From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Mar 17 23:55:04 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F82E7A5 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:55:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from nm41.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm41.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [216.109.114.57]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1E1FB88 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [66.196.81.174] by nm41.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2014 23:55:01 -0000 Received: from [98.139.213.14] by tm20.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2014 23:55:01 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Mar 2014 23:55:01 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1395100501; bh=lVseqBw0JM7oM57MnqkWvlYqXT+N23N+G9cgfIPs0CM=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:X-Rocket-Received:References:Mime-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:Cc:X-Mailer:From:Subject:Date:To; b=Aj7nDRv93d60midCaBftqyIlqI1LEtlW3wYUYJ8S4P8y63wg9j+UHynpQ8oRbM5xfq3hWuKr7yeZh7m/3d4mxCYmmvlJInIdRNOCvoR1cpXHToH2RpEXpiN7NavrCWrVoUGFy/Gl2D06Vpz+kCueSQPu1CNaI9jodCKkFlDTe/s= X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 352228.14323.bm@smtp114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: Tyx9PFcVM1nWB4N.rSQgVtn6H1xWkBwjydxdDxfft_cTGC7 iXMt0_kFkDa2wGdXtRGGv9oS42QPuoDUaSjWIiPSQiai_qgkp_MYDFlnUxI_ 8i1gBX2OSHO2ximrSuG.485LulEE6Yp0L7wGMw3OfCKFrdG_F95g65U8Ruzr YXyZ2nd7dMZo5FqlfAIW0UAXhJPwVn7J4yHmSKRtbxwP3DBXGPLYq_zse5uw NZXz8biyapZ10AJHDlB1Q3cAYH5P4S7Rz8rjFxAn4Cju.bOJ0jAf26F3u0hV PpYRWJOdLykI2.1PurARdpx9uRpChHZGAV_Z_OAu9l7WR6PGRtN.m8MSY0LQ FUUuoZy5E9Zx9YP4znaYF.EDPxDSB9qa_NP3yq_ccjhZ7rgTmsuIsm_h80gN 8eyYd5GOKhRIb3lVFR53IxK.s5v.35sCiT_cjza077b95vN2PHjDe8mGMx5q oFp6HHpRddjq4KClVTbmmFcupQbmpguNFpfFwM1v6DcOLxHthpP8fIYblH2a g2brnr_z.lgWwunNeC4f3 X-Yahoo-SMTP: LAFNfTaswBDguI7meB90l2l3wOU- X-Rocket-Received: from [10.147.101.71] (free7by@117.136.24.130 with xymcookie [106.10.149.123]) by smtp114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Mar 2014 16:55:01 -0700 PDT References: <20140317103830.53c42ade@X220.alogt.com> <611B8DE5-F593-4574-96AB-0965CA7EDF33@yahoo.com> <5326D093.90308@yahoo.com> <39562806-80F4-4D4C-BAFD-20DCB537B303@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (11D169) From: by Subject: Re: Something related to C and C++ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 07:54:50 +0800 To: Johan Bucht Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 23:55:04 -0000 I got no chance to learn in college, cause I will graduate this summer and I= want find a job Unix-related, C-related, in my college, I had not learn muc= h in C and Unix, cause my college use Windows, and not focus on C-related, a= nd for me, I start learning these this year, and I think I prefer read books= just a little everyday, it can make me continuously familiar with these mat= erial which I like work on. I got four books in my hand now: C related, Unix related, FreeBSD related, and C++ related. And I think that the src in FreeBSD base system is a good way to practice C,= like some simple utilities: echo, ls, etc. And FreeBSD got many historical d= ocs in base system, and I think it is a great way to understand FreeBSD or U= nix world more. The only problem is that, I find no passion if I just learn, maybe this will= change after I got a related job. - by > On Mar 18, 2014, at 0:36, Johan Bucht wrote: >=20 > The systems programming class in university was a lot about rewriting > common unix tools from 'cut' to a shell and network programming. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 5:22 PM, by wrote: >>=20 >> By the way, who knows how to improve C skills? Cause I am a newbie, and I= >> am reading the book <> >> But I plan read it a little everyday, so any other methods? >>=20 >> - by >>=20 >>> On Mar 18, 2014, at 0:15, by wrote: >>>=20 >>> I totally agree with you! >>> Actually, now I prefer the domain which is not too low but not too high >> neither, in a word, I think being a system programmer should be cool. >>>=20 >>> - by >>>=20 >>>> On Mar 17, 2014, at 21:22, Johan Bucht wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> As there are different strengths and weaknesses resulting from the >> design decisions chosen for the different languages, learn as many >> different types as you can and experience how they shape solutions to >> problems in different ways and how you reason about them. >>>>=20 >>>> "I have never met anybody who has changed their reasoning first and >> their habits second. You change your habits first." >>>>=20 >>>> The end goal is to solve problems in your domain, having a languages >> that maps perfectly to that domain (or makes it easy to create domain >> specific languages in) will certainly make it easier to read and write th= at >> code. But is it worth creating and maintaining that language for a small >> domain and train people in it? General purpose languages exists because o= f >> this. They might not map perfectly to the domain, but they have familiari= ty >> and cross breeding between users in different domains. >>>> Some languages are really small with little functionality included in >> the standard library, others are huge and contain a lot of seldom used >> functionality. For the small languages you might need to write common >> functionality yourself or find something someone else has written. For >> large languages you get that for free and most users will use what's >> provided. You get a standard way of solving problems, but the tools might= >> not be best of breed or suit your specific use case. >>>>=20 >>>> /Johan >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 11:38 AM, by wrote: >>>>> Yes, you are right, i have some prejudice for C++ before, but now, i >> think i won't, cause if i have not deeply working for some languages, >> technologies, i have no right to judge it, i need more and more practice := ) >>>>> Different fields got different technologies, the only key i think is >> that which field you prefer, and what kind of technology you prefer. >>>>>=20 >>>>> - by >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 2014/3/17 17:14, Johan Bucht wrote: >>>>>> Working in higher level languages like Java, Ruby, Python and C++ >> does have >>>>>> some advantages to C and some disadvantages. There are always trade >> offs >>>>>> and there will always be languages closer to the domain that will be >> more >>>>>> elegant to solve specific problems. >>>>>> If you're mainly doing programming close to the hardware the >> abstractions >>>>>> from those higher level languages doesn't add much value and the >> runtime >>>>>> with garbage collection and more is something you probably need to be= >> able >>>>>> to turn off. >>>>>> It's of course possible to implement a lot of the features in higher >> level >>>>>> languages in lower level ones, but the syntax will not be that >> suitable for >>>>>> it and you need to impose restrictions on yourself instead of the >> language >>>>>> doing it for you. >>>>>> For some tasks C is too high level and Assembler is needed but for >> most of >>>>>> the tasks any language will do and it's a matter of personal taste. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> /Johan >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 3:50 AM, by wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Well, I think C++'s popular has something related to C's popular >> use, but >>>>>>> it contains too much, I prefer simple tool, do one thing, and do it >> well, >>>>>>> no more extras, and build a system with their combinations, at least= >> the >>>>>>> base system. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> - by >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Mar 17, 2014, at 10:38, Erich Dollansky wrote:= >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Mar 2014 10:20:55 +0800 >>>>>>>> by wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> as C++ is C plus 'some' extras, just start with C. When you know C -= >>>>>>>> which you have to know anyway to write C++ programs - you can add >> C++ >>>>>>>> to your knowledge. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Never forget that object orientated programming is much older than >> C++ >>>>>>>> and can be done in most languages. I did my first steps in object >>>>>>>> orientated programming in 8080 assembler without even knowing that >>>>>>>> what I did will be later be known as object orientated programming.= >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> The little programming I still do is all done in C but using some o= f >>>>>>>> the 'addons' of C++. So, all my sources are .cpp files. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Erich >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> At first, I would say, I do not want to lead to a holy war between= >>>>>>>>> programming languages, and I am a newbie in this field, but I am >>>>>>>>> confused about this, so I want get some answers or discusses from >>>>>>>>> here to help me thinking about this. I found that in IT industry, >> C++ >>>>>>>>> has more and more users, I can understand why they do this, C++ ca= n >>>>>>>>> make them build system more easy than C does. okay, I just know a >>>>>>>>> little about C++, but in my feeling, C++ can make you do things in= >> a >>>>>>>>> higher place. Yes, C++ is great, but for me, it is too difficult, >> or >>>>>>>>> I would say, it is too complicated. I got two books in my hand, on= e >>>>>>>>> is <>, another is <>>>>>>>> Language>>. Just consider from the weight : ) You can find >> something. >>>>>>>>> Language>>In the past, GCC use C, but now it turn to C++, and LLVM= >> is >>>>>>>>> Language>>written by C++. Yes I prefer C now, and you may say, you= >>>>>>>>> Language>>have not use these two languages deeply, how could you >>>>>>>>> Language>>judge them? Yes, I know I should not judge them, but as a= >>>>>>>>> Language>>newbie, this is my very feeling, just like a kid first >>>>>>>>> Language>>looking at this world! Simple, but confused. At last, I >> am >>>>>>>>> Language>>not lead to a holy war between programming languages, I >>>>>>>>> Language>>just confused and want some related answers. This is it.= >> : ) >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> - by >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >>>>>>>>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to >>>>>>>>> "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >>>>>>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >>>>>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >>>>>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >>> _______________________________________________ >>> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"=