From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Wed Jan 29 21:51:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB3A1F8B26 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:51:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487HHz5sqVz4G3H for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:51:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id c24so790472qtp.5 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:51:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DnBhOyQmo9upzK/D+E/otEc1ddEjfrFNJx2PZLuFlXw=; b=ccMOkfGmLYf2rvE7WWZWqxQNRfx7a2aZw8Yfd9kfJ+t0or8Sr5GQvLzNVPwOMqewcV VWnrWOI2Ofo0tgjULR4p1qDvBC36KL+XetJQGfXjqM0EM2iVFS9qwqNIR/lMQ67PVykz cP6hrZXalOdpNoirAfDGZ2hlrxAgLWndMYMkXWew371r3FJDBr/yHujeCkx1NrSjmGOk aN/gja/4ptuZPflFHFua1xmHQWONz+fMhpA32paQWXC/es6rSEDZUd4wJCR/wmZakObb AH/I+gdL58Xzov5L1bqgTJL9zfxqywu+6aiG2NetgZXbRLGWNuCA+/rWd/Ju4xLuBOcY Ydog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DnBhOyQmo9upzK/D+E/otEc1ddEjfrFNJx2PZLuFlXw=; b=laDVDr00+zJVzqhQGhL0ZE4/C8Pg1VWYZKh+gUyW1gU5syrfE/znTo7gFZehTw92Fg 3PC41EmaYgV7fii+gOsagrfqyRZKb62AX9xwjxqd4jWBuTa0aRhOpYvTgdLn/cbKpC8g MiI+Dx/I4V7Ixt+w7EFswbds205JwIXF+SLZtIgTJwN2HrORSqgV7LSbDrglYjQduo+9 IhlQhn65LFIr0xHfAU3r8SyRZe7mSLI28tNU0OYen/IPbXVWUUC8rUeVnEIgb84pIV/7 CvYdAB21vf4XylzI8XhZvYFmSfESWgafyxL8UoeqmZmASgShPvroWPPXbpC/MK0eiKMt srVA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX7ACMTPj+0n/um8lQUrCL2pboeZTg5hQ58k9BHHkVZn85wyo2K vxnNJS/V6zZVi4ImBdhKYNy+wSdMrU7lKQn+o2MEAs1X X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxiIygw5F2maf6oMQd6z/itAUlO+Ogbq+nWa0I24oRKGTUr1w9fKuAg7P8vuV1IEKQkNPIuMk305xCtqpR5F+0= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:78c:: with SMTP id l12mr1465488qth.187.1580334702355; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:51:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <84926.1580333803@critter.freebsd.dk> <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <202001292142.00TLgV9N066161@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:51:31 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: arm64 as Tier 1 for FreeBSD 13 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-arm , Emmanuel Vadot , Robert Clausecker , freebsd-arch X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 487HHz5sqVz4G3H X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ccMOkfGm; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::833) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.62 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-arch@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.62)[ip: (-9.21), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.03), asn: 15169(-1.78), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:51:44 -0000 On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 2:42 PM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > I have no problem if some want to ignore RPI*, but as Poul says > FreeBSD does so at its own peril. If its a man power thing lets > find it or make it! > There's two issues. One is manpower. There's not too many people that want to hack on it. The second is information: it can be tricky to get from Broadcom which slows down any efforts to make progress. These two issues are interrelated... When it's hard to help out, it's easier to do other things. Ian is a prime example: he's had enough with the crappy docs on what he views as a crappy design so he chooses to spend his time elsewhere. This is his choice, of course. Others have tried to get USB or networking going on RPi4 have run into similar issues and got frustrated and quit out of frustration and inability to get the technical data they need in a form that's useful. So it's easier to work on other ARM and ARM64 platforms where data is available, vendors are more forthcoming and it's easier to get things done w/o all the stress and hassle. It's no different than the bazillion drivers we've written, or not written, over the years based on vendor support (or its lack). So, absent some large FreeBSD user of RPi that can use their business relationships with Raspberry / Broadcom to reduce the friction AND can fund people to improve the port, the situation isn't likely to improve. I sure wish this wasn't the current state of affairs, but sadly it is. Warner