Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 19:51:19 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" <dcs@newsguy.com> To: Darryl Okahata <darrylo@sr.hp.com> Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Message-ID: <37F9D827.93D22E39@newsguy.com> References: <199910050015.RAA29289@mina.sr.hp.com>
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Darryl Okahata wrote: > > > There are things one can do to improve their chances of seeing the > > message answered. For example: > > ... excellent advice, which everyone should follow. > > ... however, how the H*LL are the clueless newbie hordes supposed > to know or learn this? As much as we'd like them to be, they're not > exactly born with this knowledge, and I somehow doubt there's an "XXX > for Dummies" book that covers this. First, a newbie is supposed to be polite *always*. He is supposed to be BORN knowing that, and, failing that, have that knowledge hammered into his head continuously by his parents until he knows it by heart. Second, The clueless newbie hordes are not supposed to post to -hackers. And they are supposed to infer that from the list charter. Failing that, one is never supposed to open his mouth before figuring out whether it's appropriate or not, in any time or place in life. Finally, the clueless newbie hordes, failing to do any of the above, might just *ask*. Why the hell does the clueless newbie hordes expects any answer when posting a message to a list without reading the list charter and without a single clue of how the list works is beyond me. > In the same way, there are "different mores and customs" in > newsgroups and mailing lists. To us, things like "make the messages > easy to read", "use quoting", etc. are obvious, but how the H*LL are > newbies supposed to know this? I see very few people trying to politely > correct newbies, but many people "going postal" after one-too-many > newbie questions. Newbies are f*cking supposed to go to freebsd-newbies and freebsd-questions, were they can be as f*cking clueless as they want. They are *not* supposed to come to -hackers. If they are not happy with how things works in -hackers, one more reason for them to go away. There is people trying to achieve things here in -hackers, and clueless noise only detracts from that. Of course, that's no reason to be impolite to these newbies. I'm just explaining that they have no place here in this list, and that's that. It's not a newbies list. Now, if the newbie in question keeps inflicting his cluelessness upon us, he *will* get hammered back. That just happens when you keep annoying people. > > Example of people wanting someone else to do their homework: > > > > "I noticed FreeBSD's malloc() does not return an error when it > > allocates more memory than available. Can't you do [options]?" > > While I'm sure you believe that all people who post questions like > this, want others to do their homework for them, I don't see that. > > From that one "message", I can't tell the poster's motives or > thought processes. I just see someone asking a question. Then let's explain it to you. 1) "Can't *YOU* ...". No, we can't. But if you send us the patches, we'll be glad to look at it. 2) "Can't you do [options]?" You didn't spent a single hour researching the subject, did you? Because if you did, you wouldn't be discussing the general solutions, you would be discussing possible implementations, and what problems you found while examine the source code. > Possible, correct response(s) to such a question include: > > * Ignore it. If you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all. I recall you complaining about being ignored three times. Now, let me tell you, a clueless message is *NOISE*. Noise bothers. Noise gets in the way. So it is *not* ok for people to post anything it comes to their mind, and expect it to just get ignored if it turns out to be noise. > * Answer: > > "No, doing so is non-trivial. The reasons for this have been > mentioned in numerous other postings, and so, for more > information, please read the XXX mailing list archives on YYY. > Try searchiing for `ZZZ'." > > If you do answer, do *NOT* use emotionally-loaded words, like "lazy" or > "clueless". Flamefests lie that way. Why don't you just try searching for the previous instances of the thread I mentioned, and see what *really* happens for yourself? Hint: that answer above is never the end. > > This is a recurring thread, you can look up on the archives to read > > how it goes. As I said. > And how is the newbie supposed to know this, if no one tells them? A newbie is supposed to *SEARCH* the list archives before posting. I'm pretty sure this is also mentioned in the lists charters. But, alas, you miss the point. I was just giving an example of people wanting their work done for them. I ask *YOU*, not a generic person, to look it up so *YOU* can see for yourself this kind of thing at work. > Also, telling them via insults and the like is, well, rude. For all the flame wars that keep recurring on -hackers, the amount of actual insults is quite low. Harshness, on the other hand, is plentyful. Alas, that is in the eye of the beholder. You'll see lots of threads with very harsh messages in which nobody seems to be minding it. It's just that we use the list to exchange technical content, and, when conveying technical content, politeness is not a requisite. > > Basically, the person doesn't like the present > > behavior, and would like to have an alternative (or have it changed > > completely). > > This is, believe it or not, a reasonable > question/belief/expectation. If it's really asked that commonly, why > not turn it into a FAQ? That's actually a good idea. Tell you what, you read the previous threads and prepare a good FAQ entry in docbook, send me the patches and I'll commit it. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Rule 69: Do unto other's code as you'd have it done unto yours To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
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