From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 28 12:16:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8CA437B98C for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:16:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000228201648.SPOC9076.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A> for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:16:48 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: Subject: Kerberos and Win 2000: Heads up! or The beat goes on! Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:23:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf8229$9cb5e6a0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just saw an interesting article about Kerberos and Win 2000. http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20000228/tc/20000228218.html You might want to give it a look see. John Purser To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 28 12:37:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B74137B92F for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:37:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12PWus-0004yf-00; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:37:18 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA65919; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:37:18 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:37:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: John Purser Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kerberos and Win 2000: Heads up! or The beat goes on! In-Reply-To: <000001bf8229$9cb5e6a0$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here is the dilemma as i see it.... I am not in favor of government interference in business, but it seems that nothing else will stop the M$ monopoly. They already have such a strong hold, that when they leverage new ideas and concepts, they have a juggernaut of installed systems that automatically increase the momentum of their movement. It makes it almost impossible to stop, because if we choose alternative OS's, we pay a price for M$'s lack of vision and desire to support non-M$ platforms. And they continue to do this, time after time. No matter how 'superior' or flexible we feel *nix to be, M$ will continue to make it downright inconvenient for us because they refuse to play fair. They clearly are out for their own profit and monopoly extension, not the interest of customers who may choose a mix of OS's because it is better for them. -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 28 22:11:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C312E37B564 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:11:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23564 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:11:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000228223151.03cca350@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:33:43 -0700 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD daemon changes In-Reply-To: References: <20000224140057.C49578@shadow.blackdawn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:10 PM 2/24/2000 , David Scheidt wrote: >There was a different daemon on the 3.1 and 3.2 CDs. Ugly guy with a tray, >IIRC. Around here, we call him "Dorky Daemon." Way too meek and servile-looking, if you ask me. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 4:14:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9487337BB08 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000229121443.JOKI9076.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A> for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:14:43 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: Subject: We got a mention! Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:20:55 -0800 Message-ID: <000701bf82af$6e23f080$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check out: http://i-want-a-website.com/about-microsoft/twelve-step.html If you get a minute. John Purser To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 7:34:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E2737BB82 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from dallas ([12.73.231.168]) by mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <20000229153406.BBMV20625@dallas> for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:34:06 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000229101536.00bc0590@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:20:38 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: <000701bf82af$6e23f080$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kinda obsessive, isn't it? Hey, I mean if the guy wants to run everything from BeOS to Xenix on his computer, that's all good. But to hate Windows so much that you'd be willing to recommend anything else is a little questionable. This is sorta like having some well-known nut say loudly at a party "Oh, yeah, John and I hang out all the time!" leaving you to look off at the ceiling or something. --Chip Morton At 07:20 AM 2/29/00 , John Purser wrote: >Check out: >http://i-want-a-website.com/about-microsoft/twelve-step.html > >If you get a minute. > >John Purser > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 8:36:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0AF37BB8C for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:36:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Ppcy-000C5j-00; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:36:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA70069; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:36:03 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:36:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000229101536.00bc0590@mail.threespace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org True, it may be a bit rash.... But frankly, after the kinds of stunts M$ is *still* pulling (see the article on Kerberos for w2k) they are attempting to eradicate every other OS on the face of the planet. And they just might do it. Then Unix will be just another university/academia OS. We'll all just sit around and reminisce on how great it was when there were other operating systems for PC's. Hey, people get obsessive over things they are passionate about. So, as windows continues to chip away at the Unix market, most people just sit idly by and watch. At least he's willing to do something about it. I only hope (and i believe this is true) that there are plenty of brilliant programmers who can overturn any roadblock M$ puts in front of other OS's. Like this Kerberos issue. What can Unix admins do to allow unix machines to work with w2k file and print servers now? M$ is trying to lock them out. Is there a way around it? -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 9: 8:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A8D37BC44 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:08:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA15187; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:07:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:07:14 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I only hope (and i believe this is true) that there are plenty of > brilliant programmers who can overturn any roadblock M$ puts in front > of other OS's. Like this Kerberos issue. What can Unix admins do to > allow unix machines to work with w2k file and print servers now? M$ > is trying to lock them out. Is there a way around it? Sure. Don't use MS software. Very simple. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 11:13:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236F837BCDC for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:13:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Ps50-000GZS-00; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:13:10 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA70567; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:13:10 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:13:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, David Scheidt wrote: >On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >> I only hope (and i believe this is true) that there are plenty of >> brilliant programmers who can overturn any roadblock M$ puts in front >> of other OS's. Like this Kerberos issue. What can Unix admins do to >> allow unix machines to work with w2k file and print servers now? M$ >> is trying to lock them out. Is there a way around it? > >Sure. Don't use MS software. Very simple. If only it were that simple. Unix at least recognizes that other OS's may exist, and standards for exchange exist. Some companies have needs that are only served by M$ machines (some e-commerce, special purpose apps, and all the secretaries who want to run Word) and they need these machines to network with Unix machines. Unix plays fair, M$ doesn't. But some businesses have already invested in M$ workstations. Are you suggesting they all scrap their systems, then switch to and re-train on Unix? That seems unreasonable. Even many of the most passionate of Unix supporters here on this list at least admit that it is poor reasoning to assume one OS can do *everything* as well as any other OS. It is unfair that M$ does *not* recognize that fact, and makes its software in harmony with that reasoning. > >David > > -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 11:50:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC6237BD65 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:50:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA55431; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:48:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:48:58 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > > >On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > >> I only hope (and i believe this is true) that there are plenty of > >> brilliant programmers who can overturn any roadblock M$ puts in front > >> of other OS's. Like this Kerberos issue. What can Unix admins do to > >> allow unix machines to work with w2k file and print servers now? M$ > >> is trying to lock them out. Is there a way around it? > > > >Sure. Don't use MS software. Very simple. > > If only it were that simple. Unix at least recognizes that other OS's Simple is not equal to easy. > may exist, and standards for exchange exist. Some companies have If you want things to follow standards, you have to pressure suppliers to follow them. Not using purposefully broken software is a start. > needs that are only served by M$ machines (some e-commerce, special > purpose apps, and all the secretaries who want to run Word) and they > need these machines to network with Unix machines. Unix plays fair, > M$ doesn't. But some businesses have already invested in M$ > workstations. Are you suggesting they all scrap their systems, then > switch to and re-train on Unix? That seems unreasonable. Even many > of the most passionate of Unix supporters here on this list at least > admit that it is poor reasoning to assume one OS can do *everything* > as well as any other OS. It is unfair that M$ does *not* recognize > that fact, and makes its software in harmony with that reasoning. The very few things that UNIX machines don't do for me aren't solved by any MicroSoft products. I use UN*X boxes for almost everything. (I have a windows box at work, because they make me use exchange. It gets used much less than the two UNIX boxes it shares the desk with.) The only things I don't have that I would like are a really good spreadsheet-- though I haven't had a chance to look at gnumeric lately -- and something like Visio. Everything else I am perfectly happy with the UNIX tools. I don't play games, though. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 12:13:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8575B37BC0A for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:13:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Pt10-000I27-00; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:13:06 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA70782; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:13:05 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:13:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You don't think Windows has any good spreadsheets? -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 12:28:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB3D37B996 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:28:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA65058; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:26:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:26:53 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > You don't think Windows has any good spreadsheets? No, there aren't any good ones for UNIX. Early versions of Excell (before they changed the macro language) were okay. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 13: 6:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E94937BD60 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:06:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.233.68] (dialup889.brussels2.skynet.be [194.78.238.57]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA38124CA; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:05:56 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:44:22 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick , David Scheidt From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: We got a mention! Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:13 PM +0000 2000/2/29, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > It is unfair that M$ does *not* recognize > that fact, and makes its software in harmony with that reasoning. In fact, I believe that it is precisely this point on which Microsoft would disagree. If they felt that it was okay for other OSes to exist, then they wouldn't bother with things like the TerraServer project where they try to take something like NT and make it do something it is just about the worst possible choice for. They wouldn't be trying to FUD Unix out of existence if they felt that it was okay for it to exist. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 15:23: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cage.tse-online.de (cage.tse-online.de [194.97.69.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8ABE337B9C2 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@cage.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 68299 invoked by uid 1000); 29 Feb 2000 23:23:13 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:23:13 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! Message-ID: <20000301002313.G31341@cage.tse-online.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:48:58PM -0600 Organization: TSE GmbH - Neue Medien Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:48:58PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > The very few things that UNIX machines don't do for me aren't > solved by any MicroSoft products. I use UN*X boxes for almost > everything. me too. And - since I'm the 'boss' I would even have the power to switch away from Microsoft products for the whole office. We'll certainly ditch MS Office (currently we're still using Office 95) later this year and will using StarOffice or Applix. But we just can't replace Windows NT itself, because I really don't know any software aequivalent to Photoshop, Freehand and various other graphics and design oriented packages. Mac OS X might be a valid option in the near future, but then we would have to ditch the hardware, too. > (I have a windows box at work, because they make me use exchange. hi hi. We do our 'contact management' with symantecs 'Act!' and this is the one and only Windows-Software I've really used during the last 6 months. If I only could take the time to install vmware on my primary workstation ... > shares the desk with.) The only things I don't have that I would > like are a really good spreadsheet-- though I haven't had a chance hmm. What's the matter with StarOffice's or Applix's spreadsheet that they break for you? > and something like Visio. yes. > Everything else I am perfectly happy with the UNIX tools. Further 'special purpose' application my wife needs for her profession (and I in my rare freetime): a _decent_ midi-sequencer, harddisk-recording, music destop publishing (something like 'coda finale'). > I don't play games, though. games? I don't need any computers for this kind of stuff :) -Andreas -- : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 15:29:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B148A37B909 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:29:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([168.176.3.33]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6384 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:29:32 -0500 Message-ID: <38BC54C6.BE303628@asme.org> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:22:46 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Reply-To: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Pictures of the artist-previously-known-as-Chuck ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Howdy, I have an old copy of Autodesk 3D Studio and I decided to give it good use by creating some FreeBSD splash screens. While I get used to the package, I'll probably just create some letters and render them on top of a nice wallpaper. Anyone know of a good source of Chuck related pictures? (Since I doubt .3ds or .dxf stuff exist, .gif or . tga files are OK). TIA, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 15:30: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.aracnet.com (mail4.aracnet.com [216.99.193.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950F137B90E for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:29:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (IDENT:root@shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail4.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23361; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:30:09 -0800 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id PAA00646; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:31:31 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:31:31 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Andreas Braukmann Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: <20000301002313.G31341@cage.tse-online.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > don't know any software aequivalent to Photoshop, Freehand and > various other graphics and design oriented packages. > Mac OS X might be a valid option in the near future, but then we > would have to ditch the hardware, too. The GIMP is a good replacement for Photoshop. > > Everything else I am perfectly happy with the UNIX tools. > Further 'special purpose' application my wife needs for her > profession (and I in my rare freetime): > a _decent_ midi-sequencer, harddisk-recording, music destop publishing > (something like 'coda finale'). I forget what the name was, Rosebud or something similiar does Midi stuff. Even allows for a keyboard input. I belive I installed it right out of the ports collection, though I don't see it now. I remeber it being a Linux package though and was increadibly easy to setup. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 20:23:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6892E37BE5F for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from xyzzy@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 14) id 88FC2758B; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:28:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:28:27 -0800 From: GothGeek Sysadmin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: We got a mention! Message-ID: <20000229202827.Y61564@moo.sysabend.org> References: <20000301002313.G31341@cage.tse-online.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from hamellr@aracnet.com on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 03:31:31PM -0800 Organization: TBI, Ltd X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE X-I-Need-To-Get-Laid: Badly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 03:31:31PM -0800, Rick Hamell wrote: > > profession (and I in my rare freetime): > > a _decent_ midi-sequencer, harddisk-recording, music destop publishing > > (something like 'coda finale'). > > I forget what the name was, Rosebud or something similiar does > Midi stuff. Even allows for a keyboard input. I belive I installed it > right out of the ports collection, though I don't see it now. I remeber it > being a Linux package though and was increadibly easy to setup. Being a Microsoft-Hater and also a wannabe-musician, I have been fighting with FreeBSD for the last couple months. Running -Current, buying new hardware so I could work around new driver issues faster. Wedging the newmidi driver into this rapidly changing environment. ( Yes, Rosegarden will compile, but it does nothing usefull for me without supporting an MPU401 interface which alas FreeBSD hasnt done out of the box for years ) When I gave up, I even tried linux. Stability and the same changing driver landscape almost drove me to the brink... Seems that people want to support MIDI as being just another chunk of their soundcard. And compared to the commercial software packages, I've tried everything on the 'Sound & Midi Software for Linux' page and they just arnt on the edge where the commercial software is. Even looked at BeOS, but the only package that looks remotely usable is Logic Audio Platinum, which was supposed to be ported last year and still no mention. I love FreeBSD to death. I run on it this laptop, on all my servers, and on a desktop machine at home. But when it came to just wanting to be creative musically, FreeBSD/Linux/etc have just driven me to the edge... So, I'm buying a Mac. ( Hey, I did say I hate Microsoft right? ). I could just throw Win9x on the FreeBSD machine, but I cant bring myself to it. In the last 3 1/2 years I've been using FreeBSD for everything, I've watched it become a very capable *desktop* OS, for everything but the once creative thing I want to work on. *sigh* Sorry for the mostly useless wordage. I've been trying so hard to get that box stable and make FreeBSD usable for me, and its been so painfully frustrating... Its happily running BeOS now not that I'm using it cause the sequencer is horrible, but all the hardware works. Another place to point people looking for Graphics/Audio programs for Linux is http://www.linuxartist.org. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- - Tom Arnold - "...is it a virus, a drug, or a religion?" - Admin Emeritus - Juanita Shrugs. "What's the difference?" - TBI, Ltd - -------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 22: 8:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (fb00.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46E637BC49 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:08:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtjdj.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.205.179]) by fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA24067; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA02434; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: tech_info@threespace.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000229101536.00bc0590@mail.threespace.com> References: <000701bf82af$6e23f080$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> <4.2.2.20000229101536.00bc0590@mail.threespace.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000229221145R.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:11:45 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 18 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Technical Information > Kinda obsessive, isn't it? What, you mean like Microsoft's obsession of dominating computing? > > Hey, I mean if the guy wants to run everything from BeOS to Xenix on his > computer, that's all good. But to hate Windows so much that you'd be > willing to recommend anything else is a little questionable. This is sorta > like having some well-known nut say loudly at a party "Oh, yeah, John and I > hang out all the time!" leaving you to look off at the ceiling or something. > Look, this is -chat. Anything goes. You had no call to resort to ad hominum attacks on the poster. Some of us *do* hate Microsoft that much anyway... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 29 23:15: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cage.tse-online.de (cage.tse-online.de [194.97.69.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E72637C0A4 for ; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:14:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@cage.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 70883 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Mar 2000 07:15:15 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:15:15 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! Message-ID: <20000301081515.H31341@cage.tse-online.de> References: <20000301002313.G31341@cage.tse-online.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from hamellr@aracnet.com on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 03:31:31PM -0800 Organization: TSE GmbH - Neue Medien Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 03:31:31PM -0800, Rick Hamell wrote: > > The GIMP is a good replacement for Photoshop. sorry, I really don't want to seem harsh, but The Gimp is by no means a replacement for Photoshop. Ok. I for myself get along with Gimp quite well, but try to hire a professional screen-designer who knows the in and outs of 'the gimp'. Furthermore there are no localized versions for it. > > a _decent_ midi-sequencer, harddisk-recording, music destop publishing > > (something like 'coda finale'). > I forget what the name was, Rosebud or something similiar does same here. Rosebud is a nice toy, but ... -Andreas -- : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 0: 5: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E3D37BE0E for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA20518 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200003010805.AAA20518@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:05:00 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 4:43:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8A437BB3F for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 04:43:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Q8T1-0008my-00; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:43:03 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA74107; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:43:03 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:43:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Andreas Braukmann Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: <20000301081515.H31341@cage.tse-online.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If someone would give me the email addresses of the support teams for these products and their Windows/Mac competitors, i would be glad to type up a nice letter and show them that a large BSD community is out here waiting to tap into commercial audio/video software. -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very, very brightly." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 6:53:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F4837C348 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977411240A for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:53:14 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:48:02 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Mentions on slashdot... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, Wow! Not only did they pick up the SANE 2000 announcement, but they also got the polygraph benchmarks with Squid & FreeBSD, and yesterday we got the IBM InterJet II announcement as well! Cool! -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 7:25: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C905E37BC64 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28604; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:24:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:24:45 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Andreas Braukmann Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: <20000301002313.G31341@cage.tse-online.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Andreas Braukmann wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 01:48:58PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > > > shares the desk with.) The only things I don't have that I would > > like are a really good spreadsheet-- though I haven't had a chance > hmm. What's the matter with StarOffice's or Applix's spreadsheet > that they break for you? The spreadsheets I have to deal with are these massive multi-worksheet festering heaps of compost. The last time I tried to use Staroffice it barfed on them. That was 3x, though. Has Excel importing improved? I haven't got Applix to see. This is more of an interoperabilty issue than a lack of software, I guess. There's also the issue that I know how to use Excel, and don't have time to learn something else. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 7:28:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F71C37C404 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000301152822.LSUS9076.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A> for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:28:22 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: Subject: Amazon's patent, lawsuit, and boycott Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:34:30 -0800 Message-ID: <000801bf8393$a3a82480$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good morning, The last time I was out at the O'Reilly web site I found out about the amazon patent on their one click ordering feature. I had seen some e-mail signatures saying that someone was boycotting amazon but I hadn't found out about the reason until I read Tim O'Reilly's letter on the subject. The letter is at this site: http://www.ora.com/ask_tim/amazon_patent.html If you feel so inclined there is an open letter you can sign at: http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/amazon_patent.comments.html You might want to look it over John Purser To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 7:30:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4590937C2EA for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12QB4Z-0001i4-00; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:29:59 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA75093; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:29:58 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:29:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Andreas Braukmann , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I bought Applix a month or so ago, but i haven't tried the spreadsheet, other than a very simple on just to see if it worked. There is a new version in production that looks really good. SOme major design changes that make a lot of sense, and they are switching to GTK widgets. Hey, i prefer Qt but i won't complain. -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in this message are the opinions of the mail program only, and not of the writer, his employer, or freebsd-uk.eu.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 7:49:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3302237C4D3 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 07:49:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA37519 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:55:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:55:09 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Another Win2000 Joke Message-ID: <20000301105509.A37486@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From this week's Onion, http://www.theonion.com/onion3607/infograph_3607.html Some more Win2k digs. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 12: 9: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hcisp.net (Stargate.hcisp.net [208.60.89.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D594337BB3F for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:08:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@mysql.com) Received: (qmail 10871 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2000 20:14:37 -0000 Received: from modem5.hcisp.net (HELO threads.polyesthetic.msg) (208.60.89.71) by stargate.hcisp.net with SMTP; 1 Mar 2000 20:14:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 23854 invoked by uid 1001); 1 Mar 2000 20:08:10 -0000 From: "Thimble Smith" Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:08:10 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: showstopper Message-ID: <20000301150810.J6645@threads.polyesthetic.msg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The word "showstopper" has shown up quite a few times on -current recently, in reference to various problems that absolutely must be fixed before 4.0 can be released. But I just have to let this out; a "showstopper" is something really *good*, not something really bad. I should say that the work that's been done on NFS is a real showstopper. The threads package is a showstopper. I just think it'll be too bad if we lose that word entirely from the English language. It's such a nice thing, I think it's tragic for it to get smeared like that. Thanks for listening, Tim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 14:35: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.aracnet.com (mail4.aracnet.com [216.99.193.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFC037BCF4 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:35:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (IDENT:root@shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail4.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA31007; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:35:14 -0800 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id OAA01368; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:36:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:36:41 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Andreas Braukmann Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: <20000301081515.H31341@cage.tse-online.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The GIMP is a good replacement for Photoshop. > sorry, I really don't want to seem harsh, but The Gimp is by > no means a replacement for Photoshop. > Ok. I for myself get along with Gimp quite well, but try to > hire a professional screen-designer who knows the in and outs of > 'the gimp'. Furthermore there are no localized versions for > it. I must be lucky then...:) I know two, granted they're both Linux Freaks and think I should install the latest version of RedHat....:) Granted I perhaps should have said that The GIMP is a good PhotoShop replacement for me....:) On the other hand, I personally wouldn't hire a graphic artist who limits themselves to just one software package. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 15:26:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A707A37BCC9 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:26:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA03730; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:56:07 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:56:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Thimble Smith Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: showstopper Message-ID: <20000302095607.D2905@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000301150810.J6645@threads.polyesthetic.msg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000301150810.J6645@threads.polyesthetic.msg> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 1 March 2000 at 15:08:10 -0500, Thimble Smith wrote: > The word "showstopper" has shown up quite a few times on -current > recently, in reference to various problems that absolutely must be > fixed before 4.0 can be released. But I just have to let this out; > a "showstopper" is something really *good*, not something really > bad. I should say that the work that's been done on NFS is a real > showstopper. The threads package is a showstopper. > > I just think it'll be too bad if we lose that word entirely from > the English language. It's such a nice thing, I think it's tragic > for it to get smeared like that. I think one of the interesting things about language is that it evolves. "Hardware" no longer has the meaning it had sixty years ago. In release terminology, the word "showstopper" has no ambiguity: it's bad. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 15:37:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE69937BCF0 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:37:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA03915 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:07:10 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:07:10 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should make sure that they don't implement it before we do. Greg ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:23:04 -0500 > Organization: IIS > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) > X-Accept-Language: en > To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > Precedence: list > Delivered-To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > Wow, this Single Instance Store sure is an incredible advance in computing... > Do you think we can implement something like this for NetBSD? > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 15:58:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A8637BD3C for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:58:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from dallas ([12.73.242.47]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with ESMTP id <20000301235833.TTQE9754.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@dallas>; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:58:33 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000301183059.00bf3ca0@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:35:07 -0500 To: David Scheidt From: Technical Information Subject: Re: We got a mention! Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, a company that I worked for had standardized on Microsoft Exchange for e-mail and scheduling, but a friendly sysadmin was able to hook up a web-based interface for me since I was using FreeBSD as my primary OS and dual booting into Windows only to read mail. You might look into that. Also, CompUSA has been selling Business Logic's Xess spreadsheet for Linux for about $20 recently. I haven't pushed it too hard, but it's a pretty nice-looking and easy-to-use spreadsheet. Unless you require some pretty esoteric functions, it's probably got you covered. --Chip Morton At 02:48 PM 2/29/00 , David Scheidt wrote: >The very few things that UNIX machines don't do for me aren't solved by any >MicroSoft products. I use UN*X boxes for almost everything. (I have a >windows box at work, because they make me use exchange. It gets used much >less than the two UNIX boxes it shares the desk with.) The only things I >don't have that I would like are a really good spreadsheet-- though I >haven't had a chance to look at gnumeric lately -- and something like Visio. >Everything else I am perfectly happy with the UNIX tools. I don't play >games, though. > >David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 15:58:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB7F37BE96 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:58:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from dallas ([12.73.242.47]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with ESMTP id <20000301235846.TTRW9754.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@dallas>; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:58:46 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000301184705.00be97c0@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:54:04 -0500 To: W Gerald Hicks From: Technical Information Subject: Re: We got a mention! Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20000229221145R.jhix@mindspring.com> References: <4.2.2.20000229101536.00bc0590@mail.threespace.com> <000701bf82af$6e23f080$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> <4.2.2.20000229101536.00bc0590@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:11 AM 3/1/00 , you wrote: > > Hey, I mean if the guy wants to run everything from BeOS to Xenix on his > > computer, that's all good. But to hate Windows so much that you'd be > > willing to recommend anything else is a little questionable. This is > sorta > > like having some well-known nut say loudly at a party "Oh, yeah, John > and I > > hang out all the time!" leaving you to look off at the ceiling or > something. > >Look, this is -chat. Anything goes. You had no call to resort to >ad hominum attacks on the poster. So your answer is to resort to an ad hominum attack against me? Interesting. I didn't see my post as an "attack" against anyone. I simply stated my opinion of someone else's opinion. I think that certain types of "support" can do your cause more harm than good. And while I'm at it, I'll add that I think that Microsoft's OS and applications have a place in the computing landscape. Perhaps not for the users of this list, but I can understand why they have such a large portion of the market share, and I ain't mad at 'em for it. I don't think I've offended Purser, McKitrick, or anyone else who has been involved in this discussion, so I hope you'll understand if I'm not being very apologetic toward you, Hicks. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 16:23:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cage.tse-online.de (cage.tse-online.de [194.97.69.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 948CC37BD39 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@cage.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 78960 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Mar 2000 00:23:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:23:55 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We got a mention! Message-ID: <20000302012355.V31341@cage.tse-online.de> References: <20000301081515.H31341@cage.tse-online.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from hamellr@aracnet.com on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 02:36:41PM -0800 Organization: TSE GmbH - Neue Medien Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 02:36:41PM -0800, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > The GIMP is a good replacement for Photoshop. > > sorry, I really don't want to seem harsh, but The Gimp is by > > no means a replacement for Photoshop. [...] > PhotoShop replacement for me....:) On the other hand, I personally > wouldn't hire a graphic artist who limits themselves to just one > software package. Hmmm. But most of them are used to the mainstream packages. Our designers don't use Photoshop exclusively, but they use it, they are productive in using it, they know all the ins and outs. (Hey, ... but maybe we would be able to switch to Corel Photopaint for Linux; we were very used to Photopaint during the dark ages Photoshop didn't had a multi-level 'undo') All the other packages have no (not even nearly) aequivalents on the unix side. (Fireworks, Freehand(!), for example) -Andreas -- : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 16:56: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E33737BE73 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:55:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 14157 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2000 00:55:41 -0000 Received: from editbeast.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.2) by queasy.outpost.co.nz with SMTP; 2 Mar 2000 00:55:41 -0000 Message-ID: <38BDBC0D.7FF2EB7A@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 13:55:41 +1300 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? References: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp Astounding! Where do they come up with such innovation? Best of all, it took 4 full time staff only 1.5 years to implement. No wonder Windows is the market leader. -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 17:10:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFEB37BE71 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:10:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29831; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:10:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38BDBF85.78ACF033@owp.csus.edu> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 17:10:29 -0800 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? References: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > Greg > > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > > > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:23:04 -0500 > > Organization: IIS > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) > > X-Accept-Language: en > > To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > Precedence: list > > Delivered-To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > > Wow, this Single Instance Store sure is an incredible advance in computing... > > Do you think we can implement something like this for NetBSD? > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp ROFL!!!!!!! I had to double check the url to make sure I wasn't actually reading something on segfault. Ok, ok, I think I've got my composure back. To be honest, this was a feature that I really missed when having to deal with NT. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 17:44: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9579D37BB5D for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:43:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 25430 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2000 01:43:44 -0000 Received: from userbl70.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.144.177) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2000 01:43:44 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00764; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:43:42 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:43:42 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> References: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? > Greg > > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > > > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:23:04 -0500 > > Organization: IIS > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) > > X-Accept-Language: en > > To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > Precedence: list > > Delivered-To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > > Wow, this Single Instance Store sure is an incredible advance in computing... > > Do you think we can implement something like this for NetBSD? > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 17:47:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9545037BDBD for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:47:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 5657 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2000 01:47:21 -0000 Received: from userbl70.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.144.177) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2000 01:47:21 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA00784; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:47:20 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:47:20 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Joseph Scott Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000302014719.C327@marder-1> References: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> <38BDBF85.78ACF033@owp.csus.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38BDBF85.78ACF033@owp.csus.edu>; from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 05:10:29PM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 05:10:29PM -0800, Joseph Scott wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > > > Greg > > > > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > > > > > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:23:04 -0500 > > > Organization: IIS > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) > > > X-Accept-Language: en > > > To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > Precedence: list > > > Delivered-To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > > > > Wow, this Single Instance Store sure is an incredible advance in computing... > > > Do you think we can implement something like this for NetBSD? > > > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > > ROFL!!!!!!! > > I had to double check the url to make sure I wasn't actually reading > something on segfault. > > Ok, ok, I think I've got my composure back. To be honest, this was a > feature that I really missed when having to deal with NT. > You mean you've never heard of "shortcuts"?, the files are even .lnk files :) > -- > > Joseph Scott > joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu > Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 18: 3:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C7D37BEE3 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:03:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net) Received: from ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net ([207.193.186.87]) by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FQR00C38UZCL9@mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:02:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) id UAA14646; Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:01:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:01:48 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Subject: Re: Amazon's patent, lawsuit, and boycott In-reply-to: <000801bf8393$a3a82480$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> To: johnmpurser@home.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Message-id: <200003020201.UAA14646@ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #8: Sat Oct 30 00:56:56 CDT 1999 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply: > Good morning, > > The last time I was out at the O'Reilly web site I found out about the > amazon patent on their one click ordering feature. I had seen some e-mail > signatures saying that someone was boycotting amazon but I hadn't found out > about the reason until I read Tim O'Reilly's letter on the subject. > > The letter is at this site: > http://www.ora.com/ask_tim/amazon_patent.html > > If you feel so inclined there is an open letter you can sign at: > http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/amazon_patent.comments.html > > You might want to look it over > > John Purser prior art exists. i'm surprised the patent was issued. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM kc5vdj@swbell.net IC-706MkII - IC-T81A - HTX-202 - HTX-212 - HTX-404 - KPC3+ - PK-232MBX/DSP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 18:16:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5871737BEEA for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:16:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA29614; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:45:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:45:47 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Mark Ovens Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000301184547.X21720@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000302014342.B327@marder-1>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:43:42AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > > > > > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:23:04 -0500 > > > Organization: IIS > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) > > > X-Accept-Language: en > > > To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > Precedence: list > > > Delivered-To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > > > > Wow, this Single Instance Store sure is an incredible advance in computing... > > > Do you think we can implement something like this for NetBSD? > > > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > * Mark Ovens [000301 18:14] wrote: > On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > > > :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? Urm, Is this: a) really symlinks/hardlinks or, b) a bit cooler... basically identifying duplicate files and merging them to be COW'd if they are ever written to? 'a' is obviously not an innovation, and 'b' seems to be quite a useless feature which brings back memories of the hype behind compressed volumes in the early 90s. I'm sure there's better things a box could do with idle time than search for duplicate files. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 18:27:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54CD937BF11 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:27:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 27308 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2000 02:27:40 -0000 Received: from userbl70.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.144.177) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2000 02:27:40 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01239; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 02:27:39 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 02:27:39 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000302022739.G327@marder-1> References: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> <20000301184547.X21720@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000301184547.X21720@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 06:45:47PM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 06:45:47PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:23:04 -0500 > > > > Organization: IIS > > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) > > > > X-Accept-Language: en > > > > To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > > Precedence: list > > > > Delivered-To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > > > > > > Wow, this Single Instance Store sure is an incredible advance in computing... > > > > Do you think we can implement something like this for NetBSD? > > > > > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > > > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > > > * Mark Ovens [000301 18:14] wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > > > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > > > > > > :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? > > Urm, Is this: > > a) really symlinks/hardlinks or, > b) a bit cooler... basically identifying duplicate files and merging > them to be COW'd if they are ever written to? > > 'a' is obviously not an innovation, and 'b' seems to be quite a useless > feature which brings back memories of the hype behind compressed volumes > in the early 90s. > AFAIK M$ have introduced (what we call) symlinks into Winblows. Several people at work have Windows 2000 Professional (ha-ha) boxes (i.e the cardboard boxes containing the CDs) on their desks (which I drop in the waste-paper bins when I pass:)) so when someone actually installs it I'll check it out. As a humorous aside, we found a magazine article about Pacific Blue, the 8192-processor PowerPC super-computer, and someone has pinned it on the wall with the title "Microsoft spec for an entry-level Windows 2000 PC":) > I'm sure there's better things a box could do with idle time than > search for duplicate files. > > -Alfred -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 18:28:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C0A37BF01 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA04518; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:30:39 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:30:39 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <200003020230.UAA04518@prism.flugsvamp.com> To: bright@wintelcom.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >> > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- >> > > >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > >a) really symlinks/hardlinks or, >b) a bit cooler... basically identifying duplicate files and merging > them to be COW'd if they are ever written to? > >'a' is obviously not an innovation, and 'b' seems to be quite a useless >feature which brings back memories of the hype behind compressed volumes >in the early 90s. > >I'm sure there's better things a box could do with idle time than >search for duplicate files. Um, perhaps in a M$ environment it might make sense. What happens when all umpity-dozen of your MS-Exchange (l)users take it upon themselves to mail the latest joke .gif throughout the company? -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 18:29:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2E2637BEC8 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00114; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:00:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:00:16 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000301190016.Z21720@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200003020230.UAA04518@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003020230.UAA04518@prism.flugsvamp.com>; from jlemon@flugsvamp.com on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 08:30:39PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Jonathan Lemon [000301 18:58] wrote: > In article you write: > >> > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > >> > > > >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > > > >a) really symlinks/hardlinks or, > >b) a bit cooler... basically identifying duplicate files and merging > > them to be COW'd if they are ever written to? > > > >'a' is obviously not an innovation, and 'b' seems to be quite a useless > >feature which brings back memories of the hype behind compressed volumes > >in the early 90s. > > > >I'm sure there's better things a box could do with idle time than > >search for duplicate files. > > Um, perhaps in a M$ environment it might make sense. What happens > when all umpity-dozen of your MS-Exchange (l)users take it upon > themselves to mail the latest joke .gif throughout the company? IIS crashes? I'm still unclear as to what this addresses... -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 18:36:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alive.znep.com (alive.znep.com [207.167.15.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D3337BF1E for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:36:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA39494; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:36:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:36:31 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? In-Reply-To: <20000301190016.Z21720@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Jonathan Lemon [000301 18:58] wrote: > > In article you write: > > >> > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > > >> > > > > >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > > > > > >a) really symlinks/hardlinks or, > > >b) a bit cooler... basically identifying duplicate files and merging > > > them to be COW'd if they are ever written to? > > > > > >'a' is obviously not an innovation, and 'b' seems to be quite a useless > > >feature which brings back memories of the hype behind compressed volumes > > >in the early 90s. > > > > > >I'm sure there's better things a box could do with idle time than > > >search for duplicate files. I really think it is (b). It does seem like a cool thing initially, but scares me. So now if you make a copy of a file for a backup on the same drive, and a sector is toasted for whatever reason, you magically lose both copies. It seems to me that this is a feature that was added from the "damn, we should have had links, too late now" perspective. The idea being that it is too late now to make all the legacy software aware of links and make them deal with them properly and use them, so they can try to hack around it. > > > > Um, perhaps in a M$ environment it might make sense. What happens > > when all umpity-dozen of your MS-Exchange (l)users take it upon > > themselves to mail the latest joke .gif throughout the company? > > IIS crashes? No, IIS has nothing to do with that. The feature they added to w2k to help out your IIS cashes is explained at http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/library/howitworks/iis/iis5techoverview.asp : To make it faster and easier to restart IIS, the reliable restart feature of IIS 5.0 allows an administrator to restart Web services without rebooting the computer. Well. Gee. Thanks for the feature. > I'm still unclear as to what this addresses... Keep it on the Unix level for an easier example. Say someone mails a 100 meg file to 20 people that have mailboxes on a machine. So there will be 100 megs in each /var/mail/user mailbox. The idea behind this feature is that it could magically detect that and combine the bodies to point to a single reference on disk that is read-only; if changes are made, then that block or whatever is copied. Sounds wonderful at first glace. Also sounds very ugly on an implementation level. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 18:41:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584F937BF13 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:41:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19962; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:11:14 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 13:11:14 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Marc Slemko Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alfred Perlstein Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Mar-00 Marc Slemko wrote: > I really think it is (b). It does seem like a cool thing initially, but > scares me. So now if you make a copy of a file for a backup on the > same drive, and a sector is toasted for whatever reason, you magically > lose both copies. > > It seems to me that this is a feature that was added from the > "damn, we should have had links, too late now" perspective. The > idea being that it is too late now to make all the legacy software > aware of links and make them deal with them properly and use them, > so they can try to hack around it. The way it works is you run a magic wand over your system and it chucks out dupes and writes links in their place (thats what the web page implies). Greg Lehey wrote a program to do it for Unix :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 18:43: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C458E37BB77 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:43:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA05118; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:45:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:45:26 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000301204526.A2894@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200003020230.UAA04518@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20000301190016.Z21720@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000301190016.Z21720@fw.wintelcom.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 07:00:16PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Jonathan Lemon [000301 18:58] wrote: > > In article you write: > > >> > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > > >> > > > > >> > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > > > > > >a) really symlinks/hardlinks or, > > >b) a bit cooler... basically identifying duplicate files and merging > > > them to be COW'd if they are ever written to? > > > > > >'a' is obviously not an innovation, and 'b' seems to be quite a useless > > >feature which brings back memories of the hype behind compressed volumes > > >in the early 90s. > > > > > >I'm sure there's better things a box could do with idle time than > > >search for duplicate files. > > > > Um, perhaps in a M$ environment it might make sense. What happens > > when all umpity-dozen of your MS-Exchange (l)users take it upon > > themselves to mail the latest joke .gif throughout the company? > > IIS crashes? That too. :-) But I was thinking that this might be your point b) above, where files have an md5 sum computed and are automatically linked in storage to save space. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 19: 8:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D451037BF03 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:08:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:08:17 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Marc Slemko" , "Alfred Perlstein" Cc: Subject: RE: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:08:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf83f4$8e2cc1e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I really think it is (b). It does seem like a cool thing initially, but > scares me. So now if you make a copy of a file for a backup on the > same drive, and a sector is toasted for whatever reason, you magically > lose both copies. If you're making backup copies of files on the same drive as the files, you deserve to lose anyway. If it links across physical drives, that's another story. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 19:11:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A7937BDBD for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:11:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA05407; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:41:28 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:41:27 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Marc Slemko Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000302134127.N2905@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000301190016.Z21720@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 1 March 2000 at 19:36:31 -0700, Marc Slemko wrote: > On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >> * Jonathan Lemon [000301 18:58] wrote: >>> In article you write: >>>>>> ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- >> I'm still unclear as to what this addresses... > > Keep it on the Unix level for an easier example. Say someone mails > a 100 meg file to 20 people that have mailboxes on a machine. So > there will be 100 megs in each /var/mail/user mailbox. The idea > behind this feature is that it could magically detect that and > combine the bodies to point to a single reference on disk that is > read-only; if changes are made, then that block or whatever is > copied. If it's just for mail, that might be a solution. We did something like that at Tandem decades ago: instead of sending the attachment, send a reference to the attachment. The first time anybody on a node reads the attachment, get it. From then on, retrieve it from the cache. Sound familiar? But I'm pretty sure that's not what they're talking about. They specifically refer to OS files. Maintaining consistency must be a nightmare. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 19:14:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 37C0737BF19; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AC02E8158; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:14:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:14:09 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: David Schwartz Cc: Marc Slemko , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: M$ one-ups UNIX??? In-Reply-To: <000101bf83f4$8e2cc1e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > I really think it is (b). It does seem like a cool thing initially, but > > scares me. So now if you make a copy of a file for a backup on the > > same drive, and a sector is toasted for whatever reason, you magically > > lose both copies. > > If you're making backup copies of files on the same drive as the files, you > deserve to lose anyway. If it links across physical drives, that's another > story. The article talks about how it was intended to link across network drives to a central server, thereby replacing your entire enterprise network with a Microsoft Single Point of Failure 2000 Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 19:45:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A8D37BBE6 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-208-170-118-168.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.170.118.168]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA19663 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:45:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12715 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:45:39 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200003020345.VAA12715@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? In-reply-to: Message from Kris Kennaway of "Wed, 01 Mar 2000 19:14:09 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:45:39 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway writes: > On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > I really think it is (b). It does seem like a cool thing initially, but > > > scares me. So now if you make a copy of a file for a backup on the > > > same drive, and a sector is toasted for whatever reason, you magically > > > lose both copies. > > > > If you're making backup copies of files on the same drive as the files, you > > deserve to lose anyway. If it links across physical drives, that's another > > story. Good practice to make a backup copy before editing a file. I remember a friend had an add-on compressed filesystem on an old Windows machine before MS pre-empted Stacker's rights. He was stymied before realizing the idiot compressed filesystem was too smart in detecting there were now two copies of the file, and too dumb to unshare the link when one was edited. In the end he lost his backup copy because both "copies" got changed when he thought only one was being edited. > The article talks about how it was intended to link across network drives > to a central server, thereby replacing your entire enterprise network with > a Microsoft Single Point of Failure 2000 Even Apple beat MS to this. An alias starting in MacOS 7 knew what floppy, local filesystem, or network filesystem, it came from and would attempt to automount same if needed. You could copy the alias to another Mac and it could still find the original (if it was exported^H^H^H^H^H^H shared) over the network even if the original was not a network link. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 19:50:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D64537BAD1 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:50:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net) Received: from ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net ([207.193.186.87]) by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FQR00DQMZQ94T@mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:44:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) id VAA14879; Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:44:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:44:24 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? In-reply-to: <20000301184547.X21720@fw.wintelcom.net> To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Cc: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Message-id: <200003020344.VAA14879@ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #8: Sat Oct 30 00:56:56 CDT 1999 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply: > > > ----- Forwarded message from Scott Bartram ----- > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:23:04 -0500 > > > > Organization: IIS > > > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) > > > > X-Accept-Language: en > > > > To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > > Precedence: list > > > > Delivered-To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG > > > > > > > > Wow, this Single Instance Store sure is an incredible advance in computing... > > > > Do you think we can implement something like this for NetBSD? > > > > > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp > > > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > > > * Mark Ovens [000301 18:14] wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > > > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > > > > > > :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? > > Urm, Is this: > > a) really symlinks/hardlinks or, > b) a bit cooler... basically identifying duplicate files and merging > them to be COW'd if they are ever written to? > > 'a' is obviously not an innovation, and 'b' seems to be quite a useless > feature which brings back memories of the hype behind compressed volumes > in the early 90s. > > I'm sure there's better things a box could do with idle time than > search for duplicate files. this doesn't address the issue of having dupes intentionally, plus i don't want the master copy of something modified without having a generation-based filesystem, a la VMS. this microsoft thing sounds like more trouble than it's worth. chalk one up to marketing hype over fuctionality. sometimes it's easier to make a direct copy of a tree or something than to use CVS or RCS, and thus you would have untouched dupes out there depending on how far you are along with whatever you are doing.with the mickeysoft method, you would be changing the originals. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM kc5vdj@swbell.net IC-706MkII - IC-T81A - HTX-202 - HTX-212 - HTX-404 - KPC3+ - PK-232MBX/DSP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 20: 0: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96E237BAD1 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:00:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21846; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:29:01 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200003020344.VAA14879@ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:29:01 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, (Alfred Perlstein) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Mar-00 Jim Bryant wrote: > this microsoft thing sounds like more trouble than it's worth. chalk > one up to marketing hype over fuctionality. sometimes it's easier to > make a direct copy of a tree or something than to use CVS or RCS, and > thus you would have untouched dupes out there depending on how far you > are along with whatever you are doing.with the mickeysoft method, you > would be changing the originals. I think you're assuming they're too stupid. I would say it would do COW. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 20: 6:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B562E37BD14 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:06:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net) Received: from ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net ([207.193.186.87]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FQS005XR09HWC@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:56:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) id VAA14930; Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:56:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:55:58 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? In-reply-to: To: marcs@znep.com (Marc Slemko) Cc: bright@wintelcom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: kc5vdj@swbell.net Message-id: <200003020356.VAA14930@ppp-207-193-186-87.kscymo.swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #8: Sat Oct 30 00:56:56 CDT 1999 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply: > To make it faster and easier to restart IIS, the reliable > restart feature of IIS 5.0 allows an administrator to > restart Web services without rebooting the computer. hmmm... this might be too difficult of a concept for winblowz IT departments to comprehend. anyhow, we all know what mickeysoft considers "reliable". muhahahahah! jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KC5VDJ - HF to 23cm KC5VDJ@NW0I.#NEKS.KS.USA.NOAM kc5vdj@swbell.net IC-706MkII - IC-T81A - HTX-202 - HTX-212 - HTX-404 - KPC3+ - PK-232MBX/DSP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ET has one helluva sense of humor, always anal-probing right-wing schizos! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 21: 1: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cornflake.nickelkid.com (cornflake.nickelkid.com [216.116.135.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7EC37BD97 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:01:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by cornflake.nickelkid.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA86444; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:00:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jooji@cornflake.nickelkid.com) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:00:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Marc Slemko Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Marc Slemko wrote: > Keep it on the Unix level for an easier example. Say someone mails > a 100 meg file to 20 people that have mailboxes on a machine. So > there will be 100 megs in each /var/mail/user mailbox. The idea > behind this feature is that it could magically detect that and > combine the bodies to point to a single reference on disk that is > read-only; if changes are made, then that block or whatever is copied. This is already a feature of Microsoft Exchange Server, where it's called Single Instance Message Storage (it's also a feature of umpteen other database-structured mail systems, including crufty old cc:Mail). It's possibly where "Bill Bolosky and two Microsoft colleagues" (who appear to have been thrown under the bus for old Bill, here, in the official credit-for-the-idea department) pulled the idea from. I wouldn't be surprised if we're giving them too much credit, though, by assuming that they haven't merely reinvented true sym/hardlinks for the Winblows 2000 family. Cheers, Mick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 21: 2:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CA137C060 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:02:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA31379; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:00:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:00:50 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Mark Ovens Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? In-Reply-To: <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > > > :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? HISTORY An ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX. The simplified link com- mand conforms to Version 2 of the Single UNIX Specification. So ln(1) is coming up on its thirtieth birthday. I don't remember when symlinks came into the picture. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 21: 6:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953C937BF8B for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:06:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA31898; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:06:34 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:06:33 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: bright@wintelcom.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? In-Reply-To: <200003020230.UAA04518@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > Um, perhaps in a M$ environment it might make sense. What happens > when all umpity-dozen of your MS-Exchange (l)users take it upon > themselves to mail the latest joke .gif throughout the company? Exchange already does this. Most of the cube-mail packages do, and in that sort of case it does make sense. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 23:10:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB1A37BE70 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:10:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA06478; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:38:23 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:38:23 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: David Scheidt Cc: Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000302173823.S2905@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Wednesday, 1 March 2000 at 23:00:50 -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > >> On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should >>> make sure that they don't implement it before we do. >>> >> >> :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? > > > HISTORY > An ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX. The simplified > link command conforms to Version 2 of the Single UNIX > Specification. It's simpler than that: without links, there would be no files. The link just associates the directory entry with the inode. The only thing that UNIX added was a reference count, allowing multiple directory entries for a single file. That in itself was a stroke of genius, of course. > So ln(1) is coming up on its thirtieth birthday. > I don't remember when symlinks came into the picture. I'm pretty sure it was with ffs, which would have been 1982. Missed'em V didn't get them until V.4, effectively about 1989. When they finally got symlinks, they went mad with them. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 1 23:38:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 0B30737C0DC; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EC42E815B; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:38:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:38:32 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Guido van Rooij Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: current.freebsd.org (FTP) In-Reply-To: <20000301100759.A77024@gvr.gvr.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Guido van Rooij wrote: > Yes we do, unlike the US from time to time. Remember FreeBSD Con? > We lost water for 2 days in a row. And at least _we_ > discovered that it is good idea to have a lot of your electricity > undergroud so a small wind will not render whole neighboorhoods > without power ;-))) Apparently Melbourne, Australia, has been having huge power problems recently - one of the state generator stations went down, and so they had to enforce power blackouts several days per week to cope with the fact that they just didn't have enough spare juice in the grid (can you say 'redundant backup'?). This is at the height of the australian summer, too :-( [ I heard the above second-hand from my family who live in adelaide, so apologies if it's not quite correct ] Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 0:49:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BF537BB1D for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:49:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0507612565; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:49:37 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000302100710.G2905@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:38:39 +0100 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:07 AM +1030 2000/3/2, Greg Lehey wrote: > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. So, you have to make sure you have an SHA-1 hash of every file on the system, and every time you go to create a new file, you have to check the SHA-1 hash and compare it against the database, and if you get a collision then you do a binary check to see if they really are the same file. If so, then you put in a soft link or a hard link to the location of the original. But what about permissions and ownership? What if there is a single .cshrc file that exists for the whole system, but then one user decides to go edit theirs -- do we now have to implement copy-on-write for files, and then re-coalesce after the files have been written? It strikes me that this idea opens up a whole lot of issues for general purpose files that I'm not sure we want to even start thinking about right now.... -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 0:49:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B569C37BBC9 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:49:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15DE123B1; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:49:40 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:43:26 +0100 To: Marc Slemko , Alfred Perlstein From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:36 PM -0700 2000/3/1, Marc Slemko wrote: > Keep it on the Unix level for an easier example. Say someone mails > a 100 meg file to 20 people that have mailboxes on a machine. So > there will be 100 megs in each /var/mail/user mailbox. The idea > behind this feature is that it could magically detect that and > combine the bodies to point to a single reference on disk that is > read-only; if changes are made, then that block or whatever is copied. > > Sounds wonderful at first glace. Also sounds very ugly on an > implementation level. Implementing this at the mail system level is one thing, where the mail messages aren't likely to be changed once they're in the mailbox (although they could be deleted). Implementing this at the general-purpose filesystem level is quite another. Besides, unless you're implementing Maildir or something like that, even if this was implemented at the filesystem level, it wouldn't help you with duplicate copies of a message in multiple mailboxes, since the rest of the contents of the mailboxes are not likely to be identical. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 1:41:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (fb00.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.200.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4495737BF88 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:41:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtjiu.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.206.94]) by fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA11833; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 04:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA93116; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) To: tech_info@threespace.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: We got a mention! In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000301184705.00be97c0@mail.threespace.com> References: <4.2.2.20000229101536.00bc0590@mail.threespace.com> <20000229221145R.jhix@mindspring.com> <4.2.2.20000301184705.00be97c0@mail.threespace.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on XEmacs 21.1 (Bryce Canyon) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20000302014522A.jhix@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 01:45:22 -0800 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 990905(IM130) Lines: 23 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > mean if the guy wants to run everything from BeOS to Xenix > > on his computer, that's all good. But to hate Windows so much > > that you'd be willing to recommend anything else is a little > > questionable. This is sorta like having some well-known nut ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > say loudly at a party "Oh, yeah, John and I hang out all the > > time!" leaving you to look off at the ceiling or something. > Look, this is -chat. Anything goes. You had no call to resort > to ad hominum attacks on the poster. Ok, in re-reading your vague statement I see that you might have been talking about the article and not the poster. There was nothing I could see in my post that would constitute a personal attack either. This is not an apology "Morton". -- Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 2:33:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from silmu.st.jyu.fi (silmu.st.jyu.fi [130.234.40.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6F937BFC2 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 02:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paatela@silmu.st.jyu.fi) Received: (from paatela@localhost) by silmu.st.jyu.fi (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA01295; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:32:51 +0200 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:32:51 +0200 From: Heikki Paatela To: David Scheidt Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000302123251.B23719@silmu.st.jyu.fi> References: <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: ; from David Scheidt on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:00:50PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:00:50PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > > > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? > HISTORY > An ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX. The simplified link > com- > mand conforms to Version 2 of the Single UNIX Specification. > > So ln(1) is coming up on its thirtieth birthday. I don't remember when > symlinks came into the picture. Seems that man-page from 2.1.7.1-RELEASE still says: "HISTORY A ln command appeared in Version 6 AT&T UNIX." but 2.2.1 says: "HISTORY A ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX." NetBSD man-pages still say that it appeared in Version 6 - so I am wondering which one is correct? -- Heikki Paatela To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 6:28:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BD737BE51 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:28:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12QWaE-0001Ra-00; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:28:06 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA80466 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:28:06 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:28:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: any news on w2k in the world? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know we were all waiting with bated breath to see what would happen when w2k hit the shelves, so i'd like to ask if anyone has heard any reactions? I recently read on article on 32bitsonline.com (the site that reviewed 3.4 recently) implying that w2k was microsoft's Last Hurrah. I've heard it's pretty darn good. Dramatically improved stability, with a simpler interface, yet more security options. So, what have you sysadmins out there heard? I know we are all biased toward Unix, but is w2k possibly a contender? I know the whole NT-vs-Unix debate has become quite hackneyed, but w2k is a new player in a sense. -=> jm <=- ------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in this message are the opinions of the mail program only, and not of the writer, his employer, or freebsd-uk.eu.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 10: 4:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBB237C4D1 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:04:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brundage@ha1mil.Ebay.Sun.COM) Received: from ebaymail2.EBay.Sun.COM ([129.150.111.20]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02754; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha1mil.EBay.Sun.COM (phys-ha1mila.EBay.Sun.COM [129.150.34.210]) by ebaymail2.EBay.Sun.COM (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1/ENSMAIL,v1.6) with SMTP id KAA18945; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dihedral by ha1mil.EBay.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA24974; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:03:59 -0800 Message-Id: <200003021803.KAA24974@ha1mil.EBay.Sun.COM> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:03:59 -0800 (PST) From: Dean Brundage Reply-To: Dean Brundage Subject: a new microsoft innovation, the symlink To: keown@thegrid.net, dmoreno@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu, dkrout@thegrid.net, jstaker@thegrid.net, delfosse@delfosse.com, dv8@thegrid.net, samizdat@thegrid.net, todd@thegrid.net, pez@thegrid.net, wyvern@thegrid.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 1syJsH5EDwpnmrYrnDqorg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.4 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I got this forwarded to me today. The whole article is good for a laugh. -Dean Unscrambler of eggs. IT Ops aka ITPS aka SunIT aka SunIR aka ENS aka Desktop Support -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There isn't a mome rath that could outgrabe me! -- Nicol Williamson ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:59:26 -0800 (PST) From: Deniz Yasar Subject: a new microsoft innovation, the symlink Microsoft Research Innovations Enhance Windows 2000 REDMOND, Wash., Feb. 28, 2000 -- Three years ago, Bill Bolosky and two Microsoft colleagues were brainstorming technology advances when an idea occurred to them -- why not save operating system disk space by storing duplicate files as links that point to a single file housed in a central location? Not only would this save storage space, they reasoned; it would also result in substantial performance improvements. Moreover, it would make it faster for information technology (IT) managers to install computers for new employees since they?d no longer be required to copy massive amounts of data each time they set up a new desktop. The three sent a memo to Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates outlining the idea. Both Gates and the Windows 2000 product team liked the proposal, and the Windows team asked Bolosky if he could develop the feature himself. During the next 1-1/2 years, Bolosky, a researcher in Microsoft Research?s Systems and Networking Group, and three of his researchers worked full time with the Windows 2000 team to build the technology, now known as the Single Instance Store. "The Single Instance Store recognizes that there?s duplication, coalesces the extra copies and stores the bits once instead of several times," Bolosky said. "So if you have 10 files with the same exact bits, instead of storing this data 10 times, it stores it once. It frees up a lot of space, and you realize performance improvements on the server." A key administrative improvement in Windows 2000, the Single Instance Store is among the many innovations built from the ground up by Microsoft?s research arm "Microsoft Research." Innovations developed by Microsoft researchers consistently find their way into company products. The most recent example of this is the number of innovations that were incorporated into Windows 2000, Microsoft?s flagship operating system, which launched worldwide on Feb. 17. [... More info on this wildly radical and unheard of software concept at: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/02-28w2k.asp Does anybody know the alias for the Solaris product team? We need to integrate this innovative feature into our product. Please forward this mail to anyone you know at Sun. I don't mean to start a commotion, but I do believe our livleyhoods are at stake here. ] -Deniz ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 10:41:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 2675F37BD95; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2211F2E815C; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:41:43 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Hurrah. I've heard it's pretty darn good. Dramatically improved > stability, with a simpler interface, yet more security options. Security isn't a matter of options, it's a process. All of the security knobs in the world won't help you if the product has a poor implementation of the security model. After 5 years in the field, they're STILL finding and fixing security bugs in Windows NT 4. And then they went and rewrote Windows 2000 (more or less) from scratch. Do you believe it to be a secure product? I pity the poor fools who were conned into adopting Windows 2000 before at least service pack 3. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 10:54:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF8837BB7F; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:54:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Qaje-0002ob-00; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:54:06 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA94139; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:54:05 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:54:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Setting security aside for the moment, what about other issues? Overall stability, speed, hardware support, administration, scalability, etc. I am concerned about all this because i *just* got into Unix, and i hoped pursuing a job in the field isn't a waste of time. Now M$ appears with a 'Unix-slayer' OS, at least in their minds, and they put enough time into development and testing to raise a few eyebrows. And unlike previous releases, this one is really getting good reviews. I just heard from someone recently about several banks that switched to NT from Unix. I thought banks would stick to the most robust systems. Apparently i was wrong. -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in this message are the opinions of the mail program only, and not of the writer, his employer, or freebsd-uk.eu.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11: 1:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A4937B54C for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643BE12760; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:01:40 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:58:04 +0100 To: Kris Kennaway , Jonathon McKitrick From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? Cc: freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:41 AM -0800 2000/3/2, Kris Kennaway wrote: > And then they went and rewrote Windows 2000 (more or less) from scratch. > Do you believe it to be a secure product? I pity the poor fools who were > conned into adopting Windows 2000 before at least service pack 3. My understanding is that there are over 65,000 known outstanding bugs with Windows 2000, but they're shipping it anyway. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11: 4:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id AC8E337BD3E; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA11C2E815C; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:04:13 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Setting security aside for the moment, what about other issues? > Overall stability, speed, hardware support, administration, > scalability, etc. No idea. > I am concerned about all this because i *just* got into Unix, and i > hoped pursuing a job in the field isn't a waste of time. Now M$ > appears with a 'Unix-slayer' OS, at least in their minds, and they put > enough time into development and testing to raise a few eyebrows. And > unlike previous releases, this one is really getting good reviews. I really don't think UNIX is going away in the next few years, do you? > I just heard from someone recently about several banks that switched > to NT from Unix. I thought banks would stick to the most robust > systems. Apparently i was wrong. Remind me never to bank with them :) Seriously though, if you saw someone falling off a building, would you assume they had learned the secret of flight, because otherwise they wouldn't have jumped off the building? I think someone posted here a few weeks ago the joke about the classical economist and the physicist, who were walking along the street together, when the physicist looked down and say a $100 note on the side of the road. "Look, someone dropped a $100 note!" he exclaims as he bends down to pick it up. The classical economist doesn't even bother to look down, but replies, "that's quite impossible - if there was a $100 note on the road then someone else would have picked it up long ago". Moral: never assume that just because you see someone make a decision that they did it for smart reasons, or for any reason at all. In the real world businesses are far from being perfectly efficient. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11: 7:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DB137BB7F; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:07:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12QawB-000EVM-00; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:07:03 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA94235; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:07:02 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:07:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > My understanding is that there are over 65,000 known outstanding >bugs with Windows 2000, but they're shipping it anyway. And i heard they could be minor bugs, even spelling mistakes, and that overall it's extremely stable. And the possibly has been suggested that ZDnet had false info. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11: 8:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 930C037BD75; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:08:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9062A2E815C; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:08:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:08:15 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Security isn't a matter of options, it's a process. All of the security > knobs in the world won't help you if the product has a poor implementation > of the security model. After 5 years in the field, they're STILL finding > and fixing security bugs in Windows NT 4. Actually, I should amend the above for the sake of accuracy. Microsoft doesn't, and have never really done, much in the way of finding their own security bugs in released products. They usually rely on outside people to discover the hole, spend a while denying it exists (probably to cover themselves while they furiously try to fix it), then eventually release a patch (the first version of which isn't properly regression tested and breaks a lot of other things), eventually (sometimes months later) releasing a security bulletin which takes all the credit for finding the bug themselves. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11: 8:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FE037BEEE for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:08:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 581AF122D9; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:08:33 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:08:15 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? Cc: freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:54 PM +0000 2000/3/2, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Setting security aside for the moment, what about other issues? > Overall stability, speed, hardware support, administration, > scalability, etc. Can you actually administer the bloody thing remotely, or are you stuck to putting a console on every machine? How many users can you get on a single server -- is it more than 100? Have you ever had a network where you had 6,000 users and you tried to support them on servers where you had to have a keyboard, monitor, and mouse attached to each and every server, and each server could only support 100 users? Talk about your nightmares.... Let's not start on the subject of rebooting the server to install any new software, or fix even the most trivial of problems ("Damn. Exchange crashed again. Now I have to reboot to get it to restart."), or re-installing the OS every five minutes if there is a serious problem. Yeah, right. > I am concerned about all this because i *just* got into Unix, and i > hoped pursuing a job in the field isn't a waste of time. Now M$ > appears with a 'Unix-slayer' OS, at least in their minds, and they put > enough time into development and testing to raise a few eyebrows. And > unlike previous releases, this one is really getting good reviews. It's a demo. Everyone rants and raves about demos. Let them try to drive that carboard car with an aluminum foil engine, and they won't think so highly of the flashy demo. > I just heard from someone recently about several banks that switched > to NT from Unix. I thought banks would stick to the most robust > systems. Apparently i was wrong. Pay them enough money to take crap and they'll bite, just like everyone else. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11:11: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id A5F4937B522; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:11:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32E22E815C; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:11:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:11:07 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > My understanding is that there are over 65,000 known outstanding > >bugs with Windows 2000, but they're shipping it anyway. > > And i heard they could be minor bugs, even spelling mistakes, and that > overall it's extremely stable. And the possibly has been suggested > that ZDnet had false info. I've heard that UNIX is a commie plot to destroy the American way of life, and Microsoft Windows 2000 Young Executive Edition can cure [certain forms of] male pattern baldness. I read this on the Microsoft homepage. Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11:12:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793D937B54C; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:12:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Qb1I-000EY4-00; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:12:20 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA94286; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:12:20 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:12:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Moral: never assume that just because you see someone make a decision that >they did it for smart reasons, or for any reason at all. In the real world >businesses are far from being perfectly efficient. Point taken :-) But regardless of *why* they made the decision, they *did* make it. It reminds me of when i ran a ski shop for my family. Occaisionally a customer would say "Gee, i really wanted to buy these skis from you, but you see, i was in colorado and saw them there, and i decided i just had to have them now. Sorry." Well, i appreciate that they *wanted* to support my business, but that doesn't exactly pay the rent, does it? Moral: The road to hell (or unemployment :-) is paved with good intentions. > >Kris > >---- >In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. > -- Charles Forsythe > > -=> jm <=- Please CC me on all replies ------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in this message are the opinions of the mail program only, and not of the writer, his employer, or freebsd-uk.eu.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11:13:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AAEA37BE2C for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:13:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB7512753; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:13:37 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:12:44 +0100 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:07 PM +0000 2000/3/2, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > And i heard they could be minor bugs, even spelling mistakes, and that > overall it's extremely stable. And the possibly has been suggested > that ZDnet had false info. You "heard". From where? Do you know of any seriously clueful people who've actually gotten their hands on it and given you a first-hand report? Micro$oft is real good at starting grass-roots rumours that make their products sound good and everyone else sound bad. They're the masters of deception. Don't believe *ANYTHING* about *ANYTHING* of theirs, until and unless you either have uncontestable first-hand knowledge yourself, or you have a report from someone you personally know very well and highly respect, and they have uncontestable first-hand knowledge. -- These are my opinions and should not be taken as official Skynet policy ========================================================================= Brad Knowles, Sys. Arch., Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin Note: No Microsoft programs were used in the creation or distribution of this message. If you are using a Microsoft program to view this message, be forewarned that I am not responsible for any harm you may encounter as a result. See for details. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11:14:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A19837B6CD for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:14:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from C37259A ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000302191413.QCQV9076.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@C37259A> for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:14:13 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: Subject: win2k screen shots Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:20:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf847c$59d97d60$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A friend sent me some pretty funny screen shots allegedly from win2k. There's one jpg and three gif format. I don't wan to post them to the list but if anyone could use a chuckle I'll be glad to send them out to you. Just e-mail me and I'll reply with the pictures. John Purser Currently boycotting Amazon.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11:26:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4EF37BAB3; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:26:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA35493; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38BEC002.5AD7CE8@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 11:24:50 -0800 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Setting security aside for the moment, what about other issues? > Overall stability, speed, hardware support, administration, > scalability, etc. Given that the product hasn't been out for the general public for a month yet it's probably a bit overboard to closely examine how well it will do. Let's put it this way, FreeBSD 4.0 gets released on say 10 March, at the rate we are going we would know all there is know about the impact of 4.0 by 2 April. Not very realistic. Back to your question though. Admin : windows needs good scripting ability, NT 4 definitely didn't have it. Does 2000? Don't know. Case in point : try adding 500 windows accounts, point and click all over. In the unix world you'd just script the creation go to town. Speed : MS has never been known to concern itself over running well on minimal resources. I'm sure you can make 2000 run fast, but it will take more hardware to do it. If that's not the case then it will likely be a first for MS. This goes along the same lines with scalability. > I am concerned about all this because i *just* got into Unix, and i > hoped pursuing a job in the field isn't a waste of time. Now M$ > appears with a 'Unix-slayer' OS, at least in their minds, and they put If you step in to the way back machine you'll discover that NT 3.51 was also listed as THE unix slayer. Never happened, at least from where I'm sitting :-) > enough time into development and testing to raise a few eyebrows. And > unlike previous releases, this one is really getting good reviews. Once again, get into the way back machine. Windows tends to get large amounts of good and bad reviews. Depends on what the focus of the review is. One OS can not be the best at everything, the concept of having priorities makes that pretty much impossible. This is of course true for BSD/Unix also. There are trade offs, people have to decide which trade offs they are willing to live with and which ones they are not. > I just heard from someone recently about several banks that switched > to NT from Unix. I thought banks would stick to the most robust > systems. Apparently i was wrong. My guess is you will continue to hear some of these stories. Just as you will continue to hear stories about shops moving from Windows to BSD/Linux/Unix. I'm sure there are banks that switched to NT 4 not too long after it came out also. Does that make their decision a good one? Maybe, maybe not. Goes back to trade offs. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 11:27:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD1437C38F; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:27:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12QbFi-0003iU-00; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:27:14 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA94371; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:27:13 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:27:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > Don't believe *ANYTHING* about *ANYTHING* of theirs, until and >unless you either have uncontestable first-hand knowledge yourself, >or you have a report from someone you personally know very well and >highly respect, and they have uncontestable first-hand knowledge. Of course, that means maybe we should doubt the original report about the 63,000 bugs. Where did that come from? I would love to see it first hand. And i certainly believe it is true. But then, i tend to be a bit gullible. So i should be equally wary of *both* statements. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 14:26:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA5B37B543 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:26:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rich@dynamite.org) Received: from bamf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.173.140] helo=bluescreen.chugaboom.net) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12Qe37-0003te-0W for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:26:25 +0000 Received: from hagbard (unverified [192.168.1.11]) by bluescreen.chugaboom.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:24:30 +0000 Message-ID: From: "Rich Wood" Organization: dynamite.org To: freebsd-chat Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:24:28 -0000 Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Mar 00, at 20:08, Brad Knowles wrote: > Can you actually administer the bloody thing remotely, or are you > stuck to putting a console on every machine? Yes. It now (finally) provides a built-in telnet server. Admittedly this isn't a huge amount of use on NT, but does make it feasible to do many things remotely. More usefully all versions except Professional now include the functionality that was formally sold as Terminal Server, this can be installed in what MS call (IIRC) remote administration mode. This allows you to do pretty much everything remotely that you can do at the console. > How many users can you > get on a single server -- is it more than 100? Depends what you do. > Let's not start on the subject of rebooting the server to install any > new software, or fix even the most trivial of problems ("Damn. > Exchange crashed again. Now I have to reboot to get it to restart."), > or re-installing the OS every five minutes if there is a serious > problem. MS have (supposidly) removed a lot of requirements to reboot now, quite how many I'm not sure yet. However if you need to reboot NT servers frequently you are doing something wrong. The NT servers that I support for a living generally only get rebooted for upgrades or power failures. Rich -- rich@dynamite.org rich@FreeBSD.org.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 15: 8:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF30137B547 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:08:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA12708; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:08:14 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:08:13 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Rich Wood Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Rich Wood wrote: > quite how many I'm not sure yet. > > However if you need to reboot NT servers frequently you are doing > something wrong. The NT servers that I support for a living > generally only get rebooted for upgrades or power failures. Depends on what you do with them. There are massive memory leaks in the kernel; different applications tickle them differently. SQL server has been particulary bad in my experience. Fourtunatly, I don't deal with enough NT to know all the details. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 15:26:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E14C37B61F for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA12440; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:56:17 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:56:17 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Heikki Paatela Cc: David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000303095617.B12352@freebie.lemis.com> References: <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> <20000302123251.B23719@silmu.st.jyu.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000302123251.B23719@silmu.st.jyu.fi> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Thursday, 2 March 2000 at 12:32:51 +0200, Heikki Paatela wrote: > On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:00:50PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: >> On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: >>> On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should >>>> make sure that they don't implement it before we do. >>> :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? >> HISTORY >> An ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX. The simplified >> link com mand conforms to Version 2 of the Single UNIX >> Specification. >> >> So ln(1) is coming up on its thirtieth birthday. I don't remember when >> symlinks came into the picture. > > Seems that man-page from 2.1.7.1-RELEASE still says: > "HISTORY > A ln command appeared in Version 6 AT&T UNIX." > but 2.2.1 says: > "HISTORY > A ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX." > > NetBSD man-pages still say that it appeared in Version 6 - so I am > wondering which one is correct? The First Edition. It's basic to the way the file system functions. Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 17: 1:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dervish.mail.pipex.net (dervish.mail.pipex.net [158.43.192.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7041D37B69F for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:01:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 14462 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2000 00:57:36 -0000 Received: from userau42.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.137.244) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2000 00:57:36 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01186; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:29:34 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:29:34 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: John Purser Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: win2k screen shots Message-ID: <20000303002933.A327@marder-1> References: <000001bf847c$59d97d60$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000001bf847c$59d97d60$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com>; from johnmpurser@home.com on Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 11:20:01AM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 11:20:01AM -0800, John Purser wrote: > A friend sent me some pretty funny screen shots allegedly from win2k. > There's one jpg and three gif format. I don't wan to post them to the list > but if anyone could use a chuckle I'll be glad to send them out to you. > Just e-mail me and I'll reply with the pictures. > I wouldn't mind a copy please John. > > John Purser > > Currently boycotting Amazon.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 17: 1:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dervish.mail.pipex.net (dervish.mail.pipex.net [158.43.192.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D26837BF81 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:01:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 14463 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2000 00:57:38 -0000 Received: from userau42.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.137.244) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2000 00:57:38 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01204; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:33:36 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:33:36 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Joseph Scott Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? Message-ID: <20000303003336.B327@marder-1> References: <38BEC002.5AD7CE8@owp.csus.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38BEC002.5AD7CE8@owp.csus.edu>; from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu on Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 11:24:50AM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 11:24:50AM -0800, Joseph Scott wrote: > > Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > > Setting security aside for the moment, what about other issues? > > Overall stability, speed, hardware support, administration, > > scalability, etc. > > Given that the product hasn't been out for the general public for a > month yet it's probably a bit overboard to closely examine how well it > will do. Let's put it this way, FreeBSD 4.0 gets released on say 10 > March, at the rate we are going we would know all there is know about > the impact of 4.0 by 2 April. Not very realistic. > > Back to your question though. Admin : windows needs good scripting > ability, NT 4 definitely didn't have it. Does 2000? Don't know. > Case in point : try adding 500 windows accounts, point and click all > over. In the unix world you'd just script the creation go to town. > Speed : MS has never been known to concern itself over running well > on minimal resources. I'm sure you can make 2000 run fast, but it > will take more hardware to do it. If that's not the case then it will > likely be a first for MS. This goes along the same lines with > scalability. Well, we just installed it on what M$ state as minimum spec hardware (P133, 64MB - although it will install with 32MB according to the box) mainly so we would have an idea what to recommend to customers when they ask if they can/should upgrade(?). It runs like a dog and, immediately after booting, has already swapped out 15MB. -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 17:15:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4F837B517 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA13416 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:45:19 +1030 (CST) Received: from rider.dunham.org (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA13393 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:41:17 +1030 (CST) Received: (from dunham@localhost) by rider.dunham.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA28481; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:08:43 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <20000302190843.I23980@rider.dunham.org> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:08:43 -0600 From: Jerry Dunham To: Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , Sue Blake , Bob Hanlon , joerg@begemot.org, damon@chiba.3jane.net, Michael Smith , gool@fc.net, Rolla McCrary , luststar@aol.com Cc: Andrew Dunham Subject: Re: Roswell, 1947 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD rider.dunham.org 2.2.6-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ROSWELL, N.M. (AP) -- Today, the United States Air Force issued a long-awaited report about the "Roswell Incident" in which some people claim that software from Microsoft functioned correctly in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947. As expected, the government's 261-page report denied that there had ever been any evidence that this had ever happened, despite eyewitness reports to the contrary. The report claims that what witnesses actually saw was an experimental Macintosh running a variation of Unix, or perhaps an experimental Unix machine using a form of the MacOS. Although the official Air Force position is that this is their final report on the matter, long-time Microsoft devotees are not satisfied. "We know it really happened," said Gil Bates, spokesman for a group of Microsoft enthusiasts who call themselves "The .exe-files". The group's claim of having seen Windows run without crashing is tainted by the revelation earlier this year that some members had falsified evidence by doctoring output from standard Unix utilities and passing it off as Windows data files. -- Jerry Dunham FreeBSD (512)335-0674 (H) jdunham@fc.net jerry@dunham.org Morals for sale, never used. Contact Bill Clinton. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 2 18: 5:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17F7537B5D6; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:05:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA42213; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:08:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:08:43 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? Message-ID: <20000302210843.A42084@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 08:12:44PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 08:12:44PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: [snip] > Don't believe *ANYTHING* about *ANYTHING* of theirs, until and > unless you either have uncontestable first-hand knowledge yourself, > or you have a report from someone you personally know very well and > highly respect, and they have uncontestable first-hand knowledge. Eye-witness testimony, that is anecdotal evidence, is inherently unreliable. Reports from a handful of others is usually not very useful. Too easy for one outlier to skew the sample. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 6: 8:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (happy.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1E637B570 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:07:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@happy.checkpoint.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA61136; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 16:05:52 GMT (envelope-from mellon) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 16:05:52 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Heikki Paatela Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? Message-ID: <20000303160552.A61072@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> <20000302123251.B23719@silmu.st.jyu.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000302123251.B23719@silmu.st.jyu.fi>; from paatela@st.jyu.fi on Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 12:32:51PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 12:32:51PM +0200, Heikki Paatela wrote: > > Seems that man-page from 2.1.7.1-RELEASE still says: > "HISTORY > A ln command appeared in Version 6 AT&T UNIX." > but 2.2.1 says: > "HISTORY > A ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX." > > NetBSD man-pages still say that it appeared in Version 6 - so I am wondering > which one is correct? From the revision history in CVS: 1.3 log @[HISTORY] command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX Obtained from: A Quarter Century of UNIX, Peter H. Salus, page 41 @ The change occurred between 2.1.7 and 2.2.0. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 6:21:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nscache2.x-treme.gr (mail1.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2835E37B5B2 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:21:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat14.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.206]) by nscache2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with SMTP id QAA08256 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 16:20:59 +0200 Received: (qmail 20394 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Mar 2000 12:59:07 -0000 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:59:07 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? Message-ID: <20000303145907.B20320@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@hub.freebsd.org on Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 11:11:07AM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 11:11:07AM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > I've heard that UNIX is a commie plot to destroy the American way of life, > and Microsoft Windows 2000 Young Executive Edition can cure [certain forms > of] male pattern baldness. I read this on the Microsoft homepage. My precious bodily fluids have been contaminated by Emacs on Unix for so long that I think that even if I installed Win2k, very little hope exists for me to be "saved". Nice to know that there might exist a cure for my condition though :) -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > For my public PGP key: finger keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr PGP fingerprint, phone and address in the headers of this message. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 6:21:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.x-treme.gr (mail2.x-treme.gr [212.120.196.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AAD37B61C for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:21:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (pat14.x-treme.gr [212.120.197.206]) by mail2.x-treme.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3/IPNG-ADV-ANTISPAM-0.1) with SMTP id QAA17670 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 16:20:59 +0200 Received: (qmail 20356 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Mar 2000 12:57:09 -0000 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:57:09 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mark Ovens Cc: Joseph Scott , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? Message-ID: <20000303145708.A20320@hades.hell.gr> Reply-To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr References: <38BEC002.5AD7CE8@owp.csus.edu> <20000303003336.B327@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000303003336.B327@marder-1>; from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org on Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 12:33:36AM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 62 45 D1 C9 26 F9 95 06 D6 21 2A C8 8C 16 C0 8E X-Phone-Number: +30-94-6203692, +30-93-2886457 X-Address: Theodorou Kirinaiou 61, 26334 Patra, Greece Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 12:33:36AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Well, we just installed it on what M$ state as minimum spec hardware > (P133, 64MB - although it will install with 32MB according to the > box) mainly so we would have an idea what to recommend to customers > when they ask if they can/should upgrade(?). It runs like a dog and, > immediately after booting, has already swapped out 15MB. Seems that 64 Mb is not enough for the system to boot, doesn't it. I've heard of people who installed it on 128 Mb systems and only by disabling things like "simple internet services" (this is the MS-speak for inetd's echo/discard/chargen/etc.) managed to get the memory usage right after boot to be under 50 Mb. This means that memory consumption of that beast actually *can* be reduced, but then new questions are brought forth. Such as, how come echo+discard+chargen take that 10 Mb of memory. The programmers of inetd must have been real geniouses making the whole thing fit in a VSIZE of approximately 1.2 Mb. Ah, well. I'l stick to my FreeBSD for the 32 Mb of ram I got, and a few other things that make me happy on a Unix box. -- Giorgos Keramidas, < keramida @ ceid . upatras . gr > For my public PGP key: finger keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr PGP fingerprint, phone and address in the headers of this message. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 6:33:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8D537B5BD; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:33:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12Qt9G-0006eK-00; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:33:46 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA98179; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:33:46 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:33:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Kris Kennaway , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: <20000303145907.B20320@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >My precious bodily fluids have been contaminated by Emacs on Unix for >so long that I think that even if I installed Win2k, very little hope >exists for me to be "saved". Nice to know that there might exist a >cure for my condition though :) I've dogdged the emacs bug, but VI got me! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 7:24:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 736C837B61C; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 07:24:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA31835; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:22:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:22:32 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Kris Kennaway , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > >My precious bodily fluids have been contaminated by Emacs on Unix for > >so long that I think that even if I installed Win2k, very little hope > >exists for me to be "saved". Nice to know that there might exist a > >cure for my condition though :) > > I've dogdged the emacs bug, but VI got me! ed. The one true editor. So good, they named the application type after it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 8:45:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C09037B639 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:45:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@inu.net) Received: from inu.net [208.129.164.4] by mail.inu.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC074D540146; Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:44:55 -0600 Message-ID: <38BFEB64.D1EF14D3@inu.net> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:42:12 -0600 From: Bob Martin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Heikki Paatela Cc: David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? References: <20000302014342.B327@marder-1> <20000302123251.B23719@silmu.st.jyu.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heikki Paatela wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:00:50PM -0600, David Scheidt wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:07:10AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > Just saw this on a NetBSD list. It looks like a good idea. We should > > > > make sure that they don't implement it before we do. > > > :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? > > HISTORY > > An ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX. The simplified link > > com- > > mand conforms to Version 2 of the Single UNIX Specification. > > > > So ln(1) is coming up on its thirtieth birthday. I don't remember when > > symlinks came into the picture. > > Seems that man-page from 2.1.7.1-RELEASE still says: > "HISTORY > A ln command appeared in Version 6 AT&T UNIX." > but 2.2.1 says: > "HISTORY > A ln command appeared in Version 1 AT&T UNIX." > > NetBSD man-pages still say that it appeared in Version 6 - so I am wondering > which one is correct? > > -- > Heikki Paatela > My version 3 manual from USL says that it first appeared in version 1. Bob Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 9:29:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A4837BA6F for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA87383; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:29:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:29:26 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003031729.SAA87383@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pictures of the artist-previously-known-as-Chuck ? X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <89hkqh$1fb8$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Posted & mailed according to Reply-To) Pedro F. Giffuni wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > [...] > Anyone know of a good source > of Chuck related pictures? (Since I doubt .3ds or .dxf stuff exist, .gif > or . tga files are OK). There's some stuff at http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/ If you're looking at very high-resolution images, try this one: http://www.fromme.com/t-shirt/fbsd-shirt-large.jpg (It's an image that I scanned for making T-shirts.) Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 9:59:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9887E37B635 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA77051; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:59:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:59:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co Subject: Re: Pictures of the artist-previously-known-as-Chuck ? In-Reply-To: <200003031729.SAA87383@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Oliver Fromme wrote: > (Posted & mailed according to Reply-To) > Pedro F. Giffuni wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > > [...] > > Anyone know of a good source > > of Chuck related pictures? (Since I doubt .3ds or .dxf stuff exist, .gif > > or . tga files are OK). > > There's some stuff at http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/ > If you're looking at very high-resolution images, try this one: > http://www.fromme.com/t-shirt/fbsd-shirt-large.jpg > (It's an image that I scanned for making T-shirts.) http://www.svaha.net/daemon/ -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 10:11:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8AF937B65D for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:11:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12QwXo-000O5n-00; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:11:20 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA99293 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:11:20 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:11:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: NT clusters running MS SQL Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, since this is chat and i haven't found the proof yet, has anyone heard of an NT cluster running MS SQL server that blew the doors off a similar Unix setup? I don't have the details, and i don't want to spread FUD, but this was referred to by someone who is a Unix fan and who thinks this is a warning that Unix shouldn't rest on its laurels. I also heard Linux running Oracle is also fast. I don't know.... <...searching...> I found some details at TPC's site. yes, the hardware was very different, but NT and MS SQL Server look like real contenders... Is there anything we can do to get BSD on this list? Or is this one of those 'you have to pay to play' games? -=> jm <=- ------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in this message are the opinions of the mail program only, and not of the writer, his employer, or freebsd-uk.eu.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 10:11:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.aracnet.com (mail4.aracnet.com [216.99.193.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42EEC37B65D for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:11:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from beattie@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (IDENT:root@shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail4.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00433; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:11:38 -0800 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id KAA31994; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:13:20 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:13:20 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Beattie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Koster, K.J." Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > "Koster, K.J." wrote: > > > > Oh, those Americans. :-) > > > > Let's see: $1 per gallon in the US. $1.2 per litre in the Netherlands, times > > 4.5 (or thereabouts) is $5.4 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > > > Everyone in the Netherlands drives cars; everyone thinks gas is expensive. > > This means that the gas prices in the US can go up 440% and people will > > still drive cars and buy gas (and complain about gas prices, of course). > > First, this off-topic for -hackers, so I've directed replies to -chat > if you want to continue. > > Second, I know people that commute distances that would cross your > country. I suspect the average American uses a lot more gas than the > average Nederlander. > > Third, our gas prices here are held down by all sorts of weird > government intervention, bizarre market shenanigans, and a public that > doesn't understand that the price of gasoline has risen only 4x in the > same period that the price of cars has risen 10x. That's certainly > NOT a "natural occurence". > > Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go > DOWN, not UP. > Hmmm, the idea that the last "Great Gas-out" and any effect on prices, is, ... amusing ... at best. "Those Americans" may be right for different reasons. > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > Brian Beattie | The only problem with beattie@aracnet.com | winning the rat race ... www.aracnet.com/~beattie | in the end you're still a rat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 10:59: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9AFC737B727 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 19626 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2000 18:31:58 -0000 Received: from useras99.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.137.103) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2000 18:31:58 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01075; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:32:15 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:32:15 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brian Beattie Cc: chat@freebsd.org, "Koster, K.J." Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000303183214.A327@marder-1> References: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from beattie@aracnet.com on Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 10:13:20AM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 10:13:20AM -0800, Brian Beattie wrote: > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > "Koster, K.J." wrote: > > > > > > Oh, those Americans. :-) > > > > > > Let's see: $1 per gallon in the US. $1.2 per litre in the Netherlands, times > > > 4.5 (or thereabouts) is $5.4 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > > It's 4.54 litres per *imperial* gallon, a US gallon is smaller (20% smaller) coz their pints are smaller (16 fluid oz. against 20). So, that's 3.63 litres per US gallon, or US$4.36 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > > Everyone in the Netherlands drives cars; everyone thinks gas is expensive. > > > This means that the gas prices in the US can go up 440% and people will > > > still drive cars and buy gas (and complain about gas prices, of course). > > > > First, this off-topic for -hackers, so I've directed replies to -chat > > if you want to continue. > > > > Second, I know people that commute distances that would cross your > > country. I suspect the average American uses a lot more gas than the > > average Nederlander. > > > > Third, our gas prices here are held down by all sorts of weird > > government intervention, bizarre market shenanigans, and a public that > > doesn't understand that the price of gasoline has risen only 4x in the > > same period that the price of cars has risen 10x. That's certainly > > NOT a "natural occurence". > > > > Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go > > DOWN, not UP. > > > > Hmmm, the idea that the last "Great Gas-out" and any effect on prices, > is, ... amusing ... at best. "Those Americans" may be right for different > reasons. > > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > > Brian Beattie | The only problem with > beattie@aracnet.com | winning the rat race ... > www.aracnet.com/~beattie | in the end you're still a rat > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 11:12:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp (ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp [210.234.123.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C5937B697; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:12:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from knu@idaemons.org) Received: from daemon.local.idaemons.org (pc343042.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp [203.140.143.42]) by ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp (8.9.1/3.7W 06/01/99) with ESMTP id EAA16652; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 04:12:43 +0900 (JST) Received: by daemon.local.idaemons.org (8.9.3/3.7W) id EAA69695; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 04:12:11 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 04:12:10 +0900 Message-ID: <86putbc1h1.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> From: "Akinori -Aki- MUSHA" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: shin@nd.net.fujitsu.co.jp, imp@village.org, dcs@newsguy.com, green@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/contrib chapter.sgml In-Reply-To: In your message of "Fri, 03 Mar 2000 16:26:35 +0900" <20000303162635G.shin@nd.net.fujitsu.co.jp> References: <38BE7B3D.AF373040@newsguy.com> <200002280315.TAA81734@freefall.freebsd.org> <200003021809.LAA16928@harmony.village.org> <20000303162635G.shin@nd.net.fujitsu.co.jp> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.2.18 (Please Forgive Me) EMIKO/1.13.11 (Euglena viridis) FLIM/1.13.2 (Kasanui) APEL/10.1 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 8) (Bryce Canyon) (i386--freebsd) Organization: Associated I. Daemons MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by EMIKO 1.13.11 - "Euglena viridis") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi. (I moved the place to freebsd-chat) At Fri, 03 Mar 2000 16:26:35 +0900, Inoue-san wrote: > > Warner > > > > [*] I picked "hisashi" from my email archive of names. I hope that > > I've not given yamamoto-san a female name. I don't know enough about > > Japanese names to know one way or the other. > > I think hisashi will be a name for a male, in very high > probability. :-) > > Cheers, > Yoshinobu Inoue Yeah, undoubtedly. Although it's difficult to guess male or female by a Japanese name written in alphabets, I'd show some simple rules... (Sort of the first match wins principle applies) Japanese names: - of more than four syllables (or kana rather) are definitely male. (>99%) e.g. Jun'ichiro, Yoshinobu, Akinori - that end with "ko" are definitely female. (>99%) e.g. ONO Yoko, Masako (Japanese crown princess) - that end with /[aeiou]o/ are probably male. (>95%) e.g. Takao, Akio - that end with "shi" are definitely male. (>99%) e.g. Takeshi, Hiroshi - that end with /[aiou]e/ are definitely female. (>99%) e.g. MORI Hanae, Yukie - that end with "na" are definitely female. (>99%) e.g. Kana, Nana - that end with "mi" are probably female, but possibly male. (>80%) e.g. Emi, Mayumi - that contain /[dgjz]/ are likely male. (>80%?) e.g. OBUCHI Keizo, Koji, Hideki - of *BSD users are mysteriously, definitely male. (>99%) e.g. ;-) More rules can be found, but note that every rule has its exceptions. To be honest, I wish the last one will have lots of exceptions! :-) (Are there any now?) -- / /__ __ / ) ) ) ) / Akinori -Aki- MUSHA aka / (_ / ( (__( "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 11:26: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108FD37B66F for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA10549; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:25:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:25:54 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003031925.UAA10549@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/contrib chapter.sgml X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <89p311$30gi$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Akinori -Aki- MUSHA wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > Although it's difficult to guess male or female by a Japanese name > written in alphabets, I'd show some simple rules... (Sort of the first > match wins principle applies) Thankyou very much, that's a very helpful set of rules. On a related isue, I'm sometimes confused as to what is the "first name" and what is the "last name" (surname). It seems that there is a convention that Japanese surnames are written in all uppercase letters -- is that right? Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 11:32:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp (ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp [210.234.123.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3610B37B58A; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from knu@idaemons.org) Received: from daemon.local.idaemons.org (pc343042.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp [203.140.143.42]) by ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp (8.9.1/3.7W 06/01/99) with ESMTP id EAA18088; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 04:32:28 +0900 (JST) Received: by daemon.local.idaemons.org (8.9.3/3.7W) id EAA69794; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 04:31:56 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 04:31:55 +0900 Message-ID: <86n1ofc0k4.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> From: "Akinori -Aki- MUSHA" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: shin@nd.net.fujitsu.co.jp, imp@village.org, dcs@newsguy.com, green@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/contrib chapter.sgml In-Reply-To: In your message of "Sat, 04 Mar 2000 04:12:10 +0900" <86putbc1h1.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> References: <38BE7B3D.AF373040@newsguy.com> <200002280315.TAA81734@freefall.freebsd.org> <200003021809.LAA16928@harmony.village.org> <20000303162635G.shin@nd.net.fujitsu.co.jp> <86putbc1h1.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.2.18 (Please Forgive Me) EMIKO/1.13.11 (Euglena viridis) FLIM/1.13.2 (Kasanui) APEL/10.1 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 8) (Bryce Canyon) (i386--freebsd) Organization: Associated I. Daemons MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by EMIKO 1.13.11 - "Euglena viridis") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Urgh... At Sat, 04 Mar 2000 04:12:10 +0900, Akinori -Aki- MUSHA wrote: > - that end with "shi" are definitely male. (>99%) > e.g. Takeshi, Hiroshi And Satoshi, of course. :) -- / /__ __ / ) ) ) ) / Akinori -Aki- MUSHA aka / (_ / ( (__( "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 11:38: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55FB037B6E2; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:38:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA82630; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:36:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:36:29 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: David Scheidt Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Giorgos Keramidas , Kris Kennaway , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, David Scheidt wrote: > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > > >My precious bodily fluids have been contaminated by Emacs on Unix for > > >so long that I think that even if I installed Win2k, very little hope > > >exists for me to be "saved". Nice to know that there might exist a > > >cure for my condition though :) > > > > I've dogdged the emacs bug, but VI got me! > > ed. The one true editor. So good, they named the application type after > it. From a usenet .sig of yesteryear, "Windows, from the people who brought you EDLIN!" Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 12:55:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E4437B528 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:55:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA21862; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:55:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olli) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:55:40 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200003032055.VAA21862@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ one-ups UNIX??? X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <89kh1u$90i$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > :) Greg, can you nail down the year that symlinks first appeared in Unix? According to the FreeBSD manpage, the ln command appeared in V1 AT&T UNIX, which was 1971. However, that one supported hardlinks only. Symlinks where invented much later. The symlink() syscall supposedly appeared in 4.2BSD, which was 1983. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 13:12:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FC237B6AB for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 13:12:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.65.50.161]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <20000303211225.YQNG16527.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com>; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 13:12:25 -0800 Message-ID: <38C0274A.D8E54239@interlog.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:57:46 -0500 From: Paul Griffith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brian Beattie , chat@freebsd.org, "Koster, K.J." Subject: Re: Great Worldwide Gas Out References: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000303183214.A327@marder-1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You mean after the Gulf War, we still have to deal with this sh*t. Hell might as well let Iraq start pumping oil again. Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 10:13:20AM -0800, Brian Beattie wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > "Koster, K.J." wrote: > > > > > > > > Oh, those Americans. :-) > > > > > > > > Let's see: $1 per gallon in the US. $1.2 per litre in the Netherlands, times > > > > 4.5 (or thereabouts) is $5.4 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > > > > > It's 4.54 litres per *imperial* gallon, a US gallon is smaller (20% > smaller) coz their pints are smaller (16 fluid oz. against 20). So, > that's 3.63 litres per US gallon, or US$4.36 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > > > > Everyone in the Netherlands drives cars; everyone thinks gas is expensive. > > > > This means that the gas prices in the US can go up 440% and people will > > > > still drive cars and buy gas (and complain about gas prices, of course). > > > > > > First, this off-topic for -hackers, so I've directed replies to -chat > > > if you want to continue. > > > > > > Second, I know people that commute distances that would cross your > > > country. I suspect the average American uses a lot more gas than the > > > average Nederlander. > > > > > > Third, our gas prices here are held down by all sorts of weird > > > government intervention, bizarre market shenanigans, and a public that > > > doesn't understand that the price of gasoline has risen only 4x in the > > > same period that the price of cars has risen 10x. That's certainly > > > NOT a "natural occurence". > > > > > > Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go > > > DOWN, not UP. > > > > > > > Hmmm, the idea that the last "Great Gas-out" and any effect on prices, > > is, ... amusing ... at best. "Those Americans" may be right for different > > reasons. > > > > > -- > > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > > > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > > > > > Brian Beattie | The only problem with > > beattie@aracnet.com | winning the rat race ... > > www.aracnet.com/~beattie | in the end you're still a rat > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 15:46: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gizmo.internode.com.au (gizmo.internode.com.au [192.83.231.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD7A37BFD7; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:41:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from newton@gizmo.internode.com.au) Received: (from newton@localhost) by gizmo.internode.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00423; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:12:13 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from newton) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:12:13 +1030 From: Mark Newton To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Koster, K.J." , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> X-PGP-Key: http://www.on.net/~newton/pgpkey.txt Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 09:56:08AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > "Koster, K.J." wrote: > > > Oh, those Americans. :-) > > Let's see: $1 per gallon in the US. $1.2 per litre in the Netherlands, > > times 4.5 (or thereabouts) is $5.4 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > Everyone in the Netherlands drives cars; everyone thinks gas is expensive. > > This means that the gas prices in the US can go up 440% and people will > > still drive cars and buy gas (and complain about gas prices, of course). > > First, this off-topic for -hackers, so I've directed replies to -chat > if you want to continue. Sage advice :-) > Second, I know people that commute distances that would cross your > country. I suspect the average American uses a lot more gas than the > average Nederlander. Bah. In Western Australia there's a sheep station called "Little Texas" which just happens to have a land area larger than the state of Texas; I live in Adelaide, so I have to go 600 km East or 3000 km West or 3000 km North to find another population centre with more than 50,000 people; the nearest interstate Capital city is 980 km away. Our cities are also a hell of a lot more widely laid-out than yours: Adelaide, with a pop. of 1.1 million, has the same surface area as New York City. So let's accept that distances in the US are pissant little commuter hops, shall we? :-) > Third, our gas prices here are held down by all sorts of weird > government intervention, bizarre market shenanigans, and a public that > doesn't understand that the price of gasoline has risen only 4x in the > same period that the price of cars has risen 10x. That's certainly > NOT a "natural occurence". Our prices are held *up* by the fact that over 50% of them constitute State and Federal taxes. > Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go > DOWN, not UP. I'm paying A$0.83c/L right now, which is roughly A$3.73/gal, which is roughly US$2.76. That means the US price of petroleum can rise by almost 100% and people still still drive the kind of distances which usually constitute international travel. - mark :-) -- Mark Newton Email: newton@internode.com.au (W) Network Engineer Email: newton@atdot.dotat.org (H) Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82232999 "Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 16: 9:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01E037C1E5; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 16:09:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA24347; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:39:01 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:39:01 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Newton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000304103901.A24172@freebie.lemis.com> References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 4 March 2000 at 10:12:13 +1030, Mark Newton wrote: > On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 09:56:08AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > >> "Koster, K.J." wrote: >> >>> Oh, those Americans. :-) >>> Let's see: $1 per gallon in the US. $1.2 per litre in the Netherlands, >>> times 4.5 (or thereabouts) is $5.4 per gallon in the Netherlands. >>> Everyone in the Netherlands drives cars; everyone thinks gas is expensive. >>> This means that the gas prices in the US can go up 440% and people will >>> still drive cars and buy gas (and complain about gas prices, of course). >> >> First, this off-topic for -hackers, so I've directed replies to -chat >> if you want to continue. > > Sage advice :-) > >> Second, I know people that commute distances that would cross your >> country. I suspect the average American uses a lot more gas than the >> average Nederlander. > > Bah. In Western Australia there's a sheep station called "Little Texas" > which just happens to have a land area larger than the state of Texas; > I live in Adelaide, so I have to go 600 km East or 3000 km West or 3000 km > North to find another population centre with more than 50,000 people; > the nearest interstate Capital city is 980 km away. Melbourne's 750 km. > Our cities are also a hell of a lot more widely laid-out than yours: > Adelaide, with a pop. of 1.1 million, has the same surface area as > New York City. I think you should take a look at Salt Lake City (where Wes lives) before making that sort of claim. SLC is a lot wider than Adelaide. > So let's accept that distances in the US are pissant little commuter > hops, shall we? :-) Depends on the part of the USA. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 17:16: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD76937BF0F; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:15:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01215; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:15:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38C065A3.7492957B@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:23:47 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Newton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Newton wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 09:56:08AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > > "Koster, K.J." wrote: > > > > > Oh, those Americans. :-) > > > Let's see: $1 per gallon in the US. $1.2 per litre in the Netherlands, > > > times 4.5 (or thereabouts) is $5.4 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > > Everyone in the Netherlands drives cars; everyone thinks gas is expensive. > > > This means that the gas prices in the US can go up 440% and people will > > > still drive cars and buy gas (and complain about gas prices, of course). > > > > First, this off-topic for -hackers, so I've directed replies to -chat > > if you want to continue. > > Sage advice :-) > > > Second, I know people that commute distances that would cross your > > country. I suspect the average American uses a lot more gas than the > > average Nederlander. > > Bah. In Western Australia there's a sheep station called "Little Texas" > which just happens to have a land area larger than the state of Texas; > I live in Adelaide, so I have to go 600 km East or 3000 km West or 3000 km > North to find another population centre with more than 50,000 people; > the nearest interstate Capital city is 980 km away. Our cities are also > a hell of a lot more widely laid-out than yours: Adelaide, with a pop. > of 1.1 million, has the same surface area as New York City. > So let's accept that distances in the US are pissant little commuter hops, > shall we? :-) My Dad used to sell coffee to this van full of men working on the Intermountain Power Plant in Delta, Utah. They all lived in or around Jerome, Idaho, about 275 miles from Delta. The 6 of them took turns driving so they wouldn't get too worn out, because they drove there and back every day. I think I'd just get a room and go home on weekends. Pissant little commuter hop? > > Third, our gas prices here are held down by all sorts of weird > > government intervention, bizarre market shenanigans, and a public that > > doesn't understand that the price of gasoline has risen only 4x in the > > same period that the price of cars has risen 10x. That's certainly > > NOT a "natural occurence". > > Our prices are held *up* by the fact that over 50% of them constitute > State and Federal taxes. $0.56 cents/gal here, and most of it wasted in beauracracy. I'm sure yours isn't too different on that front. > > Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go > > DOWN, not UP. > > I'm paying A$0.83c/L right now, which is roughly A$3.73/gal, which is > roughly US$2.76. That means the US price of petroleum can rise by almost > 100% and people still still drive the kind of distances which usually > constitute international travel. Yup. I am, however, contemplating getting something easier on gas (and tires) than my Toyota 4x4. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 17:20:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B15B37B700; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01230; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:19:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38C06697.EA03B156@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:27:51 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <20000304103901.A24172@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Saturday, 4 March 2000 at 10:12:13 +1030, Mark Newton wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 09:56:08AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > > >> "Koster, K.J." wrote: > >> > >>> Oh, those Americans. :-) > >>> Let's see: $1 per gallon in the US. $1.2 per litre in the Netherlands, > >>> times 4.5 (or thereabouts) is $5.4 per gallon in the Netherlands. > >>> Everyone in the Netherlands drives cars; everyone thinks gas is expensive. > >>> This means that the gas prices in the US can go up 440% and people will > >>> still drive cars and buy gas (and complain about gas prices, of course). > >> > >> First, this off-topic for -hackers, so I've directed replies to -chat > >> if you want to continue. > > > > Sage advice :-) > > > >> Second, I know people that commute distances that would cross your > >> country. I suspect the average American uses a lot more gas than the > >> average Nederlander. > > > > Bah. In Western Australia there's a sheep station called "Little Texas" > > which just happens to have a land area larger than the state of Texas; > > I live in Adelaide, so I have to go 600 km East or 3000 km West or 3000 km > > North to find another population centre with more than 50,000 people; > > the nearest interstate Capital city is 980 km away. > > Melbourne's 750 km. > > > Our cities are also a hell of a lot more widely laid-out than yours: > > Adelaide, with a pop. of 1.1 million, has the same surface area as > > New York City. > > I think you should take a look at Salt Lake City (where Wes lives) > before making that sort of claim. SLC is a lot wider than Adelaide. And that's the POPULATED part of Utah. The Great Basin desert which covers half of Utah and most of Nevada, is nearly Australian in it's lack of people, and for the same reason: no water. > > So let's accept that distances in the US are pissant little commuter > > hops, shall we? :-) > > Depends on the part of the USA. "I'm from Texas, I'd drive a hundred miles to eat a BAD hamburger." "Hell, I'm from Nevada, I drive a hundred miles to pick my mail." Circumnavigate Area 51-ing you what, -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 17:35:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A33F37B6B6 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:35:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA92987 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:35:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from chimp.simianscience.com (ospf-mdt.sentex.net [205.211.164.81]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA26070 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:35:32 -0500 (EST) From: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT clusters running MS SQL Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 01:34:06 GMT Message-ID: <38c061e1.786256907@mail.sentex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 Mar 2000 13:12:38 -0500, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: >I found some details at TPC's site. yes, the hardware was very >different, but NT and MS SQL Server look like real contenders... >Is there anything we can do to get BSD on this list? >Or is this one of those 'you have to pay to play' games? The fact that MSSQL showed great speeds in a network cluster might mean piss all if you want to build a high availability web server or pop3 server. In terms of those studies, always look to see who commissioned it. Generally, those who pay get what they want. It sounds awful cynical, but my wife having escaped the seedy world of Market research can attest to the fact that there is always pressure to give the answers the clients want to the point where you sometimes are pushed to the point where its an outright lie. I am not saying that this is always the case, or that all firms are like this... But, I am sure SUN can come forth with its own studies that show how its clustering system with Oracle can blow the socks off NT-- especially if the use some of their higher end hardware. In the end, it really doesnt necessarily mean much. Evaluate the technology yourself. See what makes sense for the problem at hand. Maybe its NT. Maybe LINUX, maybe FreeBSD. Remember that the initial cost of hardware and software (the OS) is only one componenet. If your people know jack about UNIX and are all NT experts, can you justify the cost of retraining them to bring them up to speed (or vice versa) ? Maybe, maybe not. Because one app can run 10% faster on NT, does that mean you should choose NT ? What if you can save 30% on administration because the equivalant app on UNIX is more manageable? Scalable ? Stable ? I think hotmail.com which is owned by MS made a good choice for their network. http://www.netcraft.com/whats/?host=www.hotmail.com ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) Sentex Communications Corp, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 18:14:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E7937B6E8; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:14:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00752; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38C0718C.8D30B673@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:14:36 -0800 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Newton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Newton wrote: > > Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go > > DOWN, not UP. > > I'm paying A$0.83c/L right now, which is roughly A$3.73/gal, which is > roughly US$2.76. That means the US price of petroleum can rise by almost > 100% and people still still drive the kind of distances which usually > constitute international travel. Ug, when I lived in Melbourne ( 92-94 ) I think the price was around A$0.55/L. Of course I think the price back in the states was still around US$0.99/g at the time. Is gas conversion still a big thing? -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 18:18:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A5F37B726; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:18:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00784; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:18:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38C07263.DF09D522@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:18:11 -0800 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Greg Lehey , Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <20000304103901.A24172@freebie.lemis.com> <38C06697.EA03B156@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > > Depends on the part of the USA. > > "I'm from Texas, I'd drive a hundred miles to eat a BAD hamburger." I remember visiting cousins in Texas when I was kid. One day they thought it would be fun to go out for pizza. The nearest pizza place, Oaklahoma, about a 5 hour drive. > > "Hell, I'm from Nevada, I drive a hundred miles to pick my mail." > > Circumnavigate Area 51-ing you what, -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 18:19:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 73E2F37B6FF for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:18:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 3690 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2000 02:18:19 -0000 Received: from userbh54.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.143.19) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2000 02:18:19 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA00573; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:18:34 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:18:34 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Paul Griffith Cc: Brian Beattie , chat@freebsd.org, "Koster, K.J." Subject: Re: Great Worldwide Gas Out Message-ID: <20000304021834.A340@marder-1> References: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000303183214.A327@marder-1> <38C0274A.D8E54239@interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38C0274A.D8E54239@interlog.com>; from paulg@interlog.com on Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:57:46PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:57:46PM -0500, Paul Griffith wrote: > You mean after the Gulf War, we still have to deal with this sh*t. Hell > might as well let Iraq start pumping oil again. > Huh? > > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 10:13:20AM -0800, Brian Beattie wrote: > > > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > > "Koster, K.J." wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Oh, those Americans. :-) > > > > > > > > > > Let's see: $1 per gallon in the US. $1.2 per litre in the Netherlands, times > > > > > 4.5 (or thereabouts) is $5.4 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > > > > > > > > It's 4.54 litres per *imperial* gallon, a US gallon is smaller (20% > > smaller) coz their pints are smaller (16 fluid oz. against 20). So, > > that's 3.63 litres per US gallon, or US$4.36 per gallon in the Netherlands. > > > > > > > Everyone in the Netherlands drives cars; everyone thinks gas is expensive. > > > > > This means that the gas prices in the US can go up 440% and people will > > > > > still drive cars and buy gas (and complain about gas prices, of course). > > > > > > > > First, this off-topic for -hackers, so I've directed replies to -chat > > > > if you want to continue. > > > > > > > > Second, I know people that commute distances that would cross your > > > > country. I suspect the average American uses a lot more gas than the > > > > average Nederlander. > > > > > > > > Third, our gas prices here are held down by all sorts of weird > > > > government intervention, bizarre market shenanigans, and a public that > > > > doesn't understand that the price of gasoline has risen only 4x in the > > > > same period that the price of cars has risen 10x. That's certainly > > > > NOT a "natural occurence". > > > > > > > > Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go > > > > DOWN, not UP. > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, the idea that the last "Great Gas-out" and any effect on prices, > > > is, ... amusing ... at best. "Those Americans" may be right for different > > > reasons. > > > > > > > -- > > > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > > > > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > Brian Beattie | The only problem with > > > beattie@aracnet.com | winning the rat race ... > > > www.aracnet.com/~beattie | in the end you're still a rat > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > -- > > Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > > Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > > BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? > > -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 > > ________________________________________________________________ > > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -Poster at LinuxWorld 2000 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 21:14:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FD337B6F5; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:14:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA25428; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:44:19 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:44:19 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Joseph Scott Cc: Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000304154419.C24172@freebie.lemis.com> References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38C0718C.8D30B673@owp.csus.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <38C0718C.8D30B673@owp.csus.edu> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [*finally* removed -hackers] On Friday, 3 March 2000 at 18:14:36 -0800, Joseph Scott wrote: > > Mark Newton wrote: >>> Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go >>> DOWN, not UP. >> >> I'm paying A$0.83c/L right now, which is roughly A$3.73/gal, which is >> roughly US$2.76. That means the US price of petroleum can rise by almost >> 100% and people still still drive the kind of distances which usually >> constitute international travel. > > Ug, when I lived in Melbourne ( 92-94 ) I think the price was around > A$0.55/L. Of course I think the price back in the states was still > around US$0.99/g at the time. > > Is gas conversion still a big thing? Yes, but becoming less so at the moment. Petrol has gone up from about $0.70 to $0.85, and gas has gone up from $0.20 to $0.40. Ouch. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 21:16: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095BF37B514; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:15:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA25454; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:45:40 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:45:40 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000304154540.D24172@freebie.lemis.com> References: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <20000304103901.A24172@freebie.lemis.com> <38C06697.EA03B156@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <38C06697.EA03B156@softweyr.com> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 3 March 2000 at 18:27:51 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Saturday, 4 March 2000 at 10:12:13 +1030, Mark Newton wrote: >>> On Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 09:56:08AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >>> >>>> "Koster, K.J." wrote: >>> So let's accept that distances in the US are pissant little commuter >>> hops, shall we? :-) >> >> Depends on the part of the USA. > > "I'm from Texas, I'd drive a hundred miles to eat a BAD hamburger." Yup, the Texans are like that. They probably have good hamburgers just round the corner. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 22:16:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFFB637B5E0; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA44085; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:16:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA32159; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:16:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003040616.XAA32159@harmony.village.org> To: "Akinori -Aki- MUSHA" Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/contrib chapter.sgml Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, shin@nd.net.fujitsu.co.jp, dcs@newsguy.com, green@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Mar 2000 04:12:10 +0900." <86putbc1h1.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> References: <86putbc1h1.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> <38BE7B3D.AF373040@newsguy.com> <200002280315.TAA81734@freefall.freebsd.org> <200003021809.LAA16928@harmony.village.org> <20000303162635G.shin@nd.net.fujitsu.co.jp> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 23:16:35 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you very much. This is helpful. In message <86putbc1h1.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> "Akinori -Aki- MUSHA" writes: : - of *BSD users are mysteriously, definitely male. (>99%) : e.g. ;-) Some *BSD Japanese users have a Male or Female symbol in their signature. I've still not figured out how to generate the vast variety of symbols that I see in Japanese postings with wnn/kanna yet. This weekend may be a good time to try to learn. :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 3 23:32:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oracle.dsuper.net (oracle.dsuper.net [205.205.255.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5D137B5EB for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 23:32:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmilekic@dsuper.net) Received: from oracle.dsuper.net (oracle.dsuper.net [205.205.255.1]) by oracle.dsuper.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01203; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:31:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:31:53 -0500 (EST) From: Bosko Milekic To: Joseph Scott Cc: Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <38C0718C.8D30B673@owp.csus.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Joseph Scott wrote: > >Mark Newton wrote: >> > Fourth, I'm paying $1.48/gal right now, and I want the price to go >> > DOWN, not UP. >> >> I'm paying A$0.83c/L right now, which is roughly A$3.73/gal, which is >> roughly US$2.76. That means the US price of petroleum can rise by almost >> 100% and people still still drive the kind of distances which usually >> constitute international travel. > > Ug, when I lived in Melbourne ( 92-94 ) I think the price was around >A$0.55/L. Of course I think the price back in the states was still >around US$0.99/g at the time. > > Is gas conversion still a big thing? > >-- > >Joseph Scott >joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu >Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento Gentlemen, ladies; Please stop sending this [crap] to freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, I'm sure that nobody on that list wants to see it there and if they do, they should be reading reading Slashdot or subscribed to chat@. If you click on "CC:" in your mail client, you will probably see that "freebsd-hackers" is still there, you may want to click on it, and press the [del] button on your keyboard a few times, so that it disappears. MAGIC! .......................................................................... Bosko Milekic * bmilekic@dsuper.net * http://pages.infinit.net/bmilekic/ Montreal, Quebec, Canada. * Technokratis: http://www.technokratis.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 9:22:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D57A37B838; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22524; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:22:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 09:20:09 -0700 To: Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: "Koster, K.J." , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" , Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> References: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:42 PM 3/3/2000 , Mark Newton wrote: >Our prices are held *up* by the fact that over 50% of them constitute >State and Federal taxes. Same in the US and Europe. Driving is a sin that must be taxed, y'know. This week, I traveled from Wyoming to California and discovered that gas prices were 25% higher in the Golden State than in the Cowboy State. Why? Because Californians "tax" themselves by requiring that everyone buy fuel with high concentrations of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. MTBE was supposed to reduce pollution, but in fact is a worse pollutant than oxides of nitrogen ever were. However, since only California refineries make gas with a high enough concentration of MTBE, Californians are locked into buying from these few sources and the price goes up. WAY up. Los Angeles will have $2.50 gas this summer. It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big cartels, big government, and politics. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 9:39:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E723D37B823; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:39:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from dbsys (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA15002; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:41:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 12:33:51 -0500 To: Brett Glass , Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Dennis Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: "Koster, K.J." , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" , Wes Peters In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> References: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >This week, I traveled from Wyoming to California and discovered that >gas prices were 25% higher in the Golden State than in the Cowboy >State. Why? Because Californians "tax" themselves by requiring that >everyone buy fuel with high concentrations of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. >MTBE was supposed to reduce pollution, but in fact is a worse pollutant >than oxides of nitrogen ever were. However, since only California >refineries make gas with a high enough concentration of MTBE, Californians >are locked into buying from these few sources and the price goes up. >WAY up. Los Angeles will have $2.50 gas this summer. > >It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't >driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big >cartels, big government, and politics. I think you've been reading too much of that commie literature they have out there on the West Coast. Gas taxes are designed to pay for roads and highways, and you have lots more infrastructure in LA than you do in Wyoming. The more you drive, the more you pay. Makes sense to me. As for clean air...Im all for it. You might disagree with specific things being done, but if nothing were done 20 years ago you wouldnt be able to breath in LA at all. Same here in NY. As a staunch Republican I usually disagree with big tax government programs..but the gas tax is very reasonable in this country. Now if we could just do something about those union guys making 100K to put up signs.......does it really take 6 men to fill a pothole? JMO Dennis Emerging Technologies, Inc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- http://www.etinc.com ISA and PCI T1/T3/V35/HSSI Cards for FreeBSD and LINUX Multiport T1 and HSSI/T3 UNIX-based Routers Bandwidth Management Standalone Systems Bandwidth Management software for LINUX and FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 9:52:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.79.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A0437B806 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 09:52:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.79.115]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08672; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:52:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09600; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:52:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:52:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200003041752.KAA09600@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Dennis Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> References: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Removed all but chat and the two posters ] > >This week, I traveled from Wyoming to California and discovered that > >gas prices were 25% higher in the Golden State than in the Cowboy > >State. Why? Because Californians "tax" themselves by requiring that > >everyone buy fuel with high concentrations of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. > >MTBE was supposed to reduce pollution, but in fact is a worse pollutant > >than oxides of nitrogen ever were. However, since only California > >refineries make gas with a high enough concentration of MTBE, Californians > >are locked into buying from these few sources and the price goes up. > >WAY up. Los Angeles will have $2.50 gas this summer. > > > >It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't > >driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big > >cartels, big government, and politics. > > I think you've been reading too much of that commie literature they have > out there on the West Coast. Gas taxes are designed to pay for roads and > highways, and you have lots more infrastructure in LA than you do in > Wyoming. The more you drive, the more you pay. Makes sense to me. This sounds good, except for the fact that Wyoming has the fewest people/capita of all states, and has more roads miles/person that all of CA. Therefore, their gas tax for roads is higher than that in CA. (Montana's gas tax is similar, hence my familiarity with it.) The reason gas is so expensive is CA is because a couple of refineries blew up last year, and due to the monopolies shared by the gas companies, there was no-one lef to take up the 'demand' when they quit producing. Demand stayed the same, production was reduced, price goes up. Simple economics.. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 10:22: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9416537B80F; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:21:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA48986; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:26:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:26:11 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brett Glass Cc: Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 09:20:09AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 09:20:09AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:42 PM 3/3/2000 , Mark Newton wrote: > > >Our prices are held *up* by the fact that over 50% of them constitute > >State and Federal taxes. > > Same in the US and Europe. Driving is a sin that must be taxed, y'know. Driving is an activity that incurrs a cost on society, building roads, regular maintainance, salter, snow plows, maintainace to fix the damage the snow plows did, etc. > This week, I traveled from Wyoming to California and discovered that > gas prices were 25% higher in the Golden State than in the Cowboy > State. Why? Because Californians "tax" themselves by requiring that > everyone buy fuel with high concentrations of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. > MTBE was supposed to reduce pollution, but in fact is a worse pollutant > than oxides of nitrogen ever were. However, since only California > refineries make gas with a high enough concentration of MTBE, Californians > are locked into buying from these few sources and the price goes up. > WAY up. Los Angeles will have $2.50 gas this summer. Yet the number of f*cking SUVs and other gas-guzzling vehicles in the region will continue to rise as will the miles driven per vehicle. > It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't > driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big > cartels, big government, and politics. Just like everything else. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 13:44:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA7437B89B for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:44:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24243; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 14:44:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000304134006.041039d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:43:52 -0700 To: cjclark@home.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 AM 3/4/2000 , Crist J. Clark wrote: > > Same in the US and Europe. Driving is a sin that must be taxed, y'know. > >Driving is an activity that incurrs a cost on society, building roads, >regular maintainance, salter, snow plows, maintainace to fix the >damage the snow plows did, etc. It does cost money to maintain the infrastructure. But the taxes are far above that. Why? Because, during the 70's, they became "sin" taxes. > > This week, I traveled from Wyoming to California and discovered that > > gas prices were 25% higher in the Golden State than in the Cowboy > > State. Why? Because Californians "tax" themselves by requiring that > > everyone buy fuel with high concentrations of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. > > MTBE was supposed to reduce pollution, but in fact is a worse pollutant > > than oxides of nitrogen ever were. However, since only California > > refineries make gas with a high enough concentration of MTBE, Californians > > are locked into buying from these few sources and the price goes up. > > WAY up. Los Angeles will have $2.50 gas this summer. > >Yet the number of f*cking SUVs and other gas-guzzling vehicles in the >region will continue to rise as will the miles driven per vehicle. We'll see. Hopefully, the SUVs will at least stop getting larger. The new Ford Expansion -- or is it the Explosion? -- won't fit in most garages. I've heard that Cadillac is coming out with one called the Manifest Destiny. It'll take up the whole block. > > It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't > > driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big > > cartels, big government, and politics. > >Just like everything else. All too true. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 13:44:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EA737BD7C for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:44:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24239; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 14:44:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000304133643.0417e100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:39:32 -0700 To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), Dennis From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003041752.KAA09600@nomad.yogotech.com> References: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:52 AM 3/4/2000 , Nate Williams wrote: > > I think you've been reading too much of that commie literature they have > > out there on the West Coast. Gas taxes are designed to pay for roads and > > highways, and you have lots more infrastructure in LA than you do in > > Wyoming. The more you drive, the more you pay. Makes sense to me. > >This sounds good, except for the fact that Wyoming has the fewest >people/capita of all states, and has more roads miles/person that all of >CA. Therefore, their gas tax for roads is higher than that in CA. >(Montana's gas tax is similar, hence my familiarity with it.) That's correct, Nate. Wyoming is 300 by 400 miles and has only half a million people. Lowest population density of the 48 contiguous states and the smallest TOTAL population of all of them. And yet our taxes are earmarked and do pay for our roads. >The reason gas is so expensive is CA is because a couple of refineries >blew up last year, and due to the monopolies shared by the gas >companies, there was no-one lef to take up the 'demand' when they quit >producing. > >Demand stayed the same, production was reduced, price goes up. Simple >economics.. Exactly. And the monopoly is government-granted because it mandated the special gas. California also has special and arbitrary requirements for milk which keep out-of-state vendors out and raise the price. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 13:58:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp (ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp [210.234.123.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AAE37B8D2 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:58:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from knu@idaemons.org) Received: from daemon.local.idaemons.org (pc343042.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp [203.140.143.42]) by ms.tokyo.jcom.ne.jp (8.9.1/3.7W 06/01/99) with ESMTP id GAA10393 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 06:58:16 +0900 (JST) Received: by daemon.local.idaemons.org (8.9.3/3.7W) id GAA46905; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 06:57:44 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 06:57:43 +0900 Message-ID: <86em9qz9d4.wl@archon.local.idaemons.org> From: "Akinori -Aki- MUSHA" Subject: Re: cvs commit: doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/contrib chapter.sgml To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: In your message of "Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:25:54 +0100 (CET)" <200003031925.UAA10549@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> References: <89p311$30gi$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> <200003031925.UAA10549@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.2.18 (Please Forgive Me) EMIKO/1.13.11 (Euglena viridis) FLIM/1.13.2 (Kasanui) APEL/10.1 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 8) (Bryce Canyon) (i386--freebsd) Organization: Associated I. Daemons MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by EMIKO 1.13.11 - "Euglena viridis") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:25:54 +0100 (CET), Oliver Fromme wrote: > Akinori -Aki- MUSHA wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > > Although it's difficult to guess male or female by a Japanese name > > written in alphabets, I'd show some simple rules... (Sort of the first > > match wins principle applies) > > Thankyou very much, that's a very helpful set of rules. > > On a related isue, I'm sometimes confused as to what is the > "first name" and what is the "last name" (surname). It seems > that there is a convention that Japanese surnames are written > in all uppercase letters -- is that right? > > Regards > Oliver Exactly. I think most Japanese people are likely to obediently follow the rules of western languages. Now, imagine a man whose family name is YAMADA and the given name is Taro. (kind of "Joe Ordinary" in Japanese) There can be several styles for him to put on his name, as shown below: Taro Yamada Taro YAMADA Yamada, Taro YAMADA Taro Except an upcase'd name explicitly indicates that it's a family name, you can just read it in western way. I belive both Chinese and Korean people have their own rules, but at least Japanese people tend to show their adaptability. P.S. Another rule! Names that end with /ro/ (roh) are 99% of male. Because "-ro" means "male" as well as "-o" does. On the other hand, "-ko" does not mean "female" but "child". Maybe a baby girl was traditionally taken as pretty and lovable being whose father might not want to give his daughter in marriage and want her to always be a child, while a baby boy was treated as a son and heir who would succeed his father who would always want to make a man of his son as soon as possible. -- / /__ __ / ) ) ) ) / Akinori -Aki- MUSHA aka / (_ / ( (__( "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 16: 2:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhop1.nyroc.rr.com (mailhop1-0.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B4737B906 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:02:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reichman@twcny.rr.com) Received: from mailout1.nyroc.rr.com ([24.92.226.146]) by mailhop1.nyroc.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:59:23 -0500 Received: from mail1.twcny.rr.com ([24.92.226.139]) by mailout1.nyroc.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:58:19 -0500 Received: from twcny.rr.com ([24.24.27.110]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-53939U80000L80000S0V35) with ESMTP id com; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:58:18 -0500 Message-ID: <38C1A53C.B58CF701@twcny.rr.com> Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 19:07:24 -0500 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pictures of the artist-previously-known-as-Chuck ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Have you sent these to www.daemonews.org. They may add a link to these for folks to see. The Obi Chuck is the best. "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > (Posted & mailed according to Reply-To) > > Pedro F. Giffuni wrote in list.freebsd-chat: > > > [...] > > > Anyone know of a good source > > > of Chuck related pictures? (Since I doubt .3ds or .dxf stuff exist, .gif > > > or . tga files are OK). > > > > There's some stuff at http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/ > > If you're looking at very high-resolution images, try this one: > > http://www.fromme.com/t-shirt/fbsd-shirt-large.jpg > > (It's an image that I scanned for making T-shirts.) > > http://www.svaha.net/daemon/ > > -- > | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | > | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | > | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 16:36:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D55C37B91E for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:36:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from dallas ([12.73.243.110]) by mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.31a 201-229-119-114) with ESMTP id <20000305003626.DUF17170.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@dallas>; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:36:26 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000304173923.00a271f0@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 17:42:20 -0500 To: Mark Newton From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> References: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:42 PM 3/3/00 , you wrote: >Bah. In Western Australia there's a sheep station called "Little Texas" >which just happens to have a land area larger than the state of Texas; >I live in Adelaide, so I have to go 600 km East or 3000 km West or 3000 km >North to find another population centre with more than 50,000 people; >the nearest interstate Capital city is 980 km away. Our cities are also >a hell of a lot more widely laid-out than yours: Adelaide, with a pop. >of 1.1 million, has the same surface area as New York City. >So let's accept that distances in the US are pissant little commuter hops, >shall we? :-) I'm sure that commuting across NYC still takes far more gas and time and requires a higher toll on a person's automobile and stress level than commuting across Adelaide. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 16:40:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DCB937B8AB for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:40:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Received: from workstation.etinc.com (port58.netsvr1.cst.vastnet.net [207.252.73.58]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA15899; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:42:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200003050042.TAA15899@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@mail.etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 08:11:09 -0500 To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) From: Dennis Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003041752.KAA09600@nomad.yogotech.com> References: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate W. wrote... >> I think you've been reading too much of that commie literature they have >> out there on the West Coast. Gas taxes are designed to pay for roads and >> highways, and you have lots more infrastructure in LA than you do in >> Wyoming. The more you drive, the more you pay. Makes sense to me. > >This sounds good, except for the fact that Wyoming has the fewest >people/capita of all states, and has more roads miles/person that all of >CA. Therefore, their gas tax for roads is higher than that in CA. >(Montana's gas tax is similar, hence my familiarity with it.) > >The reason gas is so expensive is CA is because a couple of refineries >blew up last year, and due to the monopolies shared by the gas >companies, there was no-one lef to take up the 'demand' when they quit >producing. > >Demand stayed the same, production was reduced, price goes up. Simple >economics.. It also goes up sometimes because the State decides its a good way to raise some revenues. I write off gas so its not so bad as long as it helps keep income taxes down :-) Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 17: 8:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16D337B8D4 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 17:08:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (dialup2-138.csus.edu [130.86.24.138]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09353; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 17:08:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <38C1B3C1.7373984A@owp.csus.edu> Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 17:09:21 -0800 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Fisher Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: any news on w2k in the world? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Fisher wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > Back to your question though. Admin : windows needs good scripting > > ability, NT 4 definitely didn't have it. Does 2000? Don't know. > > Case in point : try adding 500 windows accounts, point and click all > > over. In the unix world you'd just script the creation go to town. > > Administrating NT well requires clue, just like administering a UN*X > system. I've seen an adduser script that a non-MCSE'd NT consultant > wrote for doing the addition of such volumes of accounts. This was > for NT4 and existed prior to summer 1998, so it isn't something that > one of the more recent service packs added. > I suppose there is a cultural difference. The feeling in NT is that all/most things should/must be done through the gui tools. In the BSD/Unix world that just simply is not the case, often servers don't have any gui tools on them at all. After I read some of the perl modules for win32/NT I figured this was the best thing that ever happened to NT. If I was MS I'd do what ever it took to buy ActiveState. Perl on NT brings the scripting features it needs so badly. This would also help BSD/Unix people who have to deal with NT as they will likely have at least some basic feel for perl or some sort of scripting. There are still issues of course, but it's a big step in the right direction. Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 17: 9:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 1499137B932; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 17:09:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: paulg@interlog.com Cc: mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org, beattie@aracnet.com, chat@freebsd.org, K.J.Koster@kpn.com In-reply-to: <38C0274A.D8E54239@interlog.com> (message from Paul Griffith on Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:57:46 -0500) Subject: Re: Great Worldwide Gas Out Message-Id: <20000305010922.1499137B932@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 17:09:22 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You mean after the Gulf War, we still have to deal with this sh*t. Hell > might as well let Iraq start pumping oil again. > ever since the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973-74. Many of the oil companies has expected it to happen earlier...to them it was a wonder that it took so long the the Arabs started an Embargo. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 19: 7:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (mta1.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9165337B91F; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:07:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org ([207.214.149.45]) by mta1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FQX00JLEHZ623@mta1.snfc21.pbi.net>; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0352791588; Sat, 04 Mar 2000 19:06:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 19:06:36 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-reply-to: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> To: Dennis Cc: Brett Glass , Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , Wes Peters Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Mar 2000, Dennis wrote: > As for clean air...Im all for it. You might disagree with specific > things being done, but if nothing were done 20 years ago you wouldnt > be able to breath in LA at all. Same here in NY. Yes, but look at the fact that for a fuel injected car with an oxygen sensor (i.e. Lambada-Sond for many European cars), oxygenated fuel just means that more fuel is burnt, creating more pollution. Sure the exhaust is marginally cleaner, but there's also going to be more of the "cleaner" exhaust. In the past twenty years, what has reduced the smog and other pollution the most has been the equipment added to cars themselves (egr equipment, catalytic converters, etc), and well the obviously beneficial elimination of lead in our fuel supply. MTBE causes more harm than good. Sure the air in metropolitan areas (Bay Area, LA, NY) is better than it was 20 or 30 years ago, but with the creeping SUVitis, it's starting to get worse. Sure the exhaust is cleaner, but there's so much more of it that it is still overwhelming the environment. > As a staunch Republican I usually disagree with big tax government > programs..but the gas tax is very reasonable in this country. Now if we > could just do something about those union guys making 100K to put up > signs.......does it really take 6 men to fill a pothole? Sure, the gasoline tax isn't really all that bad (especially compared to what it is in other countries). The real problem lies with the oil refineries managing to make record profits, still price gouge us, and manage to endanger the lives of nearby residents and employees. Tosco manged to char broil four of its employees not too long ago, mainly because of managerial neglence. Also, when comparing the gasoline prices of America to those of other countries, consider that the $1.55/gal gas (well the "cheap stuff") would most likely not be doing too much good for a small high output engine that requires high octane. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 19:58:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4AA37B95C for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:58:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04960; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 20:57:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38C1DB2E.C2BF7F66@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 20:57:34 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Cc: Brett Glass , Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out References: <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dennis wrote: > > >This week, I traveled from Wyoming to California and discovered that > >gas prices were 25% higher in the Golden State than in the Cowboy > >State. Why? Because Californians "tax" themselves by requiring that > >everyone buy fuel with high concentrations of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. > >MTBE was supposed to reduce pollution, but in fact is a worse pollutant > >than oxides of nitrogen ever were. However, since only California > >refineries make gas with a high enough concentration of MTBE, Californians > >are locked into buying from these few sources and the price goes up. > >WAY up. Los Angeles will have $2.50 gas this summer. > > > >It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't > >driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big > >cartels, big government, and politics. > > I think you've been reading too much of that commie literature they have > out there on the West Coast. Gas taxes are designed to pay for roads and > highways, and you have lots more infrastructure in LA than you do in > Wyoming. The more you drive, the more you pay. Makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is that Los Angeles has a LOT less highway per person than Wyoming. You've obviously never been to Wyoming. It's a big state with a population at 475,000 and falling. > As for clean air...Im all for it. You might disagree with specific things > being done, but if nothing were done 20 years ago you wouldnt be able to > breath in LA at all. Same here in NY. > > As a staunch Republican I usually disagree with big tax government > programs..but the gas tax is very reasonable in this country. Now if we > could just do something about those union guys making 100K to put up > signs.......does it really take 6 men to fill a pothole? That's just peeing into the wind compared to the amount of damage done to the highways by big trucks. Ending the subsidies for the trucking industry, in the form of making the people of states like Wyoming pay for highways when the trucks don't even stop in Wyoming would go a long ways towards putting the frieght back on trains where it can be moved with less fuel and less human lives lost. Now would the rest of you idiots PLEASE trim -hackers from this thread? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 21:19:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A597D37B96D; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 21:19:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19026; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:19:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:19:14 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Dennis , Brett Glass , Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Mar 2000, Alex Zepeda wrote: > MTBE causes more harm than good. Sure the air in metropolitan areas > (Bay Area, LA, NY) is better than it was 20 or 30 years ago, but with > the creeping SUVitis, it's starting to get worse. Sure the exhaust is > cleaner, but there's so much more of it that it is still overwhelming > the environment. I wouldn't have a problem with SUVs if they were required to pass emissions and safety requirements other passenger vehicles are. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 23:36: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stage1.thirdage.com (stage1.thirdage.com [4.18.197.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153E037B8C2; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jal@stage1.thirdage.com) Received: (from jal@localhost) by stage1.thirdage.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA15340; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:35:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:35:00 -0800 From: "Jamie A. Lawrence" To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Brett Glass , Mark Newton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Koster, K.J." , "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" , Wes Peters Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Message-ID: <20000304233500.A15262@thirdage.com> References: <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313909@l04.research.kpn.com> <38BFEEA8.1A465CFC@softweyr.com> <20000304101212.A384@internode.com.au> <4.2.2.20000304091423.040b5590@localhost> <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <20000304132611.B48777@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>; from Crist J. Clark on Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:26:11PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ++ 04/03/00 13:26 -0500 - Crist J. Clark: > Driving is an activity that incurrs a cost on society, building roads, > regular maintainance, salter, snow plows, maintainace to fix the > damage the snow plows did, etc. A cost that is not fully realized in the US. > > This week, I traveled from Wyoming to California and discovered that > > gas prices were 25% higher in the Golden State than in the Cowboy > > State. Why? Because Californians "tax" themselves by requiring that > > everyone buy fuel with high concentrations of MTBE, an oxygenating agent. > > MTBE was supposed to reduce pollution, but in fact is a worse pollutant > > than oxides of nitrogen ever were. However, since only California > > refineries make gas with a high enough concentration of MTBE, Californians > > are locked into buying from these few sources and the price goes up. > > WAY up. Los Angeles will have $2.50 gas this summer. > > Yet the number of f*cking SUVs and other gas-guzzling vehicles in the > region will continue to rise as will the miles driven per vehicle. Sure, personal assult vehicles consume more than they pay for. If they were taxed at a sane rate, far fewer people would drive them. This from a serious anarchist who wants to see private roads everywhere. If everyone payed a private entity to get to work, we'd see a saner commute schedule. It would be a lot different. Makes you ("you" meaning people in CA, US) wonder, I hope. I live here. > > It's the same the whole world over. Energy policies and fuel costs aren't > > driven by markets or even common sense. They are controlled by big > > cartels, big government, and politics. > > Just like everything else. The interesting part is that things are about to become a lot different. The same cartels know that, and they may end up on top, but there is a radical change in personal transport coming. Things are becoming interesting. If people choose (if alternative projects advertise well), we'll see neat things happen. -j To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 23:53:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (mta4.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0046437B96F for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:53:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org ([207.214.149.22]) by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FQX00KMDUTRNR@mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDBA91588; Sat, 04 Mar 2000 23:44:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 23:44:15 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out In-reply-to: To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Sat, 4 Mar 2000, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > MTBE causes more harm than good. Sure the air in metropolitan areas > > (Bay Area, LA, NY) is better than it was 20 or 30 years ago, but with > > the creeping SUVitis, it's starting to get worse. Sure the exhaust is > > cleaner, but there's so much more of it that it is still overwhelming > > the environment. > > I wouldn't have a problem with SUVs if they were required to pass > emissions and safety requirements other passenger vehicles are. Sure, but there's no way the monster SUVs couldn't cause danger to other non monster SUVs. They're just bigger, and have got bigger blind spots, and will handle poorer, take longer to stop, etc. And again, sure, the mini-SUVs could probably do it, but well What's the point of an SUV if it isn't bigger than my mansion? - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 4 23:58:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.25.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7951C37B574 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de) Received: from fettesau.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (stuwopc5.stuwo.fh-wilhelmshaven.de [139.13.209.5]) by mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA12201; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 08:58:33 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.20000305083742.00a4af00@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> X-Sender: ohoyer@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 08:58:28 +0100 To: Alex Zepeda From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: Great American Gas Out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200003041741.MAA15002@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Yes, but look at the fact that for a fuel injected car with an oxygen >sensor (i.e. Lambada-Sond for many European cars), oxygenated fuel just >means that more fuel is burnt, creating more pollution. Sure the exhaust >is marginally cleaner, but there's also going to be more of the "cleaner" >exhaust. Hi! Well, every german car has to have a three-way-catalysator by now, otherwise the taxes charged will be three times as high... And as of the improvements in engine technology, they use sometimes half the fuel than of 10 or 15 years ago... A modern turbo diesel engine needs 6 litres per 100 km, and with nowadays diesel technology it really is able to burn clean... 1 gallon ~4 litres 1 mile~1,6 km > >In the past twenty years, what has reduced the smog and other pollution >the most has been the equipment added to cars themselves (egr equipment, >catalytic converters, etc), and well the obviously beneficial elimination >of lead in our fuel supply. FYI, the old VW beetle was able to also use unleaded. beginning with some engine series in the seventies. If you knew which engine rev you had, you could use unleaded with no harm to the engine... >Sure, the gasoline tax isn't really all that bad (especially compared to >what it is in other countries). The real problem lies with the oil >refineries managing to make record profits, still price gouge us, and >manage to endanger the lives of nearby residents and employees. Tosco >manged to char broil four of its employees not too long ago, mainly >because of managerial neglence. Yes, here in germany it makes up most of the price at all... 1 litre of diesel is 1,50 DM, normal unleaded is about 1,80DM, and super plus (the replacement for really old ones and highpower engines that would need lead and/or have a high compression) is sometimes a bit above 2 DM. 1 U$~2 DM The owner of a gas station makes a profit of about 0.04 DM per litre, so lots of gas stations turned into small supermarkets that have prolonged (sometimes 24h) opening times, as normal stores have to be closed by 20:00, saturdays 16:00. >Also, when comparing the gasoline prices of America to those of other >countries, consider that the $1.55/gal gas (well the "cheap stuff") >would most likely not be doing too much good for a small high output >engine that requires high octane. Yes, but those people driving those cars whether have money to afford their "hobby", as (at least european) high-performance cars are quite expensive to buy... And for very old cars-the government tries to force them off the streets, because newer ones are somewhat better for the environment, as they are using less fuel, thus polluting less, are in the long run cheaper for the people (they also want to go for some more busses and trains, but the people respective those companies offering transport services simply aren't up to that service yet) to reduce the number of cars, and are somewhat more secure, thus creating less cost for health-care/insurance due to less (fatal) accidents. Regards Olaf Hoyer -------- Olaf Hoyer www.nightfire.de mailto:Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de FreeBSD- Turning PC's into workstations ICQ:22838075 Liebe und Hass sind nicht blind, aber geblendet vom Feuer, dass sie selber mit sich tragen. (Nietzsche) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message