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Date:      Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:53:43 -0700
From:      "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com>
To:        "Szilveszter Adam" <sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>, <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject:   RE: BSD User Group Tips
Message-ID:  <007301c0f589$71a5f480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>
In-Reply-To: <20010615105306.E1744@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>

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Ted Mittelstaedt                      tedm@toybox.placo.com
Author of:          The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide
Book website:         http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com


>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
>[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Szilveszter Adam
>Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:53 AM
>To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
>Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips
>
>
>Hello,
>
>
>I think that you very much got a point here... but this is a two-sided
>fact: While it is undoubtedly a good thing that BSD admins are
>knowledgeable and don't require others to spoon-feed them, this "research
>for yourself and get over it" attitude also prevents IMHO that quality docs
>get written by those who really understand the issues... and this is not
>necessarily good.

:-)  Now we are jumping from user groups to docs?

>While on Linux every little achievement one makes is
>cause to write up a HOWTO (albeit in very varying styles and degree of
>professionalism, sometimes you have the feeling that the guy did not
>actually understand why he was doing things but merely writes: This is what
>worked for me, if it does for you great), in BSD land we stick to quality.
>This is good because when docs actually get written, they are high quality.
>But there are not many people who could do this for most BSD topics. This
>in turn means that when you try to "research" for yourself next time, you
>are often left with "common knowledge" on mailing lists, that are often not
>even written down anywhere save for some random mail message... not exactly
>productive.
>

But, then there's the wealth of Linux docs that you can use too since often
the same things apply.

>In my opinion, two things need to be done here:
>
>- Instead of expecting (as it is tacitly today) that "the guys at the Doc
>  Project" know every topic and write all the good docs by themselves,
>  everybody should write docs (and not just man pages although that is a
>  must) for the areas he/she is knowledgeable in.
>
>- Instead of maintaining a sctrict divine between those "in" the project
>  and those "out", we should encourage (as opposed to merely tolerate)
>  new talent who work outside of the official channels (say on various
>  support web sites) so that we have a more steady supply of new
>  contributors, esp because the "old hands" tend to be soaked up in
>  (undoubtedly important) technical discussions instead of writing.
>

Nobody that's read much of my stuff would think that I'm a proponent of
putting all docs on the "official" website or support channels.

But, let me say one thing - there are a great many people that run out there
and put docs up on websites, then they have very little commitment to
keeping them available.

I can't count the number of times I've seen references to some interesting
project someone was experimenting with under FreeBSD to a URL like
http://someisp.com/~someuser only to go there and find the user has
decided to move from that ISP and go elsewhere, and their research is now
lost because the old URL has choked the caches of all search engines on the
Internet.  Search engines rarely seem to remove bad links anymore.

I have come to believe now that those wanting to write docs and howtos and
such should NEVER be encouraged to publish them on their own websites
unless they register an honest-to-God domain name and commit to maintaining
it
for a minimal period of at least 5 years from date of last modification,
preferable 10 years, unless they make provisions to transfer the domain to
another FreeBSD support site or to the offical site.

In my opinion it's irresponsible to the extreme to create a support website
and get people using it then fold it without warning and without
transferring
the documentation on it elsewhere, with a forward to that place.

It's also very irresponsible to build these "lists of links" then let them
go stale and half of them not work anymore.  That also stuffs up search
engines
and makes finding information much more difficult.

>Would like to note also that while it may be not the most important for BSD
>user groups to enjoy big gatherings, the community aspect is very much
>alive: the mailing list traffic, the very existence of freebsd-chat@ all
>prove this point. It is not unusual for people with a hobby to pursue it
>for both the object of it (eg software) and for socializing.

I made this point as well - however I think that for maybe 50% of FreeBSD
subscribers here that they have moved beyond hobby and are using FreeBSD
professionally.

>Reading through the threads recently about why the BSD's public profile
>isn't as high as it could be, I think that this "splendid isolation" may be
>a reason not only because nobody is going to know what you have
>unless you tell
>it and show it, but also because many perceive this exclusive behaviour as
>elitist and condescending along the lines of: We are the best and we know
>it but for most of you guys we are just too good.

While I'll agree that there's some people that have taken the "splendid
isolation" idea as condescending, I don't feel that this is fair since I
don't feel there is really any official or even organized idea of "our
shit don't stink"  I think the real issue is that BSD tends to attract
people
that don't go in for the group thing, Linux does, so naturally after a long
time the Linux group is going to be stuffed with people that start yapping
anytime the least little public thing starts happening.  However, no one can
be
responsible for how other people misinterpret their behavior, it's not
our fault if people choose to percieve BSD users as condescending.

BSD is all about freedom.  I'll give you the freedom to jump to the
conclusion
that I'm condescending if you choose to do this.  The Linux people don't
give you that freedom - they insist that you know exactly how they feel
whether you want to or not.

>So, instead of trying to
>define the BSD way by fighting others and expanding on differences of
>opinion, we should focus on bringing what we have out to the world.

Um, what is this _we_ business?  Where is the _I_ in your statement?

>Not
>keeping it for ourselves in dark rooms in lone hacking nights and expecting
>that people find it and somehow get it from us and if they fail to find us
>denouncing them in talkback columns as clueless if they prefer to write
>about what's out there. We need stories that involve BSD, success stories,
>technical papers, executive reports, and we have to give the feeling to
>people who happen to check in that "yes you are important" and "yes, we
>will look into that" (and then do as promised).

There is no way that we could ever be as good as the Linux folks in doing
the petting thing.  The newbies that must have constant petting are going
to gravitate to Linux because that is what they do over there.

It really isn't my or anyone else's job to validate a newbies existence and
give them self-confidence by telling them that they are important.  If they
are a human being they ARE important, and if they haven't learned that by
the time they walk in wanting to learn about BSD then they shouldn't be
there.

Our job is to tell the newbies that "yes, your INTEREST in FreeBSD is
important"
because it is.  Our job is also to tell them "Yes, YOU can look into it for
yourself because it's Open Source.  If they need life-validation they need
to get
themselves a Significant Other.



Ted Mittelstaedt                      tedm@toybox.placo.com
Author of:          The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide
Book website:         http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com

 Even stories like "We used
>FreeBSD yesterday night at a party to serve the music and it kept ticking
>the whole night without missing a beat" count since people may ask what the
>hell that BSD thing is. IMHO, this is the way that would be in-keeping with
>the BSD way (focus on the important stuff).
>


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