From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Aug 22 19:00:33 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B1610922EA for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:00:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ADD4884DB7 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:00:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.195.99.237]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue003 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0MJoUy-1frSR02FSG-0018Ny; Wed, 22 Aug 2018 21:00:22 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 21:00:21 +0200 From: Polytropon To: doug@safeport.com Cc: doug , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: stable vs releng Message-Id: <20180822210021.80650aa0.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <010327df-876b-dc05-e9ed-130f3e8decb0@ifdnrg.com> <20180822154439.e388b74673a183639554ff5e@sohara.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:sTVq2JgCdwdogh9VMAUa62urhd/V/fwke788SDpHNFJONywQJxI jI3IFnsf4DvFS32ZctBmgxtl77Xdr5sZSApgsFaJw0U2HKvXuGw0b+Q++y5qyVLpf3C8sa+ haWSh4HYP/gugRgSEivn1/J9OXf25KZgO778bD7WsDshlOi5/NmGAwhW9NZhWayOWLVfF1J U1b6A57q8XF9ZZ0CAkt8w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:CGXzn6EcxOg=:3/cwmbqR9i0KOrdwX31r8t 0MatRmc46w3wHtnaCniY391H7YVJB5B5/nVMqSBT2EHsxiajES6AWwH3+9iXdEHLW0Q5TbPcN B/PI0MMVzujZpNSEhAneOoX5Ql4WLLapY9wAYdkh++Ds73/je5lybIo8e1rpUzHbLKFB1yeVa ic7eLpq7ouUOa6mFIoNX5PTzW7kEpdTDuLV+gEqDNtWPatnf4OhtdgZ4TkdNDZKaD1mXm2sJg hoDCuRszkorHfjrr2d7ClXzlp0+suYZWdepMSEn2Lip4tW2W75LQiasH5caT6PnHN5ZTq4Wi4 RxXsRS0bTnelegUWczAtmaLeaPZRhI2LmuJRiu4MVAL9kLDyFSf0baXVQ33xbw23H6JujlReb yKLkIIZTbE5y/kFPrqm46a1U7uQf/Vw4qQjIWvtc4vw8mA7w4Hxp8++WkOeRrXxWG2Dul0Fu0 HOl8658pMeBVvGjp4XBw8YxieaUizTXIUEvWEkvNNo0khFbH0mMdVM2dIcaVZbw/V06fV1RHy HaVDXWPObAdCiM4VynlCy++agfBFSk2vzL8NC+pXOODLbAui0TN55YbAL0YxqUcxsuhS69rwn 7Lkz1hA5Ydu2cI781WIC+buk4zDHBBJOuKgYydro9inVbvMhIFNu2cihct3b/ziNl91qllLxs zVDhYAUaHloeIri1g2lKXDqTeMcPM+ANxksVgyuOc5oWQw45YKBFWHW6bqrNu15JQ3usAQPYl I8zIsKP5lEnF09C+ X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 19:00:33 -0000 On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 13:38:02 -0400 (EDT), doug wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2018, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 09:52:36 +0100 > > Matthew Seaman wrote: > > > >> So no removal of drivers, no > >> changes to ABIs, compatibility for 3rd party kernel modules across all > >> the kernels in the branch etc. Some of that I think we're getting > >> right, other bits we aren't doing so well with. > > > > nVidia > > > I do not understand. If the FreeBSD Desktop support model is a two story > outhouse, XORG has always been on the top floor. At least that was my > understanding. What am I missing? I think the main problem here is the switch from the normal text-oriented console subsystem sc to the graphics-oriented vt, which of course means more demands regarding "addressing the GPU". Additionally, X currently requires (!) the use of vt. So while X brings its own drivers, the OS now also needs to include certain aspects of "programming toward hardware". According to the vt page, there needs to be support for different brands of graphics cards: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Newcons Sure, this is completely out of concern if you just want to use the regular text mode - you switch back to sc (as vt has become the default), and everything works as it did for decades. But you cannot use X in that configuration anymore. That's why development on vt is ongoing, but not complete yet. But it is already more than "good enough" to be included as the default console subsystem, as it works in 99 % of the typical use cases. While you can switch screen sizes in vt (except to the one you want), it lacks certain features that did exist in sc reliably for many years. But when you use X, those are typically not needed, and X requires vt, so... those features won't come back. "Just use X!" is what solves any problems. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...