From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 20 11:30:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09896 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:30:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (assurance.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09841 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA26049 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:29:37 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma026045; Sun, 20 Sep 98 14:29:06 -0400 Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28857 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) id OAA07366; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809201829.OAA07366@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Palm III utilities? X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just bought a Palm III, and was wondering whether anyone using one of these connected to their FreeBSD boxes had any opinions about which utilities to use with it. I checked the ports available, and there seem to be a couple of possibilities: kpilot (do I need to run KDE for this?) pilot-link Any other suggestions/opinions also welcome. Thanks Viren -- Viren R. Shah "Creeping featurism is a disease, fatal if not treated promptly" -- Don Norman in _The Design of Everyday Things_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 20 14:45:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14037 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:45:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14000 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:45:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id XAA07872 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:45:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (VMailer, from userid 101) id 790901563; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:41:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:41:55 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Palm III utilities? Message-ID: <19980920234155.A10516@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199809201829.OAA07366@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.94.4i In-Reply-To: <199809201829.OAA07366@jabberwock.rstcorp.com>; from Viren R. Shah on Sun, Sep 20, 1998 at 02:29:04PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-BETA/ELF ctm#4660 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Viren R. Shah: > utilities to use with it. I checked the ports available, and there > seem to be a couple of possibilities: > > kpilot (do I need to run KDE for this?) No, you only need kde libraries. > pilot-link There is PilotManager, a Perl/Tk utility similar to kpilot, only better for the syncing phase. The Address Book editor is a good point for kpilot though. PilotManager uses pilot-link for the actual communication. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-BETA #0: Sat Sep 19 23:38:25 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 20 16:05:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00406 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:05:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00361 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.42]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA16410 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:07:29 +0500 Message-ID: <36058973.DF813C52@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:02:12 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: (PN) Prg: Quality Week/Europe '98 (QWE'98)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2E3AE061B293FA855DE0B44F" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2E3AE061B293FA855DE0B44F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------2E3AE061B293FA855DE0B44F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from daimi.aau.dk ([130.225.16.1]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA16228 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:22:06 +0500 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by daimi.aau.dk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19053; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:19:54 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:24:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Software Research Message-Id: <199809180524.WAA11077@netcom7.netcom.com> To: PetriNets@daimi.aau.dk Subject: (PN) Prg: Quality Week/Europe '98 (QWE'98) Sender: PetriNets-owner@daimi.aau.dk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Software Research Errors-To: PetriNets-owner@daimi.aau.dk The Technical Program for the 2nd International Software Quality Week Europe (QWE'98) has been announced! See the program at: QWE'98 includes over 60 speakers: Eleven full-day and half-day Tutorials, 5 Keynotes, a 3-day 4-track technical conference, and 2-day vendor exhibition. Hear about all kinds of software quality solutions, with emphasis on the EURO & Y2K efforts that are so critical right now. Learn about new technologies, hear case studies, and gain ideas about software process, about experience from the field, and about the newest software systems and tools. Exhibits and product demos from: Aonix, Blackstone & Cullen, Cyrano, E2S, McCabe, Mercury, OM Partners, SIMGroup, Software Research, IQUIP, GiTek, John Wiley & Sons, VAC Software, and more! Plus special fun events! Mark your calendars now: QWE'98: 9-13 November 1998, Brussels, Belgium EC +-----------------------------------+----------------------------------+ | Quality Week Europe '98 | Phone: [+1] (415) 957-1441 | | SR/Institute, Inc. | Toll Free: 1-800-942-SOFT | | 625 Third Street | FAX: [+1] (415) 957-0730 | | San Francisco, CA 94107-1997 USA | E-Mail: qw@soft.com | | | WWW: http://www.soft.com | +-----------------------------------+----------------------------------+ PS: You can click on "Send Brochure" at the conference WebSite to have your own copy of the Conference Brochure sent. PPS: If you don't have WWW access, send E-mail to "qw@soft.com" and we'll E-mail or post you the program and registration details ASAP! PPPS: Please forward this message to others in your organization whom you think would benefit from attending QWE'98. --- [[ Post messages and summary of replies: PetriNets@daimi.aau.dk ]] [[ The moderator's address: PetriNets-owner@daimi.aau.dk ]] [[ To (un)subscribe: PetriNets-request@daimi.aau.dk ]] [[ World Wide Web URL: http://www.daimi.aau.dk/PetriNets/pnl/ ]] --------------2E3AE061B293FA855DE0B44F-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 20 22:37:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01587 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01579; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:36:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA10385; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:06:24 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA09718; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:06:19 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980921150619.V8807@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:06:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promotional CDs and evil customs agencies. References: <25283.906018720@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <25283.906018720@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Sep 17, 1998 at 12:52:00AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 17 September 1998 at 0:52:00 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > [ I know that this is typically -chat material, but I'm not going to > reach the people who are actually involved by sending this to -chat ] Following up to -chat anyway. > I just thought I'd let folks know that I've reached a hard, but > irrevokable, decision with regard to sending promotional CDs overseas: > > I'm not going to do it anymore. > > (painful justification omitted) I'm a little puzzled. WC have been doing this sort of thing for years, and before Jack left he had more or less got the hang of it. How come they want you to be involved? The real issue isn't so much that there are problems getting freebies through customs, but that the problems are different for *every* country (and especially India). For the EU, I'd think that it would make most sense to export to Denmark (which IIRC is the easiest to penetrate) and then send them on from there. For other parts of the world, there isn't much tax cooperation. I note that the CDs I got came through with no problems, as apparently did the CDs sent to Norway with my invoice (I got the Norwegian invoice :-), so some countries don't cause too many problems. But the whole thing looks like a WC problem, not a FreeBSD problem. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 20 22:43:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02916 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:43:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02884 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:43:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21144; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:43:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promotional CDs and evil customs agencies. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:06:19 +0930." <19980921150619.V8807@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:43:16 -0700 Message-ID: <21140.906356596@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm a little puzzled. WC have been doing this sort of thing for > years, and before Jack left he had more or less got the hang of it. > How come they want you to be involved? Who else would do it? The shipping dept. is already overworked and every time one of these things bounce back from customs requiring a letter or some sort of intervention, it's not something they're interested in dealing with. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 20 22:43:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02963 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02918 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id WAA29124 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:42:58 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id WAA23502 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 05:42:58 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Network Computers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How does a network computer differ from an X terminal? Is NC just a catch phrase for X terminal? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 20 22:49:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04181 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04151 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:49:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA13086; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:48:32 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980921154827.32920@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:48:27 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Network Computers References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 05:42:58AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 05:42:58AM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > How does a network computer differ from an X terminal? Is NC just a catch > phrase for X terminal? Apparently network computers and NCs are two different things, and I used to get into trouble for forgetting which was which. These days it's OK, I can't remember what either is :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 00:32:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18987 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oddbjorn.bdc.no (oddbjorn.bdc.no [193.69.204.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18965 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oddbjorn@oddbjorn.bdc.no) Received: (from oddbjorn@localhost) by oddbjorn.bdc.no (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA19446; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:31:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from oddbjorn) From: Oddbjorn Steffensen Message-Id: <199809210731.JAA19446@oddbjorn.bdc.no> Subject: Re: Promotional CDs and evil customs agencies. In-Reply-To: <19980921150619.V8807@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Sep 21, 98 03:06:19 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:31:23 +0200 (CEST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > world, there isn't much tax cooperation. I note that the CDs I got > came through with no problems, as apparently did the CDs sent to > Norway with my invoice (I got the Norwegian invoice :-), so some > countries don't cause too many problems. But the whole thing looks > like a WC problem, not a FreeBSD problem. Speaking for the recipients of the Norwegian shipment you got the invoice for: The CDs got through to us, but the invoice stated both a media and an intellectual value that ended us costing us around $100 in taxes (for 88 sets). Even though the invoice says that the shipment have no commercial value, I think it was a mistake to place a bait like this for the customs people.. just a nominal media value should be enough. Even though we don't manage to persuade the customs people to drop this, I think it was money well spent.. > Greg -oddbjørn Freenix Norge _________________________________________________________________________ http://oddbjorn.bdc.no/ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 00:34:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19245 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:34:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA19188 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:33:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zL0T7-0000e9-00; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:33:09 +0200 Message-ID: <19980921093309.C2408@cityip.co.za> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:33:09 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: "Official" DPT support for Linux Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seeing as "How do I implement RAID on FreeBSD?" seems to be a very FAQ on -questions, I thought the following might be interesting. Forwarded without permission from the linux-eata mailing list... ----- Forwarded message from David Stone ----- > Last week I exchanged email with the VP Sales at DPT, > Johnny Cardosi, asking about better Linux support. > With his permission, here is his response: > > > We are planning on assuming direct support of Linux in the "relative" near > term. Currently, we have an agreement with someone to create a Linux > driver for our Gen V controllers that will be introduced in late October. > They will then turn it over to us for continued support and enhancements. > We should be able to provide a stable and complete Linux solution in the Q1 > time frame. However, there is currently no hard commitment to do so within > that time frame at this time. We recognize the increased need for "full" > Linux support and we will definitly have it... it's really just a question > of when at this moment. > Sorry I cant be any more certain about dates, but we are introducing > several new products over the next few months and at this time they are our > focus. We will make an email announcement when Linux support changes. > Please visit our web site and sign up for "auto notify" in the var area to > receive this information and other press and tech news in the future. > > Thanks for your business and support > > Johnny Cardosi > VP Sales ----- End forwarded message ----- -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 01:15:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24543 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:15:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA24535 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id BAA12891 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:14:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Berkeley California Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Something I found: http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA004959/song -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 01:16:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24684 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:16:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles236.castles.com [208.214.165.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA24665 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:16:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA21618; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:21:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809210821.BAA21618@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Network Computers In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 05:42:58 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:21:18 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How does a network computer differ from an X terminal? Is NC just a catch > phrase for X terminal? An X terminal is a local display for the X Window System. NC is a marketting term which is generally applied to "thin fat clients", ie. a client system with the ability to offload some amount of the application processing from the server to the NC. The amount of offloading depends on whose NC definition you buy. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 04:08:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA18071 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA18065 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:08:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA14413 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:07:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA15225; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:07:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980921130729.08080@follo.net> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:07:29 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Official" DPT support for Linux References: <19980921093309.C2408@cityip.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980921093309.C2408@cityip.co.za>; from Johann Visagie on Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 09:33:09AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 09:33:09AM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > > Seeing as "How do I implement RAID on FreeBSD?" seems to be a very FAQ on > -questions, I thought the following might be interesting. Forwarded without > permission from the linux-eata mailing list... The relevant FreeBSD driver will also be available, I believe. They've just been more happy with the FreeBSD driver than the Linux driver before... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 05:21:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26244 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 05:21:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rochefort.ns.easynet.net (rochefort.ns.easynet.net [193.131.248.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26207 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 05:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from papaya.mail.easynet.net (papaya.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.40]) by rochefort.ns.easynet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13321 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:26:04 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 27111 invoked from network); 21 Sep 1998 12:20:42 -0000 Received: from intschool.easynet.co.uk (HELO internationalschool.co.uk) (194.72.37.214) by papaya.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 21 Sep 1998 12:20:42 -0000 Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16841 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:06:05 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3606416E.123120E9@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:07:10 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://www.internationalschool.co.uk/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: WebSillyness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.i-want-a-website.com/about-linux/ Open Source Beer Revolution Written by James Baughn on August 9, 1998 from the adult-beverage dept. Yesterday, Red Hat introduced an 'open source' beer called Red Brew. The recipes for making the beer are available for free over the Net, and microbrewery kits are available at low cost from Red Hat. Says a Red Hat spokesman, "With the proliferation of free (open source) software, it was only a matter of time before open source beer became reality. After all, the only thing hackers like more than free software is free beer!" Following the Red Hat annoucement, other companies are racing to launch their own beer 'distribution'. Caldera is developing an OpenBrew beer. Meanwhile, Patrick Volkerding is working on a SlackBeer distribution, and GNU/DebianBrew is expected soon. "With all the beer distributions coming soon, microbrewers will have plenty of options to choose from," the webmaster of the newly-formed opensourcebeer.org website said. Traditional breweries and beer distributors are not thrilled about open source beer. "This is ludicrous! People want beer that comes from time-tested, secret recipes -- not beer from recipes invented overnight! Open source is a fad," a spokesman for Buddwizzer Beer, Inc. said. In addition, other beverage distributors are nervous. "First open source beer, and soon open source soft drinks! Before we know it, we'll have RedCoke and SlackPepsi! This open source plague must be stopped before it eats into our bottom line! Don't quote me on that last sentence," the CEO of Croak-a-Cola said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 06:07:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:07:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA03386 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:07:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from urdarbrunni.ifi.uio.no (2602@urdarbrunni.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.184]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id PAA07097; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:07:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by urdarbrunni.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:07:03 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Network Computers References: <199809210821.BAA21618@word.smith.net.au> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 Sep 1998 15:07:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mike Smith's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:21:18 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA03391 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith writes: > > How does a network computer differ from an X terminal? Is NC just a catch > > phrase for X terminal? > An X terminal is a local display for the X Window System. NC is a > marketting term which is generally applied to "thin fat clients", ie. a > client system with the ability to offload some amount of the > application processing from the server to the NC. The amount of > offloading depends on whose NC definition you buy. I'll rephrase Jason's question: how does an NC differ from a diskless workstation? To me, the entire NC concept sounds very much like reinventing some kind of wheel. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 06:29:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08076 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA08070 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:29:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id JAA04464 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:28:53 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:28:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Which is better, Freebsd, or linux? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think this is probably the best response I have seen to this question so far. Jamie Bowden -- Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 21 Sep 1998 06:24:03 GMT From: Marc Slemko Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, comp.os.linux.advocacy Subject: Re: Which is better, Freebsd, or linux? In <6u4ndp$cdu@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> dswan@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Daniel Swan) writes: >Which is better, Freebsd, or Linux? FreeBSD because it has a cooler md5: fd861d80cc9153edc2d68a3d67980385 is much better than 1b61f2a016f7478478fcb13130fcec7b. >Which is better supported? Yes. >Which is more compatable?? FreeBSD is more compatible with Linux than Linux is with FreeBSD. >What are the advantages/disadvantages, and significant >differences in either? The problem with FreeBSD is that things look funny when you look at it upside down. Please, this question is asked every other day. Go search DejaNews or read some FAQs or just try them out yourself. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 06:59:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13679 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA13602 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zL62u-0000w5-00; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:30:28 +0200 Message-ID: <19980921153028.A3570@cityip.co.za> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:30:28 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Network Computers Mail-Followup-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , FreeBSD-chat References: <199809210821.BAA21618@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpn27tobrd=2Efsf=40urdarbrunni=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_from_Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Mon=2C_Sep_21=2C_199?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?8_at_03:07:02PM_+0200?= X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA13655 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 at 15:07 SAT, Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > I'll rephrase Jason's question: how does an NC differ from a diskless > workstation? To me, the entire NC concept sounds very much like > reinventing some kind of wheel. I agree. However, as I understand it, the whole NC concept relies heavily on the Java / executable bytecode concept. So the difference might possibly be summarised by a table such as this: | Program storage | Program execution ----------------+---------------------+------------------ (X) Terminal | Server | Server Client/Server | Client | Client NC | Server | Client (Note that I in no way claim expertise; to me, NCs are things about which I read in trade rags.) -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 08:09:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24707 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picasso.tellique.de (picasso.tellique.de [62.144.106.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24657 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:09:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by picasso.tellique.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22140; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:08:27 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <36066C4C.830B42CD@tellique.de> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:10:04 +0200 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Network Computers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > How does a network computer differ from an X terminal? Is NC just a > catch phrase for X terminal? As it has been written before, it depends on who you ask. For instance, I had to do with NCD and Tektronix some time ago. Both have been marketing things as "NCs" that had been X terminals before. Another part of their NC concept is, though, that besides vanilla X applications these (and other X terminals) can also be used to run MS Windows-based applications with an appropriate application server, which is running under the respective vendor's or some other variant of a multi-user Windows NT and runs NT sessions as X11 clients. On the other hand, both vendors seem to have abandoned the term NC now and thrown themselves on "Thin Client", which again is nothing *really* well-defined. Often the ability to runs Java bytecode on a local VM is associated with the term "NC", something that some X terminals can do as well. In general, both terms "NC" and "Thin Client" (and some more) are applied to machines ranging from diskless-workstation-type things to plain X terminals. Different people mean different things. -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 10:24:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19541 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19392 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17886; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:23:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199809211723.KAA17886@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: References: Mike Smith's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:21:18 -0700" Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >I'll rephrase Jason's question: how does an NC differ from a diskless >workstation? To me, the entire NC concept sounds very much like >reinventing some kind of wheel. The original concept of "NC" was not necessarily diskless -- it might be, to save costs, but it might have a disk to speed things up. The big push for the "network computer" was because it costs a hell of a lot of money to maintain and upgrade thousands of computers. Most of this maintainence and upgrading is with the software. So someone thought, Wouldn't it be nifty if the software could be upgraded in one central location, and then all of the computers in the company would automatically pick it up? The easiest way to do that, of course, is with something like an X Terminal. The next step up (doing local processing) would be a diskless workstation. Both of these ahve been done before, and aren't terribly exciting. But the step above that -- which hasn't started to materialize, and I am afraid it may be abandoned -- would be something that is essentially a normal computer (PC, Mac, unix system, whatever) which periodically checked the "central server," and, if there was some new versions of the software there, would pick those up and install them. (There are a bunch of things this requires which I am just going to ignore for the moment.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 11:16:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26678 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:16:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26652 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:16:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no (2602@skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.2]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with SMTP id UAA22105 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:15:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (dag-erli@localhost) by skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:15:12 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: Mike Smith's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:21:18 -0700" <199809211723.KAA17886@kithrup.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 Sep 1998 20:15:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: Sean Eric Fagan's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:23:20 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA26673 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan writes: > But the step above that -- which hasn't started to materialize, and I am > afraid it may be abandoned -- would be something that is essentially a normal > computer (PC, Mac, unix system, whatever) which periodically checked the > "central server," and, if there was some new versions of the software there, > would pick those up and install them. (There are a bunch of things this > requires which I am just going to ignore for the moment.) Umm, exactly how long did you say you've you been using Unix? I can think of a bunch of different ways to achieve that with plain ol' Unix workstations. Slap KDE on top and you're on your way. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 11:23:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28364 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28331 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22069; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:23:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199809211823.LAA22069@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: References: Sean Eric Fagan's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:23:20 -0700 (PDT)" Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >> would pick those up and install them. (There are a bunch of things this >> requires which I am just going to ignore for the moment.) > >Umm, exactly how long did you say you've you been using Unix? I can >think of a bunch of different ways to achieve that with plain ol' Unix >workstations. Slap KDE on top and you're on your way. Then you are remarkably ignorant and have never actually tried it. Automated upgrades are *hard*. And no unix at this point is set up for them to be done. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 11:28:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29253 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:28:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29206 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:27:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no (2602@skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.2]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with SMTP id UAA23812; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:27:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (dag-erli@localhost) by skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:27:08 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: sef@kithrup.com Subject: Re: Network Computers References: Mike Smith's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:21:18 -0700" <199809211723.KAA17886@kithrup.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 Sep 1998 20:27:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no's message of "21 Sep 1998 20:15:09 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA29226 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav ) writes: > Sean Eric Fagan writes: > > But the step above that -- which hasn't started to materialize, and I am > > afraid it may be abandoned -- would be something that is essentially a normal > > computer (PC, Mac, unix system, whatever) which periodically checked the > > "central server," and, if there was some new versions of the software there, > > would pick those up and install them. (There are a bunch of things this > > requires which I am just going to ignore for the moment.) > > Umm, exactly how long did you say you've you been using Unix? On second thought, I take this question back :) > I can > think of a bunch of different ways to achieve that with plain ol' Unix > workstations. Slap KDE on top and you're on your way. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 11:37:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01848 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:37:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terror.hungry.com (terror.hungry.com [199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA01821 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:37:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@hungry.com) Received: (qmail 28506 invoked by uid 507); 21 Sep 1998 18:36:40 -0000 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: <199809211723.KAA17886@kithrup.com> From: Faried Nawaz Date: 21 Sep 1998 11:36:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: sef@kithrup.com's message of 21 Sep 1998 10:25:16 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.16 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org People at my former school actually did something like this. The computer lab PCs (running DOS/Win3.11 or Win95) and Macs would compare the contents of their local hard drives with certain servers, and sync everything (registry, apps on the local disk, etc). The local drives were mainly used for caching web pages and temp space for documents/apps. Every student had to login (authentication was done via Novell servers) before using the machines, and their personalized Windows/Mac settings were stored on their network drives. Whenever they logged out/shutdown the machine, the system would save their settings and resync with the server. It worked out pretty well, though it made for 3-5 minute reboots. The worst-case scenario was when the local drive was accidentally/maliciously deleted; it would require someone to come up and manually update the hard drive image (via a floppy or something). Then again, it was an academic environment, and people could always move to another computer or lab if things were down. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 11:40:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02748 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02695 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no (2602@skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.2]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with SMTP id UAA25403 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:40:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (dag-erli@localhost) by skejdbrimir.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:40:04 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: Sean Eric Fagan's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:23:20 -0700 (PDT)" <199809211823.LAA22069@kithrup.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 Sep 1998 20:40:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: Sean Eric Fagan's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:23:17 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 37 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA02733 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan writes: > > Umm, exactly how long did you say you've you been using Unix? I can > > think of a bunch of different ways to achieve that with plain ol' Unix > > workstations. Slap KDE on top and you're on your way. > Then you are remarkably ignorant and have never actually tried it. The first part of that sentence is open to debate. The second is mostly correct. > Automated upgrades are *hard*. And no unix at this point is set up > for them to be done. Yes, it's hard. No, no currently available Unix is set up to do them. But I don't think it's impossible, especially if you're working under the assumption that the user isn't allowed to touch anything. 'make world' can be construed as a small step in the direction of automated upgrades... A halfway solution might be a workstation connected to application and data servers, where applications and shared (non-user-modifiable) data are cached locally. Every time you request a remote file, the system queries the server for an MD5 or similar checksum and compares it to a locally stored checksum of the cached copy. (this almost sounds like Coda FS...) In any case, I don't see the point of an NC as a separate platform. As far as I am aware, everything an NC is supposed to do can be implemented in software on existing platforms using existing operating systems (possibly with hacked kernels). The pretty blue (or black, or whatever) box and the cool name are just marketing fads. "FreeBSD workstation running custom software for automatic upgrades" doesn't sound as cool in a TV ad as "International Gizmos, Inc.'s hot new Network Computer" DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 12:54:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21480 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:54:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21428 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11265; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:46:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809211646.JAA11265@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) cc: Mike Smith , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Network Computers In-reply-to: Your message of "21 Sep 1998 15:07:02 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:46:46 -0700 From: Mike Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id MAA21457 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Mike Smith writes: > > > How does a network computer differ from an X terminal? Is NC just a catch > > > phrase for X terminal? > > An X terminal is a local display for the X Window System. NC is a > > marketting term which is generally applied to "thin fat clients", ie. a > > client system with the ability to offload some amount of the > > application processing from the server to the NC. The amount of > > offloading depends on whose NC definition you buy. > > I'll rephrase Jason's question: how does an NC differ from a diskless > workstation? To me, the entire NC concept sounds very much like > reinventing some kind of wheel. Congratulations, you've guessed the secret handshake and you get to join The NC Club. Ideologically, NC's are "thinner" than diskless workstations, but this is often illusory (eg. JavaStation, NetPC, DNARD, etc.) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 13:58:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03927 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03918 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:58:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00779 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:58:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:58:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: <199809211723.KAA17886@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > The big push for the "network computer" was because it costs a hell of a lot > of money to maintain and upgrade thousands of computers. Most of this > maintainence and upgrading is with the software. So someone thought, Wouldn't > it be nifty if the software could be upgraded in one central location, and > then all of the computers in the company would automatically pick it up? Hmm, gee, sounds like something I do with some freeware utilities, PC-RDist (free to K12 schools), and a lot of custom batch files. For the Lose95 clients, of course. :-) Not even close to what a NC is supposed to do, but it still lets me manage software on the machines without needing to ever touch them. It only picks up the changes every 12 hours or if you do a manual run. It makes my life about 1000 times easier. > The easiest way to do that, of course, is with something like an X Terminal. > The next step up (doing local processing) would be a diskless workstation. > Both of these ahve been done before, and aren't terribly exciting. > > But the step above that -- which hasn't started to materialize, and I am > afraid it may be abandoned -- would be something that is essentially a normal > computer (PC, Mac, unix system, whatever) which periodically checked the > "central server," and, if there was some new versions of the software there, > would pick those up and install them. (There are a bunch of things this > requires which I am just going to ignore for the moment.) That is exactly what I'm doing at the moment, and it works like a charm. I am, however, probably doing it differently than most people would... With an iron fist. :-) The systems are very "impersonal", and any changes made by a user get changed back to the way I want them. I have a database which PCRdist looks at which tells it what hardware platform the machine is part of, what printer the computer should print to, what drives should be mapped, what software packages should be installed, etc... Very modular and easy to manage, and free of all user-isms. The whole "process" is also free if anybody really wants it, though I haven't documented it well yet. :-) I could do something very similar if I were using FreeBSD or Linux workstations here (which I would _really_ love, but alas, most people here say "Duh, What's Unix?" or "But, it doesn't run MS Word". Ugh.). -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 14:14:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07722 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:14:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07684 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:13:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id XAA12891; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:13:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:13:27 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Dillon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Followup-To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Network Computers References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 Sep 1998 23:13:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: Chris Dillon's message of "Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:58:02 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA07689 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Dillon writes: > I could do something very similar if I were using FreeBSD or Linux > workstations here (which I would _really_ love, but alas, most people > here say "Duh, What's Unix?" or "But, it doesn't run MS Word". Ugh.). To which you answer, 'but it does run StarOffice and ApplixWare'. FU set to -advocacy :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 14:42:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14070 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:42:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13786 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA51804 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:40:18 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id OAA17514 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:40:25 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: <199809211646.JAA11265@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Congratulations, you've guessed the secret handshake and you get to >join The NC Club. I never realized I was delving into such a large subject. No wonder I couldn't look at NC vendor webistes and figure out what the heck an NC is. The break down goes like this: (?) Xterm: No horse power display. Diskless WS: Horspe power display with no disc. Workstation: Horsepowered display with disc. NC: Some variation of the above plus may included secret decoder ring for acronyms. :) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 15:56:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03476 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:56:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03345 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13843; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:55:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980921175504.64901@futuresouth.com> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:55:04 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: <199809211723.KAA17886@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199809211723.KAA17886@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 10:23:20AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 10:23:20AM -0700, Sean Eric Fagan woke me up to tell me: > > The big push for the "network computer" was because it costs a hell of a lot > of money to maintain and upgrade thousands of computers. Most of this > maintainence and upgrading is with the software. So someone thought, Wouldn't > it be nifty if the software could be upgraded in one central location, and > then all of the computers in the company would automatically pick it up? The phrases 'NFS' and 'rdist' come to mind first. Yeah, I know it's not perfect, but it's a set in the right direction. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 16:47:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16211 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15819 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:45:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (pm02-13.aei.ca [206.123.6.138]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25334 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3606E500.8CF53B11@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:45:04 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ssh in canada. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What are the possible consequence of using ssh in canada? I was forced to put the usa_resident flag in /etc/make.conf to compile ssh. -- [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 17:29:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28631 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:29:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from beef.cybertouch.org (h24-64-138-128.mt.wave.shaw.ca [24.64.138.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28609 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beef@beef.cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (beef@localhost) by beef.cybertouch.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA00499; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:25:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from beef@beef.cybertouch.org) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:25:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: Malartre cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh in canada. In-Reply-To: <3606E500.8CF53B11@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Malartre wrote: > What are the possible consequence of using ssh in canada? I was forced > to put the usa_resident flag in /etc/make.conf to compile ssh. > -- > [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/] I am in Canada and installed ssh. So far I have had no problem. And if its not legal for some reason. What would the reason be? If gov'ts are worrying about ssh..maybe they should focus on the ease of children seeing hard core porn and brutality. They might get somewhere. lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 19:34:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21149 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:34:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21019 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02014; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:33:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:33:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: "Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA21052 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Sep 1998, Dag-Erling C. [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: > Chris Dillon writes: > > I could do something very similar if I were using FreeBSD or Linux > > workstations here (which I would _really_ love, but alas, most people > > here say "Duh, What's Unix?" or "But, it doesn't run MS Word". Ugh.). > > To which you answer, 'but it does run StarOffice and ApplixWare'. > > FU set to -advocacy :) And I get the reply "Yeah, but we're standardizing on MS Word". Double-ugh. Unfortunately the person before me got that started, and IMHO, it was a very bad move. Inertia has its way, though. It isn't so much a matter of wether StarOffice or ApplixWare can read/write Word stuff either, its the look&feel they want to keep too. I deal with the type of people that if one little icon moves on the screen, they get all upset because its "different now". I may try setting up a FreeBSD box with a neat window manager and StarOffice or ApplixWare and have someone who has never seen Unix sit in front of it and use it for a while. If they like it, it would be proof to the higher-ups that the neophytes really _can_ handle unix. :-) Me: "How'd you like it?" User: "Its cool! I like it. Is that the new version of Windows?" Me: "Erm, well, it isn't Windows. It's Unix. FreeBSD to be exact." User: "Ewnicks? What's that?" Me: "A type of operating system." User: "Oh." Maybe once computer literacy makes it into the gene pool we'll be better off. ;-> -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 21:06:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07672 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07592 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA16952; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:05:03 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980922140459.61177@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:04:59 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Chris Dillon Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav?= , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Dillon on Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 09:33:25PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 09:33:25PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > On 21 Sep 1998, Dag-Erling C. [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: > > > Chris Dillon writes: > > > I could do something very similar if I were using FreeBSD or Linux > > > workstations here (which I would _really_ love, but alas, most people > > > here say "Duh, What's Unix?" or "But, it doesn't run MS Word". Ugh.). > > > > To which you answer, 'but it does run StarOffice and ApplixWare'. > > > > FU set to -advocacy :) > > And I get the reply "Yeah, but we're standardizing on MS Word". > Double-ugh. Unfortunately the person before me got that started, and > IMHO, it was a very bad move. Inertia has its way, though. It isn't so > much a matter of wether StarOffice or ApplixWare can read/write Word > stuff either, its the look&feel they want to keep too. Too? I'd bet that's all they're looking for. They find its look and feeel acceptable, they're used to it, and they've decided to standardise on it. They wouldn't give two hoots what OS is under it, or even what word processor it is, so long as it's the same look and feel. That's all they know, the whole sum total of what computers are to them. They have never been granted access to anything else, much less control. To do so would require enormous sums spent on full (not just token) training, support, and work time to play with the system to get to know it and fix it afterwards. Of course that's not on, too expensive, risky, and we just want them to be able to type! > I deal with the type of people that if one little icon moves on the > screen, they get all upset because its "different now". Typical reaction of someone who is required to be productive in an environment which they neither understand nor can control. They barely hang in there by gaining familiarity with the parts they touch. That's all they have. Change must be tremendously threatening to anyone in that situation. > I may try setting up a FreeBSD box > with a neat window manager and StarOffice or ApplixWare and have someone > who has never seen Unix sit in front of it and use it for a while. They would love it if they judged it by our criteria. They certainly won't, and they certainly won't. On the other hand, if it looked simiar and responded identically to every mouse click, mouse movement, and key combination, and all the dialog boxes had the same content, I predict they would accept it. If, for example, a mail merge had to be done <100 names at a time, they could adapt. But that print button must be third from the left!! Please don't think I'm trying to defend or put down either side. I think some of us, including you, are genuinely interested in finding ways to bring sanity to the world. The prerequisite is to fully understand and have empathy with those who would oppose us. Otherwise, no matter how carefully we formulate our arguments why should they even bother listening? We're asking them to let go, but we've got a hell of a lot of letting go to do ourselves first. The context here is word processing, but the principles can apply to all types of interaction where different conclusions are drawn from different world views. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 21:19:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09030 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:19:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09021 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:19:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA29756; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:23:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199809220423.OAA29756@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: <19980922140459.61177@welearn.com.au> from Sue Blake at "Sep 22, 98 02:04:59 pm" To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:23:40 +1000 (EST) Cc: cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us, dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > The context here is word processing, but the principles can apply > to all types of interaction where different conclusions are drawn > from different world views. Umm, so which political party are you representing in the election? You sounded just like big Kim. 8-) 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 21 22:25:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20881 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20872 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:24:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02545; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:24:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:24:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: Sue Blake cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav?= , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: <19980922140459.61177@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id WAA20875 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 09:33:25PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > > On 21 Sep 1998, Dag-Erling C. [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: > > > > > Chris Dillon writes: > > > > I could do something very similar if I were using FreeBSD or Linux > > > > workstations here (which I would _really_ love, but alas, most people > > > > here say "Duh, What's Unix?" or "But, it doesn't run MS Word". Ugh.). > > > > > > To which you answer, 'but it does run StarOffice and ApplixWare'. > > > > > > FU set to -advocacy :) > > > > And I get the reply "Yeah, but we're standardizing on MS Word". > > Double-ugh. Unfortunately the person before me got that started, and > > IMHO, it was a very bad move. Inertia has its way, though. It isn't so > > much a matter of wether StarOffice or ApplixWare can read/write Word > > stuff either, its the look&feel they want to keep too. > > Too? I'd bet that's all they're looking for. They find its look and > feeel acceptable, they're used to it, and they've decided to > standardise on it. > > They wouldn't give two hoots what OS is under it, or even what word > processor it is, so long as it's the same look and feel. That's all > they know, the whole sum total of what computers are to them. They have > never been granted access to anything else, much less control. We switched from Office 95 to Office 97 about a year or so ago. That was actually quite a change in user interface (I hate Office 97... I managed to stand using Office 95. It did less behind your back or without your permission). I had to munge around and find menu items that moved from one menu to an entirely different one, or even disappeared entirely and moved to a dialog box that popped up when you accessed something else. If our users managed to swallow that change, learning StarOffice or Applixware should be a breeze. :-) StarOffice actually looks very much like Office 95 (the wp and spreadsheet parts of it), or at least I think so, so that wouldn't be a problem for most people to use. I've never seen ApplixWare, but I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to grasp either. > To do so would require enormous sums spent on full (not just token) > training, support, and work time to play with the system to get to know > it and fix it afterwards. Of course that's not on, too expensive, > risky, and we just want them to be able to type! Fortunately, training is just what we're in the business of. :-) > > I deal with the type of people that if one little icon moves on the > > screen, they get all upset because its "different now". > > Typical reaction of someone who is required to be productive in an > environment which they neither understand nor can control. They barely > hang in there by gaining familiarity with the parts they touch. That's > all they have. Change must be tremendously threatening to anyone in > that situation. I should have said I _did_ deal with those types of people at one time. At least in my organization, we've probably shocked them with so much change that they've adapted to be more adaptive, if you know what I mean. > > > I may try setting up a FreeBSD box > > with a neat window manager and StarOffice or ApplixWare and have someone > > who has never seen Unix sit in front of it and use it for a while. > > They would love it if they judged it by our criteria. They certainly > won't, and they certainly won't. I'm not wanting them to judge it by our criteria. I want to see if I can create something that the average user wouldn't have much trouble learning how to use. It should be easy to whip up stuff that looks identical up to a certain point (use fvwm95, maybe an explorer lookalike file browser, etc.). > On the other hand, if it looked simiar and responded identically to > every mouse click, mouse movement, and key combination, and all the > dialog boxes had the same content, I predict they would accept it. > If, for example, a mail merge had to be done <100 names at a time, > they could adapt. But that print button must be third from the left!! > I don't think everything would have to be _exactly_ the same. Most people can easily adapt to a little change. If things look even just vaguely familiar, some people will still be able to adapt quickly on their own, and the rest will take a little bit of handholding until they realize it really isn't all that much different. > Please don't think I'm trying to defend or put down either side. > I think some of us, including you, are genuinely interested in finding > ways to bring sanity to the world. The prerequisite is to fully > understand and have empathy with those who would oppose us. > Otherwise, no matter how carefully we formulate our arguments why > should they even bother listening? We're asking them to let go, but > we've got a hell of a lot of letting go to do ourselves first. > > The context here is word processing, but the principles can apply > to all types of interaction where different conclusions are drawn > from different world views. > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 02:13:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23250 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gate.consol.de (gate.consol.de [194.162.127.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23230 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:13:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Michael.Elbel@consol.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: Michael.Elbel@consol.de (at relayer gate.consol.de) Received: from msgsrv.bb.consol.de (root@msgsrv [10.250.0.100]) by gate.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20958 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:12:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fourier.int.consol.de (me@fourier.int.consol.de [10.0.1.17]) by msgsrv.bb.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08704 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:12:32 +0200 Received: (from me@localhost) by fourier.int.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA19169; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:12:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from me) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:12:31 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Elbel Message-Id: <199809220912.LAA19169@fourier.int.consol.de> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: <199809211646.JAA11265@word.smith.net.au> Reply-To: me@FreeBSD.ORG X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #123 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In lists.freebsd.chat you write: [...] >> I'll rephrase Jason's question: how does an NC differ from a diskless >> workstation? To me, the entire NC concept sounds very much like >> reinventing some kind of wheel. >Congratulations, you've guessed the secret handshake and you get to >join The NC Club. Since when have things gone so soft? I thought we were supposed to shoot them as soon as they find out? Michael -- \|/ -O- Michael Elbel, ConSol* GmbH, - me@consol.de - 089 / 45841-256 /|\ Fermentation fault (coors dumped) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 04:27:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA14829 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:27:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA14822 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:27:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id NAA03531; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:26:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:26:23 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: Chris Dillon , "Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: <19980922140459.61177@welearn.com.au> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 22 Sep 1998 13:26:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: Sue Blake's message of "Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:04:59 +1000" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id EAA14825 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake writes: > To do so would require enormous sums spent on full (not just token) > training, support, and work time to play with the system to get to know > it and fix it afterwards. Of course that's not on, too expensive, > risky, and we just want them to be able to type! If all they want is to be able to type, give 'em a bloody typewriter and keep all the nifty hardware in your office so you can play Quake with a decent frame rate. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 05:38:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24099 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 05:38:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA24078 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 05:38:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 28767 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1998 12:36:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.3) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 22 Sep 1998 12:36:50 -0000 Message-ID: <36079A35.4D29D650@pipeline.ch> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:38:13 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lanny Baron CC: Malartre , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh in canada. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lanny Baron wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > What are the possible consequence of using ssh in canada? I was forced > > to put the usa_resident flag in /etc/make.conf to compile ssh. > > -- > > [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/] > > I am in Canada and installed ssh. So far I have had no problem. > And if its not legal for some reason. What would the reason be? There is no problem to export crypto stuff from the US to Canada but then the stronger US regulations apply also in Canada. That means you're not able to re-export it to the world, what would be otherwise possible for crypto made in Canada. > If gov'ts are worrying about ssh..maybe they should focus on the ease of > children seeing hard core porn and brutality. They might get somewhere. The US crypto policy has a (or more) serious bug: The argument for strong crypto export control is that "criminals" (they mean terrorists) otherwise could get hold of it and use it. Now they make it illegal to export it and think they can stop the criminal doing a crime by making it a crime to do so... stupid! I admit that it helps to control the export of nuclear and other weapons but they are physical. Crypto is not "physical", it's knowledge and/or software. That means it is not controllable what gets exported. [hmmm... I like this discussion!] -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 05:56:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26681 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 05:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26670 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 05:56:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA06658; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:55:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA03124; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:55:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980922145530.20972@follo.net> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:55:30 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Chris Dillon , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Dillon on Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 09:33:25PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 09:33:25PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > On 21 Sep 1998, Dag-Erling C. [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: > > > Chris Dillon writes: > > > I could do something very similar if I were using FreeBSD or Linux > > > workstations here (which I would _really_ love, but alas, most people > > > here say "Duh, What's Unix?" or "But, it doesn't run MS Word". Ugh.). > > > > To which you answer, 'but it does run StarOffice and ApplixWare'. > > > > FU set to -advocacy :) > > And I get the reply "Yeah, but we're standardizing on MS Word". And to this you reply something like this: "MS-Word - there is no MS word. There is just different versions of MS-Word, with the same problems between them as between different word-processors. Like the fact that it can't read the old documents - I sometimes feel a little disconcerned that all the companies that use MS Word throws away their archives every two years..." Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 07:30:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12079 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:30:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m8.sprynet.com (m8.sprynet.com [165.121.1.208]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11912; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:29:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from slavadx@sprynet.com) From: slavadx@sprynet.com Received: from [199.174.238.68] (hd58-068.hil.compuserve.com [199.174.238.68]) by m8.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA28592; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809221429.HAA28592@m8.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 08:19:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21251 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21240 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id BAA18479; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:18:15 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980923011811.37850@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:18:11 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Chris Dillon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: <19980922140459.61177@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Dillon on Tue, Sep 22, 1998 at 12:24:08AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 22, 1998 at 12:24:08AM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > > They wouldn't give two hoots what OS is under it, or even what word > > processor it is, so long as it's the same look and feel. That's all > > they know, the whole sum total of what computers are to them. They have > > never been granted access to anything else, much less control. > > We switched from Office 95 to Office 97 about a year or so ago. That > was actually quite a change in user interface (I hate Office 97... I > managed to stand using Office 95. It did less behind your back or > without your permission). I had to munge around and find menu items > that moved from one menu to an entirely different one, or even > disappeared entirely and moved to a dialog box that popped up when you > accessed something else. If our users managed to swallow that change, > learning StarOffice or Applixware should be a breeze. :-) Interesting. How did they react to the change? What did they say about it? What did they find most difficult to get used to? What did they like? This is all stuff you can draw on to win them over. > StarOffice actually looks very much like Office 95 (the wp and > spreadsheet parts of it), or at least I think so, so that wouldn't be a > problem for most people to use. I've never seen ApplixWare, but I > imagine it wouldn't be too hard to grasp either. Some time ago I was forced to do some fairly advanced word processing to a Word document under sin95. Eventually I stole the document and tried to finish it off with Applixware. It looked similar enough, but there were real problems when I tried to use keys instead of the mouse for speed. They just didn't work right. For example there's ways to select a couple of lines and move them up or down the page, apply styles, flip in and out of outline view, do battle with tables and numbered lists, and so on. To do all that stuff with the mouse would be way to slow. Unless the editing keys are identical it'll be far from an easy change, no matter how it looks on screen. I suspect Star Office would differ too. If all its key commands are the same, you've got exactly what it is that they've decided they want. Who cares what OS is under it. > Fortunately, training is just what we're in the business of. :-) Uh-oh. So the scairdy-staff are examples of your mob's training? :-) > > They would love it if they judged it by our criteria. They certainly > > won't, and they certainly won't. > > I'm not wanting them to judge it by our criteria. I want to see if I > can create something that the average user wouldn't have much trouble > learning how to use. It should be easy to whip up stuff that looks > identical up to a certain point (use fvwm95, maybe an explorer lookalike > file browser, etc.). Give them enough free time to play, with a playful attitude, and they'll get used to it. In most businesses that time isn't available and the playful attitude is too guilt-ridden. I've had a hell of a job getting staff to play solitaire during work time to improve their mouse skills, even though they liked the game a lot and had been ordered to play it. Maybe you could find a familiar (no-learning) game that would get them in. Don't bother with solitaire or anything that could look like a cheap imitation of what they've seen. I dunno what game though. Also, there might be some handy work toys that aren't available on the other system. I don't know what they're missing out on now, but you could think of a few things they'd appreciate. Cut and paste will be a winner once it's explained. If they're teachers, consider setting up xmbase-grok for student info and grades (I've used it for that and it worked well). Select a field delimiter that makes the files compatible with their old system. Find some toys they'll be miserable without :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 10:28:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16940 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16935 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05716; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:28:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:28:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: Eivind Eklund cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav?= , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: <19980922145530.20972@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA16936 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Mon, Sep 21, 1998 at 09:33:25PM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > > On 21 Sep 1998, Dag-Erling C. [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: > > > > > Chris Dillon writes: > > > > I could do something very similar if I were using FreeBSD or Linux > > > > workstations here (which I would _really_ love, but alas, most people > > > > here say "Duh, What's Unix?" or "But, it doesn't run MS Word". Ugh.). > > > > > > To which you answer, 'but it does run StarOffice and ApplixWare'. > > > > > > FU set to -advocacy :) > > > > And I get the reply "Yeah, but we're standardizing on MS Word". > > And to this you reply something like this: "MS-Word - there is no MS > word. There is just different versions of MS-Word, with the same > problems between them as between different word-processors. Like the > fact that it can't read the old documents - I sometimes feel a little > disconcerned that all the companies that use MS Word throws away their > archives every two years..." Right. But how do you explain this to someone who has been brainwashed? :-) That's rhetorical.. Don't answer it. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 10:54:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21823 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:54:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21769 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:53:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05846; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:53:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:53:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: Sue Blake cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers In-Reply-To: <19980923011811.37850@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Sep 22, 1998 at 12:24:08AM -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > They wouldn't give two hoots what OS is under it, or even what word > > > processor it is, so long as it's the same look and feel. That's all > > > they know, the whole sum total of what computers are to them. They have > > > never been granted access to anything else, much less control. > > > > We switched from Office 95 to Office 97 about a year or so ago. That > > was actually quite a change in user interface (I hate Office 97... I > > managed to stand using Office 95. It did less behind your back or > > without your permission). I had to munge around and find menu items > > that moved from one menu to an entirely different one, or even > > disappeared entirely and moved to a dialog box that popped up when you > > accessed something else. If our users managed to swallow that change, > > learning StarOffice or Applixware should be a breeze. :-) > > Interesting. How did they react to the change? What did they say about > it? What did they find most difficult to get used to? What did they > like? This is all stuff you can draw on to win them over. I never bothered to research it. Someone else decided to make the change and I just installed the stupid thing. I imagine there were people that had a hard time with it at first, but most of the help for that came from people other than myself. One thing that bugs me the most about Word97 is all the autoformatting it does. It thinks it knows best and you have to actually do extra work to keep it the way you want it. I imagine that frustrated a lot of people. I would have turned off all that autoformatting by default, but that isn't what I was told to do. > > StarOffice actually looks very much like Office 95 (the wp and > > spreadsheet parts of it), or at least I think so, so that wouldn't be a > > problem for most people to use. I've never seen ApplixWare, but I > > imagine it wouldn't be too hard to grasp either. > > Some time ago I was forced to do some fairly advanced word processing > to a Word document under sin95. Eventually I stole the document and > tried to finish it off with Applixware. It looked similar enough, but > there were real problems when I tried to use keys instead of the mouse > for speed. They just didn't work right. For example there's ways to > select a couple of lines and move them up or down the page, apply > styles, flip in and out of outline view, do battle with tables and > numbered lists, and so on. To do all that stuff with the mouse would be > way to slow. Unless the editing keys are identical it'll be far from an > easy change, no matter how it looks on screen. I suspect Star Office > would differ too. If all its key commands are the same, you've got > exactly what it is that they've decided they want. Who cares what OS is > under it. Could this be because Windows actually has a more standard (or rather, inflexible) key map? It seems like a lot of different factors can affect what keys do what in X, including which X server you use, which window manager you use, etc. > > Fortunately, training is just what we're in the business of. :-) > > Uh-oh. So the scairdy-staff are examples of your mob's training? :-) The not-so-scairdy-anymore staff if you want to think of it like that. They're used to it. :-) > > > They would love it if they judged it by our criteria. They certainly > > > won't, and they certainly won't. > > > > I'm not wanting them to judge it by our criteria. I want to see if I > > can create something that the average user wouldn't have much trouble > > learning how to use. It should be easy to whip up stuff that looks > > identical up to a certain point (use fvwm95, maybe an explorer lookalike > > file browser, etc.). > > Give them enough free time to play, with a playful attitude, and they'll > get used to it. In most businesses that time isn't available and the > playful attitude is too guilt-ridden. I've had a hell of a job getting > staff to play solitaire during work time to improve their mouse skills, > even though they liked the game a lot and had been ordered to play it. I know what you mean. I feel guilty sitting down to read all this mail sometimes, even though 99% of it is techincal and could help my job out a lot. I'm not working at the moment, so I don't feel guilty right now. > Maybe you could find a familiar (no-learning) game that would get them > in. Don't bother with solitaire or anything that could look like a > cheap imitation of what they've seen. I dunno what game though. I think just calling it a "game" in the first place could incite a feeling of guilt. How about "interactive instructional demo"? :-) > Also, there might be some handy work toys that aren't available on the > other system. I don't know what they're missing out on now, but you > could think of a few things they'd appreciate. Cut and paste will be a > winner once it's explained. If they're teachers, consider setting up > xmbase-grok for student info and grades (I've used it for that and it > worked well). Select a field delimiter that makes the files compatible > with their old system. Find some toys they'll be miserable without :-) I know one thing I really hate to go without is the text copy/paste the way it is done in X. Select with left button, paste with middle (or chord the two buttons for two-button mice). Can't get simpler than that. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 11:25:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26958 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26953 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:25:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00358 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199809221831.LAA00358@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Debugging, Linux style Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:31:03 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you think we have it bad with clueless users and less clueful helpers, have a look at what we're missing: http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/90/09/21/2110249.shtml -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 11:30:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27645 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:30:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from redfish.go2net.com (redfish.go2net.com [207.178.55.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA27637 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@go2net.com) Received: from marcs by redfish.go2net.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zLXAE-00038K-00; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:27:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:27:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@redfish To: Mike Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Debugging, Linux style In-Reply-To: <199809221831.LAA00358@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > If you think we have it bad with clueless users and less clueful > helpers, have a look at what we're missing: > > http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/90/09/21/2110249.shtml ITYM http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/98/09/21/2110249.shtml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 11:44:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00537 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:44:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from amazon.com (154-31.amazon.com [204.177.154.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00474 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougb@amazon.com) Received: from zephyr.amazon.com (zephyr.amazon.com [204.177.154.23]) by amazon.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA20600; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zephyr.amazon.com id LAA18478; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Beaver To: Mike Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Debugging, Linux style In-Reply-To: <199809221831.LAA00358@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > If you think we have it bad with clueless users and less clueful > helpers, have a look at what we're missing: > > http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/90/09/21/2110249.shtml ^^ Whoops! I think that 90 should be a 98. I won't comment on the page, I don't want to spoil it for anyone. ;-) Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 14:06:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29647 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29494 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id XAA25638; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:05:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:05:18 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Debugging, Linux style References: <199809221831.LAA00358@dingo.cdrom.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 22 Sep 1998 23:05:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mike Smith's message of "Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:31:03 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA29532 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith writes: > If you think we have it bad with clueless users and less clueful > helpers, have a look at what we're missing: > > http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/90/09/21/2110249.shtml The term "shotgun debugging" comes to mind. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 14:38:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07223 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:38:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt053nb4.san.rr.com (dt053nb4.san.rr.com [204.210.34.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07187 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Received: from dal.net (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt053nb4.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14445; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Message-ID: <360818B5.BB54462@dal.net> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:37:57 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE-0920 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lanny Baron CC: Malartre , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh in canada. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lanny Baron wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > What are the possible consequence of using ssh in canada? I was forced > > to put the usa_resident flag in /etc/make.conf to compile ssh. > I am in Canada and installed ssh. So far I have had no problem. > And if its not legal for some reason. What would the reason be? > > If gov'ts are worrying about ssh..maybe they should focus on the ease of > children seeing hard core porn and brutality. They might get somewhere. Actually, one of the arguments that the American FBI uses in favor of maintaining the export restrictions on strong crypto is that it is used by child pornographers to transmit their wares. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** "Yes, the president should resign. He has lied to the American people, time and time again, and betrayed their trust. He is no longer an effective leader. Since he has admitted guilt, there is no reason to put the American people through an impeachment. He will serve absolutely no purpose in finishing out his term; the only possible solution is for the president to save some dignity and resign." - William Jefferson Clinton, 1974 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 15:19:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15451 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:19:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15340 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:19:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 29283 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1998 22:17:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.4) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 22 Sep 1998 22:17:31 -0000 Message-ID: <3608224C.70A17119@pipeline.ch> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:18:52 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Studded CC: Lanny Baron , Malartre , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh in canada. References: <360818B5.BB54462@dal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Studded wrote: > > Lanny Baron wrote: > > > > On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > > > What are the possible consequence of using ssh in canada? I was forced > > > to put the usa_resident flag in /etc/make.conf to compile ssh. > > > I am in Canada and installed ssh. So far I have had no problem. > > And if its not legal for some reason. What would the reason be? > > > > If gov'ts are worrying about ssh..maybe they should focus on the ease of > > children seeing hard core porn and brutality. They might get somewhere. > > Actually, one of the arguments that the American FBI uses in favor of > maintaining the export restrictions on strong crypto is that it is used > by child pornographers to transmit their wares. Ahhh, now I understand! Since there are no child pornographers in the US, who could use ssh legally, it is sufficient to restrict export to stop them to use it. Wow... I'd like to know the IQ of the person who made that argument... must be under room temperature... PS: SSH has been written outside the US and is there also available -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 16:02:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23651 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:02:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA23629 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0zLbRJ-0000Zb-00; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:01:45 -0600 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.1/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA04905; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:01:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199809222301.RAA04905@harmony.village.org> To: Mark Tinguely Subject: Re: FYI: function call failures Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:07:14 CDT." <199809221907.OAA07181@plains.NoDak.edu> References: <199809221907.OAA07181@plains.NoDak.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:01:58 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199809221907.OAA07181@plains.NoDak.edu> Mark Tinguely writes: : from comp.arch a reference (http://www.ices.cmu.edu/ballista/ftcs98/) to : a test of function call failures. FreeBSD did not fair too well compared : to other OSes. Looking at this, they are under the mistaken impression that things like strlen(NULL) shouldn't produce a core file. A robust system *WILL* produce a core file to show the developer of his error, rather than guess what the right thing to do is. Also, the code to generate the programs used to test things is unavailable. Boring and uninteresting, imho. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 16:46:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00928 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:46:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00869 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 0zLc7w-0005Kl-00; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:45:49 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id AAA00309; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:45:13 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16463; Wed, 23 Sep 98 00:45:11 BST Message-Id: <36084337.B74B646B@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:39:19 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Debugging, Linux style References: <199809221831.LAA00358@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith wrote: > > If you think we have it bad with clueless users and less clueful > helpers, have a look at what we're missing: > > http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/90/09/21/2110249.shtml > :-) URL is actually http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/98/09/21/2110249.shtml ^ but if you follow the first of the links to comments at the end of the article - "linux does not lock up! you must be mistaken by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 21, @09:15PM" you find - "obviously you are some sort of microsoft flunkie. everyone, including that brilliant guy who runs VA research, knows that linux doesn't lock up. maybe you havent been reading enough advocacy pamphlets. your thought is in need of correction. you need to have your mind redirected towards the global domination of linux, rather than in this direction of evil lies about our beloved operating system." Now, I don't know whether this is meant to be a tongue in cheek remark or not, but if you extract the key words - "Microsoft", "Linux", "World Domination" you can only arrive at the conclusion that Linux is a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft ;-) > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 20:35:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15471 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15432 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (daisy4.verinet.com [199.45.181.228]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA01974; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:35:03 -0600 Received: from verinet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00175; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:34:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <36086C43.3CC89DD5@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:34:27 -0600 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eivind@yes.no CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers References: <19980922145530.20972@follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > And I get the reply "Yeah, but we're standardizing on MS Word". > > And to this you reply something like this: "MS-Word - there is no MS > word. There is just different versions of MS-Word, with the same > problems between them as between different word-processors. Like the > fact that it can't read the old documents - I sometimes feel a little > disconcerned that all the companies that use MS Word throws away their > archives every two years..." > > Eivind. 4000+ Word documents masquerading as ISO material in an enormous, manually 'maintained' directory structure based on department and sub-department names (some of which no longer exist) stored on a Novell file server that crashes thrice weekly. Some quantifiable percentage of these gems are always infected with 'Concept' despite regular sweeps. Now the special people are romping around this beauty leaving behind Word 97 droppings that the regular mopes who are still (!) running 16 bit Word can't open. Why _not_ throw it out? Me? I'm hoping for a meteor. If any fool ever puts me in power I will analyze little repositories like these and fire the top ten contributors annually. Sort of an ISO reap. -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 20:51:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19089 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:51:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18945 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:50:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00201; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:49:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36086FDA.C45D2A46@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:49:46 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh CC: Mark Tinguely , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI: function call failures References: <199809221907.OAA07181@plains.NoDak.edu> <199809222301.RAA04905@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Tinguely writes: : from comp.arch a reference (http://www.ices.cmu.edu/ballista/ftcs98/) to : a test of function call failures. FreeBSD did not fair too well compared : to other OSes. Warner Losh wrote: > Looking at this, they are under the mistaken impression that things > like strlen(NULL) shouldn't produce a core file. A robust system > *WILL* produce a core file to show the developer of his error, rather > than guess what the right thing to do is. Also, the code to generate > the programs used to test things is unavailable. > > Boring and uninteresting, imho. The poor generation raised on windows don't understand that a UNIX core dump is *not* the equivalent of the "blue screen of death" on NT. A core dump is a *debugging tool.* It tells you what went wrong, if not why, and makes it much easier to track down whatever is upsetting your program. We used to ship a GDB executable with every copy of Security Toolkit/UNIX, because most of our customers didn't have it installed. This made it pretty easy to examine the core files, even if we had the customer driving. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 21:07:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22782 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:07:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22704 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:06:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from remote.my.domain (root@host-209-214-64-83.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.64.83]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA28905; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by remote.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA21745; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809230406.AAA21745@remote.my.domain> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Allen Campbell cc: eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Network Computers In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:34:27 MDT." <36086C43.3CC89DD5@verinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:06:21 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snip] > 4000+ Word documents masquerading as ISO material I thought Word was just a big joke until ITU started getting serious about publishing in that format... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 22 21:36:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27919 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27852 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:35:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01297; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Mark Tinguely cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI: function call failures In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:07:14 CDT." <199809221907.OAA07181@plains.NoDak.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:36:29 -0700 Message-ID: <1293.906525389@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > from comp.arch a reference (http://www.ices.cmu.edu/ballista/ftcs98/) to > a test of function call failures. FreeBSD did not fair too well compared > to other OSes. These aren't failures and we've already had a flame-fest over a pre-release of this paper. :-) A failure is an [un]expected condition which produces an undesired result. When you pass NULL to strlen(), it is a desirable result for it to dump core just as surely as if you'd gone *((int *)0) = 10; You WANT those errors to crop up early so you can figure out what else went wrong to get an unchecked string into a function which is now blithely passing it around to other routines not written to take NULL as a valid argument. Yes? I think most people here can agree with that. This guy, however, calls it a failure when his test suite passes all manner of bogus arguments to various library functions, functions which are not documented as accepting arbitrarily bogus pointers, and one of them dumps core. He's arguing from a fundamentally different viewpoint here and, like the wackos in aviation circles who keep wanting to do things like reintroduce the bat-wing design to civil aviation, I don't find it useful to pay it much attention. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 23 01:11:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07114 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:11:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles87.castles.com [208.214.165.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07097 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:11:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA01572 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:16:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809230816.BAA01572@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Interesting copyright article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:16:44 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98sep/copy.htm -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 23 06:12:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22745 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA22726 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zLoh3-0002QX-00; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:10:53 +0200 Message-ID: <19980923151053.B9294@cityip.co.za> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:10:53 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , Mike Smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Debugging, Linux style Mail-Followup-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199809221831.LAA00358@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpemt32701=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Tue=2C_Sep_22=2C_1998_at_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?11:05:18PM_+0200?= X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA22737 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 at 23:05 SAT, Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > The term "shotgun debugging" comes to mind. Out of curiosity, what would be a valid procedure to follow in order to debug that user's problem? (Also: I've heard that certain versions of the Virge cause lockups when used with certain PII chipsets, but that might be hearsay.) -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 23 11:39:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18939 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18883 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:38:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (49607@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id UAA21114; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:38:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA08776; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:38:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 20:38:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Chris Dillon cc: Marius Bendiksen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recent spamming of the lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That depends on the volume; at a rate of 50 subscriptions pr week, no sweat, at a rate of 5000 subscriptions pr week, fetch a bucket. :) --- Marius Bendiksen, IT-trainee, ScanCall AS > Who would be doing the reviewing? Are you volunteering? :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 23 13:45:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12122 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:45:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12081 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:45:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03869; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199809232049.NAA03869@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Johann Visagie cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Debugging, Linux style In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:10:53 +0200." <19980923151053.B9294@cityip.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:49:02 -0700 From: Mike Smith Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA12093 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 at 23:05 SAT, Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > > > The term "shotgun debugging" comes to mind. > > Out of curiosity, what would be a valid procedure to follow in order to debug > that user's problem? A 1:1 dialog with the user, involving the replacement of various hardware components, extraction of more debugging information, etc. > (Also: I've heard that certain versions of the Virge cause lockups when used > with certain PII chipsets, but that might be hearsay.) I have personally witnessed fatal interactions between the ViRGE VX and DX chips and the 440FX PCI implementation. I have a 4M DX going cheap if someone is game. 8( -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 24 05:51:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23614 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA23597 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:51:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13369; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Andre Oppermann cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/3.0-19980923-BETA/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:49:15 +0200." <360A3FCB.9FBEF216@pipeline.ch> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:52:12 -0700 Message-ID: <13365.906641532@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You haven't answered my question, is there going to be an separate > cvs list without the -ports stuff on it? If yes, I'd be proud to be > the first who subscribed... That's up to the postmaster - I don't know, I don't manage the lists. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 24 05:55:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24139 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA24117 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 05:55:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 3543 invoked from network); 24 Sep 1998 12:53:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.6) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 24 Sep 1998 12:53:36 -0000 Message-ID: <360A4132.8553DA06@pipeline.ch> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:55:14 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/3.0-19980923-BETA/ References: <13365.906641532@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > You haven't answered my question, is there going to be an separate > > cvs list without the -ports stuff on it? If yes, I'd be proud to be > > the first who subscribed... > > That's up to the postmaster - I don't know, I don't manage the > lists. :) I see... jmb, are you listening? Many, many thanks in advance! -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 24 10:16:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04244 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:16:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rembrandt.esys.ca (rembrandt.esys.ca [198.161.92.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04231 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lyndon@esys.ca) Received: from warhol.esys.ca (warhol.esys.ca [198.161.92.20]) by rembrandt.esys.ca (2.0.4/SMS 2.0.4) with ESMTP id LAA04630 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:16:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199809241716.LAA04630@rembrandt.esys.ca> From: Lyndon Nerenberg Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:16:32 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/3.0-19980923-BETA/ In-Reply-To: <199809241423.KAA20077@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> References: <199809241423.KAA20077@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <360A20D4.45A2010C@pipeline.ch> <13015.906638677@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Message-ID: Priority: NORMAL X-Mailer: Simeon for Aix Motif Version Mercury a8 Build (11) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:23:37 -0400 (EDT) Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > > >> That would kill me :( > > You are too easily killed. Time for a +3 armor. ;) > > The Postman hits! The Postman hits! You have new mail. > > (with apologies to Ed Vielmetti) The route-addr hits... Your mailer feels weaker The route-addr hits... ___________ / \ / R I P \ / \ / \ | lyndon | | | | Eaten by a | | chain letter | | on level 1 | | | | 1998 | | | *| * * * | * ______)/\\/\\_//(\\/(/\\)/\\//\\/|_)______ With no apologies to, but fond rememberances of, smail3. --lyndon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 24 19:24:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08516 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from seera.nttlabs.com (seera.nttlabs.com [204.162.36.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08476; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gene@nttlabs.com) Received: from localhost (gene@localhost) by seera.nttlabs.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09163; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:23:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seera.nttlabs.com: gene owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:23:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: Alex cc: Bill Paul , Nate Williams , FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , mark@grondar.za, jlemon@americantv.com Subject: Re: Security and other facilities at WC CDROM - the plan. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Took the liberty to redirect this to -chat...) On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Alex wrote: | Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:29:17 -0700 (PDT) | From: Alex | To: Bill Paul | Cc: Nate Williams , committers@FreeBSD.ORG, mark@grondar.za, jlemon@americantv.com | Subject: Re: Security and other facilities at WC CDROM - the plan. | | On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Bill Paul wrote: | [..] | > Of course, one limitation is that if you use up all your one time | > passwords before you return home, you'll be stuck unless you can find | > an s/key key generator program somewhere. | | Nah, I'm sure with the "magic" of GNU-Win32, you could compile key(1) as a | Windows binary, stuff that on a web site somewhere and grab it whenever | you're on a strange Windows box. Sure beats actually carrying around your | passwords. Well, if you really don't trust the Win95 machine, it is not a good idea to give your secret password even to your home-grown program running on it. It is said that there are several Win95 programs that hide themselves and capture *all* keystrokes from the keyboard into a secret file. :-p | | > And somebody could steal your wallet and your password sheet. :) | | - alex | Eugene To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 25 00:26:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15635 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15630 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:26:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11781; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:32:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199809250732.RAA11781@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: 19980921-BETA: more comments In-Reply-To: <199809250642.XAA15088@usr01.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Sep 25, 98 06:42:32 am" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:32:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > There isn't an ELF version of the Motif libs yet. > > > > Very soon now... > > Since it's no longer available, the cat isn't there in the bag anyway... > > For a while, it was possible to download a full ELF CDE from > sun.com that, given an ELF FreeBSD, would give you a real Motif > for FreeBSD. What about the non-commercial Solaris/x86 licence for the cost of the media and shipping? I've had mine for a couple of weeks now and that's just enough time to get it to boot. Now I know why people call it Slowaris. And HotJava masquerading as a document reader... blech. No compiler, how nice. RCS, nope. But yes, it has ELF CDE. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 25 08:48:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19813 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:48:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19806; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:48:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hvergelmir.ifi.uio.no (2602@hvergelmir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.129]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id RAA03091; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:47:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hvergelmir.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:47:55 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: shouting in a void? References: <19980923165536.46323@futuresouth.com> <199809240115.SAA17858@usr07.primenet.com> <19980923212108.07453@futuresouth.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 25 Sep 1998 17:47:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller"'s message of "Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:21:08 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id IAA19809 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > Besides, don't you think Jordan will go faster if we get him a facelift? Yeah, I think approaching Jordan with a scalpel in hand is a good way to make him run very, very fast. Come to think of it, I'd react the same way myself... DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 25 10:18:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03852 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:18:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.scancall.no (www.scancall.no [195.139.183.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA03842 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Marius.Bendiksen@scancall.no) Received: from super2.langesund.scancall.no [195.139.183.29] by www with smtp id INKTAPXJ; Fri, 25 Sep 98 17:17:55 GMT (PowerWeb version 4.04r6) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980925191301.00921700@mail.scancall.no> X-Sender: Marius@mail.scancall.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:13:01 +0200 To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) From: Marius Bendiksen Subject: Re: shouting in a void? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <"Matthew D. Fuller"'s message of "Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:21:08 -0500"> <19980923165536.46323@futuresouth.com> <199809240115.SAA17858@usr07.primenet.com> <19980923212108.07453@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Yeah, I think approaching Jordan with a scalpel in hand is a good way >to make him run very, very fast. Come to think of it, I'd react the >same way myself... Wimp ;) However, if people had approached me with a pair of scissors, I'd probably run real fast. :) - Marius, which has spent long years to get long hair To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 25 18:45:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01227 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:45:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01212 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23540 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:45:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:45:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: URL Based Filtering on FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sigh. Looks like Missouri is going to require that all K12 schools eventually implement "web-filtering" sometime in the near future. At the moment we have a grant, with not much time left to use it, that will let us buy what we need to do this. I was _really really_ hoping that I could find something that would work with FreeBSD (or BSDi, or Linux, or Solaris/x86, but PLEASE for the love of god don't make me use NT!). I can't remember if you can do URL based filtering in Squid or not.. If so, maybe if I could get a (maintained) plaintext version of "bad" sites I could hack it into Squid. :-) I couldn't think of any other lists I could post this to... freebsd-isp maybe... but I won't Cc: it. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 25 18:50:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02164 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02155 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:50:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02947; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199809260155.SAA02947@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Chris Dillon cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URL Based Filtering on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:45:43 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:55:52 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Sigh. Looks like Missouri is going to require that all K12 schools > eventually implement "web-filtering" sometime in the near future. At > the moment we have a grant, with not much time left to use it, that will > let us buy what we need to do this. I was _really really_ hoping that I > could find something that would work with FreeBSD (or BSDi, or Linux, or > Solaris/x86, but PLEASE for the love of god don't make me use NT!). I > can't remember if you can do URL based filtering in Squid or not.. If > so, maybe if I could get a (maintained) plaintext version of "bad" sites > I could hack it into Squid. :-) URL filtering is ineffective; there are trivial ways around it. If you want to/have to go with this, you'll want to put up firewall machines and IP blacklists. This is something akin to trying to keep back the tide, but it's a deployable solutiuon based on free tools. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 25 22:58:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23992 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:58:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23952 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA24191; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:58:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:58:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URL Based Filtering on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199809260155.SAA02947@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > Sigh. Looks like Missouri is going to require that all K12 schools > > eventually implement "web-filtering" sometime in the near future. At > > the moment we have a grant, with not much time left to use it, that will > > let us buy what we need to do this. I was _really really_ hoping that I > > could find something that would work with FreeBSD (or BSDi, or Linux, or > > Solaris/x86, but PLEASE for the love of god don't make me use NT!). I > > can't remember if you can do URL based filtering in Squid or not.. If > > so, maybe if I could get a (maintained) plaintext version of "bad" sites > > I could hack it into Squid. :-) > > URL filtering is ineffective; there are trivial ways around it. If you > want to/have to go with this, you'll want to put up firewall machines > and IP blacklists. Wether it is or not is irrelevant, unfortunately. If they say we gotta have it, well, we gotta have it. :-( If, however, they do not specify exactly what type of filtering we need, the IP blacklisting you mention may just be the best way to go about this. Unfortunately, that can create one humungous blacklist and a big burden on the firewall (esp. when one site has 50 servers to keep up with the load.. You know they have to be running NT to need that many ). If I give the job of filtering to the proxy itself, based on either IP-address/domain-name _or_ URL, then that would be just as effective, wouldn't it? Then the firewall can pass all non-http data without any overhead. All http traffic will be blocked at the firewall, of course, except from the proxy. > This is something akin to trying to keep back the tide, but it's a > deployable solutiuon based on free tools. I may have found what I was looking for, though... Someone packaged up some redirector stuff for Squid that would let me stick a list of sites somewhere and Squid would redirect them to a page telling them they've been naughty. The only problem at that point is coming up with a maintained list of the sites. > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 25 23:13:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25077 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:13:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles128.castles.com [208.214.165.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25049 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:13:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00561; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:18:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809260618.XAA00561@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Chris Dillon cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URL Based Filtering on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:58:10 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:18:05 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > URL filtering is ineffective; there are trivial ways around it. If you > > want to/have to go with this, you'll want to put up firewall machines > > and IP blacklists. > > Wether it is or not is irrelevant, unfortunately. If they say we gotta > have it, well, we gotta have it. :-( You need to be making it clear that what they're saying can't be done. > > This is something akin to trying to keep back the tide, but it's a > > deployable solutiuon based on free tools. > > I may have found what I was looking for, though... Someone packaged up > some redirector stuff for Squid that would let me stick a list of sites > somewhere and Squid would redirect them to a page telling them they've > been naughty. The only problem at that point is coming up with a > maintained list of the sites. They expect you to proactively pursue this list as well? How do they propose to avoid the blacklist being used to promote a politicial agenda? I realise this is probably too little too late, but http://www.peacefire.org is probably a good place to be looking at. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 25 23:43:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28063 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28052 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA24324; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 01:43:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 01:43:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URL Based Filtering on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199809260618.XAA00561@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > URL filtering is ineffective; there are trivial ways around it. If you > > > want to/have to go with this, you'll want to put up firewall machines > > > and IP blacklists. > > > > Wether it is or not is irrelevant, unfortunately. If they say we gotta > > have it, well, we gotta have it. :-( > > You need to be making it clear that what they're saying can't be done. I may have to prove this to them first. I'll worry about that if it comes to it, though. :-) > > > This is something akin to trying to keep back the tide, but it's a > > > deployable solutiuon based on free tools. > > > > I may have found what I was looking for, though... Someone packaged up > > some redirector stuff for Squid that would let me stick a list of sites > > somewhere and Squid would redirect them to a page telling them they've > > been naughty. The only problem at that point is coming up with a > > maintained list of the sites. > > They expect you to proactively pursue this list as well? How do they > propose to avoid the blacklist being used to promote a politicial > agenda? Erm, dunno. It just makes sense to update it at least once in a blue moon.. Sites appear/move/disappear every day, ya know. > I realise this is probably too little too late, but > http://www.peacefire.org is probably a good place to be looking at. Aaah, great site! Definately gonna have to show the boss this one. All the little gory details I find out about on Monday, though. All I know at the moment is "We need to do Internet filtering", and "We have a grant to do it, but we're running out of time... Details on Monday." I just figured I'd try and get a head start and see what was available for FreeBSD before I said "Yeah, we can do it with what we've got". > > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 26 00:13:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01848 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:13:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles128.castles.com [208.214.165.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01842 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:12:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00872; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:18:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809260718.AAA00872@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Chris Dillon cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: URL Based Filtering on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Sep 1998 01:43:19 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:18:14 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > All the little gory details I find out about on Monday, though. All I > know at the moment is "We need to do Internet filtering", and "We have a > grant to do it, but we're running out of time... Details on Monday." I > just figured I'd try and get a head start and see what was available for > FreeBSD before I said "Yeah, we can do it with what we've got". You can do it, sure. The problem is that it's not useful, and you've got an uphill battle to make this clear before the project becomes a total monster. If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking very seriously at quitting if I thought I couldn't turn it around. 8( -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 26 06:02:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00185 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 06:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00176 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 06:02:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id XAA05021; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:02:43 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 23:02:43 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: gui design Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm descended into the scary world of xwindows programming and am looking for some help. :) I seem to recall last year there was a heated debate on -chat regarding gui design, flaws/etc of various products out there. I'm hoping some of the battle-scared survivors are still around and able to point me towards any (preferably online) documentation/papers on how to design *good* graphic user interfaces. Any tips, pointers etc would be much appreciated. Cheers, Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 26 16:28:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02727 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:28:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.tol.it (mail.tin.it [194.243.154.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02714 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 16:27:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@tin.it) Received: from dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (a-bu2-7.tin.it [212.216.1.6]) by mail.tol.it (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA03992 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 01:27:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 1421 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Sep 1998 23:21:35 -0000 Message-ID: <19980927012135.B1360@tin.it> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 01:21:35 +0200 From: Marco Molteni To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gui design References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Sat, Sep 26, 1998 at 11:02:43PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 26 Sep 1998, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > I'm descended into the scary world of xwindows programming and am > looking for some help. :) > > I seem to recall last year there was a heated debate on -chat regarding > gui design, flaws/etc of various products out there. I'm hoping some > of the battle-scared survivors are still around and able to point me > towards any (preferably online) documentation/papers on how to design > *good* graphic user interfaces. I cannot help for the design, but I have some pointers for the toolkits you could use. I personally used and liked very much the Qt toolkit (http://www.troll.no), which is a C++ library. Another option could be Tcl/Tk, maybe with a wrapper generator like SWIG (sorry, I don't remember the URL). Marco -- "Hi, I have a Compaq machine running Windows 95. How do I install FreeBSD?" "I'm sorry, this is device driver testing: brain implants are two doors down on the right". (Bill Paul, on the freebsd-net mailing list) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 26 17:25:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10143 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:25:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10132; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199809270025.RAA10132@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/3.0-19980923-BETA/ In-Reply-To: <360A4132.8553DA06@pipeline.ch> from Andre Oppermann at "Sep 24, 98 02:55:14 pm" To: oppermann@pipeline.ch (Andre Oppermann) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andre Oppermann wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > You haven't answered my question, is there going to be an separate > > > cvs list without the -ports stuff on it? If yes, I'd be proud to be > > > the first who subscribed... > > > > That's up to the postmaster - I don't know, I don't manage the > > lists. :) > > I see... jmb, are you listening? > > Many, many thanks in advance! well, the lists already exist. we only need to remove the change to the cvs scripts that sends messages to cvs-all only, skipping all the cvs-xxxx lists, such as cvs-ports. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 26 17:35:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11266 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:35:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11252; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199809270035.RAA11252@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/3.0-19980923-BETA/ In-Reply-To: <199809241423.KAA20077@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> from Garrett Wollman at "Sep 24, 98 10:23:37 am" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > > >> That would kill me :( > > You are too easily killed. Time for a +3 armor. ;) > > The Postman hits! The Postman hits! You have new mail. > > (with apologies to Ed Vielmetti) The Postman always hits twice jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message