From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Jan 25 05:37:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7C62341A4 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 05:37:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484Psz2J6Hz476j for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 05:37:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1579930663; x=1582522663; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=OsZS3chHoURgnrRlJuPop0eGtZrdIG03jCcYvN5C3D0=; b=Ez1zTwlgFeeJvXUqaqVfXiRvohcuAGwPBlT+bJE/EKzE+pgnyc7iKzbw4YlJgb4rQIK7CJdlALBjIHIWhjh8bWEXqJikUrIt3kdPwlyOosof5TbLwgB4eWrR+mteHFrobD1CREFR9U0eSFsur87q39gMWAItn91sjywuqtI6Oqk= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC4xMi42ZTAwMDAwMTA4NjlkZC5mcmVlYnNkLXF1ZXN0aW9ucz1mcmVlYnNkLm9yZw== Received: from r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.189.2]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 25 Jan 2020 00:37:41 -0500 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r2.us-east-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Sat, 25 Jan 2020 00:37:39 -0500 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ivE8X-000J6n-Qs; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 05:37:37 +0000 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 05:37:37 +0000 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Ihor Antonov Cc: Polytropon , Michael Sierchio , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Rust in base Message-Id: <20200125053737.5af7fefe1f94404210c9cfb3@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <1678077549.5929.1579910015816.JavaMail.zimbra@antonovs.family> References: <775662956.5865.1579896175788.JavaMail.zimbra@antonovs.family> <20200124221319.d4e7fa438cbb1f30da10af2d@sohara.org> <20200125003136.a1485866.freebsd@edvax.de> <1678077549.5929.1579910015816.JavaMail.zimbra@antonovs.family> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 484Psz2J6Hz476j X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=Ez1zTwlg; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.81 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.966,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; FORGED_SENDER_VERP_SRS(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.973,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; ENVFROM_VERP(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.13)[ip: (-0.34), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.65), asn: 7381(0.39), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.10.freebsd-questions=freebsd.org@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 05:37:44 -0000 On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 23:53:35 +0000 (UTC) Ihor Antonov wrote: > > > > > > > On Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:02:55 +0000 (UTC) Ihor Antonov > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > So there are 2 questions: - technical one: how bootstrapping > > > > > issue can be solved? - what does FreeBSD community think of the > > > > > idea to have Rust in base? > > > > > > > > Some years back a great deal of work was done to remove > > > > perl from the base so adding Rust (or anything else) would be a > > > > step back. An old BSD goal is that base should be just enough to be > > > > self hosting and be BSD (removing the traditional games from the > > > > base took some discussion). > > > > > > > > > > > As a fellow embedded guy, +1 to what Steve says. Even things in the > > > "Base" should probably have package db entries so they can be removed. > > > > > > Target systems don't necessarily need a compiler or a full tool chain. > > > Then we can converge on a consensus set of basic tools that most > > > people will need, with the opportunity to remove them – rather than > > > creating a mini/micro/nano-FreeBSD > > > I just hope it doesn't bring us the "joy" known from Linux land where a > > failed update (in this context: of application software, here: installed > > ports / packages) will render the whole system unusable beyong > > recovery... "even the kernel is a package". ;-) > > > Thanks your for replies, > > I have probably mixed different things into one bag. Base should be as > minimalist / configurable as people need. If you are doing embedded > indeed you don't need toolchain on your target system, all you need is > the binary code that does exactly and only what you need. > > What I meant is probably not "bring rust into base", but more like "allow > Rust(or Oberon, or any other language that fits the purpose) software in > the lower levels of the system", without compromising > flexibility/configuration of the system. And breaking base into smaller > packages would help greatly here. > > > > That is a "longer term goal", but development is heading into the > > direction of making the base OS more modular, and finally abandoning > > freebsd-update in favor of "pkg for base". It would enable FreeBSD to > > become even more suitable for "specialized applications" where you > > intendedly want a minimal or tailored footprint of the OS. > > Polytropon, can you share elaborate on this? Who is doing this? How can > one participate in this effort?https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase A couple of links to get you started: https://wiki.freebsd.org/PkgBase https://wiki.freebsd.org/DevSummit/201905/PackageBase -- Steve O'Hara-Smith