From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 20 08:21:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2990016A4CE for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:21:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prometheus.the-keatings.com (prometheus.the-keatings.com [216.88.102.235]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E1543D5C for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:21:24 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from mark@the-keatings.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.the-keatings.com [127.0.0.1]) by prometheus.the-keatings.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AAD7D5AE1; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:21:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from prometheus.the-keatings.com ([127.0.0.1])port 10024) with ESMTP id 22389-04; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:21:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from hades.the-keatings.com (hades.the-keatings.com [216.88.102.236]) by prometheus.the-keatings.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB1A9D5ABE; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:21:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from MERCURY [216.88.102.239] by hades.the-keatings.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.12) id A70E6090058; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:40:46 -0600 From: "Mark Keating" To: "'Tobias Weingartner'" , "'Sean Hafeez'" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 02:21:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <28235.1111290864@natasha.tepid.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.181 Thread-Index: AcUtIcTeGNkPuXrZR9qu48bxFJNEJgAAO8Dg Message-Id: <200503200240171.SM01132@MERCURY> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at the-keatings.com cc: misc@cvs.openbsd.org cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: aac support X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:21:26 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-misc@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-misc@openbsd.org] > On Behalf Of Tobias Weingartner > Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:54 PM > To: Sean Hafeez > Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; misc@cvs.openbsd.org; > weingart@tepid.org > Subject: Re: aac support > > On Saturday, March 19, Sean Hafeez wrote: > > > > There has got to be a better way to work with the vendors > in order to > > get the support we need. It just seem to me that the "screw > you guys, > > I am going home" stuff just does not work. > > Other approaches have been tried. Extensively, and for a long time. > If you know of an approach that works, please demonstrate. > At this point, I believe that the community would welcome > someone that is going to step up, and have adaptec supply the > documentation because they negotiated it out of them. Words > here are cheap... but at the current time, they are the only > thing we really have left. The voice of the community. > > > > The vendors need a business > > case in order to do things - they are in business to make > money and I > > can agree with that. > > They have a business case. More than one. 1800+ cards is > not a business case? The points I brought up are not a > business case? The bad press and such are not a business > case? Give me a break. > > > --Toby. > I work for one of these vendors. I know the release of documentation on one of the RAID controllers this company shipped for several years was not based on logic, let alone a $ amount. The decision was left to a single manager who waffled back and forth about whether the information should be released. The engineer who was pushing for the docs to be available eventually published them on a web site, indicating his company email address as a point of contact. It was a gutsy, yet arbitrary decision on his part that led to the opening of docs. After the release of the docs, the company started publishing their 'friedliness' to OSS. My experience tells me the only way to get the attention of people in a large company like Adaptec is to take drastic measures. If this means emailing people who can affect change until they are sufficiently annoyed to make a decision one way or another, so be it. It is most likely one of the few methods that will work. There is most likely a single person who will make the decision and it may boil down to whether they are having a good day or not. If their response is 'no', it will be stated that this is due to 'contractual obligations', 'intellectual property', 'on the advice of our lawyers..' or some other rubbish. As a user of OpenBSD, I am glad to see this stance taken (again). The people I admire in life are the people that stand up for their principles and are true to themselves and their beliefs. The people I despise are those that gladly sacrifice their stated beliefs to increase their wealth or comfort. OpenBSD does not support all of the hw I use. This is due to some of the hw being 'closed'. Some of it is not supported because the developers have not had enough interest in writing the driver. I did what I could by providing hw to some of the developers in the hope that it will be supported one day. Some of this hw is made by the company I work for, but it had to be provided out of my pocket because the company is too short sighted to see the benefit of providing hw to the OpenBSD team. They do freely use OpenSSH in a number of products however... It is unpopular these days to speak directly on issues. In my lowly opinion, Theo can be abrasive at times and I do not always agree with him. He seems to be morally and intellectually honest, and this is rare. The operating system he and the rest of the developers have given to us is true to their stated goals and has served me very well. For all of these reasons, I stand behind the OpenBSD team and will add Adaptec to the list of vendors I will not use or recommend (Intel, Broadcom, etc). mark