Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:14:22 -0400 From: Sahil Tandon <sahil@FreeBSD.org> To: Michal Varga <varga.michal@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: How to handle upgrade of libnotify when cups-client-1.4.8 is marked as broken Message-ID: <20110828211422.GB668@magic.hamla.org> In-Reply-To: <1314564889.82067.89.camel@xenon> References: <20058.20743.791783.342355@jerusalem.litteratus.org> <BLU0-SMTP182102B9C96837517ECB6BB93150@phx.gbl> <20110828172651.GB277@magic.hamla.org> <20110828173059.GT17489@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <20110828181356.GD277@magic.hamla.org> <20110828183300.GX17489@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <20110828184542.GE277@magic.hamla.org> <20110828152234.54cc9fac@seibercom.net> <20110828193046.GA668@magic.hamla.org> <1314564889.82067.89.camel@xenon>
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On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 22:54:49 +0200, Michal Varga wrote: > On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 15:30 -0400, Sahil Tandon wrote: > > [...] > > Criminal? Indifference? This sort of troll-ish hyperbole is decidedly > > unhelpful. I do agree that a note in UPDATING is appropriate. > > [...] > > Ah, more trolling. > > To contribute my random few cents to the debate (without actually > contributing anything of worth, so you don't really have to read it): That is to say, chiming in from the cheap seats? :) > Replies like these already made me discard like 20 of my own emails in > the past, mid-write, exactly because of this expected outcome - > accusations of trolling, because, why not, that's really what it's all > about, right. Have you followed the rest of the thread, where I (and others) have debated the actual _issue_, rather than engaging in ad hominem attacks towards the parties involved? Disappointment with the ports tree is completely understandable and frustration in this case is warranted, but using inflammatory hyperbole and attacking volunteers is silly. So please, do not conflate being called a troll (when you're actually being one) vs. being labelled one for highlighting a problem. > So to say for myself - I do not know Jerry, but I definitely share his > sentiments and even find his tone quite funnily (is that a word?) > appropriate, as the ports quality, over the last year, went totally, > horribly, down the drain. I'm sorry you feel that way, I hope the quality can improve from what you find to be an unacceptably low level. > On some of my desktop setups, I keep about 900-1000 installed ports (and > there are some ~200-300 for servers in general). There already seems not > to be a single week, even once, without some MAJOR breakage that always > takes hours (sometimes days) to track down and fix by my own (yes, even > stuff as simple as "hey, you should have known that you only need to > disable TLS and everything is fine again, duh" might take hours when > walking through 100s of steps upgrade process and ESPECIALLY when that > one particular breakage is combined with another, unrelated one. How > much I love those days). I understand and appreciate your frustration, I have had similar experiences. > And I know that every time I'd start writing a mail about it, my tone > would be exactly the same as Jerry chose. With the expected result of > "Zomg stop trolling", or for a change, the ever popular megahit "Patches > welcome" (yes, like that will help anyone now), without even bothering > to read what I'm really trying to complain about. That is unfortunate; can you please share an example of this happening to you in the past on this list? Just so we can put it in context. > The fact is, that port breakages are already so LOVING common these > days that some people (like me) now take them as a regular daily > routine. And sooner or later, more of them will start cracking and > going for the same tone as Jerry did. On a weekly basis, again and > again, there are port updates being introduced with what seems to be > absolutely no testing whatsoever, some breakages take multiple takes > on fixing by their respective port maintainers, new versions of major > dependencies get introduced only to be rolled back few days later; > using ports especially for this last year feels like a rollercoaster > ride without a seatbelt, upside down, inside a volcano, wearing a > parachute. And none of this is PORTS issue itself. It's a quality > control issue, or more like - the horrible lack of it. I am sorry your experience has been so horrible. > So, was really Jerry's tone so trollish? Yes. Re-read the thread, from the beginning. > I don't really think so. I'd simply consider him angry, as for myself, > I know how many such emails I personally didn't have nerves to send, > and would really, really love to. But somehow I feel, Jerry's is > simply a start and there is much more of this to see in the coming > future... Your anger is understandable, but attacking people on this list is not. -- Sahil Tandon <sahil@FreeBSD.org>
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