please no devel packages. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Seconded. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's wrong with devel packages? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It complicates things for developers and custom software on FreeBSD. The typical >>>>>>> situation that I see on most Linux platforms is a lot of confusion by people, why >>>>>>> their custom software XYZ does not properly build - the most common answer: they >>>>>>> forgot to install a tremendous amount of dev packages, containing headers, build >>>>>>> tools and whatnot. On FreeBSD, you can rely on the fact that if you installed e.g. >>>>>>> libGL, you can start building your own GL applications without the need to install >>>>>>> several libGL-dev, libX11-dev, ... packages first. This is something, which I >>>>>>> personally see as a big plus of the FreeBSD ports system and which makes FreeBSD >>>>>>> attractive as a development platform. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other ends, that makes the package fat for embedded systems, that also makes >>>>>> some arbitrary runtime conflicts between packages (because they both provide the same >>>>>> symlink on the .so, while we could live with 2 version at runtime), that leads to >>>>>> tons of potential issue while building locally, and that makes having sometime insane >>>>>> issues with dependency tracking. Why having .a, .la, .h etc in production servers? It >>>>>> could greatly reduce PBI size, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Personnaly I do have no strong opinion in one or another direction. Should we be >>>>>> nicer with developers? with end users? with embedded world? That is the question to >>>>>> face to decide if -devel packages is where we want to go or not. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If we chose to go down that path, at least we should chose a different name as we've >>>>> used the -devel suffix for many years for developmental versions. >>>>> >>>>> I must agree that it is one of the things high on my list of things that irritate me >>>>> with several Linux distributions but I can see the point for for embedded systems as >>>>> well. But can't we have both? Create three packages, a default full package and split >>>>> packages of -bin, -lib, and even -doc. My first though twas to make the full package >>>>> a meta-package that would install the split packages in the background, but that would >>>>> probably be confusing for users at the end of the day, so rather just have it be a real >>>>> package. >>>>> >>>> I do like that idea very much, and it is easily doable with stage :) >>> >>> +1 to splitting packages for embedded usage. >> >> -1 for the split, as it will not fix anybody's problem. >> >> On regular machines, disk space is cheap and having to install more packages is just annoying >> to users. Think of the time wasted that people are told to apt-get libfoo-dev before they can >> build anything from github, or similar. >> >> If you actually *are* space constricted on your tiny embedded machine, what the fuck are you >> doing with the sqlite database and all the metadata about ports/packages anyway? Just rm >> /usr/include and /usr/share/doc, /usr/share/man, etc. when building your disk image. But you >> are doing that already anyway, so this solves no actual problem for you. >> >> My two cents Uli > > I also don't see why we need to optimize our packages for an embedded environment that is > usually very customized. Wouldn't it make more sense to provide some proper port / packaging > options/flags that help to optimize size of the packages without touching header files? People > could use that flags and poudriere to build their packages together with all their other > compiler flags and cpu optimisations. > +1 As far as I can see Daniel Nebdal's approach ("WITH_DEV_FILES" flag, and defaulting to "yes") sounds promising. Pascal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.21 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSUZ9hAAoJEAWefonBOgAfDlUP/3117hVdZ6WhrygIGnctSb49 V+i0SggAFxXuvFFYlkjexrWFpjMPN2H7vBtR9DVbLNwqb4En+mVj/LVY1ejS9TAQ gj/nKlK6HNdVQWQD8qLfzFUAzWwnSBco/rIOiGkOrHuvFSUCTV5gPehoJ+Vg8Qnz dyUp5SByePNpY1MGMTJZh9gKWJFtTe8DcanDBCVL65rZf/eOVPyiMwlQK+Fy2AQj OQgJxhkWJzvl5V9THsMGiSCzJ+9EMoC620F9WEs3MvO0Ky2zIercFJ2bDaks6CXn arNTsqTT1zI0sZNGNQMrnxYtQPgV3oCEAggj4ZOG0FkhmBkxWNOPUyahBUE/V8ds tvLvugzVzqeaIJWg3IKDNEfGGh0ZnAMhUakUHyJPDhuCLgb498uwElesmgaSvlky eotS4cWGVp2lquuf/xPRRl82K4ciozZi3mttRmrfoznK69p1HJbepCn9maIhFkii WqLTjKVkeZ778is8mw8dom/Qb8OEj+XR6Vetq7cLg4Is//zieKzSvMWm7QrW1dAI zohAjP+lMP5d3TEmeVqvSZhQ9ticzqGGaW4U7zxxRZ0Y/zxkBwe3cIBEpjTpnW9p /a0DJ3JodVBo79N2JheIqweCK9RPn8rOK5HxujnWcJ3jbQAgCxOdLd9iyN6IxOjI 3pHI9pO++Am9ReFvL/Uy =qm+q -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----