From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 01:09:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13073 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA13068; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA15134; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605260809.BAA15134@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dima@freebsd.org (Dima Ruban) cc: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adduser program in C In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 25 May 96 20:38:21 -0700. <199605260338.UAA00157@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 01:09:19 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >But I couldn't stay away, when somebody (don't remember his name) >said that perl is perfect replacement for shell/awk/sed scripts. >The idea of his entire letter was "Perl rules! I'd love to see all >unix shell/sed/awk scripts rewritten in perl, because perl is perfect!" I was the person who wrote that letter, and that isn't even remotely what I said. In fact, that is almost the opposite. You have totally misunderstood the subject. The guy said he wanted to re-write the existing adduser program, which is in perl, with one that is in C, because he didn't know perl. I told him that this would be an excellent opportunity to learn perl. I said that The Unix Way is to use lots of different tools, including perl, awk, sh, sed, to do different tasks. I further said that he shouldn't *just* learn perl, but that he should then move on and learn how to combine all these other pieces in sh scripts, and get better at using all these tools together. Perl was just one step. I think this subject really doesn't need to fill this list any longer. Can we drop it? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 01:46:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA14582 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14573 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 01:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA06904; Sun, 26 May 1996 03:46:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 03:46:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Adduser program in C In-Reply-To: <18628.833090095@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 25 May 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > 3. That language be a standard part of the system so we don't need to > bring in something like prolog just to get adduser to compile. :-) So you're cool with assembly right? In that case I'm there! Assembly is the best language to use! *knarf* Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 02:52:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA17351 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 02:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA17342 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 02:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA25115 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:52:41 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA15092 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:52:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA01614 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:45:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605260945.LAA01614@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: unix + asm To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 11:45:00 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Chris J. Layne" at "May 25, 96 11:16:17 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Chris J. Layne wrote: > > Of course, all this raises the question: why do you wanna do this? > Uhh, so I can try ASM on my unix machine, is their something wrong with > that? =) The only thing that's wrong is that you'll only need it in < 1 % of all your time (except you're going to debug and optimize locore.s -- but you might be too late, Poul-Henning already did this recently :). > I just was curious as to what the diffs were between intel asm > and at&t asm. Everything is just ``a bit different''. The operators are in the `right' order, i.e. mov $0, %eax ``move number 0 into register eax'' as opposed to Intel (Microsloth?): mov eax, 0 ``move eax into 0'' ??? :) Many things in the microsloth assemblers are implicit, like operand size, or indirectness of the operand (0 in the above example), and you fairly often need to override the assembler's idea (which is particular fun if you need to override something for both operands). The unix assembler makes more things explicit. Direct values are always prepended with $. Register names start with % (at least for us on the i386), so they don't clash with other names. Operand sizes are appended to the operation name, as in ``movb'', though this is optional (i think) if one of the operands is fixed in its size (%eal). Number notation is C-like (with 0x or 0 prefixes where required), as is string notation (.ascii "This is an entire line\n"). To get C strings, you need .asciz, which appends the \0 byte. Labels are ``static'' implicitly. Global labels need to be declared. Note that the C compiler prepends an underscore to each name, so you need to care for this when interacting with C. ``Local labels'' are simple numbers, and are referenced by their number with an `f` or `b' appended, meaning ``jump forward'' or ``jump backward''. Offset-indirect addressing is expressed as `offset(%register)'. There are more obnoxious variants for the i386 i don't remember right now (like specifying the operand size, so the CPU multiplies the offset). A small example. Store it as foo.s, and pass it to cc along with some C main() that calls it. (.s means ``assembler, don't pipe through cpp'', .S means ``assembler, pipe through cpp''.) # we don't have .rodata in a.out, so put this into .text .text false: .asciz "False" true: .asciz "True" .text .globl _btos # # const char * # btos (int b); # # /* Boolean to string */ # _btos: # standard prologue: create stack frame pushl %ebp movl %esp, %ebp # for demonstration: create local variable, and copy the # function arg to it subl $4, %esp movl 8(%ebp), %eax # i386 needs scratch reg for stack copy movl %eax, -4(%ebp) # 0(%ebp) is the old frame pointer # 4(%ebp) is the return %eip # 8(%ebp) is the first function arg # (leftmost in C notation) # -4(%ebp) is the first local var movl -4(%ebp), %eax testl %eax, %eax jnz 1f movl $false, %eax # %eax is return value jmp 2f 1: movl $true, %eax 2: # function epilogue, clear stack frame leave ret -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 03:18:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18108 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 03:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itesec.hsc.fr (root@itesec.hsc.fr [192.70.106.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA18103 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 03:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tetard.hsc.fr (tetard.hsc.fr [192.70.106.43]) by itesec.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/itesec-1.8) with ESMTP id MAA28902; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:18:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by tetard.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/tetard-uucp-2.8) id MAA08774; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:17:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Philippe Regnauld Message-Id: <199605261017.MAA08774@tetard.hsc.fr> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:17:52 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (hackers) In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at "May 25, 96 11:33:26 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Matthew N. Dodd écrit / writes: > Say, lets try out Python next! I hear thats the greatest thing since > sliced bread! (Actually, the other sysadmin here suggested TK and Python > for an adduser program that he wanted to write. We'll see. *grin*) > Is this noise on the line or what ? :-) I said *Perl* + Tk: trash Python. Okay, the tools I'm thinking about are definitely not going to be standard, as they need perl 5.002 and the Tk extensions. This is 8 Mb+ libs and binaries on the disk. As to what Jordan said, I can only agree with him: the issue here is to have a simple, customizable program to add users. If it offers front-end as well as command line manipulation so much for the better. Perl only got suggested because it's what the original is written in. Also, Ollivier Robert already suggested bringing in his replacement. I'd be more than happy to document it, we'd just need somebody to review it. -- Phil -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Philippe Regnauld |_______Herve Schauer Consultants_______| regnauld@hsc.fr | +-------------------+FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations+-----------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 03:22:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18233 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 03:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itesec.hsc.fr (root@itesec.hsc.fr [192.70.106.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA18227 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 03:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tetard.hsc.fr (tetard.hsc.fr [192.70.106.43]) by itesec.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/itesec-1.8) with ESMTP id MAA28969; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:21:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by tetard.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/tetard-uucp-2.8) id MAA08793; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:21:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: Philippe Regnauld Message-Id: <199605261021.MAA08793@tetard.hsc.fr> Subject: Re: stty -- not To: garya@ics.com (Gary Aitken) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:21:27 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (hackers) In-Reply-To: <31A7E098.78C@ics.com> from Gary Aitken at "May 25, 96 10:39:52 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Aitken écrit / writes: > > Does it make sense to have people submit their current printcap > entries to start a collection? I believe 2.1 comes with a more or less > empty printcap. Which makes me wonder: along with the installation option, would it be possible to have a 'Configure Printer' entry ? It could be as simple as selecting a predefined printcap, and as wicked as having Ghostscript installed along with fonts and apsfilter to make into a 'real' postscript printer (that's what I do -- it fits nicely along with Samba on a local WfWG network -- people think they have Ljet 3P when it's a TI 5000 :-) -- Phil -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Philippe Regnauld |_______Herve Schauer Consultants_______| regnauld@hsc.fr | +-------------------+FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations+-----------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 03:50:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18966 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 03:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA18960 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 03:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from coredump@localhost) by onyx.nervosa.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08137; Sun, 26 May 1996 03:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 03:49:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris J. Layne" To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adduser program in C In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 26 May 1996, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Sat, 25 May 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > 3. That language be a standard part of the system so we don't need to > > bring in something like prolog just to get adduser to compile. :-) > > So you're cool with assembly right? In that case I'm there! Assembly is > the best language to use! *knarf* > > | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Dude, how about this: cat >/usr/sbin/adduser machine code here == Chris Layne ======================================== Nervosa Computing == == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 05:32:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA22409 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 05:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA22404 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 05:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA00567; Sun, 26 May 1996 05:29:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199605261229.FAA00567@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Chris J. Layne" cc: Joerg Wunsch , FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: unix + asm In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 May 1996 23:16:17 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 05:29:32 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sat, 25 May 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > > > > I was wondering where I could find info (preferably the web) on > > > programming Assembly on Unix systems, preferrably FreeBSD on the 80x86 > > > arch. Any info would be appreciated. > > > > Of course, all this raises the question: why do you wanna do this? > > > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > > Uhh, so I can try ASM on my unix machine, is their something wrong with > that? =) I just was curious as to what the diffs were between intel asm > and at&t asm. Hi, There is a gnu info file delineating the difference between at&t asm and gnu's gas. Just browse around in a gnu ftp directory and look around for documentation on gas. You can also learn a lot by just looking at the assembly output which gcc generates. Since, hackers is now flooded with deep philophical questions , I vote for starting a new mailing list: hackers-technical@freeBSD.org 8) Regards, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 07:36:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27186 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 07:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA27172 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 07:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA00219; Sun, 26 May 1996 07:35:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Philippe Regnauld cc: garya@ics.com (Gary Aitken), hackers@freebsd.org (hackers) Subject: Re: stty -- not In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 May 1996 12:21:27 +0200." <199605261021.MAA08793@tetard.hsc.fr> Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 07:35:52 -0700 Message-ID: <217.833121352@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Which makes me wonder: along with the installation option, > would it be possible to have a 'Configure Printer' entry ? > It could be as simple as selecting a predefined printcap, and Sure! However, I don't have any printers on my network and could even claim that I'd never owned one except for the fact that I recently got an HP Laserjet from a friend and stuck it in my closet. :-) This makes me quite unqualified to do printer setup, much less write an automated tool for it. If you'd like to do something like this, in the spirit of the Samba or or anon-ftp setup screens in sysinstall, I'd be happy to incorporate it into the Configuration menu! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 08:11:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA28888 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 08:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA28879 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 08:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA10532; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:10:55 -0400 Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 11:10:55 -0400 From: Charles Green Message-Id: <199605261510.LAA10532@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> In-Reply-To: Ollivier Robert "Re: Adduser program in C" (May 25, 13:54) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Ollivier Robert Subject: Re: Adduser program in C Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A feature I'd like to see added is the ability to detect NIS and put the new account into the NIS database. Ollivier Robert stands accused of saying: } Date: May 25, 13:54 } Subject: Re: Adduser program in C } It seems that Jordan K. Hubbard said: } > Sure, but for now I'd be happy to see a more functional adduser } > replacement - so far, none of the efforts which have set out } > to do this have born any fruit. :( } } I have one (new-account) in Perl that need: } 1. to be documented ; } 2. to be modified to use the one-user/one-group scheme with a switch. } } Except for this two points, it runs fine: } } new-account : Account Creation Program. } Copyright (c) 1993, 94 by Ollivier Robert (roberto@keltia.frmug.fr.net) } Version 1.06.3 on 18/04/95. } } Usage: } new-account [options] login fullname group [group...] } } Options: } -N doesn't execute anything, just show commands, } -m send greeting message to new user, } -s shell specifies the shell to use instead of /sbin/tcsh, } -u uid specifies une user-id to use (default is next free in class), } -a alias specifies the alias to put in /etc/mail/aliases, } -p pwd use that encrypted password, } -q be quiet and do not display messages. } } Configuration file is /usr/local/etc/accountrc. } Group definition file is /usr/local/etc/groupdefs. } } This version is even in Perl4 so one can use it with the standrad FreeBSD } Perl from /usr/bin. } -- } Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr } FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #2: Fri May 10 21:09:14 MET DST 1996 }-- End of excerpt from Ollivier Robert -- Charles Green, PRC Inc. UN*X System Administration 22 Powell Ave. Apt. B UN*X Security & Whitesboro, NY 13492 Programming From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 08:45:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01550 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 08:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01543 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 08:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr14.etinc.com (dialup-usr14.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA06443; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:51:11 -0400 Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 11:51:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199605261551.LAA06443@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Andrew McRae From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: Routers and FreeBSD (let's have a bakeoff) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A McRae writes..... >I presented the old 286 as something I had done, not as a prime >example of current technology :-) >I certainly agree that PC technology can do the job of a small >router; I have done that myself with other Unix workstations, >as well as FreeBSD machines. I have strived to always follow the >John Mashey rule of claims - always back up what you say with >actual, observed evidence, and always disclose the parameters >of the test. I don't doubt that your quoted configuration >works in real life, but it depends on what you call `handle'. >Give me a observed pps on each interface, using mimimum sized packets. >Ethernet can run around 13 or 14 Kpps, and a full duplex T1 will >run around 7200 pps. The industry accepted minimum sized packet >is 64 byte ether, 52 bytes serial (ether - mac header + serial encap). >Can a PC really handle a total of 7200 + 14K + 14K = 35200 pps? >I don't know - it's actually something I can test really easily, >and it would be an interesting exercise for you to send me >a sample config and then I can have a bakeoff in the lab. >BTW this kind of config is very low end. I am much more interested >if you put a couple of Fast Ethernets in and then run a 45 Mbit T3. >*That's* a serious configuration :-) Probably not, but its not the real world, so who cares. The bottom line is in real applications, which is why the pps numbers for routers are so misleading. When you talk about real transfers (like workstations doing real things like FTP downloads and heavy Web access, then you can impress me. You cant impress me with a box thats speced for 100,000 pps (of course thats fully loaded with 20 T1 and 10 ethernet interfaces, which makes the numbers meaningless) but it chokes if you try to filter 512K of flood pings. You clearly want to compare a PC to a 75XX series, an argument which you will invariably win. You are clearly not interested in talking about the vulnerability of your lower end products, a subject which is of much more interest to a whopping majority of the marketplace. Just for fun though, whats the mininum cost for a unit with two Fast Ethernets and a dual T1 and enough memory (at least 32 meg) to be multi-homed running BGP4? PC cost is under $2500. and it does quite nicely. > >If people are interested, I will publish the results. >Again, full disclosure of the environment is important. > >>If you're really the hardware guru you say then you know how a >>25XX dual ethernet fares in this test........ > >Well, Dennis, let's not start getting personal.. I never claimed to be a >hardware guru, and I certainly am not going to start now. >I also know little about 2500's. The big iron is what >I do and am interested in. I consider the access stuff fairly dinky :-) and the most lucrative. > >Let state *again* for the record - in the access arena, I have >no doubt that intermingled among the ciscos, Ascends, Annexes, >Bays and myriad other vendors, BSDi and FreeBSD PCs can stand >their own, and even be a *better* platform in some cases; perhaps >cisco should put together a platform like this as a low end >small ISP box, and put some of it's IOS protocol handling in it, >kind of like what we're doing with Microsoft's NT. Yes, we're very worried about NT outperforming us! :-) >>you're the one that said that "PCs cant replace routers". Is a 25xx not >>a router? Your definition of a router changes from paragraph to >>paragraph. Maybe thats the problem. > >Well, I did say `core router'. I never said that PCs can't replace >routers; I have done that myself. Just be careful when you start >comparing PCs to the serious routers; that's a different scale of >things. Again, I'll say: use the right tool for the job. >Routers are like computers - there is a wide spectrum in >terms of price and performance. A serious router is one that carries my data. It starts in a small office and ends in the backbone, but there are 1000 times more small routers than large ones. To dismiss them as "trivial" is to ignore 99% of the market, which Im sure you dont want to do. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous PC Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 09:12:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02716 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 09:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isbalham (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02709 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 09:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id RAA02646 for FreeBSD.org!hackers; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:11:26 +0100 Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Sun, 26 May 1996 16:58:17 +0100 X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 17:02:31 +0100 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Subject: MS Mail gateway Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Apologies for hitting the list with this one, but I bet someone here has a good answer. Anyone know of a way of gatewaying mail from MS Mail on a WFWG or Win95 workgroup to the Real World, which doesn't rely on Win NT/MS Exchange Server or that nasty old DOS-based SMTP gateway? Thanks in advance... -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 09:22:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03142 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA03136 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 09:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA31130; Mon, 27 May 1996 02:14:52 +1000 Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 02:14:52 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605261614.CAA31130@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: unix + asm Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I just was curious as to what the diffs were between intel asm >> and at&t asm. See also /usr/share/info/as-all.info.gz. >Everything is just ``a bit different''. The operators are in the >`right' order, i.e. `wrong' > mov $0, %eax ``move number 0 into register eax'' >as opposed to Intel (Microsloth?): > mov eax, 0 ``move eax into 0'' ??? :) Intel. Gas (AT&T?) (MIT?) order is only right if C order is wrong. >Many things in the microsloth assemblers are implicit, like operand >size, or indirectness of the operand (0 in the above example), and you >fairly often need to override the assembler's idea (which is >particular fun if you need to override something for both operands). >The unix assembler makes more things explicit. Direct values are >always prepended with $. Register names start with % (at least for us Most things in gas are implicit too, but gas gets most of the implicit things wrong (it doesn't complain, but generates garbage). ># ># const char * ># btos (int b); ># ># /* Boolean to string */ ># `#' is a standard comment symbol (I think '/' works too), but it is best to usually use C comments, since `# if' is a cpp conditional, not a comment, and everything must be a cpp token. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 09:44:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03909 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 09:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tepcogw.tepco.co.jp (tepcogw.tepco.co.jp [202.32.50.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03891 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 09:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tepcofw3.tepco.co.jp (tepcofw3.tepco.co.jp [202.32.50.7]) by tepcogw.tepco.co.jp (8.7.5/3.4W4-tepcogw) with ESMTP id BAA19897 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 01:42:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from h1009051.smtpgw.tepco.co.jp (smtpgw [130.0.9.51]) by tepcofw3.tepco.co.jp (8.7.5/3.4W4-tepcofw3) with SMTP id BAA00471 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 01:42:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from j1102041 (h1009043) by h1009051.smtpgw.tepco.co.jp (4.1/6.4J.6) id AA29953; Mon, 27 May 96 01:42:48 JST Received: from j1101044 by j1102041 (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09309; Mon, 27 May 1996 01:43:03 +0900 Received: from loopback by j1101044.pmail.tepco.co.jp (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32636; Mon, 27 May 1996 01:43:34 +0900 Received: by pmail.tepco.co.jp (ATSON-1) ; 27 May 96 01:43:34 JST Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: VM in FreeBSD and 4.4BSD book From: Motonori Shindou X-From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0pGIyEhO3E3MRsoSg==?= Date: 27 May 96 01:42:24 JST To: hackers@freebsd.org Lines: 21 Message-Id: <31A889F0.6553.001@pmail.tepco.co.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello. Finally, I obtained "4.4BSD Book" and started reading it. In Section 5.5 of this book (p.145), it says: This behavior is an unwelcome side effect of the separate virtual memory and filesystem caches; it would be eliminated if the two caches were integrated. Is this just what happned in FreeBSD 2.0.5 as described in its REL-NOTES? Merged VM-File Buffer Cache --------------------------- A merged VM/buffer cache design greatly enhances overall system performance and makes it possible to do a number of more optimal memory allocation strategies that were not possible before. === Motonori Shindou From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 09:57:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04185 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 09:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA04176 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 09:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0uNj7p-0003w5C; Sun, 26 May 96 09:57 PDT Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA03371; Sun, 26 May 1996 16:57:04 GMT To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: unix + asm In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 May 1996 11:45:00 +0200." <199605260945.LAA01614@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 16:57:03 +0000 Message-ID: <3369.833129823@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Chris J. Layne wrote: > > > > Of course, all this raises the question: why do you wanna do this? > > > Uhh, so I can try ASM on my unix machine, is their something wrong with > > that? =) > > The only thing that's wrong is that you'll only need it in < 1 % of > all your time (except you're going to debug and optimize locore.s -- > but you might be too late, Poul-Henning already did this recently :). Au contraire my dear Watson, it can easily bee seen that it runs slower now. Since it only runs once however... The point is that now you can (hopefully) read it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 10:03:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04434 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04429 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.mcs.com (root@Venus.mcs.com [192.160.127.92]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA17053; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:03:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: by venus.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Sun, 26 May 96 12:03 CDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Routers and FreeBSD (let's have a bakeoff) To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:03:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" Cc: amcrae@cisco.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605261551.LAA06443@etinc.com> from "dennis" at May 26, 96 11:51:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just for fun though, whats the mininum cost for a unit with two > Fast Ethernets and a dual T1 and enough memory (at least 32 > meg) to be multi-homed running BGP4? PC cost is under > $2500. and it does quite nicely. Again you stack the desk. Why? Two T1 inbound circuits require no more than ordinary Ethernet (3MB aggregate total on each T1 <= ~6Mbps (nominal REAL Ethernet throughput under load). I can come up with contrived examples all day. So can you. Why are you doing so? The rest of us are trying to keep away from that game. Further, that "multi homed Pentium box" will be VERY unlikely to be able to survive serious convergence situations and still be forwarding packets during the event. It further has to handle MEDs and policy routing to be considered something I would recommend that anyone actually run in a multihomed configuration (this is presuming you really want to load-balance instead of just using one of the T1s for backup :-) >> I consider the access stuff fairly dinky :-) > > and the most lucrative. Which is why ASCEND just blew the doors off all the access router people a couple of months ago (the P130 again) which, dollar-for-dollar, outruns any PC *OR* traditional router solution. This "leapfrog" game is common in the computer industry. > A serious router is one that carries my data. It starts in a small > office and ends in the backbone, but there are 1000 times more > small routers than large ones. To dismiss them as "trivial" is to > ignore 99% of the market, which Im sure you dont want to do. > > Dennis Again, comparing a PC to a C4500 is once again biasing the equation. Compare it against an Ascend P130, and tell me who has the best bang for the buck. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1] | 21 Chicagoland POPs, ISDN, 28.8, much more Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ ISDN - Get it here TODAY! | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 10:10:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04758 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04753 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA00878; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:09:46 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199605261709.MAA00878@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: VM in FreeBSD and 4.4BSD book To: T0682740@pmail.tepco.co.jp (Motonori Shindou) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:09:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <31A889F0.6553.001@pmail.tepco.co.jp> from "Motonori Shindou" at May 27, 96 01:42:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hello. > > Finally, I obtained "4.4BSD Book" and started reading it. In Section > 5.5 of this book (p.145), it says: > > This behavior is an unwelcome side effect of the separate virtual > memory and filesystem caches; it would be eliminated if the two > caches were integrated. > > Is this just what happned in FreeBSD 2.0.5 as described in its > REL-NOTES? > > Merged VM-File Buffer Cache > --------------------------- > A merged VM/buffer cache design greatly enhances overall system > performance and makes it possible to do a number of more optimal > memory allocation strategies that were not possible before. > Yes, actually we had several versions of prototype merged VM buffer cache code since pre-1.1.5 days. The version that we ended up using appeared to be the cleanest way to do it at the time, by limiting most of the changes in the system to vfs_bio. Many of the changes to the filesystem code are bugfixes due to misuse of the subroutine "vnode_pager_uncache." The FreeBSD buffer cache code is also designed to limit pressure on pages in processes. It also limits the number of dirty pages from the buffer cache to a reasonable size. There are more things that we can do to improve the managing buffer cache memory policy, but it hasn't been necessary so far. Warning, even though a couple of FreeBSD people reviewed the VM section of the 4.4BSD book, the VM system on FreeBSD has changed substantially. The book generally applies, but there have been many fixes and rewrites relative to the original port of the VM code. There is still more to do though!!! John dyson@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 10:54:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06452 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06446 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uNk0C-000QYvC; Sun, 26 May 96 19:53 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA00474; Sun, 26 May 1996 19:43:30 +0200 Message-Id: <199605261743.TAA00474@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Missing functions in FreeBSD. To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 19:43:30 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <199605220952.LAA13960@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 22, 96 11:52:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > As Michael Reifenberger wrote: > >> Could we integrate a dump termio.h with wrappers to the termios >> functions/structures into the sourcetree (a'la malloc.h)? > > Doesn't make much sense (and strictly spoken, termios is not > downgradable to termio, since termio doesn't support the concept of > distinct input and output speeds -- but neither does our hardware ;). Neither does System V. > Converting something from termio to the Posix-blessed termios is > usually done in less than half an hour. The biggest difference aside > from the appended `s' is usually that you gotta replace the ioctl > cruft by tcgetattr()/tcsetattr(), and the speed stuff by cfsetspeed(). > > If your application requires more than half an hour to convert it, > it's perhaps better to rewrite it instead. :-) Hmmm. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 10:57:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06549 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06544; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr14.etinc.com (dialup-usr14.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA06730; Sun, 26 May 1996 14:03:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:03:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199605261803.OAA06730@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Subject: Re: Routers and FreeBSD (let's have a bakeoff) Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Karl writes... >> Just for fun though, whats the mininum cost for a unit with two >> Fast Ethernets and a dual T1 and enough memory (at least 32 >> meg) to be multi-homed running BGP4? PC cost is under >> $2500. and it does quite nicely. > >Again you stack the desk. Why? > >Two T1 inbound circuits require no more than ordinary Ethernet (3MB >aggregate total on each T1 <= ~6Mbps (nominal REAL Ethernet throughput >under load). Not if you have serious local ethernet routing. Aggregate 3Mbs as an average is about right for 10Mbs ethernet , but that doesnt diminish the instantanous requirements of full 10Mbs that a single transaction can easily achieve (or MUCH higher on a fast ethernet). Is it OK with you if the router drops your serial data when say, a backup is being done between the local ethernets (as many popular low-end routers will)? Is the fact that the router can handle average loads "good enough" even if it chokes under peak pressure? My point was that the above box with fast ethernet is big bucks in non-PC routers, and that a PC does very well and fits within a small-medium ISPs budget. Of course a "real ISP" like MCS has no such requirements, im sure. > >I can come up with contrived examples all day. So can you. Why are you >doing so? The rest of us are trying to keep away from that game. Its not contrived, Karl. Its a fairly common scenario. > >Further, that "multi homed Pentium box" will be VERY unlikely to be able >to survive serious convergence situations and still be forwarding packets >during the event. It further has to handle MEDs and policy routing to >be considered something I would recommend that anyone actually run in >a multihomed configuration (this is presuming you really want to >load-balance instead of just using one of the T1s for backup :-) Word is the performance is pretty good. Pentium 133s are pretty fast little buggers. Although, recommendations are almost always highly subjective, so I wouldnt expect one from someone so clearly biased. > >>> I consider the access stuff fairly dinky :-) >> >> and the most lucrative. > >Which is why ASCEND just blew the doors off all the access router people a >couple of months ago (the P130 again) which, dollar-for-dollar, outruns any >PC *OR* traditional router solution. whos doors? my doors are intact :-) And what does "outruns" mean, in human-speak? > >This "leapfrog" game is common in the computer industry. > >> A serious router is one that carries my data. It starts in a small >> office and ends in the backbone, but there are 1000 times more >> small routers than large ones. To dismiss them as "trivial" is to >> ignore 99% of the market, which Im sure you dont want to do. >> >> Dennis > >Again, comparing a PC to a C4500 is once again biasing the equation. > >Compare it against an Ascend P130, and tell me who has the best bang for >the buck. I do regularly. With an Ascend I still have to buy a host to run my web pages, e-mail and DNS. Plus I have an extra hop (rather than having the serial line terminate directly into my host, so the performance is inferior even if the Ascend has a 200Mhz processor in it. With a unix box, I dont need a secondary host, so the cost of an Ascend + host is more that my unix router/host no matter what kind of dinky little host you put on it. You try and tell me that an NT server with an Ascend P130 is a higher perf solution or less costly than a unix host with a card and I'll laugh so hard ..... Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous PC Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 11:21:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07486 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07451 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA02565 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 20:21:22 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA20049 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 May 1996 20:21:22 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA02680 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 May 1996 19:31:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605261731.TAA02680@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: unix + asm To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 19:31:24 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605261614.CAA31130@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "May 27, 96 02:14:52 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > >Everything is just ``a bit different''. The operators are in the > >`right' order, i.e. > > `wrong' > > > mov $0, %eax ``move number 0 into register eax'' > > >as opposed to Intel (Microsloth?): > > > mov eax, 0 ``move eax into 0'' ??? :) > > Intel. Gas (AT&T?) (MIT?) order is only right if C order is wrong. Depends on your point of view, of course. For the Zilog `ld' mnemonic, ``ld dst, src'' sounds more reasonable to me (``load the dst with src.''). For the Intel `mov' mnemonic, the other way round seems better suited (``move src into dst.''). > ># > ># const char * > ># btos (int b); > ># > ># /* Boolean to string */ > ># > > `#' is a standard comment symbol (I think '/' works too), but it is best > to usually use C comments, since `# if' is a cpp conditional, not a > comment, and everything must be a cpp token. This is only true for .S files which are preprocessed. .s files are being passed directly to the assembler. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 11:28:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08069 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08047 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 11:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0uNkXm-0003w6C; Sun, 26 May 96 11:27 PDT Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA03587; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:27:58 GMT To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: unix + asm In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 May 1996 19:31:24 +0200." <199605261731.TAA02680@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:27:58 +0000 Message-ID: <3585.833135278@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Depends on your point of view, of course. For the Zilog `ld' > mnemonic, ``ld dst, src'' sounds more reasonable to me (``load the dst > with src.''). For the Intel `mov' mnemonic, the other way round seems > better suited (``move src into dst.''). Principle of least asstonishment strikes again! I agree! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 12:43:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11379 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cesium.clock.org (cesium.clock.org [17.255.4.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11359; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cesium.clock.org id <119170-29765>; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:43:23 -0800 From: Sean Doran To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, smd@cesium.clock.org In-reply-to: dennis@etinc.com's message of Fri, 24 May 1996 14:06:49 -0400 Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) References: <199605241806.OAA01368@etinc.com> Message-Id: <96May26.124323pdt.119170-29765+19@cesium.clock.org> Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:43:18 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> "Dennis" == Dennis writes: Dennis> All of the routers on the market are just Dennis> basically PCs, in one form or another. Cisco Dennis> OS is just a hacked up unix os, so what your Dennis> really saying is that the guys at cisco write Dennis> better code than you do. Well, your inaccuracies need correcting. Firstly, "IOS" (a name I hate) is not like UNIX in just about any respect you'd care to think about. In particular, there is no preemptive scheduling, processes are free to walk all over each other's memory, there is a very weak distinction between user space and kernel space (in particular, a crash in a process will usually take the whole system out), and there is no facility for adding in processes which are not linked at compile time. IOS is, pretty simply, a very specialized single program controlling a hardware system. That it happens to multitask internally doesn't really change this. The easiest comparison between IOS and another OS would probably have to do with TOPS-20, but that's largely because of the interface that human users see. The value of IOS is, IMO, essentially equal to the value of the people coding. Dave Katz, Ravi Chandra, Paul Traina (who plays with FreeBSD, I note), Greg Christy, the late Tony Li and a number of others are certainly much better at coding things having to do with such esoterica as IS:IS, BGP4 and flinging IPv4 packets around too quickly than anyone else I know anywhere. I'm not sure I'd trust them to play with "a hacked up unix os", or certain other guts in IOS, but that is not what they do. Conversely, what they do is not what anyone else on this list does unless he also works for Cisco or its competitors including 3Com, Bad Notworks or the gated consortium (and even then, gated people do not generally play with anything more than the routing protocols and getting routing information propagated into the kernel). "All of the routers on the market are just basically PCs" is, I hope, rhetorical licence, as it's pretty obviously untrue. No high end router I can think of except perhaps the current generation of Cisco 7500s (one RSP, no smart interface cards) is very much like a PC at all. On the low end, you're right, though, except you have to get to the very low end before you get to "routers" that _really_ are PCs, without more than a tiny amount of specialized hardware goo. (I think of Netblazers here). There are definite and obvious advantages to being able to use a UNIX-using PC (or Sun SPARC) as a low-to- moderate-end router. Making up stories about Cisco products in particular is not necessary to prove that point, and it doesn't really detract from the obvious disadvantages of using a PC instead of a dedicated router, both technical and non-technical. Sean. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: PGP Public Key in ftp://ftp.sprintlink.net/engineer/smd/pgpkey iQCVAwUBMai0JESWYarrFs6xAQExjQP+MpvJhFgD2A+NIjk0eYJspkiR6+rmL4x0 z6L9wP85PKnNHniPZHR/RpiQFzT//fx0TlcuOiZuN9ZNSquWro3NjLmehSJOjOgi Ui8jijzjnU53d18iGuWx6AbkDqZk5D3QQoH8ImEpIpAUImT6irq9zQqCaaUNzSil 8qFrtNCM3Nc= =sDAk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 12:57:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12124 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@[150.203.76.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12119 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605261957.MAA12119@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA080590588; Mon, 27 May 1996 05:56:28 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 05:56:28 +1000 (EST) Cc: dutchman@spase.nl, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605221701.LAA04803@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at May 22, 96 11:01:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In some mail from Warner Losh, sie said: > > : I want to modify select(2) to return the `timeout left' as described in the > : BUGS section of the manual page. Any reason why I should not? > > That is *********NOT******* how select works. Too many programs do > not do the right thing when this is done. The failure mode is that > things seem to work but you have no CPU left for other thigns. Ths is > a *VERY*BAD* idea. Linux tried it and now they have bsd compatible > select behavior unless you go our of your way to get the behavior you > propose. Why? Too many programs were eating the CPU for lunch > because they were poorly programmed. And there were too many to > easily fix all of them. Linux is the *ONLY* system that changes the > timeval in the select call. > > It is a bad idea. If it had been a good idea, then Lite or Lite2 > would have had it changed. The bug in the man page is really a bug > with the man page by now, imho. > > If you want to have a system call that returns this information, don't > call it select. Any thoughts on writing a poll() which allows a variable number of bits passed in the fd_set (or new) structure to get around FD_SETSIZE limits ? darren From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 12:57:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12166 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toplink1.toplink.net (toplink1.toplink.net [194.163.120.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA12138; Sun, 26 May 1996 12:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ck@localhost) by toplink1.toplink.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA29941; Sun, 26 May 1996 21:56:35 +0200 From: Christian Kratzer Message-Id: <199605261956.VAA29941@toplink1.toplink.net> Subject: Cyclom 8 port compatible, irq problem To: hackers@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:56:35 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I posted a couple of weeks back about problems with a Cyclom 8 port card. Well I still have not got the sucker running and thought I'd ask for pointers one last time before dumping the card any buying an orignal cyclom product. (I now finally know of a dealer here in Germany) The card is supposed to be fully compatible with the cyclom 8 port card. The manufacturer is Decision computers http://www.decision.com/. Here's how far I got. The dos program checks the card and says its ok. The dealer says the card works under linux with their cyclom driver. The card is detected ok May 25 17:39:14 toplink5 /kernel: cy0 irq 15 maddr 0xd8000 msize 8192 on isa but it does not throw any interrupts. i.e. it does not show up in vmstat -i When I try to talk to a connected modem characters just end up in the outbound queue but nothing happens. ck@toplink5: {8} pstat -t | grep cuac cuac0 0 0 26 1296 256 28 OCcBa 0 0 term cuac1 0 0 22 1296 256 24 OCcBa 0 0 term I don't think it's a hardware Problem as I am currently dual booting dos and freebsd 2.1r on the test machine. The dos test programs detects the card and says it's ok. I now have following questions to the world ;-) - Is anybody else using a Decision Computers Card ? - Do I need some kind of special cabling ? The modems run fine of normal sio ports. I run my modems with AT&F&D3&C1S0=1 - Do I need any special stty settings to get it started ? - One theory of mine is that there is some minor difference to the "real" cyclom Product in initialising the card and getting it to trigger interrupts. Any tips on what I should look out for ? - Where in the kernel should I start tracing to check if the irq has really been registered ? Or can I safely assume that the card is not triggering any interrupts. Greetings Christian -- TopLink GbR, Internet Services info@toplink.net Christian Kratzer http://www.toplink.net/ Phone: +49 7452 87174 Fax: +49 7452 87175 FreeBSD spoken here! From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 13:26:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA13981 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 13:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13969 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 13:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA00671; Sun, 26 May 1996 13:25:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199605262025.NAA00671@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" cc: dennis@etinc.com (dennis), amcrae@cisco.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Routers and FreeBSD (let's have a bakeoff) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 May 1996 12:03:21 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 13:25:46 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Just for fun though, whats the mininum cost for a unit with two > > Fast Ethernets and a dual T1 and enough memory (at least 32 > > meg) to be multi-homed running BGP4? PC cost is under > > $2500. and it does quite nicely. > > Again you stack the desk. Why? > > Two T1 inbound circuits require no more than ordinary Ethernet (3MB > aggregate total on each T1 <= ~6Mbps (nominal REAL Ethernet throughput > under load). > > I can come up with contrived examples all day. So can you. Why are you > doing so? The rest of us are trying to keep away from that game. > > Further, that "multi homed Pentium box" will be VERY unlikely to be able > to survive serious convergence situations and still be forwarding packets > during the event. It further has to handle MEDs and policy routing to > be considered something I would recommend that anyone actually run in > a multihomed configuration (this is presuming you really want to > load-balance instead of just using one of the T1s for backup :-) > > >> I consider the access stuff fairly dinky :-) > > > > and the most lucrative. > > Which is why ASCEND just blew the doors off all the access router people a > couple of months ago (the P130 again) which, dollar-for-dollar, outruns any > PC *OR* traditional router solution. > Hi, V-site.net is a small ISP which uses an Ascend P400. My FreeBSD plus my Ascend Pipeline 50 is periodically knocking off the Ascend P400. Can anyone on the list make a recommendation to replace the Ascend P400? Since I know my ISP for about 20 years or so, if I can make a good recommendation he will go for it. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 13:30:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14439 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 13:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14422; Sun, 26 May 1996 13:30:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199605262030.NAA14422@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: dima@FreeBSD.org (Dima Ruban) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 13:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, lithium@cia-g.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605250814.BAA16824@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Dima Ruban" at May 25, 96 01:14:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dima Ruban wrote: > > Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com writes: > > > > However, I think you'd be doing yourself a real favor by learning perl > > (and awk, sed, sh, grep, cut, etc.). It's The Right Thing To Do. > > It's The Unix Way: use small simple tools that are very good at a > > First: this is not small tool. correct. > Second: this is slow tool. hmm... i wonder. how about writing and timing a coupleof script that you have in sed | awk | sh | whatever and timing the same in perl, just curious ;) > Third: this is not standard unix tool. in FreeBSD it is. /usr/bin/perl. jmb ps. majordomo is perl, anyone care to rewrite it in sh | sed | awk or tcl or whatever? -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 14:00:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17147 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA17137 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 14:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA04027; Mon, 27 May 1996 06:57:03 +1000 Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 06:57:03 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605262057.GAA04027@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: unix + asm Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> `#' is a standard comment symbol (I think '/' works too), but it is best >> to usually use C comments, since `# if' is a cpp conditional, not a >> comment, and everything must be a cpp token. >This is only true for .S files which are preprocessed. .s files are >being passed directly to the assembler. All kernel .s files are preprocessed, and there is only one .s file in /usr/src that isn't a kernel .s file (tn3270/general/vaxbsubs.s). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 15:22:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA26472 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 15:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA26431 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 15:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA06328 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:21:52 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA21950 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:21:52 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA03805 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:11:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605262211.AAA03805@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: unix + asm To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 00:11:32 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605262057.GAA04027@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "May 27, 96 06:57:03 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > >This is only true for .S files which are preprocessed. .s files are > >being passed directly to the assembler. > > All kernel .s files are preprocessed, and there is only one .s file in > /usr/src that isn't a kernel .s file (tn3270/general/vaxbsubs.s). Correct the makefile, and pass them to cc instead of piping them explicitly through cpp. ;) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 16:03:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03637 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 16:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA03622 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 16:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA07129; Sun, 26 May 1996 19:09:46 -0400 Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 19:09:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199605262309.TAA07129@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Sean Doran From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk S. Doran writes.... >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > >>>>>> "Dennis" == Dennis writes: > > Dennis> All of the routers on the market are just > Dennis> basically PCs, in one form or another. Cisco > Dennis> OS is just a hacked up unix os, so what your > Dennis> really saying is that the guys at cisco write > Dennis> better code than you do. > >Well, your inaccuracies need correcting. > >Firstly, "IOS" (a name I hate) is not like UNIX in just >about any respect you'd care to think about. Um, I didnt say it was like modern VM unix, only that its origin is unix-based. The fact that it doesnt do alot of things like unix is a result of the "hacking". >There are definite and obvious advantages to being able to >use a UNIX-using PC (or Sun SPARC) as a low-to- >moderate-end router. Making up stories about Cisco >products in particular is not necessary to prove that >point, and it doesn't really detract from the obvious >disadvantages of using a PC instead of a dedicated router, >both technical and non-technical. This would be fine, except that many of the "obvious" advantages are horse-nonsense (like the moving parts BS). The issue is that unless your talking very high density or very high end, the "advantages" are mostly propaganda. your (ridiculous) allusion to the "Sun Sparc" is a clear indication that you just dont get it. The advantages of a PC are the high power/ low cost ratio, modularity and availablilty of low cost subsystems, and mass production cost attributes of virtually all componants, as well as the wide variety and functionality of inexpensive software, virtually none of which are attributes of the Sun Sparc. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 16:40:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11511 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 16:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tao.gnj.or.jp (tao.gnj.or.jp [202.243.53.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11450 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 16:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 202.243.53.84 ([202.243.53.84]) by tao.gnj.or.jp (8.6.11/3.4Wbeta6-primary) with SMTP id IAA25446; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:40:13 +0900 Message-ID: Date: 27 May 1996 07:49:44 +0900 From: "Shigeru IKEDA" Subject: Re: distinguish i386SX from i386DX [locore.s] To: "hackers@freebsd.org" Cc: "si@injapan.net" X-Mailer: Mail*Link PT/Internet 1.6.0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I forgot to note the information source. I got it from http://grafi.ii.pw.edu.pl/gbm/x86/sxdx.html. P.S. Anyone try this patch? ------ On 5/17/96 at 6:36:32 AM si@injapan.net wrote: ------ Hello hackers, I added the code that distinguish i386SX from i386DX to 'locore.s' and modify 'specialreg.h'. I tested this code on my i386SX box only, because there are no i386DX box around me. If you have one, please test and tell me (or this ML) the result. And I tested this code on FreeBSD-2.0.5R only. My i386SX box's configuration: Model: Toshiba J3100SX001VW CPUs: i386SX(20MHz) + i387SX Memory: 10M HD: 200M OS: FreeBSD-2.0.5R Following diffs are for FreeBSD-current. *** 1.1 1996/05/17 05:23:21 --- locore.s 1996/05/17 05:48:51 *************** *** 547,552 **** --- 547,568 ---- testl %eax,%eax jnz 1f movl $CPU_386,_cpu-KERNBASE + + /* Try to toggle ET bit; cannot change on 386SX. */ + movl %cr0,%eax + movl %eax,%ecx + orl $CR0_ET,%eax + movl %eax,%cr0 + + movl %cr0,%eax + xorl %ecx,%eax + andl $CR0_ET,%eax + movl %ecx,%cr0 + + testl %eax,%eax + jnz 1f + movl $CPU_386SX,_cpu-KERNBASE + jmp 3f 1: /* Try to toggle identification flag; does not exist on early 486s. */ *** 1.1 1996/05/17 05:34:53 --- specialreg.h 1996/05/17 05:35:15 *************** *** 46,54 **** #define CR0_EM 0x00000004 /* EMulate non-NPX coproc. (trap ESC only) */ #endif #define CR0_TS 0x00000008 /* Task Switched (if MP, trap ESC and WAIT) */ - #ifdef notused #define CR0_ET 0x00000010 /* Extension Type (387 (if set) vs 287) */ - #endif #define CR0_PG 0x80000000 /* PaGing enable */ /* --- 46,52 ---- --si -.. . .--- ... ...-- --. ..- .--- ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.4]) by tao.gnj.or.jp (8.6.11/3.4Wbeta6-primary) with ESMTP id SAA00892 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 18:01:10 +0900 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA19521; Thu, 16 May 1996 23:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA19482 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 23:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from js3guj.injapan.net (pms16.inJapan.net [202.243.53.80]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA19469 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 23:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from si@localhost) by js3guj.injapan.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA04414; Fri, 17 May 1996 15:36:32 +0900 Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 15:36:32 +0900 Message-Id: <199605170636.PAA04414@js3guj.injapan.net> X-UIDL: 832324704.007 From: si@injapan.net To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: distinguish i386SX from i386DX [locore.s] CC: si@injapan.net Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Status: U --si -.. . .--- ... ...-- --. ..- .--- I've lost mail arrived around 5/22 22:00- 5/23 6:00 due to my mail gateway software. Please send again. Sent with CTM PowerMail 1.0.6 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 17:04:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17452 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17348 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA27572; Sun, 26 May 96 20:03:23 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id UAA16209; Sun, 26 May 1996 20:03:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199605270003.UAA16209@exalt.x.org> To: Darren Reed Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 27 May 1996 05:56:28 EST. <199605261957.MAA12119@freefall.freebsd.org> Organization: X Consortium Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 20:03:20 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In some mail from Warner Losh, sie said: > > > > : I want to modify select(2) to return the `timeout left' as described in the > > : BUGS section of the manual page. Any reason why I should not? > > > > That is *********NOT******* how select works. Too many programs do > > not do the right thing when this is done. The failure mode is that > > things seem to work but you have no CPU left for other thigns. Ths is > > a *VERY*BAD* idea. Linux tried it and now they have bsd compatible > > select behavior unless you go our of your way to get the behavior you > > propose. Why? Too many programs were eating the CPU for lunch > > because they were poorly programmed. And there were too many to > > easily fix all of them. Linux is the *ONLY* system that changes the > > timeval in the select call. > > > > It is a bad idea. If it had been a good idea, then Lite or Lite2 > > would have had it changed. The bug in the man page is really a bug > > with the man page by now, imho. > > > > If you want to have a system call that returns this information, don't > > call it select. > > Any thoughts on writing a poll() which allows a variable number of bits > passed in the fd_set (or new) structure to get around FD_SETSIZE limits Poll is (finally) specified in Spec1170 and it doesn't use bits in an fd_set. If you want a system call that does this, don't call it poll. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 17:05:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17816 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17788 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id TAA28410; Sun, 26 May 1996 19:04:13 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199605270004.TAA28410@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 19:04:12 -0500 (CDT) Cc: smd@cesium.clock.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605262309.TAA07129@etinc.com> from "Dennis" at May 26, 96 07:09:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >There are definite and obvious advantages to being able to > >use a UNIX-using PC (or Sun SPARC) as a low-to- > >moderate-end router. Making up stories about Cisco > >products in particular is not necessary to prove that > >point, and it doesn't really detract from the obvious > >disadvantages of using a PC instead of a dedicated router, > >both technical and non-technical. > > This would be fine, except that many of the "obvious" advantages > are horse-nonsense (like the moving parts BS). The issue > is that unless your talking very high density or very high end, > the "advantages" are mostly propaganda. > > your (ridiculous) allusion to the "Sun Sparc" is a clear indication > that you just dont get it. The advantages of a PC are the high power/ > low cost ratio, modularity and availablilty of low cost subsystems, > and mass production cost attributes of virtually all componants, as well > as the wide variety and functionality of inexpensive software, virtually > none of which are attributes of the Sun Sparc. I've pretty much stayed out of this battle even though it was very tempting :-) For what very very little it is worth, I can clearly see both sides of this debate. I would scold Dennis for not mentioning that with a PC based solution, it is very easy to hack on the software (not much harder to hack on the hardware). Other than that, he has pushed all my favorite hot buttons. In particular the "ready availability of components" and "modularity" arguments are hard to counter from the dedicated hardware side. I just upgraded one of my routers, from an aging 386DX/40 with NE2000 (T1 router) to a 486DX5/133 with PCI 21040-based Ethernet for a mere $220. That is about an 8x boost in processor and a very large upgrade in Ethernet capability :-) I would agree that a specialized router will work wonders under many environments. I would agree that a PC based solution is not for everyone. Other arguments about reliability, etc., are mainly a function of peoples imaginations, as I can show you an equally shitty dedicated router and PC solution side by side. PC's can be set up with serial consoles. Dedicated routers can have poor firewall performance. Blah on it all. Which one is better suited to a situation is largely a matter of site preference. I don't plan to buy a Cisco any time soon. I like having source. I like having a very competent group of hackers to maintain a great IP stack. I like my homogeneous FreeBSD environment. I like the inexpensive components and incredible stability afforded by intelligent hardware purchase decisions. I like my solution, for my own uses. Whoopie fricking ding. I don't think anybody gives a s***. It is one of those "Which is better, Winlose95 or NT" battles. Each has applications. Neither is perfect. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 17:17:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA20093 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA20072 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 17:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA23163; Mon, 27 May 1996 10:02:56 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605270032.KAA23163@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: unix + asm To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 10:02:55 +0930 (CST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3585.833135278@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at May 26, 96 06:27:58 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp stands accused of saying: > > > Depends on your point of view, of course. For the Zilog `ld' > > mnemonic, ``ld dst, src'' sounds more reasonable to me (``load the dst > > with src.''). For the Intel `mov' mnemonic, the other way round seems > > better suited (``move src into dst.''). > > Principle of least asstonishment strikes again! I agree! How about tracking history a bit more? PDP/68K assembly syntax is all ,, and I suspect that gas' origins lie more in that direction... > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 18:21:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02277 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02262 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA00378; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:19:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199605270119.SAA00378@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Joe Greco cc: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis), smd@cesium.clock.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 26 May 1996 19:04:12 CDT." <199605270004.TAA28410@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:19:35 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >There are definite and obvious advantages to being able to > > >use a UNIX-using PC (or Sun SPARC) as a low-to- > > >moderate-end router. Making up stories about Cisco > > >products in particular is not necessary to prove that > > >point, and it doesn't really detract from the obvious > > >disadvantages of using a PC instead of a dedicated router, > > >both technical and non-technical. > > > > This would be fine, except that many of the "obvious" advantages > > are horse-nonsense (like the moving parts BS). The issue > > is that unless your talking very high density or very high end, > > the "advantages" are mostly propaganda. > > > > your (ridiculous) allusion to the "Sun Sparc" is a clear indication > > that you just dont get it. The advantages of a PC are the high power/ > > low cost ratio, modularity and availablilty of low cost subsystems, > > and mass production cost attributes of virtually all componants, as well > > as the wide variety and functionality of inexpensive software, virtually > > none of which are attributes of the Sun Sparc. > > I've pretty much stayed out of this battle even though it was very tempting > :-) > > For what very very little it is worth, I can clearly see both sides of this > debate. I don't see the merit of this discussion with respect to FreeBSD. You guys ought to take to private e-mail. If the discussion persists is easy for me to delete the thread related to this subject,i.e., you are losing the audience. Had no idea that testosterone level was a periodic function in this mailing list 8) Honest guys, it is getting out of hand !!! Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 18:22:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02437 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02426 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA00392; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:20:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199605270120.SAA00392@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Michael Smith cc: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp), joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unix + asm In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 May 1996 10:02:55 +0930." <199605270032.KAA23163@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:20:48 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Poul-Henning Kamp stands accused of saying: > > > > > Depends on your point of view, of course. For the Zilog `ld' > > > mnemonic, ``ld dst, src'' sounds more reasonable to me (``load the dst > > > with src.''). For the Intel `mov' mnemonic, the other way round seems > > > better suited (``move src into dst.''). > > > > Principle of least asstonishment strikes again! I agree! > > How about tracking history a bit more? PDP/68K assembly syntax is all > ,, and I suspect that gas' origins lie more in that > direction... How about moving this sort discussion to who-gives-a-shit mailing list Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 18:31:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA03733 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (eldorado.net-tel.co.uk [193.122.171.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA03700; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:31:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Received: (from root@localhost) by eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.10) id CAA20933; Mon, 27 May 1996 02:30:27 +0100 Received: from "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=GOLD 400/C=GB/" by net-tel.co.uk (Route400-RFCGate); Mon, 27 May 96 2:30:14 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "eldorado" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Mon, 27 May 96 2:30:14 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "net-tel cambridge" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Mon, 27 May 96 1:30:12 +0000 X400-Received: by "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"; Relayed; Mon, 27 May 96 1:30:12 +0000 X400-MTS-Identifier: ["/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/";hst:27674-960527013012-4F6E] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Originator: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; Date: Mon, 27 May 96 1:30:12 +0000 Content-Identifier: Re(2): SCSI host Message-Id: <"1443-960526225554-A900*/G=Andrew/S=Gordon/O=NET-TEL Computer Systems Ltd/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"@MHS> To: freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Cc: "(FreeBSD hackers)" In-Reply-To: <199605240641.IAA21885@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re(2): SCSI hostadapter Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Reminds me: does anybody have any information about the 53C400? > > I've got a couple of these boards sitting on a shelf, they used to > accompany HP ScanJets. I don't think they will be anything that can > be called performant, but just out of curiosity... Perhaps they are > good enough to recommend them to someone who needs an adapter for an > Archive Viper 150 or so (which i'd recommend rather than those floppy > tape crap). As it happens, I was trying to put a system together yesterday, using mostly old junk I had lying around. Since I didn't care about disc performance, and I had an old SCSI drive plus a 53C400 adapter handy, I thought I would use those (booting off floppy with some suitably hacked bootblocks). The adapter originally came with a scanner, (but not an HP one) and contains just the 53C400 plus an LS245 buffering the databus and some SCSI termination resnets. Curiously, the nca driver probes the card as a NCR-5380 despite the fact that the chip on the card is clearly labelled as a 53C400A. However, hacking the driver to probe only for 53C400 (it normally probes 5380 first) caused the card not to be probed at all. This particular card does not support interrupts (it doesn't even have any fingers on the connector for any of the IRQ lines). For the hard drive, it seems to work reliably, but is _very_ slow - here are some bonnie results (and results for the same motherboard/drive but with a 2940 instead, for comparison): -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU ncr 16 105 89.0 110 10.8 55 1.3 109 8.4 111 5.5 9.6 8.7 2940 16 560 28.4 553 7.7 266 6.5 612 28.7 605 8.3 24.8 3.8 (the drive is an old SCSI-1 device, async transfers only. CPU is AMD 486/100). Results with a tape drive added were mixed. A couple of times, it got into a state where the SCSI bus was jammed, giving "st0: timed out", and total disaster if the hard drive was on the same controller. With just the tape drive, it worked OK, but I was not able to get it to stream with a DC6525 tape (normal data rate around 200K/sec). With a DC6150 (data rate about 90K/sec) it performed normally. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 18:31:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA03773 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (eldorado.net-tel.co.uk [193.122.171.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA03705; Sun, 26 May 1996 18:31:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Received: (from root@localhost) by eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.10) id CAA20936; Mon, 27 May 1996 02:30:30 +0100 Received: from "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=GOLD 400/C=GB/" by net-tel.co.uk (Route400-RFCGate); Mon, 27 May 96 2:30:20 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "eldorado" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Mon, 27 May 96 2:30:20 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "net-tel cambridge" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Mon, 27 May 96 1:30:17 +0000 X400-Received: by "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"; Relayed; Mon, 27 May 96 1:30:16 +0000 X400-MTS-Identifier: ["/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/";hst:27674-960527013016-5E86] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Originator: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; Date: Mon, 27 May 96 1:30:16 +0000 Content-Identifier: Re(2): SCSI host Message-Id: <"1443-960527013356-2539*/G=Andrew/S=Gordon/O=NET-TEL Computer Systems Ltd/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"@MHS> To: freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Cc: "(FreeBSD hackers)" In-Reply-To: <199605240641.IAA21885@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re(2): SCSI hostadapter Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Reminds me: does anybody have any information about the 53C400? > > I've got a couple of these boards sitting on a shelf, they used to > accompany HP ScanJets. I don't think they will be anything that can > be called performant, but just out of curiosity... Perhaps they are > good enough to recommend them to someone who needs an adapter for an > Archive Viper 150 or so (which i'd recommend rather than those floppy > tape crap). As it happens, I was trying to put a system together yesterday, using mostly old junk I had lying around. Since I didn't care about disc performance, and I had an old SCSI drive plus a 53C400 adapter handy, I thought I would use those (booting off floppy with some suitably hacked bootblocks). The adapter originally came with a scanner, (but not an HP one) and contains just the 53C400 plus an LS245 buffering the databus and some SCSI termination resnets. Curiously, the nca driver probes the card as a NCR-5380 despite the fact that the chip on the card is clearly labelled as a 53C400A. However, hacking the driver to probe only for 53C400 (it normally probes 5380 first) caused the card not to be detected at all. This particular card does not support interrupts (it doesn't even have any fingers on the connector for any of the IRQ lines). For the hard drive, it seems to work reliably, but is _very_ slow - here are some bonnie results (and results for the same motherboard/drive but with a 2940 instead, for comparison): -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU ncr 16 105 89.0 110 10.8 55 1.3 109 8.4 111 5.5 9.6 8.7 2940 16 560 28.4 553 7.7 266 6.5 612 28.7 605 8.3 24.8 3.8 (the drive is an old SCSI-1 device, async transfers only. CPU is AMD 486/100). Results with a tape drive added were mixed. A couple of times, it got into a state where the SCSI bus was jammed, giving "st0: timed out", and total disaster if the hard drive was on the same controller. With just the tape drive, it worked OK, but I was not able to get it to stream with a DC6525 tape (normal data rate around 200K/sec). With a DC6150 (data rate about 90K/sec) it performed normally. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 19:12:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA12477 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 19:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA12445 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 19:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA23969; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:12:19 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:12:19 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Andrew McRae cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Routers and FreeBSD (let's have a bakeoff) In-Reply-To: <199605252123.OAA09917@doberman.cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 25 May 1996, Andrew McRae wrote: > Give me a observed pps on each interface, using mimimum sized packets. > Ethernet can run around 13 or 14 Kpps, and a full duplex T1 will > run around 7200 pps. The industry accepted minimum sized packet > is 64 byte ether, 52 bytes serial (ether - mac header + serial encap). > Can a PC really handle a total of 7200 + 14K + 14K = 35200 pps? > I don't know - it's actually something I can test really easily, > and it would be an interesting exercise for you to send me > a sample config and then I can have a bakeoff in the lab. I would like to see what a PC could do in a 2-ethernet and full duplex T1 configuration. With ISDN it would be interesting to see what a PC could do with a 1 or 2 ethernet and >=2 PRI config. > BTW this kind of config is very low end. I am much more interested > if you put a couple of Fast Ethernets in and then run a 45 Mbit T3. > *That's* a serious configuration :-) I don't think most people would be interested in this today. I think we can all agree that we'll leave this to Cisco for now. > If people are interested, I will publish the results. > Again, full disclosure of the environment is important. Count me in as very interested. -mh From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 19:42:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18595 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 19:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18571 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 19:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA24147; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:41:52 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:41:52 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Wilko Bulte cc: FreeBSD hackers list Subject: Re: all this talk about routers and all... In-Reply-To: <199605251834.UAA03530@yedi.iaf.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 25 May 1996, Wilko Bulte wrote: > Granted, I did learn quit some interesting things from the holy war > we are currently experiencing. > > But I cannot get rid of the feeling this is _NOT_ a -hackers issue but > more a religious war. Any chance this can be moved to a > -freebsd-kills-dedicated-network-hardware mailing list?? > A lot of the discussion as gone on tangents, but I think the primary topic is very hacker material. The big value add of the Ascend is software technology, I don't think the hardware of the boxes is really the overwhelming big value add. ISDN is what gives you the density and Ascend has taken advantage of it in a big way. Having said that, I don't want people to get the impression that this is a FreeBSD vs. Ascend religious war. This about making an ISDN solution with FreeBSD. Ascend just naturally comes up as a benchmark but I don't think its necessary for the advocates of Ascend to defend it unless there is blatant misinformation posted in this mailing list. I'm interested in seeing something work with FreeBSD because Net/3 is world class code, the radix trie stuff makes routing very efficient. Maybe some of van Jacobson's post Net/3 research on large contiguous buffers will find it's way into BSD when the cost of RAM becomes less of an issue. I would also like to see some world class ISDN work done on BSD systems. I'm not a networking god, but I'll buy an SDLComm card and help test it if someone picks up the ball and runs with it. I think Greg in Germany is looking into doing this now. -mh From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 21:38:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11566 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 21:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA11549 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 21:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA11508; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199605270438.AAA11508@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whizzo.transsys.com: Host localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Hancock cc: Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD hackers list From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: all this talk about routers and all... References: In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 May 1996 11:41:52 +0900." Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 00:38:09 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Having said that, I don't want people to get the impression that this is a > FreeBSD vs. Ascend religious war. This about making an ISDN solution with > FreeBSD. > > Ascend just naturally comes up as a benchmark but I don't think > its necessary for the advocates of Ascend to defend it unless there is > blatant misinformation posted in this mailing list. The major point not really discussed if you're making a comparison is the fact that you can install V.34 digital modems in an Ascend solution, and use the same ISDN PRI facility to service both callers with V.32/V.32bis/V.34 modems, as well as callers with ISDN TAs or doing synchronous PPP on an 64 kb/s B channel. Obviously, the advantages of handling modem calls is that you can have one larger rotary, for both types of callers, rather than two different ones and having to worry about adding capacity to each one individually. If modem calls are not an issue, clearly you can ignore all of this. > I'm interested in seeing something work with FreeBSD because Net/3 is > world class code, the radix trie stuff makes routing very efficient. > Maybe some of van Jacobson's post Net/3 research on large contiguous > buffers will find it's way into BSD when the cost of RAM becomes less of > an issue. I think the real software issue isn't really the IP forwarding function which is done pretty well well in FreeBSD. It's likely not "complicated" routing, as you can cobble stuff together using gated. This code is pretty mature in the FreeBSD environment. The difficultly faced is building a ISDN signalling stack to run on the D channel and talk to the switch. This is where a bunch of emperical knowledge and experence has made an Ascend platform a good choice in many environments. You'll need a Q.920/Q.921 LAPD level-2 protocol to run on the 64kb/s D channel to carry frame back and forth between the ISDN terminal and the switch. Certainly the HDLC implementation would be done in the hardware interface, but there are also some higher-level X.25-like transport stuff going on in here, too. Then you'll need a Q.930/Q.931 level-3 protocol stack for actually communicating call processing events between the switch and the ISDN terminal. I believe this is where you'll find a variety of different, switch-specific implementation differences to deal with. I think this is where the real challange is. Once you've managed to get the ISDN call running, you can hack it into your existing PPP stack without huge differences and away you go. That why I was interested in what sort of software development kits might be available, and the status of the drivers. My past experience has been that there are no real freely available ISDN signalling stacks available, so either you roll your own from scratch or license it from someone else. It would be very cool to have an ISDN signalling stack in FreeBSD. Done there right way, you could use it to drive a bunch of ISDN BRI interfaces (looking like a switch), and build yourself a PBX using ISDN voice terminals, er, "phones" rather than the various proprietary digital phone sets you get from NT, etc. Louis Mamakos From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 21:40:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11811 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 21:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA11797 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 21:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from coredump@localhost) by onyx.nervosa.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA09560; Sun, 26 May 1996 21:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:39:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris J. Layne" To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: Michael Smith , Poul-Henning Kamp , joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: unix + asm In-Reply-To: <199605270120.SAA00392@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 26 May 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > How about moving this sort discussion to who-gives-a-shit mailing list > Amancio Is it just me, or are the natives getting restless? == Chris Layne ======================================== Nervosa Computing == == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 22:23:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA22135 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 22:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA22055; Sun, 26 May 1996 22:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA25666; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:10:38 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605270540.PAA25666@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: rackmount case info To: hardware@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:10:37 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (sorry for the spam) Last week someone asked about the rackmount cases we're using; unfortunately I accidentally diked the message. If you're still interested, please let me know and we'll talk about it offline. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 22:30:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA24311 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 22:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA24296 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 22:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA25723; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:17:15 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605270547.PAA25723@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: three stage boot again To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:17:14 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605240117.VAA03425@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from "Bill Paul" at May 23, 96 09:17:42 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Paul stands accused of saying: > > Yes, I'm still here. Good to know; thanks for doing the hard yards on this! > My problem is that the > third stage will need this disklabel information. I'm not sure if I > should somehow arrage to save this disklabel info and pass it to the > third stage or if I should make the third stage read it over again. > (It should be able to do it by itself, I suppose.) I think you're on the money here; the third stage shouldn't care how it got into memory, it should be able to derive _everything_ by examining the environment that it finds itself in on startup. (I know this means two bootp requests if it's come in from a netboot environment, but that shouldn't hurt). > -Bill > > PS: Yes, I'm having tremendous fun, dammit. Good! 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 23:37:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA07037 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 23:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA07009 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 23:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id WAA27305 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 22:54:01 -0700 Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id OAA25187; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:53:50 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:53:50 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "Louis A. Mamakos" cc: FreeBSD hackers list Subject: Re: all this talk about routers and all... In-Reply-To: <199605270438.AAA11508@whizzo.transsys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 27 May 1996, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > > Having said that, I don't want people to get the impression that this is a > > FreeBSD vs. Ascend religious war. This about making an ISDN solution with > > FreeBSD. > > > > Ascend just naturally comes up as a benchmark but I don't think > > its necessary for the advocates of Ascend to defend it unless there is > > blatant misinformation posted in this mailing list. > > The major point not really discussed if you're making a comparison is > the fact that you can install V.34 digital modems in an Ascend > solution, and use the same ISDN PRI facility to service both callers > with V.32/V.32bis/V.34 modems, as well as callers with ISDN TAs or > doing synchronous PPP on an 64 kb/s B channel. This would require specialized hardware to do with a PC so I don't think it should be a primary focus. Any software work that is done should probably have some hooks to do this in the future if such hardware were to become available. > > I'm interested in seeing something work with FreeBSD because Net/3 is > > world class code, the radix trie stuff makes routing very efficient. > > Maybe some of van Jacobson's post Net/3 research on large contiguous > > buffers will find it's way into BSD when the cost of RAM becomes less of > > an issue. > > I think the real software issue isn't really the IP forwarding > function which is done pretty well well in FreeBSD. It's likely not > "complicated" routing, as you can cobble stuff together using gated. > This code is pretty mature in the FreeBSD environment. The > difficultly faced is building a ISDN signalling stack to run on the D > channel and talk to the switch. This is where a bunch of emperical > knowledge and experence has made an Ascend platform a good choice in > many environments. I meant to say that the IP forwarding is a non-issue because we have something very good already. I agree that the ISDN knowhow is the biggest value-add that Ascend has and they rightly deserve to profit from it. I think there are a significant amount of people that would like to see a FreeBSD box plus ISDN card solution. > You'll need a Q.920/Q.921 LAPD level-2 protocol to run on the 64kb/s D > channel to carry frame back and forth between the ISDN terminal and > the switch. Certainly the HDLC implementation would be done in the > hardware interface, but there are also some higher-level X.25-like > transport stuff going on in here, too. > > Then you'll need a Q.930/Q.931 level-3 protocol stack for actually > communicating call processing events between the switch and the ISDN > terminal. I believe this is where you'll find a variety of different, > switch-specific implementation differences to deal with. Not to advocate monopolies, but in Japan there is only one (NTT). In the states we have ATT, Northern Telecom, and others. I'm not sure what they have in Europe. I imported a DigiBoard BRI card a while back and it had an NTT configuration built in. I don't know how much work this is. > I think this is where the real challange is. Once you've managed to > get the ISDN call running, you can hack it into your existing PPP > stack without huge differences and away you go. That why I was > interested in what sort of software development kits might be > available, and the status of the drivers. My past experience has been > that there are no real freely available ISDN signalling stacks > available, so either you roll your own from scratch or license it from > someone else. I think the Ascend gurus were ex-hayes people and have been working with digital technologies for a long time before they started Ascend so it would probably be difficult to find people that can match their experience. Greg and a group of guys in Germany have been working with other ISDN cards so it would probably be a good idea to look at what they've done so far. -mike hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun May 26 23:49:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA09153 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 23:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA09137 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 23:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rbezuide@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA11537; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:48:51 +0200 (SAT) From: R Bezuidenhout Message-Id: <199605270648.IAA11537@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: Panic: route add -net !! To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:48:51 +0200 (SAT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9605241548.AA27588@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from Garrett Wollman at "May 24, 96 11:48:11 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL16 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Garrett > > /etc/hosts > > 12.12.12.12 ddd.csir.co.za ddd > > 13.13.13.0 ccc.csir.co.za ccc > > > duzi# route add -net ccc ddd > > > This causes the system to panic. > > This is clearly a bug, although how easy it may be to fix is unclear. > It would be of considerable value if you could use the `-v' option to > `route' so that it's possible to see precisely what is being sent down > the routing socket. And if you could compile with debugging, a > backtrace (from either DDB or gdb on the core dump) would also be > tremendously helpful. > > This bug may actually be related to another one which was submitted > some months ago. > Kernel debug backtrace .... duzi# gdb -k kernel.0 vmcore.0 GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.13 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1994 Free Software Foundation, Inc...(no debugging symbols found)... IdlePTD 1b2000 current pcb at 1a0e38 panic: page fault #0 0xf0167d77 in boot () (kgdb) bt #0 0xf0167d77 in boot () #1 0xf010d483 in panic () #2 0xf016ff2e in trap_fatal () #3 0xf016faa0 in trap_pfault () #4 0xf016f73f in trap () #5 0xf01656c1 in calltrap () #6 0xf0134637 in rtrequest () #7 0xf0134de9 in route_output () #8 0xf0133c02 in raw_usrreq () #9 0xf0134baa in route_usrreq () #10 0xf0117142 in sosend () #11 0xf010f6e5 in soo_write () #12 0xf010e856 in write () #13 0xf0170197 in syscall () #14 0xf016570b in Xsyscall () #15 0x2955 in ?? () #16 0x1a9d in ?? () #17 0x10d3 in ?? () I had to use gdb to get the -v option to print everything, otherwise the system panics before it gets to print everything :) (gdb) run -v add -net ddd 12.12.12.12 Starting program: /ns/admin/bugs/route -v add -net ddd 12.12.12.12 u: inet 146.64.54.20; u: inet 12.12.12.12; RTM_ADD: Add Route: len 124, pid: 0, seq 1, errno 0, flags: locks: inits: sockaddrs: ddd.ac.za 12.12.12.12 ### A Panic follows ### With the route add that uses only IP numbers there is a extra entry NETMASK in the list sockaddrs. I hope this helps ... :) Reinier -- ######################################################################## # # # Reinier Bezuidenhout Company: Mikomtek CSIR, ZA # # # # Network Engineer - NetSec development team # # # # Current Projects: NetSec - Secure Platform firewall system # # http://www.mikom.csir.co.za # # # # E-mail: rbezuide@mikom.csir.co.za # # # ######################################################################## From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 00:36:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA18512 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA18490 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cesium.clock.org (cesium.clock.org [17.255.4.43]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA27874 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:20:45 -0700 Received: by cesium.clock.org id <119171-29766>; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:20:42 -0800 From: Sean Doran To: dennis@etinc.com Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) Cc: hackers@Freebsd.org Message-Id: <96May27.002042pdt.119171-29766+24@cesium.clock.org> Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 00:20:34 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@Freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Dennis writes: | your (ridiculous) allusion to the "Sun Sparc" is a clear indication | that you just dont get it. Actually, I only mention this because the largest dialup ISP in the U.K. (and quite likely all of Europe) use Sun SPARCs running NetBSD as routers, and in the NetBSD world make much of this whenever the word Cisco is mentioned. I wonder if the irony of you attacking their position as ridiculous is lost on you if you haven't seen any of the Demon folks discussing *NIX boxes vs. dedicated routers. I also wonder if you have looked at pricing out a SPARC system vs a comparably high-end built-for-reliability PC lately, particularly outside of North America or in the face of bulk and educational discounting schemes. Probably not, since I have the feeling that you have pretty heavy PC blinders on, and might not agree that there are non-PC workstations of many flavours which make perfectly adequate IPv4 routers running a freely available OS with source code. Maybe this is because you sell a product which seems to be designed for PCs, and aren't aware of alternative systems -- some with more than 32 bits and much better price/performance ratios as mid-to-high-end routers in comparison with dedicated counterparts than one can get out of high-end PCs. Of course, now that you've correctly identified me as someone who just doesn't get it, I think I shall happily point out (again) that I was largely agreeing with you about the dedicated router vs. *NIX low-end argument, but correcting your rather seriously mistaken assertions about Cisco's IOS and mid-end-and-up dedicated routers. I think that if you do some slight digging you might find out that with respect to cisco products, I generally do know what I'm talking about. Sean. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: PGP Public Key in ftp://ftp.sprintlink.net/engineer/smd/pgpkey iQCVAwUBMalXdUSWYarrFs6xAQHyKAP8DwGb6ghBNdEqVqoJmqU4Hz5u9TLaPEhu n6UT5aaH0O1SWNOjOujNx4HFKoLtaIqyEBXxM7lgwUFXoo/cDxMJhU7r1r6P4a6m bOyq3eaPgTUNGLl7L/rwWJHzEDj/soueVHmtDb/gsfMlhYIdiQYiwMujyeyUac5Y 1UKmMFNdiQo= =6PLq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 02:51:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA29596 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 02:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA29589 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 02:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA15404; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:51:37 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA26939; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:51:36 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA07263; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:31:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605270931.LAA07263@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: distinguish i386SX from i386DX [locore.s] To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:31:44 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: si@injapan.net (Shigeru IKEDA) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Shigeru IKEDA at "May 27, 96 07:49:44 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Shigeru IKEDA wrote: > I forgot to note the information source. > I got it from http://grafi.ii.pw.edu.pl/gbm/x86/sxdx.html. > > P.S. > Anyone try this patch? Not yet. My 386DX test box is waiting for a better disk, and i didn't get round to try it in my 386SX notebook... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 03:59:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA03474 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 03:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA03466; Mon, 27 May 1996 03:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 03:59:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199605271059.DAA03466@freefall.freebsd.org> To: jkh Subject: Re: make bug Cc: hackers Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Adam de Boor - anyone know his current email address? Try adam@geoworks.com. Adam has made non-public improvements to pmake since 4.4BSD as part of his ongoing use of pmake. Andreas Stolcke has taken up the public distribution and maintenance of pmake. You can find the latest version at ftp://ftp.icsi.berkeley.edu/pub/ai/stolcke/software/pmake-2.1.31.tar.Z From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 06:03:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA10950 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 06:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA10939 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 06:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with ESMTP id GAA16161 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 06:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA16047; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:00:22 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id PAA15960; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:00:35 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.5/keltia-uucp-2.7) id AAA19567; Mon, 27 May 1996 00:01:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199605262201.AAA19567@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: green@fang.cs.sunyit.edu (Charles Green) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 00:01:46 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605261510.LAA10532@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> from Charles Green at "May 26, 96 11:10:55 am" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2041 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Charles Green said: > A feature I'd like to see added is the ability to detect NIS and > put the new account into the NIS database. Can we say that if: 1. domainname returns a non-void value AND 2. /var/yp/DOMAINNAME exists AND 3. ypserv is running THEN YP is running and we're on the master ? -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #3: Sat May 25 15:06:58 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 08:22:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19602 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Glock.COM (root@glock.com [198.82.228.165]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA19597 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mmead@localhost) by Glock.COM (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA05548; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:22:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "matthew c. mead" Message-Id: <199605271522.LAA05548@Glock.COM> Subject: CHILD_MAX To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:22:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know why CHILD_MAX for the kernel and CHILD_MAX in the /usr/include/sys/syslimits.h are different (128 and 40 respectively)? I'm running into the problem of having too few processes available. If I redefine the define in syslimits.h to 128 will I be able to run right away, or am I correct in presuming that I'm going to have to rebuild things? What all will I have to rebuild? -matt -- Matthew C. Mead mmead@Glock.COM http://www.goof.com/~mmead/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 08:44:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20685 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20676 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA08401; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:49:14 -0400 Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:49:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199605271549.LAA08401@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Joe Greco From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Leave it to Joe to say..... >Whoopie fricking ding. I don't think anybody gives a s***. I think this about sums up this thread :-) perhaps we can get on with our lives now...... dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 09:02:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21608 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA21590; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA08426; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:08:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:08:29 -0400 Message-Id: <199605271608.MAA08426@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: ISDN Pri: Back to the subject please Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Having said that, I don't want people to get the impression that this is a >> FreeBSD vs. Ascend religious war. This about making an ISDN solution with >> FreeBSD. >You'll need a Q.920/Q.921 LAPD level-2 protocol to run on the 64kb/s D >channel to carry frame back and forth between the ISDN terminal and >the switch. Certainly the HDLC implementation would be done in the >hardware interface, but there are also some higher-level X.25-like >transport stuff going on in here, too. > >Then you'll need a Q.930/Q.931 level-3 protocol stack for actually >communicating call processing events between the switch and the ISDN >terminal. I believe this is where you'll find a variety of different, >switch-specific implementation differences to deal with. > >I think this is where the real challange is. Once you've managed to >get the ISDN call running, you can hack it into your existing PPP >stack without huge differences and away you go. That why I was >interested in what sort of software development kits might be >available, and the status of the drivers. My past experience has been >that there are no real freely available ISDN signalling stacks >available, so either you roll your own from scratch or license it from >someone else. So you write one. Big f*cking deal. If you license software you lose, cause the good stuff isnt available. It isnt any more difficult to do then anything else, except you have to come up with the bucks for a test bed. Has anyone looked into existing ISDN PRI boards with embedded code? (like ISDN systems has one). It'll cost more that SDLs board but it exists and has been shipping for awhile, plus i believe it comes with code and a usable API (not sure how much of it is OS level). I've thought about it myself but Im up to my elbows at this point.....not to bad mouth my competitors too much but they've never written a usable protocol stack and aren't likely to be much help in writing a driver, so the task might be excruciating. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 09:14:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22580 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22575 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA08447; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:21:01 -0400 Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:21:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199605271621.MAA08447@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Sean Doran From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Doran writes... > >Dennis writes: >| your (ridiculous) allusion to the "Sun Sparc" is a clear indication >| that you just dont get it. > >Actually, I only mention this because the largest dialup >ISP in the U.K. (and quite likely all of Europe) use Sun >SPARCs running NetBSD as routers, and in the NetBSD world >make much of this whenever the word Cisco is mentioned. > >I wonder if the irony of you attacking their position as >ridiculous is lost on you if you haven't seen any of the >Demon folks discussing *NIX boxes vs. dedicated routers. > >I also wonder if you have looked at pricing out a SPARC >system vs a comparably high-end built-for-reliability PC >lately, particularly outside of North America or in the >face of bulk and educational discounting schemes. Well, I was talking about price/performance and modularity. How much is a Sparc with 32Meg and dual T1s and Dual Fast Ethernets anyways? Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 09:15:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22673 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22639 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id SAA24106; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:15:20 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id SAA29977; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:15:20 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA00854; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:03:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605271603.SAA00854@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: CHILD_MAX To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 18:03:30 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: mmead@Glock.COM (matthew c. mead) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605271522.LAA05548@Glock.COM> from "matthew c. mead" at "May 27, 96 11:22:31 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As matthew c. mead wrote: > Does anyone know why CHILD_MAX for the kernel and CHILD_MAX > in the /usr/include/sys/syslimits.h are different (128 and 40 > respectively)? I'm running into the problem of having too few > processes available. If I redefine the define in syslimits.h to > 128 will I be able to run right away, or am I correct in > presuming that I'm going to have to rebuild things? What all > will I have to rebuild? The correct way is options "CHILD_MAX=128" and rebuild the kernel. I've once got the idea to make this limit dynamic, depending on the size of the machine (amount of physical memory, speed of CPU), since it's mostly there to prevent denial of resource attacks (like the ``fork trap''). The current static limit doesn't fullfill this, it's too high for a 386/16 w/ 4 MB RAM, and far too low for wcarchive. Nobody (including me) ever got round to implement this however. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 09:32:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23598 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Glock.COM (root@glock.com [198.82.228.165]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23565 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mmead@localhost) by Glock.COM (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA05895; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:31:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "matthew c. mead" Message-Id: <199605271631.MAA05895@Glock.COM> Subject: Re: CHILD_MAX To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605271603.SAA00854@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 27, 96 06:03:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > As matthew c. mead wrote: > > Does anyone know why CHILD_MAX for the kernel and CHILD_MAX > > in the /usr/include/sys/syslimits.h are different (128 and 40 > > respectively)? I'm running into the problem of having too few > > processes available. If I redefine the define in syslimits.h to > > 128 will I be able to run right away, or am I correct in > > presuming that I'm going to have to rebuild things? What all > > will I have to rebuild? > The correct way is > options "CHILD_MAX=128" > and rebuild the kernel. I thought I'd seen someone say that this didn't work. Are you sure that CHILD_MAX=128 in the kernel is not the default? Does syslimits.h really not need to be changed from 40? > I've once got the idea to make this limit dynamic, depending on the > size of the machine (amount of physical memory, speed of CPU), since > it's mostly there to prevent denial of resource attacks (like the > ``fork trap''). The current static limit doesn't fullfill this, it's > too high for a 386/16 w/ 4 MB RAM, and far too low for wcarchive. > Nobody (including me) ever got round to implement this however. Hmm. How difficult an undertaking is it? -matt -- Matthew C. Mead mmead@Glock.COM http://www.goof.com/~mmead/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 09:58:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25023 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irbs.irbs.com ([199.182.75.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25015 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 09:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jc@localhost) by irbs.irbs.com (8.7.5/8.6.6) id MAA02310; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:55:17 -0400 (EDT) From: John Capo Message-Id: <199605271655.MAA02310@irbs.irbs.com> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Cc: green@fang.cs.sunyit.edu, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605262201.AAA19567@keltia.freenix.fr> from Ollivier Robert at "May 27, 96 00:01:46 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ollivier Robert writes: > It seems that Charles Green said: > > A feature I'd like to see added is the ability to detect NIS and > > put the new account into the NIS database. > > Can we say that if: > > 1. domainname returns a non-void value AND > 2. /var/yp/DOMAINNAME exists AND > 3. ypserv is running > > THEN YP is running and we're on the master ? > No, you could be on a slave server. I'm not sure how to tell the difference. John Capo From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 11:11:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA00440 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00420 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA03085; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:09:15 -0400 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199605271809.OAA03085@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: three stage boot again To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605270547.PAA25723@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 27, 96 03:17:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the world, Michael Smith had to walk into mine and say: > Bill Paul stands accused of saying: > > > > Yes, I'm still here. > > Good to know; thanks for doing the hard yards on this! In the end, it turned out not to be that hard. Of course, it took me a while to get to the end. [chop] > I think you're on the money here; the third stage shouldn't care how it > got into memory, it should be able to derive _everything_ by examining the > environment that it finds itself in on startup. Well, it turns out that it can read the disklabel by itself. The problem I had was that I initially just declared a struct disklabel as a buffer, but that didn't work. Later I just left space in start.S for the disklabel buffer, just like the original start.S does, and that worked fine. > (I know this means two bootp requests if it's come in from a netboot > environment, but that shouldn't hurt). Unfortunately, I'm not making much headway with integrating netboot. I _did_ manage to get the original mach_kboot program to work properly, and it has support for loading a kernel over the net. (This was just a matter of taking the startup routine that I'd created for the biosboot program and grafting it onto the mach_kboot program. Mach_kboot also uses a slightly different segment descriptor table layout, so I had to sweak the segment selector values a little, but now that I've figured out how they're supposed to work it was simple to do.) But when I tried grafting the netboot and biosboot programs together, the resulting program would not run correctly. Biosboot works fine as a standalone program. Biosboot+netboot just explodes on entry and the machine reboots. I'm not quite sure why this happens. One problem is that there are some duplicated functions; for example, both programs have their own printf()s, their own real_to_prot()s and print_to_real()s, and a few other things. I may have to tinker a bit more before I find the right mixture. Another problem, which could be tough to overcome, is that the biosboot program's bss section is actually quite large. This is because it delcares a lot of large buffers for disk I/O. One of them is a read-ahead buffer which takes up 9K, then there are several 8K buffers for some of the ufs support code. The first image that I linked with the netboot code included had text, data and bss sections that added up to over 70K. This easily exceeds the 64K limit. Curiously, even when I got rid of the read ahead buffer and its associated code, which brought the total just under 64K, it still didn't work. It looks as though the program is successfully jumping to the restart location in the new boot code segment (protected mode, with an offset of 0x10000), but it blows up as soon as I try to reload the stack and data segment selectors. This would seem to indicate that maybe the descriptor table is getting scrambled somehow, but if that was the case then the intersegment jump (which also reloads the code segment selector) shouldn't have worked either. Of course, I also tried to link netboot as a standalone program all by itself, and that blew up too. *sigh* What I wouldn't give for a 386 simulator with memory and register dump capabilities. :) -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= License error: The license for this .sig file has expired. You must obtain a new license key before any more witty phrases will appear in this space. ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 11:49:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02408 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02403 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 11:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id EAA13670; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:45:27 +1000 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 04:45:27 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605271845.EAA13670@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, mmead@Glock.COM Subject: Re: CHILD_MAX Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > Does anyone know why CHILD_MAX for the kernel and CHILD_MAX >> > in the /usr/include/sys/syslimits.h are different (128 and 40 >> > respectively)? I'm running into the problem of having too few It should be the same. >> > processes available. If I redefine the define in syslimits.h to >> > 128 will I be able to run right away, or am I correct in >> > presuming that I'm going to have to rebuild things? What all >> > will I have to rebuild? Who knows? CHILD_MAX is bogus and shouldn't be used. You have to rebuild anything that actually uses it. Netscape perhaps. The bogusness is actually a littly different for foreign applications. The value of CHILD_MAX depends on the application and the foreign system's headers at the time the application was compiled. >> The correct way is >> options "CHILD_MAX=128" >> and rebuild the kernel. Incorrect. > I thought I'd seen someone say that this didn't work. >Are you sure that CHILD_MAX=128 in the kernel is not the default? >Does syslimits.h really not need to be changed from 40? Changing it in the kernel changes the default value and makes the value in syslimits.h more bogus than before. The fixed value is only correct if it is never changed. It can be changed using setrlimit(2) or using various shell limit commands. >> I've once got the idea to make this limit dynamic, depending on the >> size of the machine (amount of physical memory, speed of CPU), since It's not a limit. It is the default value for a limit. The limit is actually maxprocperuid, although getrlimit(2) reports that the maximum for the limit is initially RLIMIT_INFINITY = 0x7fffffffffffffff. Setting the limit (even to the same value) changes the maximum limit to maxprocperuid. >> it's mostly there to prevent denial of resource attacks (like the >> ``fork trap''). The current static limit doesn't fullfill this, it's >> too high for a 386/16 w/ 4 MB RAM, and far too low for wcarchive. The number of processes isn't a very good measure of the resource usage. I think I'd like per-user space (mostly swap space) and time (%cpu) resources. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 12:04:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03425 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Glock.COM (root@glock.com [198.82.228.165]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03418 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mmead@localhost) by Glock.COM (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA06684; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:04:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "matthew c. mead" Message-Id: <199605271904.PAA06684@Glock.COM> Subject: Re: CHILD_MAX To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605271845.EAA13670@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at May 28, 96 04:45:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans writes: > >> > Does anyone know why CHILD_MAX for the kernel and CHILD_MAX > >> > in the /usr/include/sys/syslimits.h are different (128 and 40 > >> > respectively)? I'm running into the problem of having too few > It should be the same. It isn't in 2.1R. > >> > processes available. If I redefine the define in syslimits.h to > >> > 128 will I be able to run right away, or am I correct in > >> > presuming that I'm going to have to rebuild things? What all > >> > will I have to rebuild? > Who knows? CHILD_MAX is bogus and shouldn't be used. You have to > rebuild anything that actually uses it. Netscape perhaps. The bogusness > is actually a littly different for foreign applications. The value of > CHILD_MAX depends on the application and the foreign system's headers > at the time the application was compiled. I thought that a system call (fork()) was the only limiting factor, and that the kernel would return an error if the user has too many processes. Am I wrong in this assumption? Does libc check before making the fork() system call? All I really want here is a simple way to increase the number of processes for a user. I'm running into the limit of 40, and I need to expand that. I don't think this should be so hard. Will changing the kernel affect things that run? Will I also have to change syslimits.h and then rebuild everything????????? > >> The correct way is > >> options "CHILD_MAX=128" > >> and rebuild the kernel. > Incorrect. > > I thought I'd seen someone say that this didn't work. > >Are you sure that CHILD_MAX=128 in the kernel is not the default? > >Does syslimits.h really not need to be changed from 40? > Changing it in the kernel changes the default value and makes the > value in syslimits.h more bogus than before. The fixed value is > only correct if it is never changed. It can be changed using > setrlimit(2) or using various shell limit commands. So should it be changed to the same thing in the kernel and syslimits.h? > >> I've once got the idea to make this limit dynamic, depending on the > >> size of the machine (amount of physical memory, speed of CPU), since > It's not a limit. It is the default value for a limit. The limit is > actually maxprocperuid, although getrlimit(2) reports that the maximum > for the limit is initially RLIMIT_INFINITY = 0x7fffffffffffffff. > Setting the limit (even to the same value) changes the maximum limit > to maxprocperuid. Well, it's *obviously* not letting me run that many processes, as I'm getting denied at 40. > >> it's mostly there to prevent denial of resource attacks (like the > >> ``fork trap''). The current static limit doesn't fullfill this, it's > >> too high for a 386/16 w/ 4 MB RAM, and far too low for wcarchive. > The number of processes isn't a very good measure of the resource usage. > I think I'd like per-user space (mostly swap space) and time (%cpu) > resources. Well, I agree with you there, but what I'm trying to find out is not what is a good resource usage algorithm, but rather, how do I allow more than 40 processes per user. -matt -- Matthew C. Mead mmead@Glock.COM http://www.goof.com/~mmead/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 12:27:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04903 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Glock.COM (root@glock.com [198.82.228.165]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04896 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mmead@localhost) by Glock.COM (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA08060; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:27:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "matthew c. mead" Message-Id: <199605271927.PAA08060@Glock.COM> Subject: more on CHILD_MAX To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:27:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I redefined CHILD_MAX to 128 in the kernel. I didn't touch the syslimits.h #define of 40. I can now run 48 processes, and when I try a 49th it says "job table full" rather than the error I got when trying the 41st which was "resource temporarily unavailable." This is all under 2.1R. Any ideas on what to do to allow more processes per user than this? The LINT file says all that is necessary is the kernel option I specified, but that appears to be wrong. Thanks in advance! -matt -- Matthew C. Mead mmead@Glock.COM http://www.goof.com/~mmead/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 12:51:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06145 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06140 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 12:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uO8K0-0004KBC; Mon, 27 May 96 12:51 PDT Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:51:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sharing a partition between Solaris & FreeBSD.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It looks like it's practical, based on experiments I performed with Zip disks, to format a HD partition (or Zip disk) with a 4.3BSD file system, and share it between FreeBSD and Solaris x86. Unfortunately, both OS's use different (incompatible) "slicing" mechanisms to put several partitions in one FDISK partition, but if you limit things to one UFS partition per filesystem, it should work, using the following /dev names: FreeBSD: /dev/sd?c /dev/sd?s?c - If you have multiple FDISK partitions on that disk Solaris: /dev/dsk/c?t?d?p? - c=controller, t=SCSI target, d=LUN, p=FDISK partition Remember, only one filesystem per FDISK partition, and you must newfs the disk with "-O" to format for 4.2/4.3BSD (or else Solaris will assume it is 4.3BSD, and corrupt it so FreeBSD can't read it correctly). Also, it seems that both OS's will need to fsck the partition to fix the summary information to their liking. Here is my plan, then. I have a 1GB SCSI disk shared between FreeBSD and Solaris. There is a lot of wasted space because neither OS can access the partitions for the other OS. Here is my plan to repartition: 1) Small FreeBSD partition just big enough for /, /usr, and /usr/X11R6. 2) Small Solaris partition just big enough for /, /usr, and OpenWindows. 3) Shared FDISK partition for swap space (32MB) 4) Shared UFS partition for home directories, /usr/freebsd.local, /usr/solaris.local, /usr/share (shared between both), /usr/src and /usr/obj for FreeBSD make worlds, and /var/mail. This way, I will have access to my home directory and mail from either OS, stuff like Emacs LISP files, man pages, and swap space are shared, and if either OS needs some amount of temporary space (e.g. /usr/obj during a make world) it is available. I don't think I'll have time to implement this today (since it will involve backing everything up, including the OS itself since I am using FreeBSD-current), so if anyone sees any problems with this scheme, or has some suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! ---Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 13:17:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07812 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA07797 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA08822; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:14:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272014.NAA08822@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:14:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, lithium@cia-g.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605250710.AAA07315@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at May 25, 96 00:10:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I was with you right up through the awk, sed, sh, grep, cut.. You > >lost me at PERL. :-) > >P.S. I'm already well on record as saying that PERL is the anti-christ > >of computer languages, so I won't belabor that point here.. :-) > > Well, I have to admit it was a stretch. But, perl *is* considered a > de facto Unix tool by most modern sysadmins. Not to mention the people who write PERL books. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 13:22:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08196 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08188 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA08835; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:16:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272016.NAA08835@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: X11R6.1 available... Should we use? To: dk@rock.lot.kiev.ua (Dmitry Kohmanyuk) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:16:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605250725.KAA29065@rock.lot.kiev.ua> from "Dmitry Kohmanyuk" at May 25, 96 10:25:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm still really curious what KOI-8 buys you that the ISO 8859 > > character set does not. > > > Maybe I'm insane, but I don't think it matters which bit pattern > > represents which character, as long as all the characters are > > there... > > it buys me reading russian-language 8-bit mail, news, and WWW pages without > installing proxies and/or local mailers which do recoding (oh, well, and > please don't tell me I should use MIME - the overall brokennsess of > character conversion support is still widespread (can mail(1) do it, e.g.? ;-)) > > remember, russian is native language for many of us; imagine you have > EBCDIC on your machine when almost everybody else uses ASCII. ;-) So you are saying that it buys you legacy apps. 8-). Personally, I'd go the recoding route... assuming all the characters are there. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 13:23:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08231 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08224 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA08845; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:19:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272019.NAA08845@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: X11R6.1 available... Should we use? To: ache@astral.msk.su (=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:19:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nnd@itfs.nsk.su, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605252333.DAA00391@astral.msk.su> from "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" at May 26, 96 03:33:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm still really curious what KOI-8 buys you that the ISO 8859 > > character set does not. > > Real common practice can't be changed and requires KOI8-R now. > It not requires 8859-5 at all, so why bother to support it? > Only because it looks "better" from someone point of view? I could make the same argument regarding i18n support, or XPG/3 or XPG/4 support, or ISO 2022 support, or ISO 10646 support... etc.: "We Americans believe everyone should use US ASCII, and if you have to learn English to do it...". It's the same argument. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 13:23:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08268 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MediaCity.com (root@easy1.mediacity.com [205.216.172.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08250; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by MediaCity.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA21234; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:22:17 -0700 From: Brian Litzinger Message-Id: <199605272022.NAA21234@MediaCity.com> Subject: Re: ISDN Pri: Back to the subject please To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605271608.MAA08426@etinc.com> from Dennis at "May 27, 96 12:08:29 pm" Reply-To: brian@MediaCity.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dennis wrote: > Has anyone looked into existing ISDN PRI boards with embedded code? > (like ISDN systems has one). It'll cost more that SDLs board but it exists > and has been shipping for awhile, plus i believe it comes with code and a > usable API (not sure how much of it is OS level). I've thought about it > myself but Im up to my elbows at this point.....not to bad mouth my > competitors too much but they've never written a usable protocol stack > and aren't likely to be much help in writing a driver, so the task might > be excruciating. I've looked into using the FutureTel Telemux (PRI/3BRI) card. ($1400 I think). But they just aren't interested in supporting it in Non-DOS environments. (actually the DOS support is lacking too.) -- Brian Litzinger Powered by FreeBSD http[s]://www.mpress.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 13:31:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08855 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08849 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA08900; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:27:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272027.NAA08900@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: green@fang.cs.sunyit.edu (Charles Green) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:27:40 -0700 (MST) Cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605261510.LAA10532@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> from "Charles Green" at May 26, 96 11:10:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A feature I'd like to see added is the ability to detect NIS and > put the new account into the NIS database. I assume you will be running this on the NIS server, then? If so, it's automatic. If not, it's not going to happen. You can't add an NIS user from anywhere but the NIS master. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 13:34:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09110 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09093 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA16893; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:32:41 +1000 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 06:32:41 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605272032.GAA16893@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu Subject: Re: three stage boot again Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Well, it turns out that it can read the disklabel by itself. The problem >I had was that I initially just declared a struct disklabel as a buffer, >but that didn't work. Later I just left space in start.S for the disklabel >buffer, just like the original start.S does, and that worked fine. This reminds me that i/o buffers must not cross a 64K boundary in case they are used for floppy i/o. This is guaranteed by putting the bootstrap on a 64K boundary and keeping it smaller than 64K. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 13:53:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10505 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10478 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA27363 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Mon, 27 May 1996 23:46:21 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Mon, 27 May 96 23:46:21 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by astral.msk.su (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA00677; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:42:41 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199605272042.AAA00677@astral.msk.su> Subject: Re: X11R6.1 available... Should we use? To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:42:41 +0400 (MSD) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nnd@itfs.nsk.su, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605272019.NAA08845@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at "May 27, 96 01:19:11 pm" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (aka Andrey A. Chernov, Black Mage) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I'm still really curious what KOI-8 buys you that the ISO 8859 > > > character set does not. > > > > Real common practice can't be changed and requires KOI8-R now. > > It not requires 8859-5 at all, so why bother to support it? > > Only because it looks "better" from someone point of view? > > I could make the same argument regarding i18n support, or XPG/3 > or XPG/4 support, or ISO 2022 support, or ISO 10646 support... > etc.: "We Americans believe everyone should use US ASCII, and > if you have to learn English to do it...". It's the same > argument. Your analogy is incorrect, I say different thing: "We Americans believe Americans should use US ASCII, and if you have to learn English to do it...". -- Andrey A. Chernov : And I rest so composedly, /Now, in my bed, ache@astral.msk.su : That any beholder /Might fancy me dead - http://dt.demos.su/~ache : Might start at beholding me, /Thinking me dead. RELCOM Team,FreeBSD Team : E.A.Poe From "For Annie" 1849 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 13:59:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10960 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10943 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 13:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA17447; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:57:04 +1000 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 06:57:04 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605272057.GAA17447@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, mmead@Glock.COM Subject: Re: more on CHILD_MAX Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, I redefined CHILD_MAX to 128 in the kernel. I didn't >touch the syslimits.h #define of 40. I can now run 48 processes, >and when I try a 49th it says "job table full" rather than the This sounds like a shell limit. Perhaps your shell believed the advertised limit of 40. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 14:06:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12042 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA12007 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA08998; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:04:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272104.OAA08998@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: regnauld@tetard.hsc.fr (Philippe Regnauld) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:04:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605251733.TAA07641@tetard.hsc.fr> from "Philippe Regnauld" at May 25, 96 07:33:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > PS: I have in mind creating a series of X admin tools with Perl/Tk > for FreeBSD. The main advantages are: easy to maintain, and easy > to adapt to other Unices (i.e.: Linux, etc.) Please do not do this. Try to think, instead, of a gramatical UI construct that can be used to build a (G)UI for any program meeting certain criteria. Specifically, it's easy to envision a user administration program that can operate in three modes: 1) Command line: % uadmin show user terry verbose NAME 'Terry Lambert' USER terry ID 501 GROUP 20 (staff) +GROUP 0 (wheel) +GROUP 552 (ncvs) HOME /home/terry SHELL /bin/csh EXPIRE PASSWORD NEVER EXPIRE ACCOUNT NEVER % 2) Interactive: % uadmin UADMIN> show user terry NAME 'Terry Lambert' USER terry ID 501 GROUP 20 (staff) HOME /home/terry SHELL /bin/csh EXPIRE PASSWORD NEVER EXPIRE ACCOUNT NEVER UADMIN> EXIT % 3) Subprocess of GUI via IPC: ,--------------------------------. | SHOW USER | ,--------------------------------. | | | Username: ____________________ | | | | | | > OK < >Cancel< >Browse...< | `--------------------------------' Clearly, 1) arguments invoke as command line 2) no arguments invoke as interarctive or UI driven a) interactive if stdin stats as tty b) UI driven if stdin stats as non-tty This implies a command parse hierarchy for the CLI and command line versions of the program: 1.0 Abstract The uadmin program implements a user administration tool. The uadmin tool is a CLI (command line interface) program which may be used to administer: o allowable shells o allowable groups o user accounts, including o user ID o login group o additional group memebrship o passwords, including o format requirements o password aging o defaults for the uadmin program, including o skeleton file directory o use of skeleton files o password assignment o default shell for new users o default group for new users o default minimum user ID for new users o default minimum group ID for new groups o status reporting, including o next available user ID greater than or equal to the minimum user ID o GUI interface definition etc. Obviously, if the GUI interface definition and the user input used a commit/cancel interaction, then it would be possible to implement dialog interactions for user input in the UI case: UADMIN> BEGIN ADD USER UADMIN] NAME 'Terry Lambert' UADMIN] USER terry UADMIN] ID 501 UADMIN] GROUP 20 UADMIN] +GROUP 0 UADMIN] +GROUP 552 UADMIN] HOME /home/terry UADMIN] SHELL /bin/csh UADMIN] EXPIRE PASSWORD NEVER UADMIN] EXPIRE ACCOUNT NEVER UADMIN] END ACCEPT UADMIN> Each time the 'name' field changed, for instance: UADMIN> BEGIN ADD USER UADMIN] NAME 'Terry' UADMIN] USER terry UADMIN] ID 501 UADMIN] GROUP 20 UADMIN] +GROUP 0 UADMIN] +GROUP 552 UADMIN] NAME 'Lambert' UADMIN] HOME /home/terry UADMIN] SHELL /bin/csh UADMIN] NAME 'Terry Lambert' UADMIN] EXPIRE PASSWORD NEVER UADMIN] EXPIRE ACCOUNT NEVER UADMIN] END ACCEPT UADMIN> And then the current record is committed/uncommitted as an agregate: UADMIN] END ACCEPT UADMIN] END CANCEL The point being that you could compartmentalize a dialog that way rather easily, such that the GUI program would not need to have specific knowledge of what command line utility it was to be used for. Pretty obviously, the same GUI or text UI (both should be provided) could be used to do disk partitioning, or whatever, as long as the utility being front-ended provided the interagtion grammar via a standard interaction mechanism to the (G)UI. Obviously, there needs to be the concept of "environment" and "get default from environment", with the environent maintained by the utility being fronted, and not the front end itself. For instance, ID probably wants to be defaulted to 'NEXT_UNUSED_ID' from the utility environment, etc.. It's a pretty obvious dialog interaction model, if you think about it, and it prevents spreading the maintenance hassle over a potentially large number of programs, which may or may not be correctly synced. For a good start on the uadmin utility: makefile: ========================================================================== LEX= lex -l YACC= yacc CFLAGS= -DYYDEBUG=1 YSRC= uadmin.y LSRC= uadmin.l P1= uadmin P1SRCS= y.tab.c lex.yy.c defaults.c users.c groups.c P1OBJS= $(P1SRCS:.c=.o) all: $(P1) $(P1): $(P1OBJS) $(CC) -o $@ $> -lln -ly y.tab.c y.tab.h: $(YSRC) $(YACC) -d $> lex.yy.c: $(LSRC) $(LEX) $> clean: @rm -f $(P1) $(P1OBJS) clobber: clean @rm -f y.tab.c lex.yy.c ========================================================================== uadmin.l: ========================================================================== %{ #include "y.tab.h" #include #include extern double vbltable[ 26]; %} %% show { return SHOW; } nextuid { return NEXTUID; } group { return GROUP; } user { return USER; } default { return DEFAULT; } verbose { return VERBOSE; } [A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9]* { yylval.sval = strdup(yytext); return NAME; } [0-9]* { yylval.ival = atoi(yytext); return NUM; } ([0-9]+|([0-9]*\.[0.9]+)([eE][-+]?[0-9]+)?) { yylval.dval = atof(yytext); return NUMBER; } [ \t] ; /* ignore whitespace*/ [a-z] { yylval.vblno = yytext[0] - 'a'; return XNAME; } "$" { return 0; /* end of input*/ } \n | . { return yytext[ 0]; } %% ========================================================================== uadmin.y ========================================================================== %{ /* * This file is machine generated. */ %} %union { char *sval; int ival; } %token NUMBER %token NUM %type vopt %token SHOW %token NEXTUID %token GROUP %token USER %token DEFAULT %token VERBOSE %token NAME %left '-' '+' %left '*' '/' %nonassoc UMINUS %type expression %% session: prompt_statement | session prompt_statement ; prompt_statement: statement '\n' { prompt(); } ; statement: /* nothing*/ | show_expr /* | expression { printf("= %g\n", $1); }*/ ; show_expr: SHOW NEXTUID { nextuid_show(); } | SHOW USER NAME vopt { user_show_name( $3, $4); } | SHOW USER NUM vopt { user_show_num( $3, $4); } | SHOW USER '*' vopt { user_show_all( $4); } | SHOW GROUP NAME vopt { group_show_name( $3, $4); } | SHOW GROUP NUM vopt { group_show_num( $3, $4); } | SHOW GROUP '*' vopt { group_show_all( $4); } | SHOW DEFAULT NAME { default_show_name( $3); } | SHOW DEFAULT '*' { default_show_all(); } ; vopt: /* empty*/ { $$ = 0; } | VERBOSE { $$ = 1; } expression: expression '+' expression { $$ = $1 + $3; } | expression '-' expression { $$ = $1 - $3; } | expression '*' expression { $$ = $1 * $3; } | expression '/' expression { if( $3 == 0.0) yyerror("divide by zero"); else $$ = $1 / $3; } | '-' expression %prec UMINUS { $$ = -$2; } | '(' expression ')' { $$ = $2; } | NUMBER ; %% void yyerror(s) const char *s; { printf("%s\n", s); } void prompt(void) { printf( "UADMIN> "); } int main( int ac, char **av) { prompt(); while( yyparse()) { /* syntax error*/ continue; } printf( "\n"); return 0; } ========================================================================== defaults.c ========================================================================== /* * defaults.c * * Routines to display and modify the program defaults */ void default_show_name( char *str) { printf( "default by name '%s'\n", str); } void default_show_all( void) { printf( "all defaults\n"); } void nextuid_show( void) { printf( "the next uid is ???\n"); } /* * EOF -- This file has not been truncated */ ========================================================================== groups.c ========================================================================== /* * groups.c * * Routines to display and modify the group database */ void group_show_name( char *str, int verbose) { printf( "group by name '%s' %s\n", str, verbose ? "verbose" : "terse"); free( str); /* was strdup'ed by lex*/ } void group_show_num( int num, int verbose) { printf( "group by num '%d' %s\n", num, verbose ? "verbose" : "terse"); } void group_show_all( int verbose) { printf( "all groups %s\n", verbose ? "verbose" : "terse"); } /* * EOF -- This file has not been truncated */ ========================================================================== users.c ========================================================================== /* * users.c * * Routines to display and modify the user database */ #include #include /* NGROUPS*/ #include #include #include char * expire_time( time_t *timep) { return( "NEVER"); } char * groupname( int gid) { struct group *groupp; if( ( groupp = getgrgid( gid)) == NULL) return( "gr_name); } void user_show( struct passwd *userp, int verbose) { int groups[ NGROUPS ]; int ngroups = NGROUPS; int i; printf( "NAME '%s'\n", userp->pw_gecos); printf( "USER %s\n", userp->pw_name); printf( "ID %d\n", userp->pw_uid); if( verbose && userp->pw_passwd[ 0] != '*') { printf( "PASSWORD '%s'\n", userp->pw_passwd); } printf( "GROUP %d (%s)\n", userp->pw_gid, groupname( userp->pw_gid)); if( verbose && getgrouplist( userp->pw_name, userp->pw_gid, groups, &ngroups) != -1) { for( i = 0; i < ngroups; i++) { if( groups[ i] == userp->pw_gid) continue; /* skip default*/ printf( "+GROUP %d (%s)\n", groups[ i], groupname( groups[ i])); } } printf( "HOME %s\n", userp->pw_dir); printf( "SHELL %s\n", userp->pw_shell); printf( "EXPIRE PASSWORD %s\n", expire_time(&userp->pw_change)); printf( "EXPIRE ACCOUNT %s\n", expire_time(&userp->pw_expire)); } void user_show_name( char *str, int verbose) { struct passwd *userp; printf( "user by name '%s' %s\n", str, verbose ? "verbose" : "terse"); if( ( userp = getpwnam( str)) == NULL) { printf( "No such user '%s'\n", str); goto error; } user_show( userp, verbose); error: free( str); /* was strdup'ed by lex*/ } void user_show_num( int num, int verbose) { struct passwd *userp; printf( "user by num '%d' %s\n", num, verbose ? "verbose" : "terse"); if( ( userp = getpwuid( num)) == NULL) { printf( "No such user '%d'\n", num); goto error; } user_show( userp, verbose); error: return; } void user_show_all( int verbose) { printf( "all users %s\n", verbose ? "verbose" : "terse"); } /* * EOF -- This file has not been truncated */ ========================================================================== Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 14:08:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12286 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12204 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id VAA02539; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:45:22 +0100 (BST) To: Sean Doran cc: dennis@etinc.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 May 1996 00:20:34 -0800." <96May27.002042pdt.119171-29766+24@cesium.clock.org> Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 21:45:21 +0100 Message-ID: <2537.833229921@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Doran wrote in message ID <96May27.002042pdt.119171-29766+24@cesium.clock.org>: > Actually, I only mention this because the largest dialup > ISP in the U.K. (and quite likely all of Europe) use Sun > SPARCs running NetBSD as routers, and in the NetBSD world > make much of this whenever the word Cisco is mentioned. > I wonder if the irony of you attacking their position as > ridiculous is lost on you if you haven't seen any of the > Demon folks discussing *NIX boxes vs. dedicated routers. Since you are talking about Demon Internet, I think that unless they've changed router policy lately, that their core routers are PC's, not SPARCS (by core I mean the major decision makers, not the border routers or other ``dumb'' internal routers that use default routing). They used to use SPARC's for dial-in terminal servers, but I think most of them are now retired from that duty to be replaced with dedicated dial in hardware. (Unfortunately, you are right about one thing .. they do use NetBSD) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 14:16:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13576 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13569 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA09039; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:14:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272114.OAA09039@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: MS Mail gateway To: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:14:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Bob Bishop" at May 26, 96 05:02:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Apologies for hitting the list with this one, but I bet someone here has a > good answer. > > Anyone know of a way of gatewaying mail from MS Mail on a WFWG or Win95 > workgroup to the Real World, which doesn't rely on Win NT/MS Exchange > Server or that nasty old DOS-based SMTP gateway? Thanks in advance... I saw something to do this on usenet about 8 months ago in one of the sources groups (might have been alt.sources. I didn't save it because I never intend to run MS Mail or to help someone else run it (directly, anyway, as this message attests 8-)). You might be able to find it on one of the big source archives, either gatekeeper.dec.com or wuarchive.wustl.edu. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 14:18:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13863 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sparcy42 (Sparcy42.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.215.102]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13848 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by Sparcy42 id AA10020 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@freebsd.org); Mon, 27 May 1996 23:17:18 +0200 Message-Id: <199605272117.AA10020@Sparcy42> From: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 23:17:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: Tomas Klockar "Re: SCSI hostadapter" (May 24, 7:51) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(2) 7/9/95) To: Tomas Klockar Subject: Re: SCSI hostadapter Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On May 24, 7:51, Tomas Klockar wrote: } Subject: Re: SCSI hostadapter } According to Terry Lambert: } > > I have a SCSI host adapter which I would like to use in freebsd } > > The brand is NexStor NXT-82 } > > Its a VL-Bus FAST SCSI-2 Host adapter } > > Its using a a NCR 53C700-66 curcuit } > > It memorymaps the data. } >=20 } > I believe the NCR 53c7xx series (I don't recognize the "53C700-66" } > in particular, though) are not supported because they are very } > low end components, for which no one has written a driver. } >=20 } > These are the same chips in AMD SCSI/Net ethernet/SCSI chips on } > the motherboard of some Compaq systems. } >=20 } > You should use another card (~US$75 for an NCR 8xx series, one } > of the best available), or write a driver (for which you will need } > another working machine, or another card, and docs for the 7xx } > chips; on the plus side, yyou should be able to use the 8xx } > driver as a template). } } I looked around last night and linux seems to have support for this chip } and all the other 7xx so i got all thier source for it, but i still could= } =20 } need some help while writing a deviced driver. No! Linux does not support the 53c700, though it knows about the 53c710. (Support for the 53c710 could be added to FreeBSD with little effort, too.) The 700 is a very early version with reduced capabilities. It is far inferior to the 710 (and the 810), and though the latter are upwards compatible to the 700, the 700 will need several driver changes to be supported by the NCR driver in either *BSD or Linux. } I just think it's better to suport as many cards as its possible to. Yes, sure. But since these 53c700 controllers have been used only in very few PC systems (mostly in the i386 time frame), it is hardly worth the effort. Regards, STefan -- Stefan Esser, Zentrum fuer Paralleles Rechnen Tel: +49 221 4706021 Universitaet zu Koeln, Weyertal 80, 50931 Koeln FAX: +49 221 4705160 ============================================================================== http://www.zpr.uni-koeln.de/~se From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 14:26:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14689 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14680 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA09092; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:24:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272124.OAA09092@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:24:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605270003.UAA16209@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 26, 96 08:03:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Any thoughts on writing a poll() which allows a variable number of bits > > passed in the fd_set (or new) structure to get around FD_SETSIZE limits > > Poll is (finally) specified in Spec1170 and it doesn't use bits in an > fd_set. If you want a system call that does this, don't call it poll. And if you want a poll() system call that has beeter than 10ms timer resoloution, don't call it poll(). The select() call *does* have some advantages over poll(), still. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 14:29:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15070 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15061; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA09109; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:26:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272126.OAA09109@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Re(2): SCSI hostadapter To: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:26:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <"1443-960526225554-A900*/G=Andrew/S=Gordon/O=NET-TEL Computer from "Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk" at May 27, 96 01:30:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Reminds me: does anybody have any information about the 53C400? > > > > I've got a couple of these boards sitting on a shelf, they used to > > accompany HP ScanJets. I don't think they will be anything that can > > be called performant, but just out of curiosity... Perhaps they are > > good enough to recommend them to someone who needs an adapter for an > > Archive Viper 150 or so (which i'd recommend rather than those floppy > > tape crap). > > As it happens, I was trying to put a system together yesterday, using mostly old junk I had lying around. Since I didn't care about disc performance, and I had an old SCSI drive plus a 53C400 adapter handy, I thought I would use those (booting off floppy with some suitably hacked bootblocks). > > The adapter originally came with a scanner, (but not an HP one) and contains just the 53C400 plus an LS245 buffering the databus and some SCSI termination resnets. Curiously, the nca driver probes the card as a NCR-5380 despite the fact that the chip on the card is clearly labelled as a 53C400A. However, hacking the driver to probe only for 53C400 (it normally probes 5380 first) caused the card not to be probed at all. > > This particular card does not support interrupts (it doesn't even have any fingers on the connector for any of the IRQ lines). > > For the hard drive, it seems to work reliably, but is _very_ slow - here are some bonnie results (and results for the same motherboard/drive but with a 2940 instead, for comparison): > > -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- > -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- > MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU > ncr 16 105 89.0 110 10.8 55 1.3 109 8.4 111 5.5 9.6 8.7 > 2940 16 560 28.4 553 7.7 266 6.5 612 28.7 605 8.3 24.8 3.8 > > (the drive is an old SCSI-1 device, async transfers only. CPU is AMD 486/100). This is typically an artifact of having the interrupt set incorrectly. I'd caution you that it's also possible that it's just a dog-slow interface, so there may be nothing to be done about it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 14:36:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16230 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16216 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA09137; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:34:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272134.OAA09137@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Sharing a partition between Solaris & FreeBSD.. To: jehamby@lightside.com (Jake Hamby) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:34:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Jake Hamby" at May 27, 96 12:51:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It looks like it's practical, based on experiments I performed with Zip > disks, to format a HD partition (or Zip disk) with a 4.3BSD file system, > and share it between FreeBSD and Solaris x86. Unfortunately, both OS's > use different (incompatible) "slicing" mechanisms to put several > partitions in one FDISK partition, but if you limit things to one UFS > partition per filesystem, it should work, using the following /dev names: This was, in fact, my #1 motivation for wanting physical-to-logical device drivers implemented in the DEVFS implementation space. I must admit that I wanted it for the OSF/1 disklabel, and the IBM JFS code I've been hacking on off and on for the PPC port, but the principle is the same. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 14:38:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16456 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sparcy42 (Sparcy42.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.215.102]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16446 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 14:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by Sparcy42 id AA10042 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@freebsd.org); Mon, 27 May 1996 23:31:18 +0200 Message-Id: <199605272131.AA10042@Sparcy42> From: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 23:31:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert "Re: SCSI hostadapter" (May 23, 15:13) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(2) 7/9/95) To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: SCSI hostadapter Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On May 23, 15:13, Terry Lambert wrote: } Subject: Re: SCSI hostadapter } > I have a SCSI host adapter which I would like to use in freebsd } > The brand is NexStor NXT-82 } > Its a VL-Bus FAST SCSI-2 Host adapter } > Its using a a NCR 53C700-66 curcuit } > It memorymaps the data. } } I believe the NCR 53c7xx series (I don't recognize the "53C700-66" } in particular, though) are not supported because they are very } low end components, for which no one has written a driver. Hmmm, sorry, no, not really ;-) The 53c7xx family consists of the 700, which is the ancestor of all 7xx and 8xx chips. It has a smaller instruction set and lacks support for somce features, that had been added in the 710. (Most significantly the INTFLY, which lets the 53c710 and later continue processing after issuing an interrupt to the host CPU. The 700 stops on every interrupt, and waits for the CPU to restart it. The INTFLY feature is used to make the CPU poll for completed commands, while the NCR already talks to the next SCSI target.) } These are the same chips in AMD SCSI/Net ethernet/SCSI chips on } the motherboard of some Compaq systems. Umm, no, sorry. The decice in the AMD Combo chip seems to be based on the 53c90, but I have never actually seen a data book on it. But I know that it also lacks an INTFLY capability, i.e. the CPU has to drive it as an intelligent host adapter, while the NCR 53c710 and later are real independent processors working on a closed code loop, as long as no real exception stops them and makes the CPU clean up. } You should use another card (~US$75 for an NCR 8xx series, one } of the best available), or write a driver (for which you will need } another working machine, or another card, and docs for the 7xx } chips; on the plus side, yyou should be able to use the 8xx } driver as a template). The 710 driver would need mostly changes in the probe and attach code. A driver for the 700 would need a rewrite of the code executed by the NCR chip itself and changes to the driver code executed by the host CPU. If you got PCI, the the 53c810 is a cost effective choice. If you don't, well, then I'd rather buy a used Adaptec 1542 or some compatible BusLogic than spend hundreds of hours on a driver for obsolete hardware. There have been a total of four requests for a 53c7x0 driver over the last two years ... Regards, STefan -- Stefan Esser, Zentrum fuer Paralleles Rechnen Tel: +49 221 4706021 Universitaet zu Koeln, Weyertal 80, 50931 Koeln FAX: +49 221 4705160 ============================================================================== http://www.zpr.uni-koeln.de/~se From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 15:03:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18617 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18610 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA09188; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:00:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605272200.PAA09188@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: X11R6.1 available... Should we use? To: ache@astral.msk.su (=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 15:00:15 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nnd@itfs.nsk.su, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605272042.AAA00677@astral.msk.su> from "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" at May 28, 96 00:42:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Real common practice can't be changed and requires KOI8-R now. > > > It not requires 8859-5 at all, so why bother to support it? > > > Only because it looks "better" from someone point of view? > > > > I could make the same argument regarding i18n support, or XPG/3 > > or XPG/4 support, or ISO 2022 support, or ISO 10646 support... > > etc.: "We Americans believe everyone should use US ASCII, and > > if you have to learn English to do it...". It's the same > > argument. > > Your analogy is incorrect, I say different thing: > > "We Americans believe Americans should use US ASCII, and > if you have to learn English to do it...". ================================================================== On the language bigotry of everyone, Americans in particular ================================================================== "We Americans" are pretty much serious language bigots; nearly as bad as those in France (no non-French words need apply) and Japan (use this Kana alphabet instead of that Kana alphabet if you are going to spell foreign words), and any other country you happen to name (I just picked France and Japan because they seem to be the most famous examples). Ask any US programmer who has studied the problem: the American lead in software technology over Japan is almost *soley* attributable to the fact that the Japanese aren't willing to give up Kanji for Kana, and thus fit their language into 8 bits, and all the characters in their language onto a keyboard without 33,000 keys (or worse, chording). With the increasing reliability of voice and symbolic (pen, etc.) input, "We Americans" will soon be losing our lead... ideogrammatic languages beat out alphabetic languages for information density any day. How many English sentences can you fit into 16 8-bit characters worth of bits? It turns out *everyone* is pretty much a language bigot... that was my point, that the use of the legacy KOI8-R was an issue of language bigotry more than anything else. Which is fine, as long as you are willing to admit it, and accept the limits that that imposes on you as a result of accepting it. Just like US proposals for runic encoding are anti-i18n 8 bit storage... want an English "#" sign? It will cost you two characters in storage and the relationship between file size and character count. Want to use your existing data in a UTF system? Recode it. Etc.. That's what I call language bigotry. God help you if you have characters, like Icelandic "Thorn" and "Eth" which don't fit into a 7 bit NRCS. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- You say to.ma.to \t*-'ma-t-(.)o-, -*(-w), -'ma:t-\, ... --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 15:12:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA20354 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (root@zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA20344 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.2) with ESMTP id AAA22820; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:12:08 +0200 From: Tomas Klockar Received: (dateck@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA04240; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:11:40 +0200 Message-Id: <199605272211.AAA04240@father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: Re: SCSI hostadapter To: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:11:40 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dateck@ludd.luth.se, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605272117.AA10020@Sparcy42> from Stefan Esser at "May 27, 96 11:17:18 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Stefan Esser: > On May 24, 7:51, Tomas Klockar wrote: > } Subject: Re: SCSI hostadapter > } According to Terry Lambert: > } > > I have a SCSI host adapter which I would like to use in freebsd > } > > The brand is NexStor NXT-82 > } > > Its a VL-Bus FAST SCSI-2 Host adapter > } > > Its using a a NCR 53C700-66 curcuit > } > > It memorymaps the data. > } >=20 > } > I believe the NCR 53c7xx series (I don't recognize the "53C700-66" > } > in particular, though) are not supported because they are very > } > low end components, for which no one has written a driver. > } >=20 > } > These are the same chips in AMD SCSI/Net ethernet/SCSI chips on > } > the motherboard of some Compaq systems. > } >=20 > } > You should use another card (~US$75 for an NCR 8xx series, one > } > of the best available), or write a driver (for which you will need > } > another working machine, or another card, and docs for the 7xx > } > chips; on the plus side, yyou should be able to use the 8xx > } > driver as a template). > } > } I looked around last night and linux seems to have support for this chip > } and all the other 7xx so i got all thier source for it, but i still could= > } =20 > } need some help while writing a deviced driver. > > No! > > Linux does not support the 53c700, > though it knows about the 53c710. > > (Support for the 53c710 could be > added to FreeBSD with little effort, > too.) > > The 700 is a very early version > with reduced capabilities. It is > far inferior to the 710 (and the > 810), and though the latter are > upwards compatible to the 700, the > 700 will need several driver changes > to be supported by the NCR driver > in either *BSD or Linux. > > } I just think it's better to suport as many cards as its possible to. > > Yes, sure. But since these 53c700 > controllers have been used only in > very few PC systems (mostly in the > i386 time frame), it is hardly worth > the effort. It seemed that it supported that. I found several patches. Well if you say so then your probebly right. I haven't digged in to it. I have a dump of my SCSI BIOS, in both hex and assembler. One of the reasons that I don't want to dump my card is that it has very high performance. It also have cache on the board. Since its a localbus card I assumes That its atleast as fast as any PCI card. And as usual its probebly the SCSIdisc that will be to slow. It might fix itself during the summer when I would like to upgrade my computer and I need to change motherboard. Then I need a new SCSIcard. I still feel like writing a driver but I could use some help from someone. I don't have the hardware specifications on this NCR53c700-66 chip. I would appriciate if someone could help me get thoose documents. /Tomas -- Tomas Klockar can be found at the following adresses: Kårhusvägen 4, 2:43 | Furuvägen 102 | dateck@ludd.luth.se 977 54 Luleå | 871 52 Härnösand | dateck@solace.mh.se Tel: +46-920-229391 | Tel: +46-611-13393 | d94-tkl@sm.luth.se From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 15:12:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA20392 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolf.riga.lv (wolf.riga.lv [194.8.12.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20376 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stoat.riga.lv by wolf.riga.lv with SMTP id AA03465 (5.65.kiae-1 for ); Tue, 28 May 1996 00:59:21 +0300 Received: from balcom.UUCP by stoat.riga.lv with UUCP id AA01199 (5.65.kiae-1 for hackers@freefall.freebsd.org); Tue, 28 May 1996 01:04:37 +0300 Received: (from andrew@localhost) by balcom.kurz.lv (8.7.5/8.7.5) id XAA00454 for hackers@freefall.freebsd.org; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:21:35 +0300 (EET DST) From: Andrew Dolgopolov Message-Id: <199605272021.XAA00454@balcom.kurz.lv> Subject: help To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 23:21:34 +0300 (EET DST) In-Reply-To: <199605271615.JAA22682@freefall.freebsd.org> from "owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org" at May 27, 96 09:15:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ko8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk help quit -- Andrew. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 15:24:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA22695 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (root@zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22684 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 15:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.2) with ESMTP id AAA23129; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:24:25 +0200 From: Tomas Klockar Received: (dateck@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA04417; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:23:57 +0200 Message-Id: <199605272223.AAA04417@father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: Re: SCSI hostadapter To: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:23:56 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605272131.AA10042@Sparcy42> from Stefan Esser at "May 27, 96 11:31:18 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Stefan Esser: > On May 23, 15:13, Terry Lambert wrote: > } Subject: Re: SCSI hostadapter > } > I have a SCSI host adapter which I would like to use in freebsd > } > The brand is NexStor NXT-82 > } > Its a VL-Bus FAST SCSI-2 Host adapter > } > Its using a a NCR 53C700-66 curcuit > } > It memorymaps the data. > } > } I believe the NCR 53c7xx series (I don't recognize the "53C700-66" > } in particular, though) are not supported because they are very > } low end components, for which no one has written a driver. > > Hmmm, sorry, no, not really ;-) > > The 53c7xx family consists of the 700, which > is the ancestor of all 7xx and 8xx chips. It > has a smaller instruction set and lacks support > for somce features, that had been added in the > 710. (Most significantly the INTFLY, which lets > the 53c710 and later continue processing after > issuing an interrupt to the host CPU. The 700 > stops on every interrupt, and waits for the > CPU to restart it. The INTFLY feature is used > to make the CPU poll for completed commands, > while the NCR already talks to the next SCSI > target.) > > } These are the same chips in AMD SCSI/Net ethernet/SCSI chips on > } the motherboard of some Compaq systems. > > Umm, no, sorry. The decice in the AMD Combo chip > seems to be based on the 53c90, but I have never > actually seen a data book on it. But I know that > it also lacks an INTFLY capability, i.e. the CPU > has to drive it as an intelligent host adapter, > while the NCR 53c710 and later are real independent > processors working on a closed code loop, as long > as no real exception stops them and makes the CPU > clean up. > > } You should use another card (~US$75 for an NCR 8xx series, one > } of the best available), or write a driver (for which you will need > } another working machine, or another card, and docs for the 7xx > } chips; on the plus side, yyou should be able to use the 8xx > } driver as a template). > > The 710 driver would need mostly changes in the > probe and attach code. A driver for the 700 would > need a rewrite of the code executed by the NCR > chip itself and changes to the driver code executed > by the host CPU. > > If you got PCI, the the 53c810 is a cost effective > choice. If you don't, well, then I'd rather buy a > used Adaptec 1542 or some compatible BusLogic than > spend hundreds of hours on a driver for obsolete > hardware. There have been a total of four requests > for a 53c7x0 driver over the last two years ... That might be because of peoples lazyness, who might use linux instead or just go and buy a new SCSI-card. I don't think all people are on this mailinglist. It might also be that theese cards are pretty rare. The reason I'm on this list is that I couldn't find support for this card and that I belive that I have the knowledge to make a driver for it. Otherwise I would just have bought a new card. Or maybe ignored the disc since I'm using it for DOS. /Tomas -- Tomas Klockar can be found at the following adresses: Kårhusvägen 4, 2:43 | Furuvägen 102 | dateck@ludd.luth.se 977 54 Luleå | 871 52 Härnösand | dateck@solace.mh.se Tel: +46-920-229391 | Tel: +46-611-13393 | d94-tkl@sm.luth.se From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 16:04:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02879 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA02870 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA09154 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 19:11:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 19:11:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199605272311.TAA09154@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Alias IP addresses Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there a way do display all of the addresses associated with an interface? Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 16:21:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07816 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perki.connect.com.au (perki.connect.com.au [192.189.54.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA07798 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by perki.connect.com.au id JAA10603 (8.7.5/IDA-1.6); Tue, 28 May 1996 09:21:04 +1000 (EST) >Received: from localhost (giles@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nemeton.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA15677; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:34:29 +1000 Message-Id: <199605272234.IAA15677@nemeton.com.au> To: Michael Smith cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: three stage boot again Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:34:28 +1000 From: Giles Lean Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 27 May 1996 15:17:14 +0930 (CST) Michael Smith wrote: > I think you're on the money here; the third stage shouldn't care how it > got into memory, it should be able to derive _everything_ by examining the > environment that it finds itself in on startup. > > (I know this means two bootp requests if it's come in from a netboot > environment, but that shouldn't hurt). NetBSD (just as an example :) will already make two bootp/RARP requests in a diskless environment to reduce the boot blocks <-> kernel interaction. Giles From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 16:46:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09682 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA09677 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id QAA01688 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:46:37 -0700 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id AAA03539; Tue, 28 May 1996 00:43:55 +0100 (BST) To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Alias IP addresses In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 May 1996 19:11:09 EDT." <199605272311.TAA09154@etinc.com> Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:43:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3537.833240632@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dennis wrote in message ID <199605272311.TAA09154@etinc.com>: > > Is there a way do display all of the addresses associated with > an interface? -current ifconfig has been updated to do that, yes. Don't think it's easy to do in -stable though. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 16:48:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09925 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA09915 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA05757; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:48:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Mon, 27 May 96 18:48 CDT Received: by mercury.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Mon, 27 May 96 18:48 CDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Alias IP addresses To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 18:48:07 -0500 (CDT) From: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605272311.TAA09154@etinc.com> from "Dennis" at May 27, 96 07:11:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Is there a way do display all of the addresses associated with > an interface? > > Dennis > > netstat -i -n doesn't work? Does for me! -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1] | 21 Chicagoland POPs, ISDN, 28.8, much more Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ ISDN - Get it here TODAY! | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 17:23:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12629 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12624 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id JAA01835; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:23:20 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:23:20 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Jake Hamby cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Sharing a partition between Solaris & FreeBSD.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 27 May 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > 3) Shared FDISK partition for swap space (32MB> I haven't tried this yet, but you might have problems with this. -mh From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 17:32:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13524 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13511; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA29356; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:18:47 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605280048.KAA29356@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Re(2): SCSI hostadapter To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:18:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605272126.OAA09109@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 27, 96 02:26:59 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > This particular card does not support interrupts (it doesn't even have any fingers on the connector for any of the IRQ lines). ... > This is typically an artifact of having the interrupt set incorrectly. This message is an artifact of Terry spending too long awake 8) > I'd caution you that it's also possible that it's just a dog-slow > interface, so there may be nothing to be done about it. A good 5380 clone in a good DMA environment can manage around the 2M/sec mark sustained (eg. the LOGIC 53C80 in the Atari TT). Without this, and with no interrupts, you're kinda restricted in your total data rate 8( > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 17:58:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA14968 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA14962; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA09890; Mon, 27 May 1996 17:55:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605280055.RAA09890@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Re(2): SCSI hostadapter To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 17:55:23 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605280048.KAA29356@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 28, 96 10:18:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > This particular card does not support interrupts (it doesn't even have any fingers on the connector for any of the IRQ lines). > ... > > This is typically an artifact of having the interrupt set incorrectly. > > This message is an artifact of Terry spending too long awake 8) Oh, duh. Then "it's just a slow card". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 18:01:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15265 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15257 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA26399; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 21:00:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Watson To: Dennis cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Alias IP addresses In-Reply-To: <199605272311.TAA09154@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 27 May 1996, Dennis wrote: > > Is there a way do display all of the addresses associated with > an interface? > > Dennis netstat -I -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 18:26:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA16759 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16754 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA09394; Mon, 27 May 96 21:25:54 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id VAA17242; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:25:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199605280125.VAA17242@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 27 May 1996 14:24:28 EST. <199605272124.OAA09092@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 21:25:48 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Any thoughts on writing a poll() which allows a variable number of bits > > > passed in the fd_set (or new) structure to get around FD_SETSIZE limits > > > > Poll is (finally) specified in Spec1170 and it doesn't use bits in an > > fd_set. If you want a system call that does this, don't call it poll. > > And if you want a poll() system call that has beeter than 10ms timer > resoloution, don't call it poll(). The select() call *does* have > some advantages over poll(), still. Yup, well, seems like we've had this talk before. The spec for poll allows delays with 1ms resolution. You can argue all you want about how the SVR4 poll implementation is inherently flawed to yield the actual 10ms granularity you cite, and you're no doubt correct, but that doesn't mean that a FreeBSD implementation need be similarly flawed. And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity than poll. At the other end of the spectrum poll doesn't allow for arbitrarily long delays, i.e. longer than MAXINT ms. A new API is needed that takes, e.g. a struct timeval instead of an int to request large delays. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 18:51:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19838 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cedb.dpcsys.com (cedb.DPCSYS.COM [165.90.143.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA19833 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cedb (cedb.DPCSYS.COM [165.90.143.3]) by cedb.dpcsys.com (8.6.10/DPC-1.0) with SMTP id BAA29784; Tue, 28 May 1996 01:49:20 GMT Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 18:49:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Busarow X-Sender: dan@cedb To: Dennis cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Alias IP addresses In-Reply-To: <199605272311.TAA09154@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 27 May 1996, Dennis wrote: > Is there a way do display all of the addresses associated with > an interface? netstat -in works for me. Add a little grep and awk and you could even make it pretty :) Dan -- Dan Busarow 714 443 4172 DPC Systems Dana Point, California From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 18:54:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19999 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [198.81.209.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA19994 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA00479; Mon, 27 May 1996 18:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 18:57:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Michael Hancock cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Sharing a partition between Solaris & FreeBSD.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 28 May 1996, Michael Hancock wrote: > On Mon, 27 May 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > > > 3) Shared FDISK partition for swap space (32MB> > > I haven't tried this yet, but you might have problems with this. > > -mh Didn't have any problems when I tried it on a Zip disk. FreeBSD accepts any partition (not just those ending with b) for swapon, and Solaris accepts any partition or swapfile with swap -a. This is unlike Linux, which accepts swap partitions to have special magic numbers in them, I should note. Again, the benefit of sharing between FreeBSD and Solaris, is that both have derived their filesystem from BSD. Sharing between Linux and FreeBSD, I'm certain, would be much messier, since you'd have to decide between adding FFS to Linux (experimental patch?) or ext2fs to FreeBSD (also experimental). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |Jake Hamby| Ask me about Unix, FreeBSD, Solaris, The Tick, Motif, or NT, eh?| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Hi, can I interest you in buying some meat over the phone?" -Lotus commercial From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 20:11:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA25070 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 20:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA25065 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 20:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id MAA03279; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:10:51 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:10:51 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Jake Hamby cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Sharing a partition between Solaris & FreeBSD.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 27 May 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > > > 3) Shared FDISK partition for swap space (32MB> > > > > I haven't tried this yet, but you might have problems with this. > > > > -mh > > Didn't have any problems when I tried it on a Zip disk. FreeBSD accepts > any partition (not just those ending with b) for swapon, and Solaris > accepts any partition or swapfile with swap -a. This is unlike Linux, > which accepts swap partitions to have special magic numbers in them, I > should note. I thought Solaris used magic numbers too for its swap partitions. (82?) -mh From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 21:45:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29961 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nike.efn.org (gurney_j@garcia.efn.org [198.68.17.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29952 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gurney_j@localhost) by nike.efn.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA01203; Mon, 27 May 1996 20:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 20:09:57 -0700 (PDT) From: John-Mark Gurney Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: signal 4? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk what exactly is signal 4? recently I have been getting this quite often... if it is a normal command that hits a sig 4 it usally hangs the machine after a few seconds... could it be a memory timing problem? or possible something else? I'm running a Conner CFP1060S with three cdrom drives on an Adaptec 2840... also is two 4port AST compatible async cards... the ethernet card is a ne2000 clone... I'm running 2.2-960323-SNAP on it.... I'm thinking of upgrading the machine to 2.1-STABLE but I currently don't have enough disk space to make it... thanks for the help... TTYL.. John-Mark gurney_j@efn.org http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Modem/FAX: (541) 683-6954 (FreeBSD Box) Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD (unix) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 21:50:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA00312 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00307 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA04627; Mon, 27 May 1996 21:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605280449.VAA04627@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "matthew c. mead" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CHILD_MAX In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 27 May 96 11:22:31 -0400. <199605271522.LAA05548@Glock.COM> Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 21:49:53 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Does anyone know why CHILD_MAX for the kernel and CHILD_MAX >in the /usr/include/sys/syslimits.h are different (128 and 40 >respectively)? I'm running into the problem of having too few >processes available. If I redefine the define in syslimits.h to >128 will I be able to run right away, or am I correct in >presuming that I'm going to have to rebuild things? What all >will I have to rebuild? If you're running tcsh, you can just use the... limit maxproc 128 or unlimit ... commands. (Unlimit, of course, sets it to its maximum value -- 1044 on my machine.) Other shells can do the same thing with similar commands. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 22:04:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA00950 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 22:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00939; Mon, 27 May 1996 22:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA04724; Mon, 27 May 1996 22:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605280503.WAA04724@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Gary Palmer" cc: Sean Doran , dennis@etinc.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 27 May 96 21:45:21 +0100. <2537.833229921@palmer.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 22:03:51 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [...] >routing). They used to use SPARC's for dial-in terminal servers, but I >think most of them are now retired from that duty to be replaced with >dedicated dial in hardware. >(Unfortunately, you are right about one thing .. they do use NetBSD) You'd rather they ran Slowaris? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 22:17:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01474 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 22:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA01469 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 22:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA04807; Mon, 27 May 1996 22:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605280511.WAA04807@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Alias IP addresses In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 27 May 96 19:11:09 -0400. <199605272311.TAA09154@etinc.com> Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 22:11:25 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Is there a way do display all of the addresses associated with >an interface? netstat -i ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 23:29:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04827 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lirmm.lirmm.fr (lirmm.lirmm.fr [193.49.104.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04822 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lirmm.fr (baobab.lirmm.fr [193.49.106.14]) by lirmm.lirmm.fr (8.7.1/8.6.4) with ESMTP id IAA09104 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:29:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199605280629.IAA09104@lirmm.lirmm.fr> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: strcpy, strcat: not the same look & feel. Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:29:15 +0200 From: "Philippe Charnier" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Which one is faster, the old version or the one with this patch applied? Libc uses another one (assembler) but this could at least make libkern faster. Or is it even better to use the libc's version? I'm not really sure about my results but it seems that the following patch make strcpy 8% faster (-O0) 6% faster (-O) and 0% faster (-O2) on my i486 according to gprof. --- strcpy.c 1994/05/27 04:57:55 1.1.1.1 +++ strcpy.c 1996/05/25 21:33:23 @@ -35,7 +35,6 @@ static char sccsid[] = "@(#)strcpy.c 8.1 (Berkeley) 6/4/93"; #endif /* LIBC_SCCS and not lint */ -#include #include char * @@ -45,6 +44,6 @@ { char *save = to; - for (; *to = *from; ++from, ++to); + while (*to++ = *from++); return(save); } -------- -------- Philippe Charnier charnier@lirmm.fr LIRMM, 161 rue Ada, 34392 Montpellier cedex 5 -- France ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon May 27 23:52:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA06349 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA06344 for ; Mon, 27 May 1996 23:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA11222; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:51:43 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA08710; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:51:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA15811; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:33:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605280633.IAA15811@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: signal 4? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:33:09 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from John-Mark Gurney at "May 27, 96 08:09:57 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John-Mark Gurney wrote: > what exactly is signal 4? SIGILL -- illegal instruction > often... if it is a normal command that hits a sig 4 it usally hangs the > machine after a few seconds... could it be a memory timing problem? or > possible something else? It is caused by the CPU executing an undefined opcode, so yep, it might be a memory (or a CPU) problem. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 01:44:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA11330 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 01:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA11309 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 01:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA08598; Tue, 28 May 1996 18:36:08 +1000 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 18:36:08 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605280836.SAA08598@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: charnier@lirmm.fr, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: strcpy, strcat: not the same look & feel. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Which one is faster, the old version or the one with this patch applied? >Libc uses another one (assembler) but this could at least make libkern >faster. Or is it even better to use the libc's version? I'm not really sure >about my results but it seems that the following patch make strcpy 8% faster >(-O0) 6% faster (-O) and 0% faster (-O2) on my i486 according to gprof. >... >- for (; *to = *from; ++from, ++to); >+ while (*to++ = *from++); They are essentially the same, But gcc doesn't recognise this at any optimization level, and generates slightly different code that happens to be faster or slower depending on the cpu. I get quite different results for one test with a short string (of length 5) on a Pentium: -O0: 29% faster (16.79s reduced to 11.96s) -O1: 5% slower (12.23s increased to 12.85s) -O2: 9% slower (11.34s increased to 12.40s) -O3: 13% faster (2.57s reduced to 2.27s) The speed actually depends more on the surrounding code than on the loop. Essentially the same code is generated for the loop in all cases except -O0. -O3 is much faster because the copy function got inlined. Slightly different setup code for the other tests gives significantly different results. Only the results for -O0 case are easy to understand. The unoptimized code for the while loop happens to be less pessimal on the i386. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 02:14:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA12424 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 02:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA12416 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 02:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOKqk-000QZKC; Tue, 28 May 96 11:13 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA23008 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:01:19 +0200 Message-Id: <199605280901.LAA23008@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Indentation styles To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:01:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK, I know source code indentation styles are a hot button, but I think I need to press it anyway. First, a question: is there a recommended FreeBSD indentation style? If not, I think there should be. Now, my problem: I frequently modify other people's code, which sometimes causes me problems in reading, simply because the indentation varies so much from the indentation that my tools and I use. Frequently, I just give up and run the whole source through indent(1). The resulting modifications work (usually), but it's difficult to pass them back to the original author as diffs. Therefore, my suggestion: if FreeBSD doesn't have a canonical indentation style, it should get one. The style should be reproducible with indent(1). (For those of you who don't know, indent(1) has a plethora of flags which can create just about any indentation style you like). That way, individuals can code in styles in which they feel comfortable, but when they submit code, it's in the canonical form. It would be an advantage, of course, to choose a canonical form which corresponds to the tastes of the majority. If there is already a recommended FreeBSD indentation style, can it be reliably produced with indent(1)? If not, what do people think about modifying it to a (closely similar) form which can be created with indent(1)? If there isn't a recommended FreeBSD indentation style, do you agree that there should be one? What should it be like? Finally, a restriction. Indent style can, in some cases, influence coding style: for example, if you choose an indent of 8 and indent braces 8 characters and the contents of a block another 8 spaces, you'll soon run out of margins. Even if you only indent a single 8 characters, you'll end up writing different code from people running smaller indents. Does this matter? Thoughts? Flames? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 03:15:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA15915 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA15897 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOLms-000QZ9C; Tue, 28 May 96 12:14 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA23299; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:07:42 +0200 Message-Id: <199605281007.MAA23299@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: signal 4? To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:07:41 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: from "John-Mark Gurney" at May 27, 96 08:09:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John-Mark Gurney writes: > > what exactly is signal 4? >From : #define SIGHUP 1 /* hangup */ #define SIGINT 2 /* interrupt */ #define SIGQUIT 3 /* quit */ #define SIGILL 4 /* illegal instruction (not reset when caught) */ > recently I have been getting this quite often... if it is a normal > command that hits a sig 4 it usally hangs the machine after a few > seconds... could it be a memory timing problem? or possible > something else? > > I'm running a Conner CFP1060S with three cdrom drives on an Adaptec > 2840... also is two 4port AST compatible async cards... the ethernet > card is a ne2000 clone... I'm running 2.2-960323-SNAP on it.... I'm > thinking of upgrading the machine to 2.1-STABLE but I currently don't > have enough disk space to make it... Doesn't ring a bell with me. It would be interesting to see where it hits--is the instruction really illegal? It's not a very common occurrence, so maybe you do have hardware problems. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 03:27:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16378 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA16373 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA11893; Tue, 28 May 1996 20:13:03 +1000 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 20:13:03 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605281013.UAA11893@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, charnier@lirmm.fr, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: strcpy, strcat: not the same look & feel. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>Which one is faster, the old version or the one with this patch applied? >>Libc uses another one (assembler) but this could at least make libkern >>faster. Or is it even better to use the libc's version? I'm not really sure I forgot to answer the main question. libkern shouldn't be changed since: (1) strcpy is so rarely used in the kernel that its speed isn't important. That's why libkern/strcpy.c is a copy of the generic strcpy.c and not the i386 strcpy.S. (2) gcc inlines strcpy() (unless you compile with -O0 or -fno-buitin), so the libkern version is almost never used. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 03:42:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16876 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA16869 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA13366; Tue, 28 May 1996 20:35:53 +1000 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 20:35:53 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605281035.UAA13366@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >First, a question: is there a recommended FreeBSD indentation style? Yes. See style.9 in -current or /usr/src/admin/style/style in 4.4BSD. >Now, my problem: I frequently modify other people's code, which >sometimes causes me problems in reading, simply because the >indentation varies so much from the indentation that my tools and I >use. Frequently, I just give up and run the whole source through >indent(1). The resulting modifications work (usually), but it's >difficult to pass them back to the original author as diffs. Don't use indent on other peoples code. >Therefore, my suggestion: if FreeBSD doesn't have a canonical >indentation style, it should get one. The style should be >reproducible with indent(1). (For those of you who don't know, BSD indent is too broken to produce BSD style :-(. It can only produce an approximation that looks OK but has too many differences for automatic use. >If there is already a recommended FreeBSD indentation style, can it be >reliably produced with indent(1)? If not, what do people think about >modifying it to a (closely similar) form which can be created with >indent(1)? indent(1) should be changed, not the style. Otherwise 200MB of current sources that sort of have the correct style would have the wrong style. >Finally, a restriction. Indent style can, in some cases, influence >coding style: for example, if you choose an indent of 8 and indent >braces 8 characters and the contents of a block another 8 spaces, >you'll soon run out of margins. Even if you only indent a single 8 >characters, you'll end up writing different code from people running >smaller indents. Does this matter? 8 is too much but we're stuck with it. There is something to be said for the discipline required to minimise nesting. Don't right code like this: { { { { { { { { { /* * Com- * men- * ts * are * hard * to * fit * bet- * wee- * n * col- * umns * 72 * and * 80. */ { /*->*/ { /*->*/ /* Some people's xterms are too wide. */ Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 04:20:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA19025 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA19020 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA13732; Tue, 28 May 96 07:19:04 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id HAA17563; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:18:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199605281118.HAA17563@exalt.x.org> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org, chat@freebsd.com, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 08:12:17 EST. <199605280612.IAA03466@uriah.heep.sax.de> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 07:18:48 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (Religious topic, thus moved to chat.) Religious??? Off hand I can't think of why this would be religious. In any event I don't subscribe to chat, and I don't really want to subscribe to yet another list; I already have more than enough to do. > > As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > > > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > > than poll. > > Only very few systems actually implement it as a library function (and > that's perhaps one of the reasons [along with STREAMS] for the > sluggishness of their IP functionality). All the serious ones > implement it as a system call, too. I'm curious about what your definition of "serious" is. On most of the SVR4-en (I did qualify my statement as being about SVR4), there is no select system call -- select is a library routine implemented with poll. In any event I'm reasonably certain that the vendors who ship these versions of SVR4 think of themselves as serious: Solaris 2.x (SVR4) Unixware 1.x, 2.x (SVR4.2) Sony NEWS/OS 6.x (SVR4) NCR (AT&T MP/RAS) 4.0.3 (SVR4) Fujitsu UXP 10.20 (SVR4.2) (SGI's IRIX5 and IRIX6 have both. You'll forgive me if I suggest that they're the exception that proves the rule. :-)) Of the remaining systems that I have here, which have both poll and select system calls, none are SVR4. They are: (SunOS) SCO UNIX HPUX AIX Digital UNIX (OSF/1) SunOS is technically dead, so that makes this list one shorter. It will be interesting to see what the SVR4 incarnation of SCO UNIX will have. HPUX does show signs of heading toward SVR4, we'll have to watch and see. The only vendors with a long term commitment to not go to SVR4 (well, Digital UNIX does have an SVR4 environment in 4.0) are Digital and IBM. In contrast to your statement that "only a few implement (select) as a library function," it looks to me like only a few implement both as system calls, and it seems to me like that list is going to get even shorter. So, getting back to FreeBSD-land. A FreeBSD implementation of poll would not need to be as fundamentally flawed as the SVR4 implementation. What some people would like to have is a new API that takes a struct timeval as an argument instead of an int. This would allow specifying delays with usec instead of msec granularity *and* would also allow delays of longer than MAXINT msec to be specified. As it happens I have added both poll and polltv to my 2.1R system, and if I didn't have so many other demands on my time I might be able to finish it someday and contribute it back. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 04:41:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA19857 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (slipper119229.iafrica.com [196.7.119.229]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA19851 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA00234; Tue, 28 May 1996 13:37:55 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199605281137.NAA00234@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:37:53 +0200 (SAT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605280901.LAA23008@allegro.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at May 28, 96 11:01:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > > OK, I know source code indentation styles are a hot button, but I > think I need to press it anyway. > > First, a question: is there a recommended FreeBSD indentation style? > If not, I think there should be. > > Now, my problem: I frequently modify other people's code, which > sometimes causes me problems in reading, simply because the > indentation varies so much from the indentation that my tools and I > use. Frequently, I just give up and run the whole source through > indent(1). The resulting modifications work (usually), but it's > difficult to pass them back to the original author as diffs. > > Therefore, my suggestion: if FreeBSD doesn't have a canonical > indentation style, it should get one. The style should be > reproducible with indent(1). (For those of you who don't know, > indent(1) has a plethora of flags which can create just about any > indentation style you like). That way, individuals can code in styles > in which they feel comfortable, but when they submit code, it's in the > canonical form. It would be an advantage, of course, to choose a > canonical form which corresponds to the tastes of the majority. > > If there is already a recommended FreeBSD indentation style, can it be > reliably produced with indent(1)? If not, what do people think about > modifying it to a (closely similar) form which can be created with > indent(1)? > > If there isn't a recommended FreeBSD indentation style, do you agree > that there should be one? What should it be like? > > Finally, a restriction. Indent style can, in some cases, influence > coding style: for example, if you choose an indent of 8 and indent > braces 8 characters and the contents of a block another 8 spaces, > you'll soon run out of margins. Even if you only indent a single 8 > characters, you'll end up writing different code from people running > smaller indents. Does this matter? > > Thoughts? Flames? Yuk! I think 'indent' should be hardwired to output to '/usr/tmp'. 'indent' is primarily useful as a tool to make sense out of other people's code. So, if their style differs from yours, indent can be used to produce a rough translation, which may be useful to promote understanding. But 'indent' needs to be used a logical tool, for personal use, not as something to chop and stretch code into rigid conformance with any One True Way of doing things. Some people take immense care in the formatting of their code, however eccentric the layout may appear to those used to a different style. To stomp all over this with 'indent' would be decidedly a Bad Thing. Unless you format your code with indent in mind, indent is pretty much guaranteed to make a mess of it. (Well, of the finer points, anyway.) Any particular patch or modification is likely to comprise far less code than the original source. In these circumstances, it is surely better to match the style of the original. There is an awful lot of code out there, in various indentation styles. To go in and re-indent the lot of it is going to create massive change, problems, and uncertainty. (And probably will turn up a few bugs in indent, which may be detected only when program behavior suddenly changes.) If the required indentation style is applicable only to new code, the legacy code is always going to be in the majority. So there will not be the desired overall conformity. Indentation styles raise strong feelings. I was looking at some stuff the other day in which the author specifically prohibits reformatting the source as part of the conditions for free use and distribution. (I think it was part of Minix.) The Bell Labs 'Indian Hill Style Guide' is generally regarded as the most authoritative of such guides, by those who take these matters seriously. It has this to say about 'indent' and friends: This committee recommends that programmers not rely on automatic beautifiers for the following reasons. First, the main person who benefits from good program style is the programmer himself. This is especially true in the early design of handwritten algorithms or pseudo-code. Automatic beautifiers can only be applied to complete, syntactically correct programs and hence are not available when the need for attention to white space and indentation is greatest. It is also felt that programmers can do a better job of making clear the complete visual layout of a function or file, with the normal attention to detail of a careful program- mer53. Sloppy programmers should learn to be careful programmers instead of relying on a beautifier to make their code readable. Finally, it is felt that since beautifiers are non-trivial programs that must parse the source, the burden of maintaining them in the face of the continuing evolution of C is not worth the bene- fits gained by such a program. _________________________ 53. In other words, some of the visual layout is dictated by intent rather than syntax. Beautifiers cannot read minds. (For those influenced by Classical allusions, the Greek legend of Procrustes is also very apposite.) I think Greg's concern in valid, but this is one of Nature's Insoluble Problems. Let's have some sanity, please! -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 05:24:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA21860 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 05:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA21854 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 05:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA17117; Tue, 28 May 1996 22:05:29 +1000 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 22:05:29 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605281205.WAA17117@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: grog@lemis.de, gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Subject: Re: signal 4? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> what exactly is signal 4? >>From : >... >#define SIGILL 4 /* illegal instruction (not reset when caught) */ This comment doesn't seem to have been changed since prehistoric times. All signals are "not reset when caught" in FreeBSD, unless the recently introduced SA_RESETHAND is used to break them. The comment is now wrong as well as misleading, since SA_RESETHAND may be used to break SIGILL :-). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 06:03:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25212 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA25206 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id GAA04623 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:03:46 -0700 Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uONY6-000QXtC; Tue, 28 May 96 14:06 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA23631; Tue, 28 May 1996 13:44:21 +0200 Message-Id: <199605281144.NAA23631@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:44:21 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <199605281035.UAA13366@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at May 28, 96 08:35:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans writes: > >> First, a question: is there a recommended FreeBSD indentation style? > > Yes. See style.9 in -current or /usr/src/admin/style/style in 4.4BSD. Thanks. >> Now, my problem: I frequently modify other people's code, which >> sometimes causes me problems in reading, simply because the >> indentation varies so much from the indentation that my tools and I >> use. Frequently, I just give up and run the whole source through >> indent(1). The resulting modifications work (usually), but it's >> difficult to pass them back to the original author as diffs. > > Don't use indent on other peoples code. What's the alternative? My tools don't understand a lot of the code out there, and I have difficulty. >> Therefore, my suggestion: if FreeBSD doesn't have a canonical >> indentation style, it should get one. The style should be >> reproducible with indent(1). (For those of you who don't know, > > BSD indent is too broken to produce BSD style :-(. It can only > produce an approximation that looks OK but has too many differences > for automatic use. What about GNU indent? Or is that NIH? >> If there is already a recommended FreeBSD indentation style, can it be >> reliably produced with indent(1)? If not, what do people think about >> modifying it to a (closely similar) form which can be created with >> indent(1)? > > indent(1) should be changed, not the style. Otherwise 200MB of current > sources that sort of have the correct style would have the wrong style. Obviously it would only be possible to accept changes if they were small. I've done some tests with a couple of kernel modules, and though they didn't end up looking exactly the same, there was no reason to assume that the new version was any less in accordance with the style guidelines than the old version. There are probably a few flags to tweak, but there's little point unless people can agree on this kind of procedure. >> Finally, a restriction. Indent style can, in some cases, influence >> coding style: for example, if you choose an indent of 8 and indent >> braces 8 characters and the contents of a block another 8 spaces, >> you'll soon run out of margins. Even if you only indent a single 8 >> characters, you'll end up writing different code from people running >> smaller indents. Does this matter? > > 8 is too much but we're stuck with it. There is something to be said > for the discipline required to minimise nesting. Don't right code like > this: > > { > { > { > { > { > { > { > { > { > /* > * Com- > * men- > * ts > * are > * hard > * to > * fit > * bet- > * wee- > * n > * col- > * umns > * 72 > * and > * 80. > */ > { > /*->*/ { > /*->*/ /* Some people's xterms are too wide. */ Precisely :-) But why are we stuck with 8 characters? I can't find anything about it in style(9). It says "Second level indents are four spaces." and then proceeds to show examples with 8 character indents. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 06:08:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25502 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA25476 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Glock.COM (root@glock.com [198.82.228.165]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id FAA04475 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 05:08:12 -0700 Received: (from mmead@localhost) by Glock.COM (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA11478; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:05:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "matthew c. mead" Message-Id: <199605281205.IAA11478@Glock.COM> Subject: Re: CHILD_MAX To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605280449.VAA04627@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at May 27, 96 09:49:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com writes: > > Does anyone know why CHILD_MAX for the kernel and CHILD_MAX > >in the /usr/include/sys/syslimits.h are different (128 and 40 > >respectively)? I'm running into the problem of having too few > >processes available. If I redefine the define in syslimits.h to > >128 will I be able to run right away, or am I correct in > >presuming that I'm going to have to rebuild things? What all > >will I have to rebuild? > If you're running tcsh, you can just use the... > limit maxproc 128 > or > unlimit > ... commands. (Unlimit, of course, sets it to its maximum value -- > 1044 on my machine.) > Other shells can do the same thing with similar commands. I use zsh, and I run unlimit - in fact I checked the processes limit and it's "unlimited." I'm still getting stopped after 40. Maybe it uses CHILD_MAX. -matt -- Matthew C. Mead mmead@Glock.COM http://www.goof.com/~mmead/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 06:08:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25526 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA25498 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id FAA04471 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 05:07:35 -0700 Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uONY8-000QYPC; Tue, 28 May 96 14:06 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA23645; Tue, 28 May 1996 13:53:54 +0200 Message-Id: <199605281153.NAA23645@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: rnordier@iafrica.com (Robert Nordier) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:53:54 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <199605281137.NAA00234@eac.iafrica.com> from "Robert Nordier" at May 28, 96 01:37:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robert Nordier writes: > > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> OK, I know source code indentation styles are a hot button, but I >> think I need to press it anyway. >> >> First, a question: is there a recommended FreeBSD indentation style? >> If not, I think there should be. >> >> Now, my problem: I frequently modify other people's code, which >> sometimes causes me problems in reading, simply because the >> indentation varies so much from the indentation that my tools and I >> use. Frequently, I just give up and run the whole source through >> indent(1). The resulting modifications work (usually), but it's >> difficult to pass them back to the original author as diffs. >> >> Therefore, my suggestion: if FreeBSD doesn't have a canonical >> indentation style, it should get one. The style should be >> reproducible with indent(1). (For those of you who don't know, >> indent(1) has a plethora of flags which can create just about any >> indentation style you like). That way, individuals can code in styles >> in which they feel comfortable, but when they submit code, it's in the >> canonical form. It would be an advantage, of course, to choose a >> canonical form which corresponds to the tastes of the majority. >> >> If there is already a recommended FreeBSD indentation style, can it be >> reliably produced with indent(1)? If not, what do people think about >> modifying it to a (closely similar) form which can be created with >> indent(1)? >> >> If there isn't a recommended FreeBSD indentation style, do you agree >> that there should be one? What should it be like? >> >> Finally, a restriction. Indent style can, in some cases, influence >> coding style: for example, if you choose an indent of 8 and indent >> braces 8 characters and the contents of a block another 8 spaces, >> you'll soon run out of margins. Even if you only indent a single 8 >> characters, you'll end up writing different code from people running >> smaller indents. Does this matter? >> >> Thoughts? Flames? > > Yuk! > > I think 'indent' should be hardwired to output to '/usr/tmp'. > > 'indent' is primarily useful as a tool to make sense out of other people's > code. So, if their style differs from yours, indent can be used to > produce a rough translation, which may be useful to promote understanding. > > But 'indent' needs to be used a logical tool, for personal use, not as > something to chop and stretch code into rigid conformance with any > One True Way of doing things. Somehow I think I'm not going to get a majority on my side on this question. > Some people take immense care in the formatting of their code, however > eccentric the layout may appear to those used to a different style. To > stomp all over this with 'indent' would be decidedly a Bad Thing. I don't see any good reason to indent other people's code unless you're going to do serious modifications. If you are, though, as you observe, indent can be a useful tool. In my particular case, I use emacs C mode, and it gets completely confused by hanging braces. I indent differently from the style standards (well, I suppose I could get emacs to change that, but that's only part of the story). I don't have any particular problem with other people going and munging my code after I've done it, I just have serious technical difficulties *producing* this style of code. > Unless you format your code with indent in mind, indent is pretty much > guaranteed to make a mess of it. (Well, of the finer points, anyway.) Well, I think indent has got cleverer. But yes, part of my suggestion is to format your code with indent in mind. > Any particular patch or modification is likely to comprise far less > code than the original source. In these circumstances, it is surely > better to match the style of the original. > > There is an awful lot of code out there, in various indentation styles. > To go in and re-indent the lot of it is going to create massive change, > problems, and uncertainty. (And probably will turn up a few bugs in > indent, which may be detected only when program behavior suddenly > changes.) > > If the required indentation style is applicable only to new code, the > legacy code is always going to be in the majority. So there will not > be the desired overall conformity. > > Indentation styles raise strong feelings. I was looking at some > stuff the other day in which the author specifically prohibits > reformatting the source as part of the conditions for free use and > distribution. (I think it was part of Minix.) Interesting. > I think Greg's concern in valid, but this is one of Nature's > Insoluble Problems. Let's have some sanity, please! Well, we could try. Since I'm really only talking about diffs, it shouldn't be insoluble. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 06:23:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA27207 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA27196 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA13242; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:22:19 -0400 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:22:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Jake Hamby cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, Fred Condo , Adam Leff Subject: Re: Mac Linux: Nothing to worry about :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was very disappointed with the DR1 release of MkLinux for PowerMac. I said it before and i'll say it again: MkLinux is a very popular OS (linux) running as a "server" on an OS no one cares about or likes (Mach) from a company that is rapidly becoming irrelevant (Apple). The Mach and Apple pieces are trying to ride the popularity of Linux. I think they're going to fail. You shouldn't be surprised if it's slow. OS servers on Mach have always been slow and probably always will be. Or, as someone working on such a server once said to me: Performance: it sucks Reliability: it sucks This is a guy who gets *paid* to do Mach. > The question is: Would it be best to build a BSD "personality" No, no, a thousand times no, unless you want to give BSD a bad name. Scrap Mach. Use the pmap code etc. but don't waste your time on that kernel. ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 07:05:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01807 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA01799 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20493 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:04:41 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Tue, 28 May 1996 15:04:31 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA29700; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:03:16 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605281403.PAA29700@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:03:15 +0100 (BST) Cc: louie@transsys.com, dennis@etinc.com, karl@mcs.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605241616.JAA04124@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at May 24, 96 09:16:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com who said > > Re: needing Solarus for a Sparc -- NetBSD has a very mature, stable > Sparc port. FYI... > > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... ^^ ^^ Is this now working? I've got a spare disk on my sparc 5 I wouldn't mind having *BSD on but last time I checked NetBSD didn't support it. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 07:06:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01921 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA01913 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.ctron.com (ctron.com [134.141.197.25]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id GAA04830 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 06:37:50 -0700 Received: (from news@localhost) by gatekeeper.ctron.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA02738 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:37:39 -0400 Received: from stealth.ctron.com(134.141.5.107) by gatekeeper via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma002698; Tue May 28 09:36:36 1996 Received: from thoth.ctron.com by stealth.ctron.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03801; Tue, 28 May 96 09:28:16 EDT Received: from thoth (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thoth.ctron.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA17620 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:37:04 -0400 Message-Id: <31AB017F.1EE1@ctron.com> Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:37:03 -0400 From: Alexander Seth Jones Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: using floating point arithmetic inside a device driver Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm writing a device driver which needs to do some floating point calculations, but when the floating point code executes the kernel traps with number 22 "FPU device not available". I'm have an AMD 486DX4-120. I'm not concerned with portability at this time (ie running on SX's). Would someone care to explain what's going on? Thanks. Alex Jones From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 07:12:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA02292 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA02271; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id EAA04403 ; Tue, 28 May 1996 04:53:17 -0700 Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOLmt-000QZAC; Tue, 28 May 96 12:14 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA23196; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:47:08 +0200 Message-Id: <199605280947.LAA23196@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: ISDN Pri: Back to the subject please To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:47:08 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de (FreeBSD ISDN Distribution List) In-Reply-To: <199605271608.MAA08426@etinc.com> from "Dennis" at May 27, 96 12:08:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dennis writes: > > Has anyone looked into existing ISDN PRI boards with embedded code? > (like ISDN systems has one). It'll cost more that SDLs board but it > exists and has been shipping for awhile, plus i believe it comes > with code and a usable API (not sure how much of it is OS > level). I've thought about it myself but Im up to my elbows at this > point.....not to bad mouth my competitors too much but they've never > written a usable protocol stack and aren't likely to be much help in > writing a driver, so the task might be excruciating. No, I haven't heard of this one. Can you give me a pointer? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 08:19:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA06286 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA06281 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA05561 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:19:21 -0700 Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA21725 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 16:17:56 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Tue, 28 May 1996 16:17:56 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA02008; Tue, 28 May 1996 16:17:14 +0100 From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605281517.QAA02008@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 16:17:13 +0100 (BST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, lithium@cia-g.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605250710.AAA07315@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at May 25, 96 00:10:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com who said > > >Suffice it to say that I find PERL's syntax and structure highly > >objectionable. Give me a more structured language like TCL or LISP > >any day.. > > LISP. Ew. You can have it. :-) It's beautiful in its own way, yes. > So is the ugly child to his mother. :-) LISP is an interesting theory > thing that I find difficult to use in practice. > I'm surprised he didn't include Forth in the list, he usually does :-) -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 08:26:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA06688 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA06671 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA24325; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:19:15 +1000 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 01:19:15 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605281519.BAA24325@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, grog@lemis.de Subject: Re: Indentation styles Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Don't use indent on other peoples code. >What's the alternative? My tools don't understand a lot of the code >out there, and I have difficulty. Use whatever tools you like, but don't attempt to change the public version. >> BSD indent is too broken to produce BSD style :-(. It can only >> produce an approximation that looks OK but has too many differences >> for automatic use. >What about GNU indent? Or is that NIH? It's a bit better, but not 100% backwards compatible, and a long way from understanding enough about C to do a good job. >Precisely :-) But why are we stuck with 8 characters? I can't find >anything about it in style(9). It says "Second level indents are four >spaces." and then proceeds to show examples with 8 character indents. I think the amount of indentation and tab style was supposed to be self-documenting. It has been obscured by nroff adding 5 spaces more indentation. I think "second level indents" are for continued lines. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 08:35:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA07452 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07445 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA24835; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:33:21 +1000 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 01:33:21 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605281533.BAA24835@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: ajones@ctron.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: using floating point arithmetic inside a device driver Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm writing a device driver which needs to do some floating point >calculations, but when the floating point code executes the kernel traps >with number 22 "FPU device not available". I'm have an AMD 486DX4-120. >I'm not concerned with portability at this time (ie running on SX's). Floating point isn't supported in the kernel. Supporting it by switching the floating point state on every syscall, trap and interrupt would waste a lot of time (several hundred cycles per switch). "Lazy" switching (i.e., switching only when necessary) would waste less time (about 40 cycles per switch on a P133) (except when it is actually used it would waste more time) but would be more complicated. FreeBSD uses lazy switching but only for processes. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 08:38:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA07872 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07832 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id HAA05000 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:22:47 -0700 Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA25527 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Tue, 28 May 1996 17:09:48 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Tue, 28 May 96 17:09:48 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by astral.msk.su (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA00586; Tue, 28 May 1996 18:07:41 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199605281407.SAA00586@astral.msk.su> Subject: Re: X11R6.1 available... Should we use? To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 18:07:40 +0400 (MSD) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nnd@itfs.nsk.su, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605272200.PAA09188@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at "May 27, 96 03:00:15 pm" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (aka Andrey A. Chernov, Black Mage) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ================================================================== > On the language bigotry of everyone, Americans in particular > ================================================================== Well, you seems don't understand me in the right way, still :-) To be more clear: When I forced to choose between ISO-8859-5 and KOI8-R, I choose KOI8-R (the reasons is clear) When I forced to choose between Unicode and KOI8-R, I choose Unicode But right now nobody give me good Unicode solution. -- Andrey A. Chernov : And I rest so composedly, /Now, in my bed, ache@astral.msk.su : That any beholder /Might fancy me dead - http://dt.demos.su/~ache : Might start at beholding me, /Thinking me dead. RELCOM Team,FreeBSD Team : E.A.Poe From "For Annie" 1849 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 09:06:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09540 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09533 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0uORHK-0003yPC; Tue, 28 May 96 09:05 PDT Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA13623; Tue, 28 May 1996 03:37:55 GMT To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 May 1996 11:01:19 +0200." <199605280901.LAA23008@allegro.lemis.de> Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 03:37:52 +0000 Message-ID: <13621.833254672@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > OK, I know source code indentation styles are a hot button, but I > think I need to press it anyway. > > First, a question: is there a recommended FreeBSD indentation style? man 9 style -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 09:12:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA10389 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10358 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA05288 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:47:50 -0700 Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA10516; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:52:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:52:45 -0400 Message-Id: <199605281452.KAA10516@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Paul Richards From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >In reply to Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com who said >> >> Re: needing Solarus for a Sparc -- NetBSD has a very mature, stable >> Sparc port. FYI... >> >> NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, >> Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > ^^ > ^^ 'depends on how you define "working".... db From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 09:13:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA10585 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10558 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA05388 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:04:40 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07790; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605281504.IAA07790@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Alexander Seth Jones cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: using floating point arithmetic inside a device driver In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 28 May 96 09:37:03 -0400. <31AB017F.1EE1@ctron.com> Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:04:27 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm writing a device driver which needs to do some floating point >calculations, but when the floating point code executes the kernel traps >with number 22 "FPU device not available". I'm have an AMD 486DX4-120. >I'm not concerned with portability at this time (ie running on SX's). > Would someone care to explain what's going on? Do you have the npx (numeric processor exception?) device configured into your kernel? You'll need it for floating point. This is NetBSD config syntax, but FreeBSD should be pretty similar: # Math coprocessor/emulation support: npx0 at isa? port 0xf0 irq 13 # math coprocessor (If you already have this, then I don't have an answer...) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 09:13:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA10604 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10569 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA05350 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:02:36 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07765; Tue, 28 May 1996 08:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605281500.IAA07765@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Paul Richards cc: louie@transsys.com, dennis@etinc.com, karl@mcs.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The view from here (was Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU) In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 28 May 96 15:03:15 +0100. <199605281403.PAA29700@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 08:00:08 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >In reply to Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com who said >> Re: needing Solarus for a Sparc -- NetBSD has a very mature, stable >> Sparc port. FYI... >> >> NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, >> Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > ^^ > ^^ >Is this now working? I've got a spare disk on my sparc 5 I wouldn't mind >having *BSD on but last time I checked NetBSD didn't support it. I don't personally know anything about the Sparc port (having never run it). But, the Sparc people tell me to put Sun4/4c/4m in my sig. :-) If you want a more detailed answer, send mail to port-sparc@NetBSD.org. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 09:14:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA10728 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10699 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA05114 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 07:32:20 -0700 Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id JAA00264; Tue, 28 May 1996 09:31:40 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199605281431.JAA00264@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Sharing a partition between Solaris & FreeBSD.. To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:31:40 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at May 28, 96 12:10:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I thought Solaris used magic numbers too for its swap partitions. (82?) Not that I've seen. I don't do anything special or secret to set up my swap partitions. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 11:03:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18112 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18095 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA11424; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:01:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605281801.LAA11424@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: rnordier@iafrica.com (Robert Nordier) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:01:22 -0700 (MST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605281137.NAA00234@eac.iafrica.com> from "Robert Nordier" at May 28, 96 01:37:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The Bell Labs 'Indian Hill Style Guide' is generally regarded as the > most authoritative of such guides, by those who take these matters > seriously. It has this to say about 'indent' and friends: [ ... ] > Automatic beautifiers can only be applied > to complete, syntactically correct programs and hence > are not available when the need for attention to white > space and indentation is greatest. [ ... ] This is no longer true because of language sensitive editor technology, as in Brief, the UNIX "Brief clone", and the Borland and Microsoft offerings. > (For those influenced by Classical allusions, the Greek legend of > Procrustes is also very apposite.) As opposed to "opposite" or "apostate"? 8-) 8-). > I think Greg's concern in valid, but this is one of Nature's > Insoluble Problems. Let's have some sanity, please! At one time I suggested running a "beautifier" on code as part of the CVS commit process. I still like the idea. I also like the idea of running a local style template on checkout from a CVS tree. 8-). This dodges the "incomplete program" problem, above. Obviously, much of KNF style has evolved from the defaults for the vi editor and other tools to allow quick reference of the code (ie: "grep \^functionname *.c" to find: functionname( ... and so on. As long as these tools are "the approved tools", then there needs to be some form of style enforcement to allow them to work as expected (my own placement of spacing in parenthesis allows editor macros to directly access tags files and man pages. Obviously, it's also a tools-driven decision). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 11:08:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18576 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18528 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA11436; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:05:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605281805.LAA11436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: strcpy, strcat: not the same look & feel. To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:05:39 -0700 (MST) Cc: charnier@lirmm.fr, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605280836.SAA08598@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at May 28, 96 06:36:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Which one is faster, the old version or the one with this patch applied? > >Libc uses another one (assembler) but this could at least make libkern > >faster. Or is it even better to use the libc's version? I'm not really sure > >about my results but it seems that the following patch make strcpy 8% faster > >(-O0) 6% faster (-O) and 0% faster (-O2) on my i486 according to gprof. > > >... > >- for (; *to = *from; ++from, ++to); > >+ while (*to++ = *from++); > > They are essentially the same, But gcc doesn't recognise this at any > optimization level, and generates slightly different code that happens > to be faster or slower depending on the cpu. I get quite different > results for one test with a short string (of length 5) on a Pentium: There is also some conventional wisdom on pre vs. post-incrementing, which I wasn't going to mention because I was under the impresson that all modern compilers dealt with it. Post-increment is generally faster if you have the instruction set for it; not all systems have the instruction set. The real fix is to have the compiler Deal With It. The location and pre vs. post are commutative. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 11:08:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18643 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18610 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA06888 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:47:33 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA11401; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:44:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605281744.KAA11401@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Sharing a partition between Solaris & FreeBSD.. To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:44:53 -0700 (MST) Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at May 28, 96 12:10:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > 3) Shared FDISK partition for swap space (32MB> > > > > > > I haven't tried this yet, but you might have problems with this. > > > > > > -mh > > > > Didn't have any problems when I tried it on a Zip disk. FreeBSD accepts > > any partition (not just those ending with b) for swapon, and Solaris > > accepts any partition or swapfile with swap -a. This is unlike Linux, > > which accepts swap partitions to have special magic numbers in them, I > > should note. > > I thought Solaris used magic numbers too for its swap partitions. (82?) I thought they just required a string in the disklabel of "swap", like NetBSD does. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 11:09:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18746 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18739 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:09:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uOTCk-0004KJC; Tue, 28 May 96 11:09 PDT Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:09:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: Terry Lambert cc: Michael Hancock , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Sharing a partition between Solaris & FreeBSD.. In-Reply-To: <199605281744.KAA11401@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 28 May 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I thought Solaris used magic numbers too for its swap partitions. (82?) > > I thought they just required a string in the disklabel of "swap", like > NetBSD does. I think you're right, Terry, _if_ you are using Solaris VTOC slices, e.g. /dev/dsk/c0t3d0s1. I'm using raw FDISK partitions, e.g. /dev/dsk/c0t3d0p1 which seems to bypass any magic number issues in both OS's. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 11:22:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA19730 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA19725 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28254 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:22:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven G. Kargl" Message-Id: <199605281822.LAA28254@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:22:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <13621.833254672@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at May 28, 96 03:37:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Poul-Henning Kamp: > > > OK, I know source code indentation styles are a hot button, but I > > think I need to press it anyway. > > > > First, a question: is there a recommended FreeBSD indentation style? > > man 9 style > Any chance that section 9 of the man pages will be brought into -stable? > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. > -- Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 12:07:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA21896 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA21872 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA07169 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 11:40:39 -0700 Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.2/1.0/WV) id OAA29963; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA14929; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:27:16 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA18898; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:31:55 GMT Message-Id: <199605281431.OAA18898@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org, chat@freebsd.com, terry@lambert.org, "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 May 1996 07:18:48 EST." <199605281118.HAA17563@exalt.x.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:31:52 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In <199605281118.HAA17563@exalt.x.org> , you wrote: Since Kaleb mentioned Digital UNIX as one O/S that implements poll, I though it might be useful to elaborate on that a bit. Digital UNIX has both the poll(2) and select(2) system calls. Both are syscalls in fact. However, since poll has more functionality that select the kernel infrastructure is build around poll rather than select. The select kernel code actually calls poll code in side the kernel. Internally, the kernel uses a timeval; poll's ms timeout gets converted to a timeval. When the _select routine (like soo_select) gets called, instead of int soo_select(struct file *fp, int which, struct proc *p) as in BSD4.4, it gets defined as int soo_select(struct file *fp, int *events, int *revents, int scanning) and the code uses the *events to set the appropriate bits in *revents. -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 12:21:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA22855 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22850 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.net (sydney2.world.net [198.142.12.2]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with ESMTP id MAA29072 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by world.net (8.7.4/8.6.6) with ESMTP id EAA28065 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:59:39 +1000 (EST) Received: (proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.7.4/Proff-950810) id FAA10527 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:00:30 +1000 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 05:00:30 +1000 From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199605281900.FAA10527@suburbia.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: memcpy/strcpy optimisation Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone had a look at http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/~laik/benchmarks/paper/talk.ps? It details a method to increase bus performence on pentiums u.. when using strcpy/memcpy around 5 times. --Proff From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 12:23:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA22931 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA22925 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id UAA13118 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 20:19:50 +0100 (BST) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG CC: scrappy@ki.net From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 20:19:48 +0100 Message-ID: <13116.833311188@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I certainly do at the minute. Take the following innocuous piece of code: if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) pdu->version = session->version; if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; return 0; } Looks fine, right? Sorry, you lose (and so did I, well over an hour of time tracking down this damned problem). Every time you run that piece of code, you get "No version specified". So I go and stick in a nice printf just above the first if statement to check that it's not doing something funny. The code now becomes: printf("pdu->version = %d\nsession->version = %d\nSNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION = %d\n", pdu->version, session->version, SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION); if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) pdu->version = session->version; if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; return 0; } Which produces: pdu->version = -1 session->version = 2 SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION = -1 No version specified So, okay, session->version != SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION, but the problem is the aggregate of those two if statements disagrees. Hmm. Okay. Put in a second printf: printf("pdu->version = %d\nsession->version = %d\nSNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION = %d\n", pdu->version, session->version, SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION); if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) pdu->version = session->version; printf("pdu->version = %d\nsession->version = %d\nSNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION = %d\n", pdu->version, session->version, SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION); if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; return 0; } And all of a sudden IT STARTS WORKING PROPERLY. Take out the two printfs, a nasty idea forming in my mind. The code now becomes: if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) pdu->version = session->version; session->version = pdu->version; if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; return 0; } Which looks kinda daft, but again, the code worked as expected. Take out the ``session->version = pdu->version;'' statement, and it starts failing again. Now I'm really suspicious. Go to the Makefile. Change ``CFLAGS=-O -g -Dfreebsd2'' to be just ``CFLAGS=-Dfreebsd2''. make clean all. Go and rebuild the client apps that depend on the library. BINGO. Much cheering and celebrating. I go to the fridge and get another coke. Anyone want to help me take GCC out the back kicking and screaming to face the shooting squad? Admittedly that code isn't the most elegant way of doing that assignment/test, but GCC should NOT produce such bogus code from it :-( And here we (or at least I) thought that `-O' was safe to use :-( ``Sigh.'' Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 12:35:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23789 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA23762; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.6.12/1.2) id MAA10756; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:34:26 -0700 From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199605281934.MAA10756@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Previous version CD's (again) To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:34:26 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-questions@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD questions) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings! I've been trying to build a complete archive of past FBSD releases and have been searching for older CD-ROMs. I'm currently looking for the following versions: 1.1.5.1R (I don't think there was a 1.1.5R) 1.0 any "pre 1.0" stuff (i.e. 386BSD) And, any CD-ROMs that were *not* pressed by W.C. Pointers to existing archive sites would also be appreciated (to pick up some of the goodies that *aren't* on the CD-ROMs). If you are interested in parting with any of the above, please drop me a line to minimize the noise on these lists. Thanks alot! --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 12:35:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23897 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA23884 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA07392 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:02:41 -0700 Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA23371; Tue, 28 May 96 14:59:47 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id OAA19612; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:59:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199605281859.OAA19612@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 10:43:29 EST. <199605281743.KAA11388@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 14:59:45 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > Any thoughts on writing a poll() which allows a variable number of bits > > > > > passed in the fd_set (or new) structure to get around FD_SETSIZE limits > > > > > > > > Poll is (finally) specified in Spec1170 and it doesn't use bits in an > > > > fd_set. If you want a system call that does this, don't call it poll. > > > > > > And if you want a poll() system call that has beeter than 10ms timer > > > resoloution, don't call it poll(). The select() call *does* have > > > some advantages over poll(), still. > > > > Yup, well, seems like we've had this talk before. The spec for poll > > allows delays with 1ms resolution. You can argue all you want about > > how the SVR4 poll implementation is inherently flawed to yield the > > actual 10ms granularity you cite, and you're no doubt correct, but > > that doesn't mean that a FreeBSD implementation need be similarly > > flawed. > > SVID III states that the expiry resoloution can be at the system clock > update frequency -- which is the frequency at which the RAM copy of > the system clock is updated from the real system clock to bypass the > need for real (potentially slow) clock access on each call to retrieve > the value of the system clock. > > On Solaris, the system clock update frequency is 10ms (100Hz). I > don't know of *any* UNIX implementation where the standard Hz is > set to 1000, which is what it would take to support your 1ms > resolution. Yeah, but who gives a rats ass. This is FreeBSD-hackers. We aint gonna fix Solaris here. As I've said repeatedly, there's no reason why a FreeBSD implementation would need to be similarly brain damaged. > In any case, I want 200uS resoloution. Select(2) on SunOS followed > by a call to gettimeofday() on a SPARCStation 1+ has a 4uS potential > resoloution, assuming non-full use of process quantum (which is an > entirely different problem). A polltv function could accomplish the same thing, and do it without the overhead of FD_ZERO/FD_SET, or the overhead of copying one or more fd_sets into the kernel address space. It wouldn't take much effort to contrive a program that poll would be vastly more efficient than select. > > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > > than poll. > > When Solaris 2.1 introduces SunOS 4.x binary compatability, I (within > a day of receiving it) reported that it would not run statically > linked SunOS 4.x binaries which used the select(2) (and a couple of > other) system calls. > > Sun corrected this in Solaris 2.3. There is no select(2) in Solaris 2.4 or 2.5. I statically linked a trivial program that uses select on SunOS 4.1.3 and trussed it on Solaris 2.4 -- it calls poll. Are you talking about a program that used the syscall interface to call select rather than the C library? I can easily imagine Sun getting that wrong in the early days of Solaris. But guess what, trussing a program that uses syscall(SYS_select, ...) on Solaris 2.4 shows that it's *still* calling poll. > You are correct that SVR4 as shipped by Novell/SCO still implement > select() as select(3) instead of select(2) As does Solaris, UXP, and NEWS/OS and MP/RAS. Of the SVR4 systems I have only IRIX has select(2). > This, however, places their operating system in violation of SVID III, > which specificies select(RT) will take a timeval struct argument. What are you talking about? select(3) takes a struct timeval argument. > We can make this case, because SVID III getitimer(RT) and setitimer(RT) > specifies the use of the system clock frequency, whereas gettimeofday(RT) > specifies system clock update frequency. > > > Technically, then, SVR4 derived OS's which implement select() as > select(3) instead of select(2) have converted it from system clock to > system clock update. > > This is in violation of SVID III select(RT) definition. Whether it is or not seems of little concern to the readers of freebsd-hackers. > So you may argue that certain OS's implement select(3) all you want, > but those OS's are not System V OS's by virtue of their failure to > comply with SVID III. But Terry, we don't care. > Military contractors, listen up: SVR4 is not SVID compliant; DFARS > and AFCAC requisition guidelines specify SVID. Be prepared to have > to provide sole-source justification if you recommend SCO/Novell SVR4 > instead of Solaris 2.x (x>=3). > > 8-P. But Terry, we don't care. > > At the other end of the spectrum poll doesn't allow for arbitrarily > > long delays, i.e. longer than MAXINT ms. A new API is needed that > > takes, e.g. a struct timeval instead of an int to request large delays. > > We could call it select(2). 8-). Not if it has a poll-like interface instead of fd_sets. Select just isn't optimal for dealing with small sets of file descriptors, particularly when the file descriptors are large numbers (which may be a pathological case.) Okay, even in the worst case, FD_SETSIZE is pretty small on FreeBSD -- only 256 bits. Is this a compromize for speed, or because of a limited kernel stack space? Most other systems have larger default values. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 12:37:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA24154 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA24138 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA06849 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:45:16 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA11388; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:43:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605281743.KAA11388@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:43:29 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605280125.VAA17242@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 27, 96 09:25:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Any thoughts on writing a poll() which allows a variable number of bits > > > > passed in the fd_set (or new) structure to get around FD_SETSIZE limits > > > > > > Poll is (finally) specified in Spec1170 and it doesn't use bits in an > > > fd_set. If you want a system call that does this, don't call it poll. > > > > And if you want a poll() system call that has beeter than 10ms timer > > resoloution, don't call it poll(). The select() call *does* have > > some advantages over poll(), still. > > Yup, well, seems like we've had this talk before. The spec for poll > allows delays with 1ms resolution. You can argue all you want about > how the SVR4 poll implementation is inherently flawed to yield the > actual 10ms granularity you cite, and you're no doubt correct, but > that doesn't mean that a FreeBSD implementation need be similarly > flawed. SVID III states that the expiry resoloution can be at the system clock update frequency -- which is the frequency at which the RAM copy of the system clock is updated from the real system clock to bypass the need for real (potentially slow) clock access on each call to retrieve the value of the system clock. On Solaris, the system clock update frequency is 10ms (100Hz). I don't know of *any* UNIX implementation where the standard Hz is set to 1000, which is what it would take to support your 1ms resolution. In any case, I want 200uS resoloution. Select(2) on SunOS followed by a call to gettimeofday() on a SPARCStation 1+ has a 4uS potential resoloution, assuming non-full use of process quantum (which is an entirely different problem). > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > than poll. When Solaris 2.1 introduces SunOS 4.x binary compatability, I (within a day of receiving it) reported that it would not run statically linked SunOS 4.x binaries which used the select(2) (and a couple of other) system calls. Sun corrected this in Solaris 2.3. You are correct that SVR4 as shipped by Novell/SCO still implement select() as select(3) instead of select(2) (as Solaris now does). This, however, places their operating system in violation of SVID III, which specificies select(RT) will take a timeval struct argument. We can make this case, because SVID III getitimer(RT) and setitimer(RT) specifies the use of the system clock frequency, whereas gettimeofday(RT) specifies system clock update frequency. Technically, then, SVR4 derived OS's which implement select() as select(3) instead of select(2) have converted it from system clock to system clock update. This is in violation of SVID III select(RT) definition. So you may argue that certain OS's implement select(3) all you want, but those OS's are not System V OS's by virtue of their failure to comply with SVID III. Military contractors, listen up: SVR4 is not SVID compliant; DFARS and AFCAC requisition guidelines specify SVID. Be prepared to have to provide sole-source justification if you recommend SCO/Novell SVR4 instead of Solaris 2.x (x>=3). 8-P. > At the other end of the spectrum poll doesn't allow for arbitrarily > long delays, i.e. longer than MAXINT ms. A new API is needed that > takes, e.g. a struct timeval instead of an int to request large delays. We could call it select(2). 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 12:44:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA24560 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (h196-7-192-152.iafrica.com [196.7.192.152]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA24524 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA00188; Tue, 28 May 1996 21:40:01 +0200 From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199605281940.VAA00188@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 21:39:59 +0200 (SAT) Cc: rnordier@iafrica.com, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605281801.LAA11424@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 28, 96 11:01:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > > Automatic beautifiers can only be applied > > to complete, syntactically correct programs and hence > > are not available when the need for attention to white > > space and indentation is greatest. > > This is no longer true because of language sensitive editor technology, > as in Brief, the UNIX "Brief clone", and the Borland and Microsoft > offerings. Yes, this works pretty well in currently available tools. I remember it used to work very badly, particularly with some interpreters which wanted to entoken everything before moving to the next line. But that's history. > > (For those influenced by Classical allusions, the Greek legend of > > Procrustes is also very apposite.) > > As opposed to "opposite" or "apostate"? 8-) 8-). "appestat ... apposed ... epicyte ... opacity". :) :) ("apposite: well-expressed; appropriate" [COD], if anyone's guessing) > > I think Greg's concern in valid, but this is one of Nature's > > Insoluble Problems. Let's have some sanity, please! > > At one time I suggested running a "beautifier" on code as part of the > CVS commit process. I still like the idea. > > I also like the idea of running a local style template on checkout > from a CVS tree. 8-). A local style template on checkout isn't a bad idea. If only 'indent' were just a little smarter. But (just when things seem to be going well) it comes up with: static char *f_args[F_ARGS] = { "160", "180", "320", "360", /* K_ARGS */ "720", "1200", "1440", "2880", "1.2", "1.44", "2.88" /* M_ARGS */ }; static struct BPB stdbpb[BPBCNT] = { {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 320, 0xfe, 1, 8, 1, 0, 0}, /* 160K */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 64, 360, 0xfc, 2, 9, 1, 0, 0}, /* 180K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 640, 0xff, 1, 8, 2, 0, 0}, /* 320K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 720, 0xfd, 2, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 360K */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 112, 1440, 0xf9, 3, 9, 2, 0, 0}, /* 720K */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2400, 0xf9, 7, 15, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.2M */ {512, 1, 1, 2, 224, 2880, 0xf0, 9, 18, 2, 0, 0}, /* 1.44M */ {512, 2, 1, 2, 240, 5760, 0xf0, 9, 36, 2, 0, 0} /* 2.88M */ }; > Obviously, much of KNF style has evolved from the defaults for the > vi editor and other tools to allow quick reference of the code (ie: > "grep \^functionname *.c" to find: > > > functionname( ... > > and so on. As long as these tools are "the approved tools", then > there needs to be some form of style enforcement to allow them to > work as expected (my own placement of spacing in parenthesis allows > editor macros to directly access tags files and man pages. Obviously, > it's also a tools-driven decision). Yes, there's a lot of sense in that. If one is going to accept the complex equivalence programming == science || engineering there hardly seems room for dispute. But there still is a (diminishing) programming == art || craft crowd around, to whom form is as important as function. And legislating stylistics is going to seem like the violation of some fundamental right (rite?) of self-expression. I think my main point is that a "What is not forbidden should be made compulsory" attitude is likely to make a few (maybe eccentric) souls unhappy. And maybe the issue is just too contentious for common-sense to prevail. -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 14:09:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA29221 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA29195 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA08160 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 13:43:21 -0700 Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA26001; Tue, 28 May 96 16:42:42 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id QAA19909; Tue, 28 May 1996 16:42:35 -0400 Message-Id: <199605282042.QAA19909@exalt.x.org> To: Matt Thomas Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 14:31:52 EST. <199605281431.OAA18898@whydos.lkg.dec.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 16:42:34 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > In <199605281118.HAA17563@exalt.x.org> , you wrote: > > Since Kaleb mentioned Digital UNIX as one O/S that implements poll, > I though it might be useful to elaborate on that a bit. > Digital UNIX has both the poll(2) and select(2) system calls. Both > are syscalls in fact. Are you making a distinction between a "system call" and a "syscall"? I did make a specific point of saying that Digital UNIX, among others, has both select and poll as system calls, i.e. direct entries to the kernel -- not library calls. > However, since poll has more functionality > that select the kernel infrastructure is build around poll rather > than select. When you talk about additional functionality are you refering to the additional bits in events/revents? For example the extra bits in revents like POLLHUP, which when returned in revents, tells you that the socket has closed rather than having to infer that the socket has closed when you get a POLLRD and ioctl(fd, FIONREAD, &bytes_to_read) returns zero in bytes_to_read? Or that POLLNORM tells you that (any) data can be read, whereas POLLIN tells you only when normal priority data can be read, POLLPRI tells you when high priority data can be read, and POLLRDBAND tells you when non-zero priority data can be read? (What is the difference between high priority data and non-zero band data?) Or that POLLOUT tells you when zero band data can be written and POLLWRBAND tells you when non-zero band data can be written? Using send/recv you can specify the MSG_OOB flag to send/receive non-zero band data. Using putmsg/getmsg (spec'ed in Spec1170 but not available in FreeBSD) you can specify RS_HIPRI to send/receive high priority messages. My ignorance of TCP/IP will show when I ask whether there's a difference between non-zero band data and high priority messages. On systems that have both is there a difference between send(..., MSG_OOB) and putmsg(..., RS_HIPRI)? The select exception mask is poorly documented. Stevens' "UNIX Network Programming" and examination of the Net/2 and later sources reveals that the exception mask, when used on a socket, means that high priority data may be read. (N.B. Stevens also says that it is used to indicate "The presence of control status information to be read from the master side of a pseudo-terminal that has been put into packet mode." However I was unable to find any other select handler in the 2.1R sources that used the exception mask.) Also, there is no way, using select, to discover that high priority data may be written to a socket. One must resort to other mechanisms. In fact, when I looked at the interface between select and the socket code, it appeared that the socket code was not capable of supporting the richer set of conditions that poll (as defined in Spec1170) supports. I concluded that the best I could hope to accomplish at this time would be to mimic the poll support that SunOS has, i.e. only support POLLIN, POLLOUT, and POLLPRI. > The select kernel code actually calls poll code in > side the kernel. Internally, the kernel uses a timeval; poll's ms > timeout gets converted to a timeval. That's similar to what I have for polltv and poll. Polltv takes a timeval while poll takes an int that's converted in the kernel to a timeval and then merely calls polltv. The int argument in poll could just as easily be converted in the library and then call polltv, but since there's an open spot in that corresponds to the SYS_poll entry on SunOS, I presumed that it was just waiting for an implementation in order to be filled in, and polltv gets tacked onto the end of syscall list. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 14:10:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA29622 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA29600 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA07905 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 13:11:53 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA11719; Tue, 28 May 1996 13:10:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605282010.NAA11719@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 13:10:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605281859.OAA19612@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 28, 96 02:59:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > > > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > > > than poll. > > > > When Solaris 2.1 introduces SunOS 4.x binary compatability, I (within > > a day of receiving it) reported that it would not run statically > > linked SunOS 4.x binaries which used the select(2) (and a couple of > > other) system calls. > > > > Sun corrected this in Solaris 2.3. > > > There is no select(2) in Solaris 2.4 or 2.5. I statically linked a > trivial program that uses select on SunOS 4.1.3 and trussed it on > Solaris 2.4 -- it calls poll. Are you talking about a program that > used the syscall interface to call select rather than the C library? > I can easily imagine Sun getting that wrong in the early days of Solaris. > But guess what, trussing a program that uses syscall(SYS_select, ...) > on Solaris 2.4 shows that it's *still* calling poll. Trace it with the SunOS 4.1.3 trace instead. It will say "select". I suspect that there are different systent[] tables in use, just like the ABI support in FreeBSD uses. > > This, however, places their operating system in violation of SVID III, > > which specificies select(RT) will take a timeval struct argument. > > What are you talking about? select(3) takes a struct timeval argument. Sorry. will *USE* a struct timeval argument to the best of the systems ability (system clock frequency), not *TRUNCATE* it to what it feels like (system clock update frequency). > > Technically, then, SVR4 derived OS's which implement select() as > > select(3) instead of select(2) have converted it from system clock to > > system clock update. > > > > This is in violation of SVID III select(RT) definition. > > > Whether it is or not seems of little concern to the readers of > freebsd-hackers. You were using SVR4's implementation of select(3) on top of poll(2) as an argument for poll(2), with a presumption that the resoloution would move to 1ms (which is still too damn large for most useful things, like click-timing or mouse-motion accelerators). The select(3) argument is inherently flawed because the SVR4 systems that use the approach you suggest are in violation of their own specifications. "Here is a bad practice example of why this is an acceptable practice" just doesn't fly. > Not if it has a poll-like interface instead of fd_sets. Select just > isn't optimal for dealing with small sets of file descriptors, > particularly when the file descriptors are large numbers (which may > be a pathological case.) Okay, even in the worst case, FD_SETSIZE is > pretty small on FreeBSD -- only 256 bits. Is this a compromize for > speed, or because of a limited kernel stack space? Most other systems > have larger default values. The set size limitations are a result of the FD_SETSIZE, an advisory value, being used as a copyin limit in kernel space. In point of fact, the limit is derivable from the nfds argument to select. Use a -current kernel instead of a 2.1.0R kernel and I believe this has been fixed for you. The poll(2) interface does not save the copyin because it provides an array address. User space array contents are not directly addressable from kernel space, so you are still stuck. The only overhead it saves is the mask reset overhead in user space, which it trades for bit clearing overhead in kernel space. Big deal. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 14:17:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00490 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00461; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ginger.eng.umd.edu (ginger.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.204]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06492; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by ginger.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA07016; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 17:17:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@ginger.eng.umd.edu To: Don Yuniskis cc: FreeBSD hackers , FreeBSD questions Subject: Re: Previous version CD's (again) In-Reply-To: <199605281934.MAA10756@seagull.rtd.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 28 May 1996, Don Yuniskis wrote: > Greetings! > I've been trying to build a complete archive of past > FBSD releases and have been searching for older CD-ROMs. > I'm currently looking for the following versions: > 1.1.5.1R (I don't think there was a 1.1.5R) I don't think there was a 1.1.5.1 cdrom, just a 1.1 (which I have). > 1.0 > any "pre 1.0" stuff (i.e. 386BSD) > And, any CD-ROMs that were *not* pressed by W.C. Pointers > to existing archive sites would also be appreciated (to pick > up some of the goodies that *aren't* on the CD-ROMs). > If you are interested in parting with any of the above, > please drop me a line to minimize the noise on these lists. > Thanks alot! > --don > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 14:18:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00511 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00487 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 14:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA26737; Tue, 28 May 96 17:16:55 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id RAA19947; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:16:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199605282116.RAA19947@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 13:10:02 EST. <199605282010.NAA11719@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 17:16:53 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > And, FWIW, SVR4 select(3) is implemented using poll(2), so select on > > > > SVR4, in and of itself, isn't going to have any better granularity > > > > than poll. > > > > > > When Solaris 2.1 introduces SunOS 4.x binary compatability, I (within > > > a day of receiving it) reported that it would not run statically > > > linked SunOS 4.x binaries which used the select(2) (and a couple of > > > other) system calls. > > > > > > Sun corrected this in Solaris 2.3. > > > > > > There is no select(2) in Solaris 2.4 or 2.5. I statically linked a > > trivial program that uses select on SunOS 4.1.3 and trussed it on > > Solaris 2.4 -- it calls poll. Are you talking about a program that > > used the syscall interface to call select rather than the C library? > > I can easily imagine Sun getting that wrong in the early days of Solaris. > > But guess what, trussing a program that uses syscall(SYS_select, ...) > > on Solaris 2.4 shows that it's *still* calling poll. > > Trace it with the SunOS 4.1.3 trace instead. It will say "select". Sorry Charlie. No workie. If it ever did. A nm dump on /usr/4lib/libc.so.1.8 says select is UNDEF. ldd on the same file shows a dependency on /usr/lib/libc.so.1. As far as I can tell, and as far as the native mode truss shows, it all comes down to poll. Ain't no select(2) system call in Solaris. > > I suspect that there are different systent[] tables in use, just > like the ABI support in FreeBSD uses. Anecdotal evidence is no evidence. > > > This, however, places their operating system in violation of SVID III, > > > which specificies select(RT) will take a timeval struct argument. > > > > What are you talking about? select(3) takes a struct timeval argument. > > Sorry. will *USE* a struct timeval argument to the best of the > systems ability (system clock frequency), not *TRUNCATE* it to what > it feels like (system clock update frequency). > > > > Technically, then, SVR4 derived OS's which implement select() as > > > select(3) instead of select(2) have converted it from system clock to > > > system clock update. > > > > > > This is in violation of SVID III select(RT) definition. > > > > > > Whether it is or not seems of little concern to the readers of > > freebsd-hackers. > > You were using SVR4's implementation of select(3) on top of poll(2) > as an argument for poll(2), with a presumption that the resoloution > would move to 1ms (which is still too damn large for most useful > things, like click-timing or mouse-motion accelerators). All I've said is that poll(2) (and polltv(2)) have their merits. At no time have I suggested that select(2) should be replaced with a select(3) that's implemented with poll(2). > The select(3) argument is inherently flawed because the SVR4 systems > that use the approach you suggest are in violation of their own > specifications. What is it you think I'm suggesting? All I've said is that poll(2) (and polltv(2)) have their merits. At no time have I suggested that select(2) should be replaced with a select(3) that's implemented with poll(2). > "Here is a bad practice example of why this is an acceptable practice" > just doesn't fly. Huh? > > Not if it has a poll-like interface instead of fd_sets. Select just > > isn't optimal for dealing with small sets of file descriptors, > > particularly when the file descriptors are large numbers (which may > > be a pathological case.) Okay, even in the worst case, FD_SETSIZE is > > pretty small on FreeBSD -- only 256 bits. Is this a compromize for > > speed, or because of a limited kernel stack space? Most other systems > > have larger default values. > > The set size limitations are a result of the FD_SETSIZE, an advisory > value, being used as a copyin limit in kernel space. > > In point of fact, the limit is derivable from the nfds argument to > select. As long as it's <= FD_SETSIZE. > Use a -current kernel instead of a 2.1.0R kernel and I > believe this has been fixed for you. Yeah, well, I bet there's a lot of things the release-du-hour kernel does. I already have one system I seem to compile on an hourly basis. I don't need another. > The poll(2) interface does not save the copyin because it provides > an array address. Are you having a similar debate with someone else? I never claimed that it avoided a copyin. I just said that in some (pathological) cases it stood a good chance of needing to copyin less. > User space array contents are not directly > addressable from kernel space, so you are still stuck. C'mon Terry, what are you saying? It has to be directly addressable in order for copyin/copyout to work. Half the 2.1R kernel still uses memcpy or bcopy instead of copyin/copyout. McKusick's new book explains how this works, quite eloquently I think. > The only > overhead it saves is the mask reset overhead in user space, which > it trades for bit clearing overhead in kernel space. Big deal. It turns into a big deal if I want to select for read, write, and except on file descriptor 254. That's a lot of copying for one file descriptor. Imagine what it'd be like if FD_SETSIZE was 1024 or 4096 like it is on a lot of systems. And using poll I don't have to do *any* of the bit twiddling in user space or in kernel space. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 15:10:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06001 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05895; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:09:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA06869 ; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:46:37 -0700 Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id KAA26693; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOSmp-000QYRC; Tue, 28 May 96 19:42 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA27032; Tue, 28 May 1996 19:29:50 +0200 Message-Id: <199605281729.TAA27032@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 19:29:49 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <20757.833304229@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at May 28, 96 10:23:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > >> 8 is too much but we're stuck with it. There is something to be said >> for the discipline required to minimise nesting. Don't right code like >> this: > > Or you could be entirely heretical, like me, and go to 4 column tabs and > 120 column formatting. :-) > > I used to be an 80 column / 8 column tabstop kinda guy right up until > about a year ago, when I underwent a sea change and decided that if > programming styles could change radically in response to increasing > memory and disk resources, then it could damn well change in response > to the bitmap display revolution. :-) At 120 columns, I now have much > more room to display text, not needing to chop complex expressions > into multi-line unreadability or make 72 column text (for output) with > crap around it much more difficult to format. This isn't really technical any more--let's move it to chat. I suppose I shouldn't be saying this, because I wanted my suggestion to be independent of my own position, but I suppose it's relevant, so here goes: I started indenting my Algol 60 programs with 6 character tabs, because that's what the program drums on the 029s had set. It didn't take me long to get down to 5, and I've been decreasing ever since. I'm now down to 2, and I think that's as much as anybody can stand. In the early 70s, when working for Tandem, I found myself forced to limit my column width to 107 or 108, because that's all Tandem's TAL compiler could stand. I haven't really changed that one: my xterms are still 110 characters wide, and out of deference to people who still run 80x2[45], I haven't changed. > I also realize that this is going to be a highly unpopular position to > take in these comparatively early days of GUI technology, so be it - > just consider me 3-4 years ahead of my time on this issue. :-) I'd say that any position on indentation is going to be unpopular somewhere. Now these damned hanging {s... Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 15:11:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06423 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06327 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA06685 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:24:10 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA20759; Tue, 28 May 1996 10:23:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Bruce Evans cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 May 1996 20:35:53 +1000." <199605281035.UAA13366@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 10:23:49 -0700 Message-ID: <20757.833304229@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 8 is too much but we're stuck with it. There is something to be said > for the discipline required to minimise nesting. Don't right code like > this: Or you could be entirely heretical, like me, and go to 4 column tabs and 120 column formatting. :-) I used to be an 80 column / 8 column tabstop kinda guy right up until about a year ago, when I underwent a sea change and decided that if programming styles could change radically in response to increasing memory and disk resources, then it could damn well change in response to the bitmap display revolution. :-) At 120 columns, I now have much more room to display text, not needing to chop complex expressions into multi-line unreadability or make 72 column text (for output) with crap around it much more difficult to format. I also realize that this is going to be a highly unpopular position to take in these comparatively early days of GUI technology, so be it - just consider me 3-4 years ahead of my time on this issue. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 15:38:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10160 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10147 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA12003; Tue, 28 May 1996 15:36:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605282236.PAA12003@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 15:36:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605282116.RAA19947@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 28, 96 05:16:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Trace it with the SunOS 4.1.3 trace instead. It will say "select". > > Sorry Charlie. No workie. If it ever did. A nm dump on /usr/4lib/libc.so.1.8 > says select is UNDEF. ldd on the same file shows a dependency on > /usr/lib/libc.so.1. As far as I can tell, and as far as the native mode > truss shows, it all comes down to poll. Ain't no select(2) system call > in Solaris. > > > > > I suspect that there are different systent[] tables in use, just > > like the ABI support in FreeBSD uses. > > > Anecdotal evidence is no evidence. Trace it on a SunOS 4.1.3 *box*. Note "#define SYS_select 93" in /usr/include/syscall.h on your 4.1.3 box. Note "#define SYS_poll 153" in /usr/include/syscall.h on your 4.1.3 box. Note "man select" returning "select(2)". Note "man poll" returning "poll(2)". Note "man 3 select" returning "not found". Select in 4.1.3 is a system call. A statically linked 4.1.3 binary will trap the select(2) stub through trap entry 93. A 4.1.3 binary calling "syscall(SYS_select, nfds, rfds, wfds, xfds, tvp)" will trap through entry 93. A Solaris "5.x" binary calling through the manifest address for SYS_select via "syscall(93, nfds, rfds, wfds, xfds, tvp)" will trap through entry 93. That's the way it is. If truss lies to you... too bad. > What is it you think I'm suggesting? All I've said is that poll(2) (and > polltv(2)) have their merits. At no time have I suggested that select(2) > should be replaced with a select(3) that's implemented with poll(2). Poll's merits are on the basis of an improper implementation of select. > > The set size limitations are a result of the FD_SETSIZE, an advisory > > value, being used as a copyin limit in kernel space. > > > > In point of fact, the limit is derivable from the nfds argument to > > select. > > As long as it's <= FD_SETSIZE. Bunk. If the kernel uses FD_SETSIZE at all, it's broken. Poll has limits on the number of fd's as well; they are the same limits as select imposes (signed int). > > Use a -current kernel instead of a 2.1.0R kernel and I > > believe this has been fixed for you. > > Yeah, well, I bet there's a lot of things the release-du-hour kernel > does. I already have one system I seem to compile on an hourly basis. > I don't need another. Well, that's the fix. It's not like 2.1R would suddenly grow a poll() call if you fixed it -- it would go into -current, if it went in, and you'd still have your "release-du-hour" problem staring you in the face. > C'mon Terry, what are you saying? It has to be directly addressable > in order for copyin/copyout to work. Half the 2.1R kernel still uses > memcpy or bcopy instead of copyin/copyout. McKusick's new book explains > how this works, quite eloquently I think. ??? I don't see this... unless the area is mmapped, it doesn't have a kernel PTD. > > The only > > overhead it saves is the mask reset overhead in user space, which > > it trades for bit clearing overhead in kernel space. Big deal. > > It turns into a big deal if I want to select for read, write, and > except on file descriptor 254. That's a lot of copying for one file > descriptor. Imagine what it'd be like if FD_SETSIZE was 1024 or 4096 > like it is on a lot of systems. And using poll I don't have to do *any* > of the bit twiddling in user space or in kernel space. I can make the same argument about traversing the array; the original complaint about ~250 was an IRC server that was running over 256 entries and using an old kernel before the FD_SETSIZE was ripped out of the kernel space. For 250 fd's, traversing a 250 entry array in kernel space in order to do the job is at least as annoying. For something only doing one or two descriptors, it doesn't *need* the minimalized overhead that something that has to be responsive to 250 clients needs. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 17:00:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA15880 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.net (sydney2.world.net [198.142.12.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA15869 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by world.net (8.7.4/8.6.6) with ESMTP id JAA05008 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:58:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.7.4/Proff-950810) id KAA30537 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:00:06 +1000 From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199605290000.KAA30537@suburbia.net> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:00:06 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199605281801.LAA11424@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 28, 96 11:01:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > At one time I suggested running a "beautifier" on code as part of the > CVS commit process. I still like the idea. > > I also like the idea of running a local style template on checkout > from a CVS tree. 8-). I considered something like this before, except that all possible white space is removed before submitting to the archive, so you save space and never have commit conflicts on white-space (which is dumb). -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 17:24:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17299 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17178 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 17:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA04170; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:11:49 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605290041.KAA04170@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: memcpy/strcpy optimisation To: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:11:48 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605281900.FAA10527@suburbia.net> from "Julian Assange" at May 29, 96 05:00:30 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Assange stands accused of saying: > > > Has anyone had a look at http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/~laik/benchmarks/paper/talk.ps? > > It details a method to increase bus performence on pentiums u.. when using strcpy/memcpy > around 5 times. Do you read -hackers, or just offer drive-by advice? (FYR, the technique they describe doesn't work in a 'real' environment, and several people _are_ working actively on coming up with a solution that _does_. Go read the -hackers and -current archives and search for 'bcopy') > --Proff -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 18:16:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21203 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 18:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lynx.its.unimelb.edu.au (lynx.its.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.20.151]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA21198 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 18:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by lynx.its.unimelb.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03783; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:14:00 +1000 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 11:13:59 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Dennis cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alias IP addresses In-Reply-To: <199605272311.TAA09154@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 27 May 1996, Dennis wrote: > > Is there a way do display all of the addresses associated with > an interface? netstat -ian does a reasonable job. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 18:16:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21235 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 18:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21227 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 18:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA01051; Tue, 28 May 96 21:15:46 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id VAA20117; Tue, 28 May 1996 21:15:45 -0400 Message-Id: <199605290115.VAA20117@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 May 1996 15:36:02 EST. <199605282236.PAA12003@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 21:15:44 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Trace it with the SunOS 4.1.3 trace instead. It will say "select". > > > > Sorry Charlie. No workie. If it ever did. A nm dump on /usr/4lib/libc.so.1.8 > > says select is UNDEF. ldd on the same file shows a dependency on > > /usr/lib/libc.so.1. As far as I can tell, and as far as the native mode > > truss shows, it all comes down to poll. Ain't no select(2) system call > > in Solaris. > > > > > > > > I suspect that there are different systent[] tables in use, just > > > like the ABI support in FreeBSD uses. > > > > > > Anecdotal evidence is no evidence. > > Trace it on a SunOS 4.1.3 *box*. Obviously it will say select on a 4.1.3 box. So what? The question that has led us down this primrose path is whether Solaris has select. > Note "#define SYS_select 93" in /usr/include/syscall.h on your 4.1.3 box. > Note "#define SYS_poll 153" in /usr/include/syscall.h on your 4.1.3 box. > > Note "man select" returning "select(2)". > Note "man poll" returning "poll(2)". > > Note "man 3 select" returning "not found". Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me something I don't know. > Select in 4.1.3 is a system call. No duh. Hey everyone, select in 4.1.3 is a system call. > A statically linked 4.1.3 binary will trap the select(2) stub through > trap entry 93. What evidence do you have that it's even trapping? Everything could be handled in the library and truss could be telling the truth -- that it's using poll. We do know how truss works. It traps, and inspects the processor state to see what triggered the trap. > A 4.1.3 binary calling "syscall(SYS_select, nfds, rfds, wfds, xfds, tvp)" > will trap through entry 93. > > > A Solaris "5.x" binary calling through the manifest address for SYS_select > via "syscall(93, nfds, rfds, wfds, xfds, tvp)" will trap through entry 93. Well, if it were calling through entry 93, and it printed fchmod (which is what syscall 93 is on Solaris) instead of poll, then I might believe you that truss is confused. > That's the way it is. > > If truss lies to you... too bad. Umh, yeah, right. I'm from Missouri. Truss says it's poll. Black. White. Black. White. I see where this is going. > > What is it you think I'm suggesting? All I've said is that poll(2) (and > > polltv(2)) have their merits. At no time have I suggested that select(2) > > should be replaced with a select(3) that's implemented with poll(2). > > Poll's merits are on the basis of an improper implementation of select. Well, that's the first time *that* has come up. Pray tell, now what's wrong with select. > > > The set size limitations are a result of the FD_SETSIZE, an advisory > > > value, being used as a copyin limit in kernel space. > > > > > > In point of fact, the limit is derivable from the nfds argument to > > > select. > > > > As long as it's <= FD_SETSIZE. > > Bunk. If the kernel uses FD_SETSIZE at all, it's broken. Poll has > limits on the number of fd's as well; they are the same limits as > select imposes (signed int). > > > > > Use a -current kernel instead of a 2.1.0R kernel and I > > > believe this has been fixed for you. > > > > Yeah, well, I bet there's a lot of things the release-du-hour kernel > > does. I already have one system I seem to compile on an hourly basis. > > I don't need another. > > Well, that's the fix. It's not like 2.1R would suddenly grow a poll() > call if you fixed it -- it would go into -current, if it went in, and > you'd still have your "release-du-hour" problem staring you in the > face. Sigh. If I implement poll on my 2.1R box, I have it in 2.1R. If I finish it and contribute it (which is my intention) it'll be integrated into -current if someone on the core team decides to adopt it. But I don't have to get -current to have it. But we digress. > > C'mon Terry, what are you saying? It has to be directly addressable > > in order for copyin/copyout to work. Half the 2.1R kernel still uses > > memcpy or bcopy instead of copyin/copyout. McKusick's new book explains > > how this works, quite eloquently I think. > > ??? > > I don't see this... unless the area is mmapped, it doesn't have a > kernel PTD. Lessee. The process is making a system call. The process is passing parameters. I dunno Terry, seems to me like the area has to be mapped. Copyin/copyout looked pretty simple to me. The explanation in the 4.4BSD book seemed pretty simple too. Do you have a different explanation? But we're still digressing. Passing parameters in a syscall isn't rocket science, and it's hardly the topic at hand. > > > The only > > > overhead it saves is the mask reset overhead in user space, which > > > it trades for bit clearing overhead in kernel space. Big deal. > > > > It turns into a big deal if I want to select for read, write, and > > except on file descriptor 254. That's a lot of copying for one file > > descriptor. Imagine what it'd be like if FD_SETSIZE was 1024 or 4096 > > like it is on a lot of systems. And using poll I don't have to do *any* > > of the bit twiddling in user space or in kernel space. > > I can make the same argument about traversing the array; the original > complaint about ~250 was an IRC server that was running over 256 > entries and using an old kernel before the FD_SETSIZE was ripped out > of the kernel space. > > For 250 fd's, traversing a 250 entry array in kernel space in order > to do the job is at least as annoying. Annoying isn't the adjective I would use to describe the instructions necessary to bit-twiddle 250 file descriptors out of one or more fd_sets. Extracting just the part of the code that does this from 2.1R sys_generic.c, and inlining the ffs call results in nearly 70 instructions. Okay, so maybe it's not fair to inline. Without the inline it's 60 instructions and the overhead of the function call. And it doesn't really matter whether there's two fds or 2000 fds, it's the same 70 instructions. The equivalent code to extract the fds from an array needs five instructions. You figure it out. > For something only doing one or two descriptors, it doesn't *need* > the minimalized overhead that something that has to be responsive > to 250 clients needs. Are you making assumptions about how many of these two-file-descriptor programs are running? -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 20:42:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA00615 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 20:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA00606 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 20:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA05697; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:29:45 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605290359.NAA05697@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:29:44 +0930 (CST) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20757.833304229@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at May 28, 96 10:23:49 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > 8 is too much but we're stuck with it. There is something to be said > > for the discipline required to minimise nesting. Don't right code like > > this: > > Or you could be entirely heretical, like me, and go to 4 column tabs and > 120 column formatting. :-) Nobody barfed on the 100-column stuff in userconfig, so I was presuming this wasn't an issue. If anyone wants to see what 80-column braindamage looks like, they should scope out pcvt. (or was it syscons? I can't remember...) > I also realize that this is going to be a highly unpopular position to > take in these comparatively early days of GUI technology, so be it - > just consider me 3-4 years ahead of my time on this issue. :-) Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 21:02:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01775 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 21:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anacreon.sol.net (anacreon.sol.net [206.55.64.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA01770 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solaria.sol.net (solaria.sol.net [206.55.65.75]) by anacreon.sol.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA08000 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:02:21 -0500 Received: from localhost by solaria.sol.net (8.5/8.5) id XAA25324; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:04:13 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199605290404.XAA25324@solaria.sol.net> Subject: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 28 May 96 23:04:11 CDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL65] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I finally went and did it. :-) I added a flag to mount to tell FFS not to worry about the datestamps on inodes. Intended goal: on a busy news server with a hundred articles per second going out the door, I felt that it might not be reasonable to try to write the st_atime changes back out to the disk. Basically, no one gives a rip, and that's a lotta writes that I don't have time or disk bandwidth to do. I haven't done any benchmarks. However, I did see the machine peak at 9.7 articles per second, beating the previous 7.6, which might have been due to this change, or maybe not. Am I just totally whacked out, or is this perhaps a reasonable thing to do, given that I'd really rather not have to absorb the extra write activity on the filesystems... does anybody else perceive any value along these lines of thought? (I don't pretend to think my patches are complete or correct, btw, I just wanted to see how badly I could mess things up. In particular due to the way I did things, file dates don't get set on a create, either, so all my files are dated 1969. The "ideal" solution might set the date correctly on a create, but not touch it on a modify or a read). ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue May 28 23:43:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12708 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gandalf.me.ksu.edu (root@gandalf.me.ksu.edu [129.130.41.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12698 for ; Tue, 28 May 1996 23:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kali.me.ksu.edu (joed@kali.me.ksu.edu [129.130.41.83]) by gandalf.me.ksu.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA19211 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:43:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from joed@localhost) by kali.me.ksu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id BAA08683 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:43:37 -0500 From: Joe Diehl Message-Id: <199605290643.BAA08683@kali.me.ksu.edu> Subject: Motif and FreeBSD/Xfree86 To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 01:43:37 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okie, I'm still about 1700 messages backlogged on reading all the FreeBSD mailing lists (sometime in mid April I believe), but a simple grep of the mail folder didn't turn up anything interesting so here we go: My present understanding is that I am covered under a community license of Motif. I have full access to all the source and documentation for Motif 1.2.x and Motif 2.x. However, the last time I sat down to compile Motif for FreeBSD, my xterm literally scrolled several screens full of errors. Question is simply, has anyone tried to compile Motif before, or know of any pointers to help me compile this properly? I am aware of the various precompiled Motif alternatives, but as a college student I must look for any cheap (aka free) alternative I can find. 8-) Thanks... :) --- Joe Diehl Network and Systems Administrator KSU College of Engineering From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 00:37:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA15487 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 00:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sivka.rdy.com (sivka.rdy.com [205.149.182.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA15482 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 00:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dima@localhost by sivka.rdy.com id AAA06175; (8.7/RDY) Wed, 29 May 1996 00:21:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dima Ruban" Message-Id: <960529002151.ZM6174@sivka.rdy.com> Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 00:21:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: Joe Diehl "Motif and FreeBSD/Xfree86" (May 29, 1:43am) References: <199605290643.BAA08683@kali.me.ksu.edu> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0b.514 14may96) To: Joe Diehl , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Motif and FreeBSD/Xfree86 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On May 29, 1:43am, Joe Diehl wrote: > Subject: Motif and FreeBSD/Xfree86 > Okie, I'm still about 1700 messages backlogged on reading all the FreeBSD > mailing lists (sometime in mid April I believe), but a simple grep of the > mail folder didn't turn up anything interesting so here we go: > > My present understanding is that I am covered under a community license > of Motif. I have full access to all the source and documentation for > Motif 1.2.x and Motif 2.x. However, the last time I sat down to compile > Motif for FreeBSD, my xterm literally scrolled several screens full of > errors. > > Question is simply, has anyone tried to compile Motif before, or know of > any pointers to help me compile this properly? ask guys from xinside.com :-) > > I am aware of the various precompiled Motif alternatives, but as a > college student I must look for any cheap (aka free) alternative I > can find. 8-) > > Thanks... :) > > --- > Joe Diehl > Network and Systems Administrator > KSU College of Engineering > >-- End of excerpt from Joe Diehl -- -- dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 01:12:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA17169 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fisbin.remuda.com (fisbin.remuda.com [199.238.225.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA17131; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scotto@localhost) by fisbin.remuda.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA01656; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:11:52 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 01:11:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Overholser To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org Subject: SOLVED-->Re: sendmail read errors/timeouts etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk thanks all for the suggestions. some of you spent more than a few token cycles on this problem for me - thanks. the short answer is that i was running with an mtu of 296 via my 28.8 connection. the 296 was a relic from the 14.4 days. anyway, i changed it to 1500 and the problems are gone - it was like flipping a switch. the problem began when i replaced my rusty linux box running slip with the freebsd box running ppp. the troublesome sites apparently blocked tcp frags improperly (i know very little about implementing firewalls). i verified that with the nintendo folks. i can only guess about microsoft and msn. regardless, my problem is gone. thanks, scotto On Fri, 17 May 1996, Scott Overholser wrote: > sorry for spamming all these lists. i turned up hits on all of them when > i searched the mailing list archives. > > i recently replaced my email gateway with a freebsd 2.1.0 box. prior to > that it was a linux box (different hardware) running sendmail 8.6.11 and > 100% trouble free. now though, i am seeing sendmail errors when sending to > a few select sites. in addition, i see them when i receive from the same > sites. > > the troublesome sites (that i know of) are microsoft.com, msn.com, and > noa.com. i *absolutely* cannot send mail to recipient@microsoft.com or > recipient@noa.com. i seem to be able to send mail to recipient@msn.com > but i cannot receive mail from msn.com. mail to/from other sites is no > problem. > > here are some sample messages (although based on my search through the > archives, many of you have seen them before): > ---------->%snip>%---------- > com. [205.166.76.99], stat=Deferred: Operation timed out during client QUIT with > bowser.noa.com. > > m. [131.107.3.23], stat=Deferred: Connection reset by peer during client QUIT wi > th abash1.microsoft.com. > > May 15 00:31:17 fisbin sendmail[566]: XAA00566: SYSERR(root): collect: read time > out on connection from upsmot02.msn.com, from= > ---------->%snip>%---------- > > there are many more...mostly from the same sites though. i've checked > everything i can think of - dns config, resolver config, sendmail config > (cranked the timeouts absurdly high). nothing phases the problem. i don't > suspect hardware because of the number of posts from others having the > same problem. > > oh yeah, i also turned on sendmail logging and waded through that mess. it > looks like all the mail is xferred to the remote host on outbound mail and > xferred to my host on inbound mail but it dies on the QUIT. > > the really strange thing is that i don't get the errors when sending > directly to some hosts at microsoft. for example, if i send mail to > a-scotov@microsoft.com i may as well beat my head against a wall. on the > other hand, if i send the mail to a-scotov@exchange.microsoft.com the mail > is delivered (and i can send mail from a-scotov@exchange.microsoft.com to > scotto@remuda.com) - in case you hadn't guessed, i earn my daily bread at > microsoft. the difference between the two addresses is that the > exchange.microsoft.com address is an experimental mail server running > various stable builds of ms exchange. the microsoft.com address is the main > corporate gateway(s) running the shipping version of microsoft exchange. > > well, enough gab. does anyone have a solution to this problem?! this is > growing old. i know there are lots of folks out there on these mailing lists > that have had this problem. > > the only real answer suggested in the responses was from david greenman "these > are likely caused by transient connectivity hickups on the internet and can > almost certainly be ignored." however, i've gotta agree with john brogan who > said (over a year ago - with freebsd 1.1.5.1) "about 15 or 16 systems have > had this exact same problem...about 7,000 have not had any problems..." that's > exactly what i'm seeing (sort of). mail works but for a few sites - which > unfortunately i must correspond with on a daily basis. > > i confess a certain discomfort in suspecting the os rather than sendmail. > however, i've used sendmail for a long time and never experienced anything > like this without being able to attribute it to something i can sink my teeth > into. i certainly have a problem swallowing "transient network errors" > especially when the mail archives are peppered with posts from folks asking > the same question for over a year - not to mention the fact that i can send > email to/from sites other than the troublesome ones mentioned above whilst > my netbsd and linux running comrades don't seem to be experiencing any of > these troubles (i happen to be alone in running freebsd amonst a sea of > linux'ers and netbsd'ers). > > well, sorry for the spam, the length, and above all - the quasi-soapbox. > > if anyone at all has taken the time to read this fully, i appreciate it and > hope for a speedy solution. this weekend i'll probably switch the scsi ids > on my external drives and install netbsd to see if it fares any better in > sending mail to recip@microsoft.com et al. > > thanks > scotto > > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 01:37:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA18735 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA18727 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA27406; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:29:49 +1000 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:29:49 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605290829.SAA27406@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@freebsd.org, jgreco@solaria.sol.net Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I added a flag to mount to tell FFS not to worry about the datestamps on >inodes. >Intended goal: on a busy news server with a hundred articles per second >going out the door, I felt that it might not be reasonable to try to write >the st_atime changes back out to the disk. Basically, no one gives a rip, >and that's a lotta writes that I don't have time or disk bandwidth to do. Things like checking for mail actually depend on it. Changes to atimes are written to the disk asynchronously, except for utimes(2), so the bandwidth loss is not huge. News file systems probably lose more than most by thrashing the inode cache (another problem) so that async inode writes are almost sync. And perhaps something in your news software uses utimes() a lot? Once per (small) file creation is a lot. You get one or two sync updates for the creat/write/close and one sync update for utimes() - about 100% or 50% overhead. I think atimes should be cached (or permanently allocated) independently of their inodes. It would be reasonable to cache a few hundred thousand of them in memory. >Am I just totally whacked out, or is this perhaps a reasonable thing to do, Only for special file systems. >(I don't pretend to think my patches are complete or correct, btw, I just >wanted to see how badly I could mess things up. In particular due to the >way I did things, file dates don't get set on a create, either, so all my >files are dated 1969. The "ideal" solution might set the date correctly on >a create, but not touch it on a modify or a read). You don't gain much by not changing the mtime/ctime. They usually change together with the file size and the file size must be written. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 01:46:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19212 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA19203 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 01:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA07784; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:34:38 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605290904.SAA07784@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: three stage boot again To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:34:37 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605271809.OAA03085@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from "Bill Paul" at May 27, 96 02:09:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Paul stands accused of saying: > > > I think you're on the money here; the third stage shouldn't care how it > > got into memory, it should be able to derive _everything_ by examining the > > environment that it finds itself in on startup. > > Well, it turns out that it can read the disklabel by itself. The problem > I had was that I initially just declared a struct disklabel as a buffer, > but that didn't work. Later I just left space in start.S for the disklabel > buffer, just like the original start.S does, and that worked fine. Without initialising it, it probably ended up in the BSS. No idea where you put that 8) > > (I know this means two bootp requests if it's come in from a netboot > > environment, but that shouldn't hurt). > > Unfortunately, I'm not making much headway with integrating netboot. I don't think you _want_ to integrate it, per se. You should at some level have a set of functions that are the interface to the reading/finding of files, and bolt one or more bottom ends under that. The current netboot would load a network-aware third stage, which would use bootp/tftp/nfs as required in place of the BIOS disk calls that the disk-aware version would. Perhaps it would be possible to integrate the two functions together, but it's not something you'd do straight away. > Another problem, which could be tough to overcome, is that the biosboot > program's bss section is actually quite large. This is because it delcares > a lot of large buffers for disk I/O. One of them is a read-ahead buffer > which takes up 9K, then there are several 8K buffers for some of the > ufs support code. The first image that I linked with the netboot > code included had text, data and bss sections that added up to over 70K. > This easily exceeds the 64K limit. If you're running in protected mode and just thunking back to real mode to talk to the BIOS this shouldn't be an issue. I'll have to leave it to Bruce to confirm/deny that though. > Curiously, even when I got rid of the read ahead buffer and its associated > code, which brought the total just under 64K, it still didn't work. It Hmm. Removing the buffer didn't screw some implicit offset somewhere else? (I'm not familiar with the code, and not enough of a guru to keep up with you there...) > Of course, I also tried to link netboot as a standalone program all > by itself, and that blew up too. I found netboot to be _very_ touchy in general, although once I got a .com version working for our systems here I stopped thinking about it. > *sigh* What I wouldn't give for a 386 simulator with memory and register > dump capabilities. :) Heh. You've got one - it's called a spare PC 8( > -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 02:11:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA20715 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 02:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20709 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 02:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA01059; Wed, 29 May 1996 02:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605290911.CAA01059@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Joe Greco cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 May 1996 23:04:11 CDT." <199605290404.XAA25324@solaria.sol.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 02:11:06 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Intended goal: on a busy news server with a hundred articles per second >going out the door, I felt that it might not be reasonable to try to write >the st_atime changes back out to the disk. Basically, no one gives a rip, >and that's a lotta writes that I don't have time or disk bandwidth to do. ... >Am I just totally whacked out, or is this perhaps a reasonable thing to do, >given that I'd really rather not have to absorb the extra write activity on >the filesystems... does anybody else perceive any value along these lines >of thought? You're not totally whacked out. I attempted to implement the same thing here, but got stuck with the flag still getting set somewhere/sometimes and had to drop that work for more important things. >(I don't pretend to think my patches are complete or correct, btw, I just >wanted to see how badly I could mess things up. In particular due to the >way I did things, file dates don't get set on a create, either, so all my >files are dated 1969. The "ideal" solution might set the date correctly on >a create, but not touch it on a modify or a read). I added an option "noatime" to mount/fstab and implemented a special per-mount flag for this in the kernel. I was only interested in disabling the access time; I wanted the inode change time and modify times to still work correctly. My application, of course, was wcarchive - a machine with millions of files that spends about 1/3-1/2 of all of it's disk I/O just updating the access times in the inodes. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 03:37:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA24835 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 03:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA24830 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 03:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with ESMTP id DAA12048 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 03:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id DAA01154 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 03:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605291033.DAA01154@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: stange behavior with amd From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 03:33:22 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm having an impossible time fixing amd on a Walnut Creek machine. It broke last week for unknown reasons and for the life of me, I can't figure out why. The symptom is that the auto-mount just hangs. I can manually NFS mount the remote system just fine and the amd configuration is identical to what we're using on other WC machines (including freefall) - and they work fine. I rebuilt the kernel (2.1-stable) and amd, but this made no difference. I've checked everything I can think of - everything related to DNS, permissions on various directories, etc., everything looks fine. amd is being started with: amd -a /net -c 1800 -k i386 -d cdrom.com -l syslog /host /etc/amd.map The amd.map file contains: /defaults type:=host;fs:=${autodir}/${rhost};rhost:=${key} * opts:=rw,grpid Has anyone here seen this type of behavior before and perhaps have a solution? I've spent many hours on this and I'm getting really sick of it. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 03:56:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA25584 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 03:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA25578 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 03:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from coredump@localhost) by onyx.nervosa.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA00248; Wed, 29 May 1996 03:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 03:56:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris J. Layne" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: volume control Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know how to adjust the volume of a sound card through FreeBSD, e.g. Pas16? == Chris Layne ======================================== Nervosa Computing == == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 04:14:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA27312 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbs.galactica.it (bbs.galactica.it [151.99.164.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA27289 for < hackers@freebsd.com>; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:14:50 -0700 (PDT) From: davide@galactica.it Message-Id: <199605291114.EAA27289@freefall.freebsd.org> To: hackers@freebsd.com Date: 29 May 1996 13:09:44 GMT Subject: Size limit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Is it possible to limit the disk size usable by an user ? Thanks for reply Ciao Davide From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 04:15:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA27341 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA27336; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id EAA12126; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOjDK-000Qc2C; Wed, 29 May 96 13:14 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA20309; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:08:29 +0200 Message-Id: <199605291108.NAA20309@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.org (Gary Palmer) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:08:29 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, scrappy@ki.net In-Reply-To: <13116.833311188@palmer.demon.co.uk> from "Gary Palmer" at May 28, 96 08:19:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > > Well, I certainly do at the minute. > > Take the following innocuous piece of code: > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) > pdu->version = session->version; > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ > fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); > snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; > return 0; >} > > (etc). Well, it looks like what you hate is a broken compiler. That's not optimizing, that's just broken. How come you didn't use gdb to follow up the problem? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 04:20:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA27678 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA27672 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from coredump@localhost) by onyx.nervosa.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA00397; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 04:17:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris J. Layne" To: Julian Assange cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-Reply-To: <199605290000.KAA30537@suburbia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996, Julian Assange wrote: > > At one time I suggested running a "beautifier" on code as part of the > > CVS commit process. I still like the idea. I would be against this sort of thing. Am the only one here who doesn't like their code being hammered into someone else's style? == Chris Layne ======================================== Nervosa Computing == == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 04:42:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA28635 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anacreon.sol.net (anacreon.sol.net [206.55.64.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA28630 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solaria.sol.net (solaria.sol.net [206.55.65.75]) by anacreon.sol.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA08543; Wed, 29 May 1996 06:41:59 -0500 Received: from localhost by solaria.sol.net (8.5/8.5) id GAA29506; Wed, 29 May 1996 06:43:50 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199605291143.GAA29506@solaria.sol.net> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 6:43:49 CDT Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605290829.SAA27406@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at May 29, 96 06:29:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL65] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I added a flag to mount to tell FFS not to worry about the datestamps on > >inodes. > > >Intended goal: on a busy news server with a hundred articles per second > >going out the door, I felt that it might not be reasonable to try to write > >the st_atime changes back out to the disk. Basically, no one gives a rip, > >and that's a lotta writes that I don't have time or disk bandwidth to do. > > Things like checking for mail actually depend on it. Nobody's storing mail on the news spool disks of my news servers. (As a per-mount flag, it is easy to be selective). > Changes to atimes are written to the disk asynchronously, except for > utimes(2), so the bandwidth loss is not huge. I see that it's written asynchronously. I knew that even before inspecting the code. That's why my poor reader machines go totally freaking out of their minds for a few seconds every half minute or so.. (disk lights go solid on) > News file systems probably > lose more than most by thrashing the inode cache (another problem) so that > async inode writes are almost sync. And perhaps something in your news > software uses utimes() a lot? Once per (small) file creation is a lot. > You get one or two sync updates for the creat/write/close and one sync > update for utimes() - about 100% or 50% overhead. I don't know of anything here that uses utimes()... pretty pointless within software that really doesn't care ;-) Any ideas on how to help the thrashing problem? > I think atimes should be cached (or permanently allocated) independently > of their inodes. It would be reasonable to cache a few hundred thousand > of them in memory. You might need to ;-) > >Am I just totally whacked out, or is this perhaps a reasonable thing to do, > > Only for special file systems. > > >(I don't pretend to think my patches are complete or correct, btw, I just > >wanted to see how badly I could mess things up. In particular due to the > >way I did things, file dates don't get set on a create, either, so all my > >files are dated 1969. The "ideal" solution might set the date correctly on > >a create, but not touch it on a modify or a read). > > You don't gain much by not changing the mtime/ctime. They usually change > together with the file size and the file size must be written. Oooo that's a good point, I was thinking of not doing st_mtime's for NOV data. However, everywhere else in news is pretty much write once read many. I am not concerned tooooo much about the write once. It is the read many that kills. A million (actually probably twice that these days) articles on line, three hundred nnrpd clients, over a hundred articles per second requested, ummmmmmm... plus five articles per second being written to the spool.. we now have lots of moderately random data being needlessly written back to disk when the reality is that the IO system is already saturated. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 04:42:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA28686 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA28638; Wed, 29 May 1996 04:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA00638; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:23:03 +1000 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 21:23:03 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605291123.VAA00638@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, scotto@remuda.com Subject: Re: SOLVED-->Re: sendmail read errors/timeouts etc. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >the short answer is that i was running with an mtu of 296 via my 28.8 >connection. >... >the troublesome sites apparently blocked tcp frags improperly (i know very >little about implementing firewalls). i verified that with the nintendo >folks. i can only guess about microsoft and msn. regardless, my problem >is gone. Some microsoft networks are reported to respond incorrectly to mtu discovery packets. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 05:01:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA29623 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA29617 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19700; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:00:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 08:00:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: David Greenman cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: stange behavior with amd In-Reply-To: <199605291033.DAA01154@Root.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk similar to problems i have seen here. hangs and/or fails. What i see via snoop is that amd sends out the NFS NULL call and the reply just gets dropped. Then amd tries again, and again, and again ... I have not had time to fix it. Seems like it is probably a bug in amd, though, ... arg. ron Ron Minnich |"Inferno runs on MIPS ..., Intel ..., and AMD's rminnich@sarnoff.com |29-kilobit-per-second chip-based architectures ..." (609)-734-3120 | Comm. week, may 13, pg. 4. ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 05:13:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA29912 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itesec.hsc.fr (root@itesec.hsc.fr [192.70.106.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA29907 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 05:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tetard.hsc.fr (tetard.hsc.fr [192.70.106.43]) by itesec.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/itesec-1.8) with ESMTP id OAA07867; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:12:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by tetard.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/tetard-uucp-2.8) id OAA10645; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:12:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: Philippe Regnauld Message-Id: <199605291212.OAA10645@tetard.hsc.fr> Subject: Re: volume control To: coredump@nervosa.com (Chris J. Layne) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:12:27 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (hackers) In-Reply-To: from "Chris J. Layne" at "May 29, 96 03:56:29 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chris J. Layne écrit / writes: > Does anyone know how to adjust the volume of a sound card through > FreeBSD, e.g. Pas16? /usr/sbin/mixer ? -- Phil -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Philippe Regnauld |_______Herve Schauer Consultants_______| regnauld@hsc.fr | +-------------------+FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations+-----------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 06:36:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA04581 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 06:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA04576 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 06:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA29854; Wed, 29 May 96 15:39:01 +0100 Date: Wed, 29 May 96 15:39:01 +0100 Message-Id: <9605291439.AA29854@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605220616.XAA07591@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> (kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Subject: Re: Potential f77 bugs X-Mailer: Emacs Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> Steven G Kargl writes: > Hackers, > I've been looking at the current implementation of the f77 wrapper > utility for the f2c+gcc combo, and I've discovered some potential bugs > with the way options are handled. (Actually, J Wunsch pointed out the > inconsistencies.) According to the source (see gcc.c), the -onetrip > f2c option should be honored. Thus, > %f77 -onetrip file.f > should cause DO loops to be executed at least once. However, you end > up with an a.out file named netrip. Other problems involve the -kr and > -krd f2c options. > %gcc -kr file.c > %gcc -krd file.c > work without reporting that the -k[] option is not valid for a C file > compilation. The language specification for Fortran within gcc.c is quite > bogus. > Thus, I have written a new f77 wrapper utility that handles the f2c and > gcc options. Additionally, I have written a short man page describing the > new f77 utility. It should be noted that my f77 command does not currently > support all f2c and gcc options (many don't make sense to use). > If there is interest, I will submit a GNAT report with an 8k+ uuencode, > gzipped tar file. In fact it seems that none of the f2c flags are processed by f77, and that they are simply passed to gcc. (I also encountered this problem when I wanted to use the -ext option). I am interested in a wrapper able to parse all the f2c options! Jean-Marc > -- > Steve > Permission is hereby granted to forward this message in its entirety to > whomever you like unless I explicitly state that the content is confidential. -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 07:48:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09140 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rk.ios.com (rk.ios.com [198.4.75.55]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09117 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rashid@localhost) by rk.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA23185; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:46:48 -0400 From: Rashid Karimov Message-Id: <199605291446.KAA23185@rk.ios.com> Subject: Re: Size limit To: davide@galactica.it Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.com In-Reply-To: <199605291114.EAA27289@freefall.freebsd.org> from "davide@galactica.it" at May 29, 96 01:09:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Hi, > Is it possible to limit the disk size usable by an user ? Yep , there is such thing as QUOTA mechanism . Try man "edquota" and/or "quota". It wasn't very robust in 2.1Release and some SNAPs after, and it is a headache to run on any serious server machines with few thous of accounts. Looks like this is not in top priorities list. The way quotas done now puts them inside of given FS type versus being independent level in virtual FS. Noone is willing to mess with current code :( > > Thanks for reply > Ciao > Davide > Rashid From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 07:50:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09290 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.phys.msu.su (ns.phys.msu.su [193.232.127.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA09256; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns.phys.msu.su (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA08191; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:49:39 +0400 (W-SU) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:49:39 +0400 (W-SU) From: Alicher Alikhodjaev To: Satoshi Asami cc: stable@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, ccd@forgery.cs.berkeley.edu Subject: CCD driver bug ? In-Reply-To: <199601311134.DAA07361@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yesterday, I've tried to use ccd pseudo-device in FreeBSD-stable, and have got a strange result: ccdconfig -Cv ccd0: 2 components (sd0f, sd1e), 6995456 blocks interleaved at 512 blocks disklabel /dev/ccd0c # /dev/ccd0c: type: CCD disk: ccd ... - Ok! newfs -f 512 -b 4096 -m 1 /dev/ccd0c ... - Ok! but: fsck /dev/ccd0c Can't open /dev/rccd0c: Device not configured disklabel ccd0 disklabel: /dev/rccd0c: Device not configured _____ options "CCD_OFFSET=0" - does not help. To make device entries I used patch to MAKEDEV from ccd-960131. A.E. I can use ccd, but can't do fsck. The main problem is system restart: it seems impossible to put ccd entry in /etc/fstab. When I used ccd-960131.tar.gz with 2.1R it worked OK, but now ... Could anyone help me, please. Regards Cher. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.phys.msu.su/team/cher.html ! Physics Department Phone: +7 (095) 939-1114 ! Moscow State University Fax: +7 (095) 932-8822 ! Russia From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 07:53:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09530 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (root@zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA09510 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.2) with ESMTP id QAA11312; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:53:09 +0200 From: Tomas Klockar Received: (dateck@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id QAA18888; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:52:41 +0200 Message-Id: <199605291452.QAA18888@father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: Re: Size limit To: davide@galactica.it Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 16:52:41 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.com In-Reply-To: <199605291114.EAA27289@freefall.freebsd.org> from "davide@galactica.it" at "May 29, 96 01:09:44 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to davide@galactica.it: > Hi, > Is it possible to limit the disk size usable by an user ? > > Thanks for reply > Ciao > Davide > > I guess quota, but I don't know if its ported. /Tomas -- Tomas Klockar can be found at the following adresses: Kårhusvägen 4, 2:43 | Furuvägen 102 | dateck@ludd.luth.se 977 54 Luleå | 871 52 Härnösand | dateck@solace.mh.se Tel: +46-920-229391 | Tel: +46-611-13393 | d94-tkl@sm.luth.se From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 07:57:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09816 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA09809 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 07:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA03168; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:56:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 09:56:52 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Joe Diehl cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Motif and FreeBSD/Xfree86 In-Reply-To: <199605290643.BAA08683@kali.me.ksu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996, Joe Diehl wrote: > Question is simply, has anyone tried to compile Motif before, 1.2, no. 2.0, yes. > or know of > any pointers to help me compile this properly? Aside from a few bogons in the demos (e.g, a variable named `inline') there are no code changes necessary (although I have not run through the entire validation suite yet...) However, the Motif Imakefiles and X11R6 imake are not happy campers. I mucked through the hard way to get everything working, but recently found some good documentation at: http://www.primate.wisc.edu/software/imake-stuff/motif-notes.html -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 08:15:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10604 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA10599 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA26186; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:15:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Wed, 29 May 96 10:15 CDT Received: by mars.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Wed, 29 May 96 10:14 CDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Potential f77 bugs To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr (Jean-Marc Zucconi) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:14:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "Lars Jonas Olsson" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jonas@mcs.net In-Reply-To: <9605291439.AA29854@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> from "Jean-Marc Zucconi" at May 29, 96 03:39:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >>>>> Steven G Kargl writes: > > > Hackers, > > I've been looking at the current implementation of the f77 wrapper > > utility for the f2c+gcc combo, and I've discovered some potential bugs > > with the way options are handled. (Actually, J Wunsch pointed out the > > inconsistencies.) According to the source (see gcc.c), the -onetrip > > f2c option should be honored. Thus, > > > %f77 -onetrip file.f > > > should cause DO loops to be executed at least once. However, you end > > up with an a.out file named netrip. Other problems involve the -kr and > > -krd f2c options. > > > %gcc -kr file.c > > %gcc -krd file.c > > > work without reporting that the -k[] option is not valid for a C file > > compilation. The language specification for Fortran within gcc.c is quite > > bogus. > > > Thus, I have written a new f77 wrapper utility that handles the f2c and > > gcc options. Additionally, I have written a short man page describing the > > new f77 utility. It should be noted that my f77 command does not currently > > support all f2c and gcc options (many don't make sense to use). > > > If there is interest, I will submit a GNAT report with an 8k+ uuencode, > > gzipped tar file. > > In fact it seems that none of the f2c flags are processed by f77, and > that they are simply passed to gcc. (I also encountered this problem > when I wanted to use the -ext option). > > I am interested in a wrapper able to parse all the f2c options! > > Jean-Marc Some f2c flags are processed. The rule is: (From usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc/cc/gcc.c) /***** ljo's Fortran rule *****/ {".f", "@f2c"}, {"@f2c", "f2c %{checksubscripts:-C} %{I2} %{onetrip} %{honorcase:-U} %{u} %{w}\ %{ANSIC:-A} %{a} %{C++}\ %{c} %{E} %{ec} %{ext} %{f} %{72} %{g} %{h} %{i2} %{kr}\ %{P} %{p} %{r} %{r8} %{s} %{w8} %{z} %{N*}\ %i %{!pipe: -o %g.c} %{pipe:-o -}|\n", "cpp -lang-c %{nostdinc*} %{C} %{v} %{A*} %{I*} %{P} %I\ %{C:%{!E:%eGNU C does not support -C without using -E}}\ %{M} %{MM} %{MD:-MD %b.d} %{MMD:-MMD %b.d} %{MG}\ -undef -D__GNUC__=%v1 -D__GNUC_MINOR__=%v2\ %{ansi:-trigraphs -$ -D__STRICT_ANSI__}\ %{!undef:%{!ansi:%p} %P} %{trigraphs} \ %c %{O*:%{!O0:-D__OPTIMIZE__}} %{traditional} %{ftraditional:-traditional}\ %{traditional-cpp:-traditional}\ %{g*} %{W*} %{w} %{pedantic*} %{H} %{d*} %C %{D*} %{U*} %{i*}\ %{pipe:-} %{!pipe:%g.c} %{!M:%{!MM:%{!E:%{!pipe:%g.i}}}}%{E:%W{o*}}%{M:%W{o*}}%{MM:%W{o*}} |\n", "%{!M:%{!MM:%{!E:cc1 %{!pipe:%g.i} %1 \ %{!Q:-quiet} -dumpbase %b.c %{d*} %{m*} %{a}\ %{g*} %{O*} %{W*} %{w} %{pedantic*} %{ansi} \ %{traditional} %{v:-version} %{pg:-p} %{p} %{f*}\ %{aux-info*}\ %{pg:%{fomit-frame-pointer:%e-pg and -fomit-frame-pointer are incompatible}}\ %{S:%W{o*}%{!o*:-o %b.s}}%{!S:-o %{|!pipe:%g.s}} |\n\ %{!S:as %{R} %{j} %{J} %{h} %{d2} %a %Y\ %{c:%W{o*}%{!o*:-o %w%b.o}}%{!c:-o %d%w%u.o}\ %{!pipe:%g.s} %A\n }}}}"}, /***** End of ljo's Fortran rule *****/ This means that we forward to f2c the arguments: -checksubscripts (renamed to -C before being sent to f2c) -I2 -onetrip (This one is erronuous as it conflicts with gcc's -o) -honorcase (renamed to -U) -u -w -ANSIC (renamed to -A) -a -C++ etc. When I wrote this rule I renamed some arguments, but didn't study all arguments in detail. I think that we probably do not need all possible f2c options and the ones we need could be renamed to not conflict with the other compiler stages. The options that we rename should probably be named similarly to g77's options. Or perhaps rename all conflicting options with a f2c_ prefix. Another option is to remove some conflciting options sent to cpp, cc1, and as. If we can get a consensus on what options a Fortran compiler needs I think the current solution is quite flexible and solves the f2c integration quite well. Before this solution we had various f77 shell scripts that never quite handled debugging, profiling, output renaming, etc. Jonas From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 08:43:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA11961 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA11940 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA07698; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605291542.IAA07698@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Chris J. Layne" Cc: Julian Assange , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 08:42:02 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996 04:17:32 -0700 (PDT) "Chris J. Layne" wrote: > I would be against this sort of thing. Am the only one here who doesn't > like their code being hammered into someone else's style? If companies have coding style standards, why shouldn't a free OS project have the same? NetBSD, from time to time, makes KNF'ing runs through the kernel. It's a Good Thing, in the long run, to have the code look consistent. /usr/share/misc/style is your friend. ----save the ancient forests - http://www.bayarea.net/~thorpej/forest/---- Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 08:54:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12646 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cabri.obs-besancon.fr (cabri.obs-besancon.fr [193.52.184.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA12640 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 08:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cabri.obs-besancon.fr (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA01122; Wed, 29 May 96 17:57:10 +0100 Date: Wed, 29 May 96 17:57:10 +0100 Message-Id: <9605291657.AA01122@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: jonas@mcs.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jonas@mcs.net In-Reply-To: (jonas@mcs.com) Subject: Re: Potential f77 bugs X-Mailer: Emacs Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> Lars Jonas Olsson writes: > Some f2c flags are processed. The rule is: > (From usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc/cc/gcc.c) > /***** ljo's Fortran rule *****/ > {".f", "@f2c"}, > {"@f2c", > "f2c %{checksubscripts:-C} %{I2} %{onetrip} %{honorcase:-U} %{u} %{w}\ > %{ANSIC:-A} %{a} %{C++}\ > %{c} %{E} %{ec} %{ext} %{f} %{72} %{g} %{h} %{i2} %{kr}\ > %{P} %{p} %{r} %{r8} %{s} %{w8} %{z} %{N*}\ > %i %{!pipe: -o %g.c} %{pipe:-o -}|\n", > "cpp -lang-c %{nostdinc*} %{C} %{v} %{A*} %{I*} %{P} %I\ > %{C:%{!E:%eGNU C does not support -C without using -E}}\ > %{M} %{MM} %{MD:-MD %b.d} %{MMD:-MMD %b.d} %{MG}\ > -undef -D__GNUC__=%v1 -D__GNUC_MINOR__=%v2\ > %{ansi:-trigraphs -$ -D__STRICT_ANSI__}\ > %{!undef:%{!ansi:%p} %P} %{trigraphs} \ > %c %{O*:%{!O0:-D__OPTIMIZE__}} %{traditional} %{ftraditional:-traditional}\ > %{traditional-cpp:-traditional}\ > %{g*} %{W*} %{w} %{pedantic*} %{H} %{d*} %C %{D*} %{U*} %{i*}\ > %{pipe:-} %{!pipe:%g.c} %{!M:%{!MM:%{!E:%{!pipe:%g.i}}}}%{E:%W{o*}}%{M:%W{o*}}%{MM:%W{o*}} |\n", > "%{!M:%{!MM:%{!E:cc1 %{!pipe:%g.i} %1 \ > %{!Q:-quiet} -dumpbase %b.c %{d*} %{m*} %{a}\ > %{g*} %{O*} %{W*} %{w} %{pedantic*} %{ansi} \ > %{traditional} %{v:-version} %{pg:-p} %{p} %{f*}\ > %{aux-info*}\ > %{pg:%{fomit-frame-pointer:%e-pg and -fomit-frame-pointer are incompatible}}\ > %{S:%W{o*}%{!o*:-o %b.s}}%{!S:-o %{|!pipe:%g.s}} |\n\ > %{!S:as %{R} %{j} %{J} %{h} %{d2} %a %Y\ > %{c:%W{o*}%{!o*:-o %w%b.o}}%{!c:-o %d%w%u.o}\ > %{!pipe:%g.s} %A\n }}}}"}, > /***** End of ljo's Fortran rule *****/ > This means that we forward to f2c the arguments: > -checksubscripts (renamed to -C before being sent to f2c) > -I2 > -onetrip (This one is erronuous as it conflicts with gcc's -o) > -honorcase (renamed to -U) > -u > -w > -ANSIC (renamed to -A) > -a > -C++ > etc. But there is still a bug: try -E, -ext, -ec, -u. They generate errors, because it seems that they are also passed to cpp, cc1, etc. For instance 'f77 -ext -c foo.f' works but 'f77 -ext foo.f' fails (rejected by ld) Jean-Marc -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Marc Zucconi Observatoire de Besancon F 25010 Besancon cedex PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 09:10:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13839 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA13829 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id MAA07406; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:10:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Joe Diehl cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Motif and FreeBSD/Xfree86 In-Reply-To: <199605290643.BAA08683@kali.me.ksu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996, Joe Diehl wrote: > Question is simply, has anyone tried to compile Motif before, or know of > any pointers to help me compile this properly? > > I am aware of the various precompiled Motif alternatives, but as a > college student I must look for any cheap (aka free) alternative I > can find. 8-) > Have you looked into lesstif? I've compiled it here, but have yet to compile anything *with* it, so don't know if or how well it works under FreeBSD... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 09:13:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14258 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14248; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id MAA07446; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:13:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Greg Lehey cc: Gary Palmer , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS In-Reply-To: <199605291108.NAA20309@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Gary Palmer writes: > > > > Well, I certainly do at the minute. > > > > Take the following innocuous piece of code: > > > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) > > pdu->version = session->version; > > > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ > > fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); > > snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; > > return 0; > >} > > > > (etc). > > Well, it looks like what you hate is a broken compiler. That's not > optimizing, that's just broken. > > How come you didn't use gdb to follow up the problem? > How do you follow up a problem like this with gdb? I hadn't even thought about an optimizing problem when I started to try to debug this with gdb, but I couldn't find a thing that seemed to indicate whree the problem lay ... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 09:23:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA15526 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA15514 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id SAA10739; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:00:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA05313; Wed, 29 May 1996 17:50:25 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:50:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: davide@galactica.it cc: hackers@freebsd.com Subject: Re: Size limit In-Reply-To: <199605291114.EAA27289@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On 29 May 1996 davide@galactica.it wrote: > Hi, > Is it possible to limit the disk size usable by an user ? You have to add user quotas ... This feature must be enabled in the kernel and then RTFM. Gruss Andreas /// - -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMaxyQPMLpmkD/U+FAQHGeAP/f7+QQelL7PRkQrAuAxZISkV0h0nvfjwR IZaQL23mMc5eLJr6dsy5TF6OxSfbiUHygO8X4jImrK/aHRkvRRmS3AbHBghVyiMY AM58u8WyYwEEkcgN3xvsq1qbMtU9JG3nXD1vHur0pByw/zs46IkK3l25qqZ14nbt 22AeLPlJiI8= =LD63 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 09:59:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18465 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA18460 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA05437; Wed, 29 May 1996 09:56:31 -0700 (PDT) To: Jason Thorpe cc: "Chris J. Layne" , Julian Assange , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 08:42:02 PDT." <199605291542.IAA07698@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 09:56:31 -0700 Message-ID: <5435.833388991@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If companies have coding style standards, why shouldn't a free OS project > have the same? NetBSD, from time to time, makes KNF'ing runs through the Because we already have 200% more work to do than our volunteers can deal with and having endless discussions and/or wars about someone reformatting someone else's code is NOT the most productive use of everyone's time. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 10:08:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA19183 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA19174 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00216; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:07:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven G. Kargl" Message-Id: <199605291707.KAA00216@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Potential f77 bugs To: jonas@mcs.com (Lars Jonas Olsson) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr, hackers@freebsd.org, jonas@mcs.net In-Reply-To: from "Lars Jonas Olsson" at May 29, 96 10:14:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Lars Jonas Olsson: > > According to Jean-Marc >> >> In fact it seems that none of the f2c flags are processed by f77, and >> that they are simply passed to gcc. (I also encountered this problem >> when I wanted to use the -ext option). >> >> I am interested in a wrapper able to parse all the f2c options! >> >> Jean-Marc > >Some f2c flags are processed. The rule is: >(From usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc/cc/gcc.c) > >/***** ljo's Fortran rule *****/ > {".f", "@f2c"}, [rule deleted for brevity] >/***** End of ljo's Fortran rule *****/ > >This means that we forward to f2c the arguments: >-checksubscripts (renamed to -C before being sent to f2c) >-I2 >-onetrip (This one is erronuous as it conflicts with gcc's -o) >-honorcase (renamed to -U) >-u >-w >-ANSIC (renamed to -A) >-a >-C++ > Write a man page!!!!! There is NO DOCUMENTATION on how to use the flags YOU renamed. >etc. > > When I wrote this rule I renamed some arguments, but didn't study all >arguments in detail. I think that we probably do not need all possible >f2c options and the ones we need could be renamed to not conflict with >the other compiler stages. The options that we rename should probably >be named similarly to g77's options. Or perhaps rename all conflicting >options with a f2c_ prefix. Another option is to remove some conflciting >options sent to cpp, cc1, and as. The current f77 does not handle preprocessing of source with .F suffixes. The common practice on many (most) UNIX(-like) OS's is to preprocess .F files. Thus, f77 file.f translates to the sequence f2c-->cpp-->cc1-->as-->ld. f77 file.F translates to the sequence cpp-->f2c-->cpp-->cc1-->as-->ld. >If we can get a consensus on what options a Fortran compiler needs >I think the current solution is quite flexible and solves the f2c >integration quite well. Before this solution we had various f77 >shell scripts that never quite handled debugging, profiling, output >renaming, etc. > Two other reasons exists for removing the current f77 and f2c integration into gcc. (1) The wrapper I'm writing is not GPL'd. Thus, we can remove some (partially malfunctioning) GPL encumbered code from the source tree. (2) The f2c integration into gcc may hamper the upgrading to a higher version of gcc. It may also limit the ability to test g77 with FreeBSD. Note: g77 was designed to co-exist with gcc. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 10:40:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA20747 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA20724 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0uOpDz-00042AC; Wed, 29 May 96 10:39 PDT Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA11172; Wed, 29 May 1996 17:39:53 GMT To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Jason Thorpe , "Chris J. Layne" , Julian Assange , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Indentation styles In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 09:56:31 MST." <5435.833388991@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:39:53 +0000 Message-ID: <11170.833391593@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If companies have coding style standards, why shouldn't a free OS project > > have the same? NetBSD, from time to time, makes KNF'ing runs through the > > Because we already have 200% more work to do than our volunteers can > deal with and having endless discussions and/or wars about someone > reformatting someone else's code is NOT the most productive use of > everyone's time. :-) > > Jordan Uhm Jordan, you didn't format that email according to the guidelines that core agreed on for official emails... :-) Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 10:52:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21262 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rk.ios.com (rk.ios.com [198.4.75.55]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21257 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 10:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rashid@localhost) by rk.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA23605; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:50:04 -0400 From: Rashid Karimov Message-Id: <199605291750.NAA23605@rk.ios.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: jgreco@solaria.sol.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605290911.CAA01059@Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at May 29, 96 02:11:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there folx, > > >Intended goal: on a busy news server with a hundred articles per second > >going out the door, I felt that it might not be reasonable to try to write > >the st_atime changes back out to the disk. Basically, no one gives a rip, > >and that's a lotta writes that I don't have time or disk bandwidth to do. > ... > >Am I just totally whacked out, or is this perhaps a reasonable thing to do, > >given that I'd really rather not have to absorb the extra write activity on > >the filesystems... does anybody else perceive any value along these lines > >of thought? > > > I added an option "noatime" to mount/fstab and implemented a special > per-mount flag for this in the kernel. I was only interested in disabling > the access time; I wanted the inode change time and modify times to still > work correctly. My application, of course, was wcarchive - a machine with > millions of files that spends about 1/3-1/2 of all of it's disk I/O just > updating the access times in the inodes. > > -DG > > David Greenman David, could you submit those patches ? May be we can even add this as an OPTION to the kernel config file? Rashid From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 11:02:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21952 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sierra.zyzzyva.com (ppp0.zyzzyva.com [198.183.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21947 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zyzzyva.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sierra.zyzzyva.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA13588 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:01:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199605291801.NAA13588@sierra.zyzzyva.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 8 character login limit X-uri: http://www.zyzzyva.com/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:01:33 -0500 From: Randy Terbush Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can anyone shed some light on the reasons for this limit? After a quick look, it would appear that the only thing that trips on this limit is 'login'. I have not checked the getpw*() functions. Is it out of the question to remove this restriction? Comments? From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 11:10:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22346 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22300 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id SAA01405; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:55:37 +0100 (BST) To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, scrappy@ki.net From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 13:08:29 +0200." <199605291108.NAA20309@allegro.lemis.de> Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:55:36 +0100 Message-ID: <1403.833392536@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote in message ID <199605291108.NAA20309@allegro.lemis.de>: > Well, it looks like what you hate is a broken compiler. That's not > optimizing, that's just broken. Well, it was the -O which was the culprit, which (to me at least) points to a problem in the optimisation code. > How come you didn't use gdb to follow up the problem? Would gdb have been able to track this down? I'm not so sure. That, and I have never liked gdb. I used gdb to track the execution path and then dove into the sources to see what was going on. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 11:28:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23410 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23355 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOox7-000QZvC; Wed, 29 May 96 19:22 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA24396; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:52:09 +0200 Message-Id: <199605291652.SAA24396@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS To: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:52:09 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at May 29, 96 12:13:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marc G. Fournier writes: > > On Wed, 29 May 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Gary Palmer writes: >>> >>> Well, I certainly do at the minute. >>> >>> Take the following innocuous piece of code: >>> >>> if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) >>> pdu->version = session->version; >>> >>> if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ >>> fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); >>> snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; >>> return 0; >>>} >>> >>> (etc). >> >> Well, it looks like what you hate is a broken compiler. That's not >> optimizing, that's just broken. >> >> How come you didn't use gdb to follow up the problem? >> > How do you follow up a problem like this with gdb? I hadn't > even thought about an optimizing problem when I started to try to > debug this with gdb, but I couldn't find a thing that seemed to > indicate whree the problem lay ... Basically you use the debugger's commands to do your printfs for you. You can single step through the code (that's what I'd do when it's boiled down to such a small fragement), or you can set breakpoints. You can issue explicit print commands, or you can use the display command to show it to you every time you stop. Let's look at Gary's original message. To make it easier to visualize, I packed this in a minimal shell: > #include > #define SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION -1 > #define SNMP_FOO_VERSION 2 > #define SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS 0xdeadbeef > > struct _pdu > { > int version; > char foo; >} > pdu; > struct _pdu session; > > int snmp_errno; > > foo (struct _pdu *pdu, struct _pdu *session) > { > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) > pdu->version = session->version; > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) > { > fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); > snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; > return 0; >} >} > > main () > { > pdu.version = SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION; > session.version = SNMP_FOO_VERSION; > foo (&pdu, &session); >} Back to Gary's message: > So I go and stick in a nice printf just above the first if statement > to check that it's not doing something funny. The code now becomes: > > printf("pdu->version = %d\nsession->version = %d\nSNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION = %d\n", > pdu->version, session->version, SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION); > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) > pdu->version = session->version; > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ > fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); > snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; > return 0; >} > > Which produces: > > pdu->version = -1 > session->version = 2 > SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION = -1 > No version specified OK, here you'd set a breakpoint on the first line of the original example (the first 'if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION)'): + === grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) ~ 16 -> gdb junk + GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it + under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. + There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. + GDB 4.13 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1994 Free Software Foundation, Inc... + (gdb) b foo + Breakpoint 1 at 0x159b: file junk.c, line 18. + (gdb) r + Starting program: /usr/home/grog/junk + During symbol reading...unknown symbol type 0x1e... + + Breakpoint 1, foo (pdu=0x21e4, session=0x21d8) at junk.c:18 + 18 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) + (gdb) r + Starting program: /usr/home/grog/junk + During symbol reading...unknown symbol type 0x1e... + + Breakpoint 1, foo (pdu=0x21e4, session=0x21d8) at junk.c:18 + 18 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) + (gdb) p pdu->version + $1 = -1 + (gdb) p SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION + No symbol "SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION" in current context. Lose, lose. You lose preprocessor variables in the preprocessor. To keep them into the debugger, use enums instead. + (gdb) p session->version + $2 = 2 + (gdb) OK, so far we've seen the same stuff as in Gary's first example. I can't make this fail here, so we don't get the same final result. Let's look at the second time: > So, okay, session->version != SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION, but the problem is > the aggregate of those two if statements disagrees. Hmm. Okay. Put in > a second printf: > > printf("pdu->version = %d\nsession->version = %d\nSNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION = %d\n", > pdu->version, session->version, SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION); > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) > pdu->version = session->version; > > printf("pdu->version = %d\nsession->version = %d\nSNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION = %d\n", > pdu->version, session->version, SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION); > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ > fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); > snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; > return 0; >} At this point, you just need to set a second breakpoint. on the second if statement. Since in this example you've finished, we need to start again: + + (gdb) l 16 I wish gdb would do what I say, and not what it thinks I mean... + 11 pdu; + 12 struct _pdu session; + 13 + 14 int snmp_errno; + 15 + 16 foo (struct _pdu *pdu, struct _pdu *session) + 17 { + 18 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) + 19 pdu->version = session->version; + 20 + 21 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) + 22 { + 23 fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); + 24 snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; + 25 return 0; + 26 } + 27 } + (gdb) b 21 + Breakpoint 2 at 0x15ad: file junk.c, line 21. + (gdb) r + Starting program: /usr/home/grog/junk + + Breakpoint 1, foo (pdu=0x21e4, session=0x21d8) at junk.c:18 + 18 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) As before, just for the fun of it + (gdb) p session->version + $1 = 2 + (gdb) p pdu->version + $2 = -1 + (gdb) c + Continuing. + + Breakpoint 2, foo (pdu=0x21e4, session=0x21d8) at junk.c:21 + 21 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) + (gdb) p pdu->version + $3 = 2 At this point, of course, our mileage varies. Here, you would get the result: + (gdb) p pdu->version + $3 = -1 Gary continues: > And all of a sudden IT STARTS WORKING PROPERLY. Take out the two > printfs, a nasty idea forming in my mind. The code now becomes: > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) > pdu->version = session->version; > > session->version = pdu->version; > > if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ > fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); > snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; > return 0; >} > > Which looks kinda daft, but again, the code worked as expected. Take > out the ``session->version = pdu->version;'' statement, and it starts > failing again. Now I'm really suspicious. Go to the Makefile. Change > ``CFLAGS=-O -g -Dfreebsd2'' to be just ``CFLAGS=-Dfreebsd2''. make > clean all. Go and rebuild the client apps that depend on the > library. > > BINGO. Much cheering and celebrating. I go to the fridge and get > another coke. > > Anyone want to help me take GCC out the back kicking and screaming to > face the shooting squad? Admittedly that code isn't the most elegant > way of doing that assignment/test, but GCC should NOT produce such > bogus code from it :-( And here we (or at least I) thought that `-O' > was safe to use :-( I'd do this differently in gdb. Personally, I'd look at the code that was generated. Your code won't look like this, of course, because this code works. But you can see a few things: + Breakpoint 1, foo (pdu=0x21e4, session=0x21d8) at junk.c:18 + 18 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) + (gdb) x/20i $eip + 0x159b : movl 0x8(%ebp),%eax get foo->version + 0x159e : cmpl $0xffffffff,(%eax) compare with -1 (SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION) + 0x15a1 : jne 0x15ad on if not equal + 0x15a3 : movl 0x8(%ebp),%eax get foo->version again (you can tell that this wasn't optimized :-) + 0x15a6 : movl 0xc(%ebp),%edx get the address of session in edx + 0x15a9 : movl (%edx),%ecx get the first 4 bytes of session in ecx + 0x15ab : movl %ecx,(%eax) and store them in the first 4 bytes of pdu + 0x15ad : movl 0x8(%ebp),%eax (2nd if statement) + 0x15b0 : cmpl $0xffffffff,(%eax) + 0x15b3 : jne 0x15d8 + 0x15b5 : pushl $0x1580 + 0x15ba : pushl $0x2180 + 0x15bf : call 0x207c <_DYNAMIC+124> + 0x15c4 : addl $0x8,%esp + 0x15c7 : movl $0xdeadbeef,0x20cc + 0x15d1 : xorl %eax,%eax + 0x15d3 : jmp 0x15d8 Reading assembler is tough, of course, but there are other ways. In any case, you save a lot by doing it this way rather than going and editing and recompiling possibly dozens of times. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 11:41:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24266 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA24261 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13936; Wed, 29 May 1996 11:39:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605291839.LAA13936@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 11:39:06 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605290115.VAA20117@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 28, 96 09:15:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Trace it on a SunOS 4.1.3 *box*. > > Obviously it will say select on a 4.1.3 box. So what? The question > that has led us down this primrose path is whether Solaris has select. Look. The thing is going to push *select* arguments on the stack, and then trap 93. This won't change when you run it under ABI emulation as opposed to running it in it's native environment. Whatever is in the frigging kernel is decoding *select* arguments (not *poll* arguments) off the user stack. That makes it *select*, in my book. > > A statically linked 4.1.3 binary will trap the select(2) stub through > > trap entry 93. > > What evidence do you have that it's even trapping? Everything could be > handled in the library and truss could be telling the truth -- that it's > using poll. We do know how truss works. It traps, and inspects the > processor state to see what triggered the trap. I disassembled it and saw "trap". Pretty damn obvious. The library isn't going to change because it's *statically* (HELLO, *STATICALLY*) linked. > > Poll's merits are on the basis of an improper implementation of select. > > Well, that's the first time *that* has come up. Pray tell, now what's > wrong with select. It blows it's shorts afer FD_SETSIZE fd's in the most recent release, but not in -current. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 12:11:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA26405 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA26398 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA02095; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605291911.MAA02095@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Ron G. Minnich" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: stange behavior with amd In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 08:00:56 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:11:26 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >similar to problems i have seen here. hangs and/or fails. What i see via >snoop is that amd sends out the NFS NULL call and the reply just gets >dropped. Then amd tries again, and again, and again ... That's exactly what I'm seeing here. It _was_ working, however. I don't understand what has change to break it all of a sudden. >I have not had time to fix it. Seems like it is probably a bug in amd, >though, ... arg. Hmmm. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 12:26:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27759 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27754; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA14263; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:26:27 -0700 (PDT) To: phk@freebsd.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Somebody explain this to me again.. :-) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:26:27 -0700 Message-ID: <14261.833397987@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why does the ``libraries'' target in /usr/src/Makefile cleans automatically? Sure, you can set NOCLEANDIR but then that turns off cleaning *everywhere*, not just the places where it's seemingly redundant (like libraries), and not at all what you want. Comments? If you already know you've made good libraries, why build them again in the second `make all' pass? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 12:52:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00523 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00518; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uOqSM-000QYSC; Wed, 29 May 96 20:58 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id UAA24634; Wed, 29 May 1996 20:48:12 +0200 Message-Id: <199605291848.UAA24634@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 20:48:12 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <1403.833392536@palmer.demon.co.uk> from "Gary Palmer" at May 29, 96 06:55:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > > Greg Lehey wrote in message ID > <199605291108.NAA20309@allegro.lemis.de>: >> Well, it looks like what you hate is a broken compiler. That's not >> optimizing, that's just broken. > > Well, it was the -O which was the culprit, which (to me at least) > points to a problem in the optimisation code. Sure. The compiler's broken in the optimizer. But it's broken. It's not the purpose of optimization to change the function of the code. >> How come you didn't use gdb to follow up the problem? > > Would gdb have been able to track this down? I'm not so sure. That, > and I have never liked gdb. I used gdb to track the execution path and > then dove into the sources to see what was going on. I assume you wrote this before you saw my example. I'd be very interested to hear what you say to that. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 12:57:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00852 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00847 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 12:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA17246; Wed, 29 May 96 15:56:34 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id PAA23238; Wed, 29 May 1996 15:56:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199605291956.PAA23238@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 May 1996 11:39:06 EST. <199605291839.LAA13936@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 15:56:32 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Trace it on a SunOS 4.1.3 *box*. > > > > Obviously it will say select on a 4.1.3 box. So what? The question > > that has led us down this primrose path is whether Solaris has select. > > Look. No Terry, you look. Why don't you try this stuff for yourself instead of making wild assed guesses and amazing assertions like "truss is lying." > > The thing is going to push *select* arguments on the stack, and then > trap 93. > > This won't change when you run it under ABI emulation as opposed to > running it in it's native environment. Is this just guessing on your part? > Whatever is in the frigging kernel is decoding *select* arguments > (not *poll* arguments) off the user stack. You haven't proven that the select arguments are being decoded in the kernel at all. > That makes it *select*, in my book. As opposed to what truss says the kernel is doing. Truss seems to get everything else right. Is this just an astronomically huge coincidence that truss is broken when it comes to select? Even if it is there, who really gives a fuck? It isn't there for mere mortals to use, so for all practical purposes, it isn't there. You can't write a native mode program that references select that won't use poll. You can't write a native mode program that uses the syscall interface and get anything except poll. But the reality is, it ain't there. > > > A statically linked 4.1.3 binary will trap the select(2) stub through > > > trap entry 93. > > > > What evidence do you have that it's even trapping? Everything could be > > handled in the library and truss could be telling the truth -- that it's > > using poll. We do know how truss works. It traps, and inspects the > > processor state to see what triggered the trap. > > I disassembled it and saw "trap". Pretty damn obvious. The library > isn't going to change because it's *statically* (HELLO, *STATICALLY*) > linked. HELLO! HELLO TERRY! IS THERE ANYONE HOME? Have you actually run the a SunOS binary on Solaris or are you just talking out of your ass? Even though it's statically linked, truss shows that more than a few shared libraries are loaded from /usr/4lib and /usr/ucblib. It even loads /usr/lib/libc at runtime. You can't prove that the traps aren't fixed up by the loader or the ABI runtime before the code is executed. Do tell, is truss is lying again? > > > Poll's merits are on the basis of an improper implementation of select. > > > > Well, that's the first time *that* has come up. Pray tell, now what's > > wrong with select. > > It blows it's shorts afer FD_SETSIZE fd's in the most recent release, > but not in -current. This has nothing to do with whether select is better or worse than poll. Darken my email doorstep no more with this crap. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 13:28:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03361 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03345 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA14236; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:24:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605292024.NAA14236@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: rashid@rk.ios.com (Rashid Karimov) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:24:37 -0700 (MST) Cc: davidg@Root.COM, jgreco@solaria.sol.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605291750.NAA23605@rk.ios.com> from "Rashid Karimov" at May 29, 96 01:50:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >Am I just totally whacked out, or is this perhaps a reasonable thing to do, > > >given that I'd really rather not have to absorb the extra write activity on > > >the filesystems... does anybody else perceive any value along these lines > > >of thought? > > > > I added an option "noatime" to mount/fstab and implemented a special > > per-mount flag for this in the kernel. I was only interested in disabling > > the access time; I wanted the inode change time and modify times to still > > work correctly. My application, of course, was wcarchive - a machine with > > millions of files that spends about 1/3-1/2 of all of it's disk I/O just > > updating the access times in the inodes. > > David, could you submit those patches ? May be we can even add > this as an OPTION to the kernel config file? There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional BSD implementation). This would let access times be updated in core, but only scheduled to be written at a later time (not forced out immediately). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 13:31:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03647 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anacreon.sol.net (anacreon.sol.net [206.55.64.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03632 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solaria.sol.net (solaria.sol.net [206.55.65.75]) by anacreon.sol.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA09317; Wed, 29 May 1996 15:30:33 -0500 Received: from localhost by solaria.sol.net (8.5/8.5) id PAA03556; Wed, 29 May 1996 15:32:26 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199605292032.PAA03556@solaria.sol.net> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 15:32:24 CDT Cc: rashid@rk.ios.com, davidg@Root.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605292024.NAA14236@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 29, 96 01:24:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL65] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > David, could you submit those patches ? May be we can even add > > this as an OPTION to the kernel config file? > > There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is > not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional > BSD implementation). > > This would let access times be updated in core, but only scheduled to > be written at a later time (not forced out immediately). For some of us, with maxxed out disks, the most desirable "a later time" is sometime between when hell freezes over and eternity's end. Although it would be nice to have it both ways. ;-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 13:33:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03807 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03799 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA02323; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605292032.NAA02323@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: rashid@rk.ios.com (Rashid Karimov), davidg@Root.COM, jgreco@solaria.sol.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 13:24:37 PDT." <199605292024.NAA14236@phaeton.artisoft.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:32:29 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > >Am I just totally whacked out, or is this perhaps a reasonable thing to do, >> > >given that I'd really rather not have to absorb the extra write activity on >> > >the filesystems... does anybody else perceive any value along these lines >> > >of thought? >> > >> > I added an option "noatime" to mount/fstab and implemented a special >> > per-mount flag for this in the kernel. I was only interested in disabling >> > the access time; I wanted the inode change time and modify times to still >> > work correctly. My application, of course, was wcarchive - a machine with >> > millions of files that spends about 1/3-1/2 of all of it's disk I/O just >> > updating the access times in the inodes. >> >> David, could you submit those patches ? May be we can even add >> this as an OPTION to the kernel config file? > >There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is >not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional >BSD implementation). > >This would let access times be updated in core, but only scheduled to >be written at a later time (not forced out immediately). They already are updated in-core and only written out during sync. The problem is that on busy machines, *thousands* of inodes have to be written out during the sync, and this can take 10+ seconds. With sync occuring every 30 seconds, this means the machine spends 33% of it's disk I/O time *just* writing out inodes. The access time is almost completely useless on a busy fileserver, so this is just a waste. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 13:45:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04757 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA04742; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.20]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14606(10)>; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:44:42 PDT Received: from gnu.mc.xerox.com (gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com) by gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-TB) id AA00595; Wed, 29 May 96 16:44:52 EDT Received: by gnu.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27425; Wed, 29 May 96 16:44:51 EDT Message-Id: <9605292044.AA27425@gnu.mc.xerox.com> To: "Gary Palmer" Cc: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey), hackers@freebsd.org, scrappy@ki.net Subject: Re: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 10:55:36 PDT." <1403.833392536@palmer.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:44:45 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You found a valid bug in the compiler. Were you using gcc? Which version? marty From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 13:45:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04797 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA04791 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA14327; Wed, 29 May 1996 13:43:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605292043.NAA14327@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:43:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605291956.PAA23238@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at May 29, 96 03:56:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The thing is going to push *select* arguments on the stack, and then > > trap 93. > > > > This won't change when you run it under ABI emulation as opposed to > > running it in it's native environment. > > > Is this just guessing on your part? No. This is knowing that non-writable text segments don't mutate. Code does not mutate. > You haven't proven that the select arguments are being decoded in the > kernel at all. And I don't have to. *uninstall* the 4.x binary compatability package, which is an optional install package on your Solaris box, or try to run a statically linke 4.x binary using select on a Solaris 2.[012] box that has not been updated. See the ENOSYS for yourself. > > That makes it *select*, in my book. > > As opposed to what truss says the kernel is doing. Truss seems to get > everything else right. Is this just an astronomically huge coincidence > that truss is broken when it comes to select? No, this is just a prudent decision on the part of SunSoft, given the intent of phasing select out in favor of poll. > HELLO! HELLO TERRY! IS THERE ANYONE HOME? Have you actually run the > a SunOS binary on Solaris or are you just talking out of your ass? cs 45% uname -a SunOS cs 4.1.3_U1 1 sun4c icarus 52% uname -a SunOS icarus 5.4 generic sun4m sparc > Even though it's statically linked, truss shows that more than a few > shared libraries are loaded from /usr/4lib and /usr/ucblib. It even > loads /usr/lib/libc at runtime. You can't prove that the traps aren't > fixed up by the loader or the ABI runtime before the code is executed. Do an ldd on your binaries. If you are loading shared libraries, you must not be statically linked. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 14:27:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08771 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08761 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0uOsmF-000448C; Wed, 29 May 96 14:27 PDT Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA12091 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:27:35 GMT To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 13:32:29 MST." <199605292032.NAA02323@Root.COM> Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 21:27:34 +0000 Message-ID: <12089.833405254@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > They already are updated in-core and only written out during sync. The > problem is that on busy machines, *thousands* of inodes have to be written > out during the sync, and this can take 10+ seconds. With sync occuring every > 30 seconds, this means the machine spends 33% of it's disk I/O time *just* > writing out inodes. The access time is almost completely useless on a busy > fileserver, so this is just a waste. Veritas offers this as a mount-time option as far as I recall. I belive we should have it, laptops will love it too. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 14:32:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09070 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09065 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA14477; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:30:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605292130.OAA14477@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Forgiving select() call. To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:30:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: kaleb@x.org, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605292043.NAA14327@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 29, 96 01:43:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Even though it's statically linked, truss shows that more than a few > > shared libraries are loaded from /usr/4lib and /usr/ucblib. It even > > loads /usr/lib/libc at runtime. You can't prove that the traps aren't > > fixed up by the loader or the ABI runtime before the code is executed. > > Do an ldd on your binaries. If you are loading shared libraries, you > must not be statically linked. Apparently, the ABI support has changed. In Solaris 2.4, the loader loads an ABI module program. THAT'S what's doing the mmaping on your behalf. The traps are routed through emulation into the local library to implement the calls. >From the gdb perspective, stepping through the code, the code calls select (trap 93). This is actually less efficient than simply specifying an alternate systent[] table pointer, and doing call emulation in the kernel. Depending on where you draw the system interface line, then it can be considered to be calling poll (certainly, that's the implementation on the other side of the call trap). The application, whose code is not changes, believes it is calling select. Apparently the select has 1ms resoloution, but rounds down. The additional overhead is sufficient to add about 200us to the time, which is enough that it appears to be providing the requested delay, when in fact it is not. My appologies to Kaleb; from his perspective, he is right. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 14:37:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09385 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09366 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA13320; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:34:48 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA18276 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 29 May 1996 23:32:22 +0200 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA23145 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 29 May 1996 23:11:57 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id WAA11482; Wed, 29 May 1996 22:49:59 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199605292049.WAA11482@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:49:58 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, bde@zeta.org.au, grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605290359.NAA05697@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 29, 96 01:29:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote... > Nobody barfed on the 100-column stuff in userconfig, so I was presuming this > wasn't an issue. If anyone wants to see what 80-column braindamage looks > like, they should scope out pcvt. (or was it syscons? I can't remember...) > > > I also realize that this is going to be a highly unpopular position to > > take in these comparatively early days of GUI technology, so be it - > > just consider me 3-4 years ahead of my time on this issue. :-) > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced Video Option board). _ __________________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 14:49:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10311 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cesium.clock.org (cesium.clock.org [17.255.4.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10295 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cesium.clock.org id <119171-19642>; Wed, 29 May 1996 14:48:50 -0800 From: Sean Doran To: davidg@Root.COM, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jgreco@solaria.sol.net, rashid@rk.ios.com Message-Id: <96May29.144850pdt.119171-19642+41@cesium.clock.org> Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:48:46 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So what's wrong with turning off the update daemon on such machines, or at least making it call sync(2) at much less frequent intervals? This is a venerable practice on far-too-busy news machines. Also, another venerable practice is to make the inode cache *huge* (tens of thousands of inodes in ninode/desiredvnodes, as appropriate). I would be willing to bet that these two changes, neither of which needs anything more than adb/gdb, and both of which are widely portable to 4BSD systems of all types, will make your max-ed out disks much happier. Now what I'd really like to see being worked on for flinging around news too fast is playing with 4.4BSD union mounts so that at the lowest layer one finds the oldest articles, and in each higher layer, one finds newer articles, and the upper layer is current. Expiry would then mean: -- stop incoming news -- unmount lowest layer -- newfs lowest layer -- mount former lowest layer as upper layer -- restart incoming news and then some bookkeeping as needed to adjust the history and overview files, which probably can be done in spare cycles. Unlink(2) is too bloody slow. You probably lose if you are doing mostly-reads on articles several generations old. If, however, you're a big news distribution site... Sean. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 15:53:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18848 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 15:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hemi.com (hemi.com [204.132.158.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18827 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 15:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mbarkah@localhost) by hemi.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA04634 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:55:09 -0600 From: Ade Barkah Message-Id: <199605292255.QAA04634@hemi.com> Subject: panic: rtfree To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 16:55:08 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, one of our machines hit a 'panic:rtfree' a few minutes ago. Unfortunately kern.dumpdev was set to "disabled" (argh). The machine is running 2.1-R. I glanced at rtfree() in /usr/src/sys/net/route.c, but of course not having a stack trace (plus my lack of knowledge) didn't get me anywhere. A few minutes prior to the crash, the following was also logged: /kernel: arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo (repeated various times.) The kernel has NMBCLUSTERS at 2048, if that matters (which is ironically smaller than the default, since we have maxusers=128.) Sorry I don't have much more in- formation. =-( Thanks in advance for any hint which could shed some light of what actually happened. Regards, -Ade ------------------------------------------------------------------- Inet: mbarkah@hemi.com - HEMISPHERE ONLINE - ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 15:54:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18882 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 15:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smyrno.sol.net (smyrno.sol.net [206.55.64.117]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18873 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 15:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solaria.sol.net (solaria.sol.net [206.55.65.75]) by smyrno.sol.net (8.6.11/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA10181; Wed, 29 May 1996 17:53:41 -0500 Received: from localhost by solaria.sol.net (8.5/8.5) id RAA04893; Wed, 29 May 1996 17:55:29 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199605292255.RAA04893@solaria.sol.net> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: smd@cesium.clock.org (Sean Doran) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 17:55:26 CDT Cc: davidg@Root.COM, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org, rashid@rk.ios.com In-Reply-To: <96May29.144850pdt.119171-19642+41@cesium.clock.org> from "Sean Doran" at May 29, 96 02:48:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL65] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So what's wrong with turning off the update daemon on such machines, > or at least making it call sync(2) at much less frequent intervals? > > This is a venerable practice on far-too-busy news machines. I don't think we have a "separate" update daemon.. although the interval can be tuned with sysctl. I'm a little leery of doing this however since I believe other metadata gets written out too. > Also, another venerable practice is to make the inode cache > *huge* (tens of thousands of inodes in ninode/desiredvnodes, > as appropriate). > > I would be willing to bet that these two changes, neither > of which needs anything more than adb/gdb, and both of which > are widely portable to 4BSD systems of all types, will make your > max-ed out disks much happier. Well I'm open to suggestions. Punching up desiredvnodes may help somewhat, but I already crank up other stuff which sets that pretty high. > Now what I'd really like to see being worked on for flinging > around news too fast is playing with 4.4BSD union mounts so that > at the lowest layer one finds the oldest articles, and in > each higher layer, one finds newer articles, and the upper > layer is current. > > Expiry would then mean: > > -- stop incoming news > -- unmount lowest layer > -- newfs lowest layer > -- mount former lowest layer as upper layer > -- restart incoming news > > and then some bookkeeping as needed to adjust the history > and overview files, which probably can be done in spare > cycles. > > Unlink(2) is too bloody slow. > > You probably lose if you are doing mostly-reads on articles > several generations old. If, however, you're a big news distribution > site... If you're a big news distribution site, by definition you don't _need_ news that's several generations old, because you drop all your deadbeat feeds :-) (I keep news for a day and expire every 4 hours). Ah well. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 16:03:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19512 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19490 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id AAA02953; Thu, 30 May 1996 00:00:15 +0100 (BST) To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) cc: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Hackers) From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 1996 18:52:09 +0200." <199605291652.SAA24396@allegro.lemis.de> Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 00:00:14 +0100 Message-ID: <2951.833410814@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote in message ID <199605291652.SAA24396@allegro.lemis.de>: > At this point, of course, our mileage varies. Here, you would get the > result: > + (gdb) p pdu->version > + $3 = -1 Sorry, BZZZZZZZT The actual program, producing the actual results: gdb apps/snmpwalk GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.13 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1994 Free Software Foundation, Inc... (gdb) break snmp_api.c:1006 Breakpoint 1 at 0x96df: file snmp_api.c, line 1006. (gdb) run -v 1 localhost public Starting program: /mnt/root/usr/home/gary/ftp/ucd-snmp-3.1/apps/snmpwalk -v 1 localhost public Breakpoint 1, snmp_send (session=0x65100, pdu=0x65180) at snmp_api.c:1007 1007 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ (gdb) print pdu->version $1 = -1 (gdb) print session->version $2 = 0 (gdb) break 1009 Breakpoint 2 at 0x96ef: file snmp_api.c, line 1009. (gdb) cont Continuing. Breakpoint 2, snmp_send (session=0x65100, pdu=0x65180) at snmp_api.c:1010 1010 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ (gdb) print pdu->version $3 = 0 (gdb) print session->version $4 = 0 (gdb) s 1011 fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); (gdb) 1013 return 0; (gdb) No version specified 1068 snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; So, you see, GDB says that pdu->version does NOT equal SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION. I guess it would have tracked down the problem quicker, but I STILL don't like gdb :-) I guess it comes from a time when I tried (and NEARLY suceeded) in porting the FreeBSD kernel to another machine ... printf was all I had :-) > I'd do this differently in gdb. Personally, I'd look at the code that > was generated. Your code won't look like this, of course, because > this code works. But you can see a few things: Only if you read 80x86, which I don't, and probably never will. I've been corrupted by a RISC processor, and hope never to have to touch a CISC assembler ever again :-) I know (or used to) 6502 and 68000, and that's plenty CISC to last enough a lifetime :-) [SNIP] > Reading assembler is tough, of course, but there are other ways. In > any case, you save a lot by doing it this way rather than going and > editing and recompiling possibly dozens of times. Hmm. Maybe. Call me stoopid, but I still like my printf's thankyou :-) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 16:12:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA20856 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isbalham (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA20839 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id AAA12219; Thu, 30 May 1996 00:11:36 +0100 Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:44:19 +0100 X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 23:48:48 +0100 To: Randy Terbush From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Subject: Re: 8 character login limit Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 1:01 pm 29/5/96, Randy Terbush wrote: >Can anyone shed some light on the reasons for this limit? > >After a quick look, it would appear that the only thing that >trips on this limit is 'login'. I have not checked the getpw*() >functions. > >Is it out of the question to remove this restriction? > >Comments? A while ago, I had occasion to do a closely-related exercise to increase the significant password length on one of the mainstream commercial Unixes (no names, no litigation (I hope!) but it came from BSD4.x originally). You really wouldn't believe the ramifications. Unless the code has cleaned itself up a lot in the meanwhile I'd have to rate this as quite a Big Deal. -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 16:13:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21032 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhs.elan.af.mil (mhs.elan.af.mil [129.198.22.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA20984; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:13:13 -0700 (PDT) From: ELLISOND%SC2.EDW@mhs.elan.af.mil X-Nvlenv-01Date-Transferred: 29-May-1996 16:09:25 -0700; at SC-NGM1.EDW X-Nvlenv-01Date-Transferred: 29-May-1996 16:10:28 -0400; at SC-NGM2.EDW X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 29-May-1996 16:09:57 -0400; at SC-2.EDW Priority: Urgent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PartBoundary_Wed_May_29_16:10:52__22232764" Date: 29 May 96 16:10:00 EDT To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: FBSD 2.1 Alarm Monitoring - Multi I/O (Advice) Message-Id: Reply-To: ELLISOND%SC2.EDW@mhs.elan.af.mil References: Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (This is a MIME message. If you can read this, your mail reader does not support MIME. Please contact your E-Mail administrator if you have any questions) --PartBoundary_Wed_May_29_16:10:52__22232764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Form: Memo Text: (21 lines follow) Hello, I would like to configure a FreeBSD 2.1 box to monitor Contact Closure Alarms generated from a Motorola Smartnet II Trunked System Controller, Multiple channel banks and a DS3-Microwave System. Is there a card or method supported by FreeBSD 2.1 that can handle this type of operation? I also plan on using the same box to attach multiple RS232 communications devices (3 remote site controller, 3 Best UPS, and 2 Motorola Unix Boxes). I am considering a Cyclades 16 port board (previous experience with board) for this job, but if there is a card with the RJ45 connectors on the card instead of an external box I would rather use that. Any advice would be appreciated. I hope to place an order for the required equipment within the next few days or early next week. Duane R. Ellison, SrA 95 CS/SCSML Land Mobile Radio Bldg 4910 Forbes Ave 805-277-6069/7167 Use Proportional Font: true Attachment Count: 0 --PartBoundary_Wed_May_29_16:10:52__22232764 Content-Type: UNKNOWN X-NVL-Content-Typename: UNKNOWN Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATTRIBS.BND" Content-Transfer-Encoding: x-uue begin 777 ATTRIBS.BND M0F5Y;VYD(%!A8VME9"!!='1R:6)U=&5S``"ZC6; Wed, 29 May 1996 16:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA13134; Wed, 29 May 1996 19:27:49 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199605292327.TAA13134@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: vt100/syscons/pcvt To: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD-hackers), wilko@yedi.iaf.nl Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 19:27:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Wilko Bulte wrote > Subject: Re: Indentation styles > > As Michael Smith wrote... > > > Nobody barfed on the 100-column stuff in userconfig, so I was presuming this > > wasn't an issue. If anyone wants to see what 80-column braindamage looks > > like, they should scope out pcvt. (or was it syscons? I can't remember...) > > > > > I also realize that this is going to be a highly unpopular position to > > > take in these comparatively early days of GUI technology, so be it - > > > just consider me 3-4 years ahead of my time on this issue. :-) > > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced > Video Option board). > Bzzt. Wrong. The vt100 without AVO would do 14 lines of 132 columns. Check the vt100 handbook and old termcap (Uniplus SYS III I think sources...) Bill ex-DEC Field Circus Vax and VT100 board shuffler... From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 18:02:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA06278 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06271 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) id SAA12551 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 18:02:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer Message-Id: <199605300102.SAA12551@ref.tfs.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Can someone with NIS check this? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk the environment: 2.1 machine a chroot tree with complete 2.2 environment NIS used for UID foo in both real and chroot environs. the actions: su root cd /chroot chroot . id (see that uid is 0) su foo id (see that uid is still 0) can anyone confirm that this does/doesn't occur in an all 2.2 environ? if uid 'foo' is in the chroot/etc/passwd (and friends) then su works and the 2nd id(1) shows that the uid has in fact changed to 'foo'. Unfortunatly I have onlt a couple of machines here using NIS so I can't do more experiments as they are all 2.1. julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 18:38:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA09883 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA09873 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 18:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA10380; Thu, 30 May 1996 11:26:51 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605300156.LAA10380@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: 8 character login limit To: randy@zyzzyva.com (Randy Terbush) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:26:50 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605291801.NAA13588@sierra.zyzzyva.com> from "Randy Terbush" at May 29, 96 01:01:33 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Randy Terbush stands accused of saying: > > Can anyone shed some light on the reasons for this limit? History. Interoperability with other Unices. > After a quick look, it would appear that the only thing that > trips on this limit is 'login'. I have not checked the getpw*() > functions. Anything to do with NIS. > Is it out of the question to remove this restriction? You can change UT_NAMESIZE in /usr/include/utmp.h and recompile the world; people have done this and it works, but you will have problems with : - any precompiled programs, or source that assumes the 8-character name limit. - NIS. The NIS protocol mandates an 8-character username. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 19:10:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA12979 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 19:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from world.net (sydney2.world.net [198.142.12.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA12973 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 19:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by world.net (8.7.4/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA28892; Thu, 30 May 1996 12:08:45 +1000 (EST) Received: (proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.7.4/Proff-950810) id MAA29450; Thu, 30 May 1996 12:09:52 +1000 From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199605300209.MAA29450@suburbia.net> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 12:09:52 +1000 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605292049.WAA11482@yedi.iaf.nl> from "Wilko Bulte" at May 29, 96 10:49:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) Speaking of which, is anyone working on porting SVGATextMode to FreeBSD? I normally run in 170x53 text mode on my linux box and 80x25 has become insufferable. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 19:36:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA17383 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 19:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.64.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA17354; Wed, 29 May 1996 19:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA17758; Wed, 29 May 1996 19:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 19:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605300236.TAA17758@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: cher@phys.msu.su CC: stable@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, ccd@forgery.cs.berkeley.edu In-reply-to: (message from Alicher Alikhodjaev on Wed, 29 May 1996 18:49:39 +0400 (W-SU)) Subject: Re: CCD driver bug ? From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * ccdconfig -Cv * ... - Ok! * newfs -f 512 -b 4096 -m 1 /dev/ccd0c * ... - Ok! * but: * fsck /dev/ccd0c * Can't open /dev/rccd0c: Device not configured * * disklabel ccd0 * disklabel: /dev/rccd0c: Device not configured * To make device entries I used patch to MAKEDEV from ccd-960131. This is because the raw device (/dev/rccd*)'s major number has changed since then. The block device is unchanged so other operations work. Since you said you have -stable, you can use the MAKEDEV in /usr/src/etc/etc.i386 to make the nodes. Or just change the "72" to "74" in your MAKEDEV that you already have. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 19:44:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18770 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 19:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18601 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 19:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id VAA02832; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:42:28 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199605300242.VAA02832@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: 8 character login limit To: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 21:42:28 -0500 (CDT) Cc: randy@zyzzyva.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Bob Bishop" at May 29, 96 11:48:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > At 1:01 pm 29/5/96, Randy Terbush wrote: > >Can anyone shed some light on the reasons for this limit? "Historical". Given that people have traditionally wanted to break this limit for aesthetic reasons, it's never been of great importance to break such a basic fundamental parameter in UNIX. > >After a quick look, it would appear that the only thing that > >trips on this limit is 'login'. I have not checked the getpw*() > >functions. Check your applications. > >Is it out of the question to remove this restriction? > > > >Comments? > > A while ago, I had occasion to do a closely-related exercise to increase > the significant password length on one of the mainstream commercial Unixes > (no names, no litigation (I hope!) but it came from BSD4.x originally). You > really wouldn't believe the ramifications. Unless the code has cleaned > itself up a lot in the meanwhile I'd have to rate this as quite a Big Deal. It breaks Lots Of Things. Including various portions of the OS where the "8" constant is assumed or coded without use of a macro, or an integral part of a protocol (NIS, etc). Including precompiled applications. Including most legacy code. Printf formats with %8s in them. char uname[8]'s. All sort of assumptions. Sound like fun yet? Folks I have talked to generally consider this either to be an exercise for the bored, desperate, or stupid. Since I have never actually heard a good reason for someone to want to do this, I have a little bit of a problem picturing why it becomes such an issue every once in a while :-) The not-good reason people always seem to try to give is "e-mail addresses", but the reality is that Sendmail already can deal with it if you want it to. I can map Joe.Greco@ns.sol.net -> jgreco@ns.sol.net for inbound and jgreco@*.sol.net -> Joe.Greco@ns.sol.net for outbound It's not hard. I have a real hard time picturing any other need for this... (not to say that a valid reason doesn't exist, but..) To be honest, FreeBSD (and 4.4BSD in general) has done a good job of isolating a lot of this and using UT_NAMESIZE. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 21:53:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02421 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA02413 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 21:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0uOzjY-00045MC; Wed, 29 May 96 21:53 PDT Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA13825 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 02:57:30 GMT To: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-to: mailgeeks@freebsd.org Subject: WANTED: mail-relays in north america ! Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 02:57:28 +0000 Message-ID: <13823.833425048@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The email load on freebsd.org is still too high for our little setup, so we would like to find four to eight mail-relays to share the load of the "heavy" domains: .net .com .org .us .gov .mil What we need is: 1. a machine, we prefer FreeBSD, obviously :-) 2. that is well connected (Min T1) (needed BW is a couple of kbyte/sec) 3. has plenty of space in /var (> 40 Mb free) 4. is up 24h/24h 5. has some cpu cycles to burn. 6. is accepted by the owner of the machine, facility and net to be used for this purpose. What we want to do: Make an mx-record that points to your machine, so that you machine will receive some share of the emails to domains mentioned above and deliver them to the recipients. Why ? Because we can deliver one copy to your machine, which will then deliver 1 copy to each the 10 destination machines, thus saving bandwidth at freebsd.org. What happens if your machine goes down ? Some mail will be stuck on your machine, but freebsd.org will just deliver new emails to other machines in this group of mail-relays. Is there any software to install ? No. We rely on sendmail as it comes right out of the box. Is there any configuration to deal with ? No. Is there any extra work for me ? No. Do I get anything for it ? No. (We will mention you on our web-side and in the handbook, but that's all.) Yes, I can help you! Send email to mailgeeks@freebsd.org, please tell us a little about the machine, its net connection, who has approved this use, which of the domains listed above you would be willing to serve and a traceroute to freebsd.org from the machine. Thanks in advance! Poul-Henning From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed May 29 23:23:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12857 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nike.efn.org (gurney_j@garcia.efn.org [198.68.17.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12831 for ; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gurney_j@localhost) by nike.efn.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02570; Wed, 29 May 1996 23:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 23:25:20 -0700 (PDT) From: John-Mark Gurney Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: c source grep Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am looking for a utility that will be able to search a source file and it's includes in search of something like a struct of a function declaration... I'm not sure it such a util exists... if it doesn't I will write one... but I don't want to re-invent the wheel... (almost said invent the wheel :) )... thanks for your pointers... TTYL.. John-Mark gurney_j@efn.org http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Modem/FAX: (541) 683-6954 (FreeBSD Box) Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD (unix) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 00:33:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA23337 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 00:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA23313 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 00:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id DAA22888 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 03:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 03:33:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: snmp daemon for FreeBSD available Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For those that are interested in an snmpd package that will compile, install and run under FreeBSD, there is a package called ucd-snmp available, that, with a relatively large patch created by Gary Palmer (most of it) and myself (preliminary, get it to compile under FreeBSD stuff)...works. To get the base distribution: ftp.ece.ucdavis.edu:/pub/snmp/ucd-snmp.tar.gz Patch file: ftp.ki.net:/pub/users/scrappy/ucd-snmp.3.1-diffs.gz NOTE: these patches have been submitted to the developer, and he has stated that they should be incorporated into the next official releaes. I'm going to work on getting a ports-package created for it over the next week or so, making installing it a little cleaner and central... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 01:20:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA00894 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 01:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itesec.hsc.fr (root@itesec.hsc.fr [192.70.106.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA00867 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 01:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tetard.hsc.fr (tetard.hsc.fr [192.70.106.43]) by itesec.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/itesec-1.8) with ESMTP id KAA28142; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:20:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by tetard.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/tetard-uucp-2.8) id KAA01350; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:19:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: Philippe Regnauld Message-Id: <199605300819.KAA01350@tetard.hsc.fr> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:19:34 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (hackers) In-Reply-To: <199605300209.MAA29450@suburbia.net> from Julian Assange at "May 30, 96 12:09:52 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Assange écrit / writes: > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > Speaking of which, is anyone working on porting SVGATextMode to FreeBSD? > I normally run in 170x53 text mode on my linux box and 80x25 has become > insufferable. BTW, PCVT offers 132x60 with some VGA cards. options PCVT in the kernel. -- Phil -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Philippe Regnauld |_______Herve Schauer Consultants_______| regnauld@hsc.fr | +-------------------+FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations+-----------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 01:20:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA00989 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 01:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA00977 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 01:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itesec.hsc.fr (root@itesec.hsc.fr [192.70.106.33]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id BAA18163 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 01:20:23 -0700 Received: from tetard.hsc.fr (tetard.hsc.fr [192.70.106.43]) by itesec.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/itesec-1.8) with ESMTP id KAA28101; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:19:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by tetard.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/tetard-uucp-2.8) id KAA01341; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:18:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: Philippe Regnauld Message-Id: <199605300818.KAA01341@tetard.hsc.fr> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: proff@suburbia.net (Julian Assange) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:18:32 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (hackers) In-Reply-To: <199605300209.MAA29450@suburbia.net> from Julian Assange at "May 30, 96 12:09:52 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Assange écrit / writes: > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > Speaking of which, is anyone working on porting SVGATextMode to FreeBSD? > I normally run in 170x53 text mode on my linux box and 80x25 has become > insufferable. YES! We had this discussion a while back -- but didn't get anywhere, as it seemed there were too many problems (i.e.: we'd have to use most of the X server). Look in the freefall archives, part of the thread was: Subject: Re: vgalib for FreeBSD! I remember Soren and a few others (including Terry) participating. -- Phil -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Philippe Regnauld |_______Herve Schauer Consultants_______| regnauld@hsc.fr | +-------------------+FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations+-----------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 02:36:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA14442 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 02:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA14360; Thu, 30 May 1996 02:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uP48x-000QZFC; Thu, 30 May 96 11:35 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA16982; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:03:22 +0200 Message-Id: <199605300803.KAA16982@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: I HATE OPTIMISING COMPILERS To: gpalmer@freebsd.org (Gary Palmer) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:03:21 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier), hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <2951.833410814@palmer.demon.co.uk> from "Gary Palmer" at May 30, 96 00:00:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > > Greg Lehey wrote in message ID > <199605291652.SAA24396@allegro.lemis.de>: >> At this point, of course, our mileage varies. Here, you would get the >> result: > >> + (gdb) p pdu->version >> + $3 = -1 > > Sorry, BZZZZZZZT Thank you. I needed that. > The actual program, producing the actual results: > > gdb apps/snmpwalk > GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it > under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. > GDB 4.13 (i386-unknown-freebsd), > Copyright 1994 Free Software Foundation, Inc... > (gdb) break snmp_api.c:1006 You can abbreviate these commands, you know. > Breakpoint 1 at 0x96df: file snmp_api.c, line 1006. > (gdb) run -v 1 localhost public > Starting program: /mnt/root/usr/home/gary/ftp/ucd-snmp-3.1/apps/snmpwalk -v 1 localhost public > > Breakpoint 1, snmp_send (session=0x65100, pdu=0x65180) at snmp_api.c:1007 > 1007 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ > (gdb) print pdu->version > $1 = -1 > (gdb) print session->version > $2 = 0 I no longer have your original message, but I thought it said this variable had the value 2. > (gdb) break 1009 > Breakpoint 2 at 0x96ef: file snmp_api.c, line 1009. > (gdb) cont > Continuing. > > Breakpoint 2, snmp_send (session=0x65100, pdu=0x65180) at snmp_api.c:1010 > 1010 if (pdu->version == SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION){ > (gdb) print pdu->version > $3 = 0 > (gdb) print session->version > $4 = 0 > (gdb) s > 1011 fprintf(stderr, "No version specified\n"); > (gdb) > 1013 return 0; > (gdb) > No version specified > 1068 snmp_errno = SNMPERR_BAD_ADDRESS; > > So, you see, GDB says that pdu->version does NOT equal > SNMP_DEFAULT_VERSION. I guess it would have tracked down the problem > quicker, but I STILL don't like gdb :-) You have the choice. If you choose to waste time, that's up to you. FWIW, I don't think too much of gdb either, but it's there, and it beats the hell out of printf. I just don't understand what you're trying to say in this example. I said that the real thing would be different. The problem here is, of course, that gdb is going by line numbers, and the optimizer has rearranged things. It would have been instructive to single-step through these instructions (with 'n(ext)', not 's(tep)') to show where gdb thinks it was going. > I guess it comes from a time when I tried (and NEARLY suceeded) in > porting the FreeBSD kernel to another machine ... printf was all I had >: -) I would have ported a debugger first. >> I'd do this differently in gdb. Personally, I'd look at the code that >> was generated. Your code won't look like this, of course, because >> this code works. But you can see a few things: > > Only if you read 80x86, which I don't, and probably never will. I've > been corrupted by a RISC processor, and hope never to have to touch a > CISC assembler ever again :-) I know (or used to) 6502 and 68000, and > that's plenty CISC to last enough a lifetime :-) Hmm. Depends on the RISC processor. >> Reading assembler is tough, of course, but there are other ways. In >> any case, you save a lot by doing it this way rather than going and >> editing and recompiling possibly dozens of times. > > Hmm. Maybe. Call me stoopid, but I still like my printf's thankyou :-) Your choice. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 03:15:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA20520 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 03:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA20507 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 03:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA14948; Thu, 30 May 1996 20:11:19 +1000 Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 20:11:19 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605301011.UAA14948@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: rashid@rk.ios.com, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? Cc: davidg@Root.COM, hackers@freebsd.org, jgreco@solaria.sol.net Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is >not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional >BSD implementation). When was this traditional? >This would let access times be updated in core, but only scheduled to >be written at a later time (not forced out immediately). 4.4BSD and I think Net/2 always only scheduled them to be written at a later time. At the end of every read (incorrectly including unsuccessful ones), access times are marked for update: ip->i_flag |= IN_ACCESS; /* see ufs_readwrite.c */ At certain checkpoints, the access times are updated. E.g., in ufs_close() if (inuse && !locked) ITIMES(ip, &time, &time); If IN_ACCESS is set, this sets the access time in-core, sets IN_MODIFIED, and clears IN_ACCESS. It doesn't write the inode. Setting IN_MODIFIED schedules the inode to be written on the next sync, or when it is reused. ffs_sync() calls VOP_UPDATE() with the sync-update flag clear and ffs_update() schedules a delayed write. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 05:16:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA09132 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 05:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (rwwa.com [198.115.177.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA09115 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 05:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.rwwa.com (localhost.rwwa.com [127.0.0.1]) by spooky.rwwa.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA03960; Mon, 27 May 1996 08:54:05 -0400 Message-Id: <199605271254.IAA03960@spooky.rwwa.com> X-Authentication-Warning: spooky.rwwa.com: Host localhost.rwwa.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Michael Smith cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: three stage boot again In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 May 1996 15:17:14 +0930." <199605270547.PAA25723@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:54:04 -0400 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think you're on the money here; the third stage shouldn't care how it > got into memory, it should be able to derive _everything_ by examining the > environment that it finds itself in on startup. Not that I entirely disagree, but just for context, the way DEC does it is with a ``boot parameters block'' which is used to pass parameters from the secondary to the tertiary bootstrap. It includes things like the bootstrap driver, the memory bitmask, boot arguments, boot device, etc... This then becomes a well defined interface between the secondary (machine specific) and the tertiary (machine independent) bootstraps. PS.: The tertiary bootstrap can also load and boot anything, not just VMS... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 592 8935, Net: witr@rwwa.COM From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 06:55:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA28280 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 06:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA28253; Thu, 30 May 1996 06:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA23507; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:50:55 +1000 Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 23:50:55 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605301350.XAA23507@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com, phk@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Somebody explain this to me again.. :-) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Why does the ``libraries'' target in /usr/src/Makefile cleans >automatically? Sure, you can set NOCLEANDIR but then that turns off The libraries might be different if the compiler has changed. The compiler might change because it's not in lib-tools. However, since libraries are built before the compiler in the main pass, they probably won't change in the main pass. They may change when everything is built again. The compiler should probably be in lib-tools. Then to ensure that a stable version of it gets built, you could blow it away instead of the libraries. It may take longer to rebuild than the libraries :-]. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 07:13:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01335 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 07:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA01321 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 07:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.mcs.com (root@Venus.mcs.com [192.160.127.92]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA22661; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:12:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: by venus.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Thu, 30 May 96 09:12 CDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Potential f77 bugs To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu (Steven G. Kargl) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:12:50 -0500 (CDT) From: "Lars Jonas Olsson" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jonas@mcs.net In-Reply-To: <199605291707.KAA00216@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> from "Steven G. Kargl" at May 29, 96 10:07:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I do not like the tone of your message. I'm not using Fortran much anyway, so if you think your script is better I do not object to you commiting it. Jonas From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 07:34:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA06110 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 07:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06066 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 07:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I5BF2240R4000H25@mail.rwth-aachen.de> for freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org; Thu, 30 May 1996 12:30:45 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA20437 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Thu, 30 May 1996 12:36:13 +0200 Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 12:36:13 +0200 From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: newgrp(1) To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Message-id: <199605301036.MAA20437@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OSF has it. Is there a chance to get it also for FreeBSD? newgrp(1) newgrp(1) NAME newgrp - Changes primary group identification of a shell process SYNOPSIS newgrp [-l] [group] newgrp [-] [group] The newgrp command changes the primary group identification of the current shell process to group. You remain logged in and the current directory is unchanged, but calculations of access permissions to files are performed with respect to the primary group ID. --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 07:36:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA06583 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 07:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA06577; Thu, 30 May 1996 07:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA26340; Thu, 30 May 1996 15:34:51 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Thu, 30 May 1996 15:34:58 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01311; Thu, 30 May 1996 15:34:24 +0100 (BST) From: Paul Richards Message-Id: <199605301434.PAA01311@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Subject: Re: Somebody explain this to me again.. :-) To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 15:34:23 +0100 (BST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, phk@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605301350.XAA23507@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at May 30, 96 11:50:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Bruce Evans who said > > >Why does the ``libraries'' target in /usr/src/Makefile cleans > >automatically? Sure, you can set NOCLEANDIR but then that turns off > > The libraries might be different if the compiler has changed. The > compiler might change because it's not in lib-tools. > I think perhaps the make world methodology is now largely redundant. In the early days we were so busy fixing bugs in the build tools/libraries/headers that we needed something like this but I'm not sure that's the case now. I think a make bootstrap would be more convenient these days where specific cases for this particular release can be put thus avoiding a lot of rebuilding that's basically unecessary. When was the last time we changed the compiler, or libm or most of the other stuff, doesn't make sense to include it all in the multiple build stages. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 08:57:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA17751 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 08:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (root@haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA17746 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 08:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (root@woodlawn.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.9]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15274; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:56:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (csdayton@localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by woodlawn.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) with ESMTP id KAA01316; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:57:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199605301557.KAA01316@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> In-reply-to: John-Mark Gurney's message of Wed, 29 May 1996 23:25:20 -0700 (PDT) To: John-Mark Gurney cc: FreeBSD Hackers Reply-To: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu References: Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:57:51 CDT From: Soren Dayton Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I am looking for a utility that will be able to search a source file and > it's includes in search of something like a struct of a function > declaration... I'm not sure it such a util exists... if it doesn't I > will write one... but I don't want to re-invent the wheel... (almost said > invent the wheel :) )... thanks for your pointers... TTYL.. how about modifying makedepend(1) to output to an arbitrary file? then you could do things like: ctags -tF `makedepend -output /dev/fd/0 $fil;e | cut -d: -f2-` that would seem to solve your problem. Soren From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 08:57:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA17814 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 08:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inner.cortx.com (root@inner.cortx.com [205.197.61.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA17804 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 08:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from costa@localhost) by inner.cortx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA01141; Thu, 30 May 1996 11:58:36 GMT Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:58:35 +0000 () From: Costa To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: ifconfig Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How many IP addresses (max number) can i bind to my ethernet card for domain aliasing? Thanks, Costa ==================C=O=R=T=E=X==C=O=M=M=U=N=I=C=A=T=I=O=N=S================== Costa J Morris - Partner Full Service Internet Access http://www.cortx.com Interactive CGI Scripting costa@cortx.com Internet Consulting 201-567-2297 Web Design ============================================================================ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 09:26:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21915 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA21897 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04672; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605301624.JAA04672@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Christoph P. Kukulies" cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: newgrp(1) In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 May 96 12:36:13 +0200. <199605301036.MAA20437@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:24:50 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >OSF has it. Is there a chance to get it also for FreeBSD? [...] > newgrp - Changes primary group identification of a shell process [...] > The newgrp command changes the primary group identification of the current > shell process to group. You remain logged in and the current directory is > unchanged, but calculations of access permissions to files are performed > with respect to the primary group ID. This is a SysV-ism. If I'm not mistaken, SysV needs this because you can only be in one group at a time. This means you need to constantly newgrp to change group access permissions if you're moving among multiple groups. BSD allows you to be in multiple groups at the same time, so makes this command pretty much unnecessary. This is how I understand it, anyway. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 09:30:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22808 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22790; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA20839; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:26:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Bruce Evans cc: phk@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Somebody explain this to me again.. :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 May 1996 23:50:55 +1000." <199605301350.XAA23507@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:26:55 -0700 Message-ID: <20836.833473615@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The compiler should probably be in lib-tools. Then to ensure that a > stable version of it gets built, you could blow it away instead of the > libraries. It may take longer to rebuild than the libraries :-]. But it already gets blown away now in the tools target - no big loss so far as I can see! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 09:47:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25451 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25442 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02870; Thu, 30 May 1996 09:46:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven G. Kargl" Message-Id: <199605301646.JAA02870@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Potential f77 bugs To: jonas@mcs.com (Lars Jonas Olsson) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jonas@mcs.net In-Reply-To: from "Lars Jonas Olsson" at May 30, 96 09:12:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Lars Jonas Olsson: > > I do not like the tone of your message. I apologize if I offended you. I pointed out a major problem with the current method of handling Fortran on FreeBSD. I pointed out that I don't know how to fix the current implementation. I have written an alternative solution that does the right thing. I have documented the use of the utility I wrote. I asked you to document your work, and you're offended. There is no way a person can know that "f77 -honorcase" translates to "f2c -U" without looking into the source. And, of all place they need to look, they must find the changes in gcc.c. > > I'm not using Fortran much anyway, so if you think your script is better > I do not object to you commiting it. > > Jonas > It's not a script. It is C. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 10:16:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA29396 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA29389 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA10566; Thu, 30 May 1996 10:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605301715.KAA10566@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Cc: "Christoph P. Kukulies" , freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: newgrp(1) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:15:00 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 May 1996 09:24:50 -0700 "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" wrote: > This is a SysV-ism. If I'm not mistaken, SysV needs this because you > can only be in one group at a time. This means you need to constantly > newgrp to change group access permissions if you're moving among > multiple groups. > > BSD allows you to be in multiple groups at the same time, so makes > this command pretty much unnecessary. > > This is how I understand it, anyway. I'm sure someone will correct me > if I'm wrong... Actually, POSIX requires it, too. I implemented a newgrp(1) almost a year ago for NetBSD, and forwarded it on to JT (so he could play Standards Cop with it). It's been more-or-less put on the shelf because some other things had higher priority. I do plan, however, on committing it to NetBSD very shortly after 1.2 is released. ----save the ancient forests - http://www.bayarea.net/~thorpej/forest/---- Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 11:16:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05797 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 11:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA05778 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 11:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id ab14291; 30 May 96 18:35 +0100 Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa06180; 30 May 96 18:04 +0100 Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA09330; Thu, 30 May 1996 11:48:16 GMT Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:48:16 GMT Message-Id: <199605301148.LAA09330@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: randy@zyzzyva.com CC: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199605291801.NAA13588@sierra.zyzzyva.com> (message from Randy Terbush on Wed, 29 May 1996 13:01:33 -0500) Subject: Re: 8 character login limit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Can anyone shed some light on the reasons for this limit? > After a quick look, it would appear that the only thing that > trips on this limit is 'login'. I have not checked the getpw*() > functions. There are quite a few others - see the recent discussion on -questions on this. > Is it out of the question to remove this restriction? It is if you want people to be able to use NIS! > Comments? It'd be nice if there was an easier way to change it, for people who know what the implications are. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 13:11:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA18273 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18263 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA01033; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:09:54 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id WAA04073; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:10:24 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.7.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id UAA11823; Thu, 30 May 1996 20:33:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199605301833.UAA11823@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: Adduser program in C To: jc@irbs.com (John Capo) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 20:33:04 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: green@fang.cs.sunyit.edu, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605271655.MAA02310@irbs.irbs.com> from John Capo at "May 27, 96 12:55:17 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2043 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that John Capo said: > > 1. domainname returns a non-void value AND > > 2. /var/yp/DOMAINNAME exists AND > > 3. ypserv is running > > > > THEN YP is running and we're on the master ? > > No, you could be on a slave server. I'm not sure how to tell the > difference. rpc.yppasswdd then ? # Start ypserv if we're an NIS server. # Run yppasswdd only on the NIS master server if [ "X${nis_serverflags}" != X"NO" ]; then echo -n ' ypserv'; ypserv ${nis_serverflags} if [ "X${yppasswddflags}" != X"NO" ]; then echo -n ' yppasswdd'; rpc.yppasswdd ${yppasswddflags} fi fi -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #4: Sun May 26 14:34:02 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 13:20:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19573 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA19552 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA17207; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:20:38 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA16211 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Thu, 30 May 1996 22:19:52 +0200 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA30893 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Thu, 30 May 1996 21:39:40 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA08183; Thu, 30 May 1996 21:13:30 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199605301913.VAA08183@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: Re: c source grep To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:13:30 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "John-Mark Gurney" at May 29, 96 11:25:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John-Mark Gurney wrote... > I am looking for a utility that will be able to search a source file and > it's includes in search of something like a struct of a function > declaration... I'm not sure it such a util exists... if it doesn't I > will write one... but I don't want to re-invent the wheel... (almost said > invent the wheel :) )... thanks for your pointers... TTYL.. Sounds a bit like 'cscope'. Is unfortunately licensed AT&T code Wilko _ __________________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 13:22:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19784 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA19775 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pcnet1.pcnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11531; Thu, 30 May 96 16:18:56 EDT Date: Thu, 30 May 96 16:18:56 EDT From: eischen@vigrid.com (Daniel Eischen) Message-Id: <9605302018.AA11531@pcnet1.pcnet.com> To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, michaelv@HeadCandy.com Subject: Re: newgrp(1) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The newgrp command changes the primary group identification of the current > > shell process to group. You remain logged in and the current directory is > > unchanged, but calculations of access permissions to files are performed > > with respect to the primary group ID. > > This is a SysV-ism. If I'm not mistaken, SysV needs this because you > can only be in one group at a time. This means you need to constantly > newgrp to change group access permissions if you're moving among > multiple groups. > > BSD allows you to be in multiple groups at the same time, so makes > this command pretty much unnecessary. > > This is how I understand it, anyway. I'm sure someone will correct me > if I'm wrong... The problem is not when you want to reference files that already exist, but when you want to create files with a specific group so that only others in that group can reference them. We use the newgrp command on our HP systems for various projects with multiple developers. Each project usually usually has at least one group associated with it. By using newgrp before we start any processes that can create files, we're assured that the files have the correct permissions (group). GUI-based systems, like Interleaf, Atria ClearCase, compilers, etc, can then be used to create files with the correct group. This is really important when you're not granted root permissions on the systems; you can't hunt around and manually set the group on all files in the project directory because you don't own them. Unless there's another way of doing this in FreeBSD, I'd like to see the newgrp command brought in. My $.02. Dan Eischen eischen@pcnet.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 13:40:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA22116 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22087 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 13:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA17213; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:21:12 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA16256 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Thu, 30 May 1996 22:20:40 +0200 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA30897 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Thu, 30 May 1996 21:39:43 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA08231; Thu, 30 May 1996 21:17:43 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199605301917.VAA08231@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: Re: vt100/syscons/pcvt To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:17:43 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605292327.TAA13134@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at May 29, 96 07:27:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote... > > > > take in these comparatively early days of GUI technology, so be it - > > > > just consider me 3-4 years ahead of my time on this issue. :-) > > > > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > > > Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced > > Video Option board). > > > > Bzzt. Wrong. The vt100 without AVO would do 14 lines of 132 columns. > Check the vt100 handbook and old termcap (Uniplus SYS III I think sources...) 14 lines is unusable in my book. But you are right. You need the couple of 2114 SRAMs to make the other lines possible. > Bill > ex-DEC Field Circus > Vax and VT100 board shuffler... Oh, the days when 1 kbyte was expensive... Wilko _ __________________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 14:01:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24424 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24353; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA15692; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:00:40 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA17218; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:00:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA22452; Thu, 30 May 1996 21:05:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605301905.VAA22452@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Anyone with an MO drive running -stable? To: stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:05:06 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@interface-business.de (Joerg Wunsch) X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there anybody with an MO drive who's running -stable? I've got a set of patches ready to back-integrate the `od' driver into -stable. I feel confident that this driver qualifies as stable now, and that it doesn't stomp over other's toes, so i would like to commit the changes. Anyway, someone who could actually confirm me that it will work would be appreciated. (Please note the different reply-to.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 14:02:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24553 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24542 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA15817; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:01:32 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA17267; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:01:32 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA23320; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:46:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605302046.WAA23320@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: newgrp(1) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:46:00 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph P. Kukulies) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605301036.MAA20437@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph P. Kukulies" at "May 30, 96 12:36:13 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph P. Kukulies wrote: > > OSF has it. Is there a chance to get it also for FreeBSD? You don't need it. Traditional SysV's used it to switch between groups at all (à la su(1)), since you could only be member of a single group at a time. SVR4 knows about multiple group memberships, so it's only rarely needed there. Anyway, SysV semantics are to create a file with the primary group ownership. BSD semantics is to create a file inheriting the group ownership from the parent directory -- so who cares for the primary group at all? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 14:03:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24782 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24775 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from IMXGATE.COM by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 8669; Thu, 30 May 96 17:02:57 EDT Received: from sv13.cis.squared.com by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 30 May 96 17:02:55 EDT Received: from mg01a.mhs.squared.com by sv13.cis.squared.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30786; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:03:05 -0400 Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by mg01a.mhs.squared.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:02:54 -0400 Message-Id: <26C1775B0187397C@mg01a.mhs.squared.com> Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 17:02:46 -0400 From: "Sexton, Robert" Organization: Square D To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Disktab and SCSI Performance. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, Do the disk parameters in disktab have any meaning? It seems that when we do the mapping from the drive's own private geometry to the scsi block number, we lose the connection with the drives' own performance characteristics. I am specifically wondering about the selection of drive speed, and to what degree the filesystem can use this information. The drive may very well be re-ordering reads and writes, and there is no guarantee that disk block 2001 will be easily reachable after 1998. How many outstanding disk requests are permitted? Thanks, Robert Sexton. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 14:22:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA26878 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.wellfleet.com (lobster.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.253.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA26869 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pobox.BayNetworks.com by lobster.wellfleet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id RAA23265; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:23:50 -0400 Received: from tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com by pobox.BayNetworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05327; Thu, 30 May 96 17:21:39 EDT Received: from localhost.engeast.baynetworks.com (localhost.engeast.baynetworks.com [127.0.0.1]) by tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA10169 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:21:38 -0400 Message-Id: <199605302121.RAA10169@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> X-Authentication-Warning: tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com: Host localhost.engeast.baynetworks.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Is the 3C595 10/100baset card supported in -stable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 17:21:38 -0400 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If so would it be easier to upgrade to stable or to retrofit the driver? -- Robert Withrow -- (+1 508 436 8256) BWithrow@BayNetworks.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 14:26:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA27278 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA27265 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceres.brunel.ac.uk (pp@ceres.brunel.ac.uk [134.83.176.3]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA21267 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:25:56 -0700 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk by ceres.brunel.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 30 May 1996 22:22:31 +0100 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id WAA05703; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:20:37 +0100 (BST) To: Costa cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org From: Gary Palmer Subject: Re: ifconfig In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 May 1996 11:58:35 -0000." Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:20:36 +0100 Message-ID: <5701.833491236@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Costa wrote in message ID : > How many IP addresses (max number) can i bind to my ethernet card for > domain aliasing? The current thinking is, if you have enough memory, the number of aliases you can have is in the region of 2^32. i.e. the complete Internet. I would, however, not recommend this. Mike Smith has tested a machine with approx. 5,000 aliases on it and there were no problems. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 16:02:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11955 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11948 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA24645 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 23:02:07 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma024641; Thu May 30 23:01:46 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA17026 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:01:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 16:01:46 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199605302301.QAA17026@meerkat.mole.org> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: TARGET_NO_FANCY_MATH_387 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Might it be a good thing now to change the default in gcc to enable FP sin, cos and sqrt. '387's have come down a fair amount in price for those of us with trusty '386/16's. Those still dependent upon FP simulation could use -mno-fancy-math-387... and document -mfancy-math-387, -mno-fancy-math-387 in the man page for cc? ;-) -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 16:46:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16805 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni-kl.de (mmdf@stepsun.uni-kl.de [131.246.136.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA16794 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alma.student.uni-kl.de by stepsun.uni-kl.de id aa24296; 31 May 96 1:46 MET DST Received: from mater.student.uni-kl.de by alma.student.uni-kl.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0uPHQ8-0001eDC; Fri, 31 May 96 01:46 CETDST Received: by mater.student.uni-kl.de (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uPHQ8-0001f9C; Fri, 31 May 96 01:46 CETDST Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 01:46:24 +0200 (CETDST) From: Martin Heller To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Has anyone taken a look at the coda file system ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi ! Has anyone looked at the coda file system (CFS) from CMU ? The coda file system is the descendent of the Andrew file system (AFS), seems to be compatible with AFS, a makefile for an NetBSD-i386 client seems to exist and the source code is ftp-able from their ftp for anyone (ftp.cs.cmu.edu) . The cfs server code would probably be the hardest thing to adapt to FreeBSD - it relies on CMU Mach threads - , but the client side seems to be manageable as there is an Makefile for NetBSD . From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 17:43:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22841 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA22824 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA14583; Thu, 30 May 1996 19:43:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 19:43:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Costa cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ifconfig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 May 1996, Costa wrote: > How many IP addresses (max number) can i bind to my ethernet card for > domain aliasing? I got a good way towards a /16, but I killed it before the script could finish. I took to fscking long. :) Answer: As many as you want. In reality, you'll probably need an additional machine for performance reasons before you get much over 1000 aliased addresses. Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 17:49:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA23163 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA23158 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 17:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA14795; Thu, 30 May 1996 19:48:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 19:48:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: "Christoph P. Kukulies" , freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: newgrp(1) In-Reply-To: <199605301624.JAA04672@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 May 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > >OSF has it. Is there a chance to get it also for FreeBSD? > BSD allows you to be in multiple groups at the same time, so makes > this command pretty much unnecessary. [sasami]:/tmp> id winter uid=128(winter) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff) 0(wheel) 120(www) \ 126(ircd) 800(jurai) 801(halo) 803(brmug) 805(bofh) [sasami]:/tmp> touch test [sasami]:/tmp> ls -la test -rw-r--r-- 1 winter nobody 0 May 30 19:46 test [sasami]:/tmp> chgrp jurai test [sasami]:/tmp> ls -la test -rw-r--r-- 1 winter jurai 0 May 30 19:46 test [sasami]:/tmp> chgrp bofh test [sasami]:/tmp> ls -la test -rw-r--r-- 1 winter bofh 0 May 30 19:46 test Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 18:08:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA24996 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 18:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24982 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 18:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA18559; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:58:00 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199605310128.KAA18559@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ifconfig To: costa@inner.cortx.com (Costa) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:57:59 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Costa" at May 30, 96 11:58:35 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (This is the wrong list to ask these sort of questions. You should have mailed questions@freebsd.org) Costa stands accused of saying: > > How many IP addresses (max number) can i bind to my ethernet card for > domain aliasing? Do you mean 'how many can I theoretically bind', or 'how many can I practically bind'? There is no theoretical limit. You could probably bind them all if you were masochistic enough (and had enough memory). I put several thousand on a machine once just to see what happened. It was an intensely boring exercise, but nothing untoward occurred. > Costa J Morris - Partner Full Service Internet Access -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 18:27:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA26635 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 18:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from burka.rdy.com (burka.rdy.com [205.149.163.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA26629 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 18:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dima@localhost by burka.rdy.com id SAA26610; (8.7.5/RDY) Thu, 30 May 1996 18:24:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dima Ruban" Message-Id: <960530182451.ZM26608@burka.rdy.com> Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 18:24:51 -0700 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0b.514 14may96) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: df && du MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey guys! who can explain to me this thingy: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/wd0a 32254 14842 14830 50% / /dev/wd0s1f 579734 453888 79466 85% /usr /dev/wd1s1e 1041790 435880 522566 45% /usr2 /dev/wd0s1e 30206 24720 3068 89% /var procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc and altair# cd /var altair# du -s . 12776 . altair# 12776 (du result) not even close to 24720 (df output) -- dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 18:38:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA27376 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 18:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA27368; Thu, 30 May 1996 18:38:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Pritchard Message-Id: <199605310138.SAA27368@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: df && du To: dima@burka.rdy.com (Dima Ruban) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 18:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <960530182451.ZM26608@burka.rdy.com> from "Dima Ruban" at May 30, 96 06:24:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dima Ruban wrote: > > > Hey guys! > > who can explain to me this thingy: > > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/wd0s1e 30206 24720 3068 89% /var > > and > > altair# cd /var > altair# du -s . > 12776 . > altair# > > 12776 (du result) not even close to 24720 (df output) 12776 * 2 = 25552, which is pretty close. Did you run df with the BLOCKSIZE environment variable set to "K", and du from one without it being set? Try "du -sk" and see if you get something that is close to df's output. -- Mike Pritchard mpp@FreeBSD.org "Go that way. Really fast. If something gets in your way, turn" From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 19:13:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA29638 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 19:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lynx.its.unimelb.edu.au (lynx.its.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.20.151]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA29631 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 19:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by lynx.its.unimelb.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA07450; Fri, 31 May 1996 12:13:39 +1000 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:13:37 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-Reply-To: <199605291750.NAA23605@rk.ios.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996, Rashid Karimov wrote: > > I added an option "noatime" to mount/fstab and implemented a special > > per-mount flag for this in the kernel. I was only interested in disabling > > the access time; I wanted the inode change time and modify times to still > > work correctly. My application, of course, was wcarchive - a machine with > > millions of files that spends about 1/3-1/2 of all of it's disk I/O just > > updating the access times in the inodes. > > > > -DG > > > > David Greenman > > David, could you submit those patches ? May be we can even add > this as an OPTION to the kernel config file? I second this request. It would be very useful for disks dedicated to WWW servers or WWW proxy servers. danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 19:35:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01631 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 19:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil (root@ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil [134.207.10.161]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01599 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 19:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from excalibur.cmf.nrl.navy.mil (excalibur.cmf.nrl.navy.mil [134.207.6.17]) by ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00285; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199605310234.WAA00285@ginger.cmf.nrl.navy.mil> To: Martin Heller cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has anyone taken a look at the coda file system ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 May 1996 01:46:24 +0200." X-Face: "Evs"_GpJ]],xS)b$T2#V&{KfP_i2`TlPrY$Iv9+TQ!6+`~+l)#7I)0xr1>4hfd{#0B4 WIn3jU;bql;{2Uq%zw5bF4?%F&&j8@KaT?#vBGk}u07<+6/`.F-3_GA@6Bq5gN9\+s;_d gD\SW #]iN_U0 KUmOR.P<|um5yPkEpSD@*e` Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:34:29 -0400 From: Ken Hornstein Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Has anyone looked at the coda file system (CFS) from CMU ? >The coda file system is the descendent of the Andrew file system (AFS), >seems to be compatible with AFS, a makefile for an NetBSD-i386 client seems >to exist and the source code is ftp-able from their ftp for anyone >(ftp.cs.cmu.edu) . I looked at coda not too long ago. It has it's advantages (one big one being that it was free), but the disadvantages were: - Wasn't compatible with AFS at all (clients could coexist on the same box, but the two couldn't talk to each other). - Documentation was rather sparse - Didn't use Kerberos for authentication - Didn't do some of the cooler things that AFS can do (like moving volumes on the fly, etc). It's definately worth looking at it, but since you need a server as well as a client to test it out, I think you have a lot of work ahead of you :-) --Ken From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu May 30 21:19:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA08673 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 30 May 1996 21:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA08668 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 21:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA11098 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 21:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Prev-Resent: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:19:07 -0700 Prev-Resent: "hackers@freebsd.org " Received: from platinum.com (gateway.platinum.com [206.214.170.2]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA22999 for ; Thu, 30 May 1996 14:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.platinum.com ([172.17.26.25]) by gateway.platinum.com with ESMTP id <18549-3>; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:09:51 -0500 Received: from bigbert.vt.platinum.com by mailhub.platinum.com (8.7.4/) id QAA11237; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:09:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from doh.vt.platinum.com by bigbert.vt.platinum.com (8.7.3/NX3.0S) id QAA10692; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:12:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Brent J. Nordquist" Received: by doh.vt.platinum.com (8.6.12) id QAA26785; Thu, 30 May 1996 16:07:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199605302107.QAA26785@doh.vt.platinum.com> Subject: Re: Object files/formats To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 16:07:01 -0500 Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <14584.831814161@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at May 11, 96 06:29:21 am Reply-to: nordquist@platinum.com (Brent J. Nordquist) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-To: hackers@freebsd.org Resent-Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:19:08 -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <11096.833516348@time.cdrom.com> Resent-From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Jordan: I know you're pretty busy today! I'm not sure if you're the right person to deliver this to; if it's someone else, I'd appreciate it if you would pass this on. The patch enclosed is to fix the magic problem for objects and executables. Comments?] THE TASK There are at least two problems with file's identification of FreeBSD objects and executables. The first one was reported in freebsd-ports: Chuck Robey said: | I am working on trying to get tcl to load an object file, and I just | noticed that the file command is returning: | | tclIO.o: NetBSD/i386 position independent object file not stripped "Jordan K. Hubbard" replied: | They all say that. File's magic information has misidentified our | object files for as long as I can remember now - I noted this quite | a few months back myself, but so far nobody has done the hacking on | /etc/magic necessary to fix it. :) The second one is that some object files report "PDP-11 executable". I wanted to fix the portions of the magic file relevant to FreeBSD so objects and executables would be correctly identified. CONTEXT I have a 2.1-stable sup'ed on May 5. The freebsd magic subfile I started with is version 1.1.6.2. (NOTE that according to the check-in comments, the -current version is different, because of the core file format.) WHAT I DID (1) I tried to carefully follow the structure of the a.out format, as laid out in . In particular, the freebsd magic subfile now uses the proper masks to get the magic, middle, and flag components. (2) It seems that the 134 value for the middle component (platform) is used for all the BSD/i386 platforms, including at least FreeBSD and NetBSD. As a result, the freebsd magic subfile now prints "BSD/i386", not "FreeBSD/i386", because it looks to me like you can't tell. (If someone who knows more about this knows how to tell them apart, by all means let's put in some more sub-rules.) (3) Some of the object files produced by the compiler have the right magic number, but oddly enough, in big-endian order. The netbsd magic subfile is smart enough to handle this, by repeating all the sections, changing lelong to belong, etc.. That's why some of our object files were being labeled as "NetBSD/i386 object file", the original issue that got me interested in this. I adopted this technique in the freebsd file. (4) I removed the lines commented with: # This covers object files, and is better than "PDP-11 executable" because they were never triggered, and were thus superfluous. (This was because the whole long was being checked, rather than just the magic part: the low 16 bits.) This is why our object files with the 0407 magic were still being labeled as "PDP-11 executable". TESTING I rebuilt the full magic file and tested it on all the object files (.o, .so, and .po) under /usr/obj, plus all the files in /usr/bin and /usr/lib. I assembled representative sample files, and compared file's output to that of the hexdump command. It looks to me like file is now producing the correct output. OBSERVATIONS (1) The old freebsd magic subfile used the entry point (long #6 at offset 20) to decide object file (less than 4k) vs. executable (4k and greater). I don't understand enough about the a.out format to know if this is rock-solid, or just a best-guess. I incorporated that logic into the new change. (2) The -current subfile is apparently different because of the core file format. The equivalent change will have to be made to the -current version. (3) At some point, someone should probably coordinate with the keepers of the magic subfiles (as documented in the README) to incorporate these changes. They will have to deal with the fact that the freebsd, netbsd, and linux magic subfiles all seem to lay claim to the same object format. My feeling is that common BSD/i386 formats that you can't tell apart should be merged together into one file, and be reported generically as "BSD/i386". CONTEXT DIFF FROM OLD SUBFILE (81 lines) begin 644 freebsd.diff M*BHJ(&9R965B2`S,"`Q,#HU-3HU,B`Q.3DV"BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ M*BHJ*@HJ*BH@,2PQ."`J*BHJ"B$@(R!T:&4@9F]L;&]W:6YG(&%R92!F;W(@ M,S@V0E-$+T9R965"4T0*("`*(2`P"6QE;&]N9PD)"3`T,3`)"7!U71E"0D))C!X.#`*(2`^/C(P"6QE M;&]N9PD)"3PT,#DV"0ES:&%R960@;&EB0HA(#X^,C`);&5L;VYG"0D) M/30P.38)"61Y;F%M:6-A;&QY(&QI;FME9"!E>&5C=71A8FQE"B$@/CXR,`EL M96QO;F<)"0D^-#`Y-@D)9'EN86UI8V%L;'D@;&EN:V5D(&5X96-U=&%B;&4* M(2`^,PEB>71E"0D)7C!X.#`)"65X96-U=&%B;&4*("`^,38);&5L;VYG"0D) M/C`)"6YO="!S=')I<'!E9`H@(`HA(",@5&AI&5C=71A8FQE(@HA M(#`);&5L;VYG"0D),#`P,#`P-#`W"6EM<'5R92!F;W)M870*("`^,38);&5L M;VYG"0D)/C`)"6YO="!S=')I<'!E9`H@(`H@(",@6%A8(&=R;W-S(&AA8VL@ M=&\@:61E;G1I9GD@8V]R92!F:6QE71E M)C!X0S`)"3!X,#`)"6]B:F5C=`HA(#XR,`EL96QO;F<)"0D^-#`Y-0HA(#X^ M,PEB>71E)C!X.#`)"3!X.#`)"61Y;F%M:6-A;&QY(&QI;FME9"!E>&5C=71A M8FQE"B$@/CXS"6)Y=&4F,'@X,`D),'@P,`D)97AE8W5T86)L90H@(#XQ-@EL M96QO;F<)"0D^,`D);F]T('-T71E)C!X0S`)"28P>#@P"0ES:&%R960@;&EB0HA M(#X^,PEB>71E)C!X0S`)"3!X-#`)"5!)0R!O8FIE8W0*(2`^/C,)8GET928P M>$,P"0DP>#`P"0EO8FIE8W0*(2`^,C`);&5L;VYG"0D)/C0P.34*(2`^/C,) M8GET928P>#@P"0DP>#@P"0ED>6YA;6EC86QL>2!L:6YK960@97AE8W5T86)L M90HA(#X^,PEB>71E)C!X.#`)"3!X,#`)"65X96-U=&%B;&4*("`^,38);&5L M;VYG"0D)/C`)"6YO="!S=')I<'!E9`HK(`HK(#`);&5L;VYG)C`S-S71E)C!X0S`)"28P>#@P"0ES:&%R960@;&EB M0HK(#X^,PEB>71E)C!X0S`)"3!X-#`)"5!)0R!O8FIE8W0**R`^/C,) M8GET928P>$,P"0DP>#`P"0EO8FIE8W0**R`^,C`);&5L;VYG"0D)/C0P.34* M*R`^/C,)8GET928P>#@P"0DP>#@P"0ED>6YA;6EC86QL>2!L:6YK960@97AE M8W5T86)L90HK(#X^,PEB>71E)C!X.#`)"3!X,#`)"65X96-U=&%B;&4**R`^ M,38);&5L;VYG"0D)/C`)"6YO="!S=')I<'!E9`HK(`HK(#`);&5L;VYG)C`S M-S71E)C!X0S`)"3!X,#`)"6]B:F5C=`HK(#XR,`EL M96QO;F<)"0D^-#`Y-0HK(#X^,PEB>71E)C!X.#`)"3!X.#`)"61Y;F%M:6-A M;&QY(&QI;FME9"!E>&5C=71A8FQE"BL@/CXS"6)Y=&4F,'@X,`D),'@P,`D) M97AE8W5T86)L90HK(#XQ-@EL96QO;F<)"0D^,`D);F]T('-T$,P"0DF,'@X,`D)$,P"0DP>#0P"0E024,@;V)J96-T M"BL@/CXP"6)Y=&4F,'A#,`D),'@P,`D);V)J96-T"BL@/C(P"6)E;&]N9PD) M"3XT,#DU"BL@/CXP"6)Y=&4F,'@X,`D),'@X,`D)9'EN86UI8V%L;'D@;&EN M:V5D(&5X96-U=&%B;&4**R`^/C`)8GET928P>#@P"0DP>#`P"0EE>&5C=71A M8FQE"BL@/C$V"6)E;&]N9PD)"3XP"0EN;W0@71E)C!X0S`)"3!X,#`)"6]B:F5C=`HK(#XR,`EB96QO;F<)"0D^ M-#`Y-0HK(#X^,`EB>71E)C!X.#`)"3!X.#`)"61Y;F%M:6-A;&QY(&QI;FME M9"!E>&5C=71A8FQE"BL@/CXP"6)Y=&4F,'@X,`D),'@P,`D)97AE8W5T86)L M90HK(#XQ-@EB96QO;F<)"0D^,`D);F]T('-T71E)C!X0S`)"3!X,#`)"6]B:F5C=`HK(#XR,`EB96QO M;F<)"0D^-#`Y-0HK(#X^,`EB>71E)C!X.#`)"3!X.#`)"61Y;F%M:6-A;&QY M(&QI;FME9"!E>&5C=71A8FQE"BL@/CXP"6)Y=&4F,'@X,`D),'@P,`D)97AE M8W5T86)L90HK(#XQ-@EB96QO;F<)"0D^,`D);F]T('-T$,P"0DF,'@X,`D)$,P M"0DP>#0P"0E024,@;V)J96-T"BL@/CXP"6)Y=&4F,'A#,`D),'@P,`D);V)J M96-T"BL@/C(P"6)E;&]N9PD)"3XT,#DU"BL@/CXP"6)Y=&4F,'@X,`D),'@X M,`D)9'EN86UI8V%L;'D@;&EN:V5D(&5X96-U=&%B;&4**R`^/C`)8GET928P M>#@P"0DP>#`P"0EE>&5C=71A8FQE"BL@/C$V"6)E;&]N9PD)"3XP"0EN;W0@ M; Thu, 30 May 1996 22:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by lynx.its.unimelb.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA07721; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:01:41 +1000 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 15:01:41 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Ade Barkah cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: panic: rtfree In-Reply-To: <199605292255.QAA04634@hemi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 May 1996, Ade Barkah wrote: > Well, one of our machines hit a 'panic:rtfree' a few minutes ago. > Unfortunately kern.dumpdev was set to "disabled" (argh). The machine > is running 2.1-R. I glanced at rtfree() in /usr/src/sys/net/route.c, > but of course not having a stack trace (plus my lack of knowledge) > didn't get me anywhere. > > A few minutes prior to the crash, the following was also logged: > > /kernel: arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo > > (repeated various times.) The kernel has NMBCLUSTERS at 2048, > if that matters (which is ironically smaller than the default, > since we have maxusers=128.) Sorry I don't have much more in- > formation. =-( > > Thanks in advance for any hint which could shed some light > of what actually happened. I had this happen repeatedly on a 2.0.5-R box when removing routes which are not in the routing table. Try while true do route delete default sleep 15 done and it will probably crash the system as described above within an hour. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 00:22:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24406 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 00:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA24400 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 00:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) pid 4231 for hackers@freebsd.org; id JAA04231; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:22:04 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nietzsche.bowtie.nl (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA01146 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 08:33:28 +0200 Message-Id: <199605310633.IAA01146@nietzsche.bowtie.nl> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.1 5/23/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Problems with serial port Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 08:33:28 +0200 From: Marc van Kempen Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm having a problem with sendfax (from mgetty 0.99) hanging in a ttywait (used ps auxl). This seems to happen to me after the machine has been up for a longer period (19 days in this case, it also happened a while back. The machine had been up for a similar period). I don't seem to able to get out of it, short of rebooting. This is on a -stable kernel from a while back, rest is 2.1. Is there any other solution to remove the proces and free the serial port, other than rebooting and is this perhaps a hardware problem? (Whenever I reboot, the problem is immediately gone.) Regards, Marc. ---------------------------------------------------- Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65 fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl ---------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 01:28:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA28441 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 01:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.siemens.at (proxy.siemens.at [192.138.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA28412 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 01:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol1.gud.siemens.co.at (sol-f.gud.siemens-austria) by proxy.siemens.at with SMTP id AA04413 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 31 May 1996 10:27:45 +0200 Received: from ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at by sol1.gud.siemens.co.at with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7 for ) id m0uPPYe-00020IC; Fri, 31 May 96 10:27 MET DST Received: by ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at (1.37.109.16/1.37) id AA057601049; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:24:09 +0200 From: "Hr.Ladavac" Message-Id: <199605310824.AA057601049@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at> Subject: Re: c source grep To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:24:09 +0200 (MESZ) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605301913.VAA08183@yedi.iaf.nl> from "Wilko Bulte" at May 30, 96 09:13:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In his e-mail Wilko Bulte wrote: > As John-Mark Gurney wrote... > > > I am looking for a utility that will be able to search a source file and > > it's includes in search of something like a struct of a function > > declaration... I'm not sure it such a util exists... if it doesn't I > > will write one... but I don't want to re-invent the wheel... (almost said > > invent the wheel :) )... thanks for your pointers... TTYL.. > > Sounds a bit like 'cscope'. Is unfortunately licensed AT&T code According to Keith Bostic: Cscope Availability: UNIXWare System V Release 4.0 variants such as Sun Solaris 2.x (/opt/SUNWspro/bin) have version 11.5, and UNIXWare System V Release 4.1 has version 12.10 with an option for much faster searching. You can buy version 13.3 source with an unrestricted license for $400 from AT&T Software Solutions by calling +1-800-462-8146. Binary redistribution of cscope is an additional $1500. A bit stiff, but worth it. Keith has included support for cscope tags into his newer versions of nvi. BTW, nvi is approaching a new release; I've been testing it and it seems fine. /Marino > > Wilko > _ __________________________________________________________________________ > | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl > |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 02:34:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA02207 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 02:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itesec.hsc.fr (root@itesec.hsc.fr [192.70.106.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA02199; Fri, 31 May 1996 02:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tetard.hsc.fr (tetard.hsc.fr [192.70.106.43]) by itesec.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/itesec-1.8) with ESMTP id LAA25929; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:34:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by tetard.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/tetard-uucp-2.8) id LAA01665; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:33:58 +0200 (MET DST) From: Philippe Regnauld Message-Id: <199605310933.LAA01665@tetard.hsc.fr> Subject: Re: df && du To: mpp@freefall.freebsd.org (Mike Pritchard) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:33:58 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (hackers) In-Reply-To: <199605310138.SAA27368@freefall.freebsd.org> from Mike Pritchard at "May 30, 96 06:38:02 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Pritchard écrit / writes: > > /dev/wd0s1e 30206 24720 3068 89% /var > > > > altair# cd /var > > altair# du -s . > > 12776 . > > altair# > > > > 12776 (du result) not even close to 24720 (df output) > > 12776 * 2 = 25552, which is pretty close. Did you run df with the > BLOCKSIZE environment variable set to "K", and du from > one without it being set? > > Try "du -sk" and see if you get something that is close to df's output. Anyway, I think du is broken in most of its implementation; it seems to have serious problems with links and such. A friend of mine's written a realdu utility some time ago, on SunOS 4.1.2 -- it also works on 2.1.0. I think it also supports the standard options (for scripts who rely on it). But it's a bit slower in 'real' mode. Anyone interested? -- Phil -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Philippe Regnauld |_______Herve Schauer Consultants_______| regnauld@hsc.fr | +-------------------+FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations+-----------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 03:19:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA03698 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sivka.rdy.com (sivka.rdy.com [205.149.182.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA03693; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dima@localhost by sivka.rdy.com id DAA06001; (8.7/RDY) Fri, 31 May 1996 03:16:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dima Ruban" Message-Id: <960531031628.ZM5998@sivka.rdy.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 03:16:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: Philippe Regnauld "Re: df && du" (May 31, 11:33am) References: <199605310933.LAA01665@tetard.hsc.fr> Organization: HackerDome, Inc. X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0b.514 14may96) To: Philippe Regnauld , mpp@freefall.freebsd.org (Mike Pritchard) Subject: Re: df && du Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (hackers) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On May 31, 11:33am, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > Subject: Re: df && du > Mike Pritchard =E9crit / writes: > > > /dev/wd0s1e 30206 24720 3068 89% /var > > > > > > altair# cd /var > > > altair# du -s . > > > 12776 . > > > altair# > > > > > > 12776 (du result) not even close to 24720 (df output) > > > > 12776 * 2 =3D 25552, which is pretty close. Did you run df with the > > BLOCKSIZE environment variable set to "K", and du from > > one without it being set? > > > > Try "du -sk" and see if you get something that is close to df's outpu= t. > > Anyway, I think du is broken in most of its implementation; > it seems to have serious problems with links and such. I didn't mean, that `du' is broken ... Looks like something (wu-ftpd or apache) keeps open files or something ... It looks like it, becaus problem fixes itself after rebooting. > > A friend of mine's written a realdu utility some time ago, > on SunOS 4.1.2 -- it also works on 2.1.0. I think it also > supports the standard options (for scripts who rely on it). > > But it's a bit slower in 'real' mode. > > Anyone interested? > > -- Phil > > > -- > +-------------------+---------------------------------------+----------= -------+ > | Philippe Regnauld |_______Herve Schauer Consultants_______| regnauld@= hsc.fr | > +-------------------+FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations+-----------------+ > > > >-- End of excerpt from Philippe Regnauld -- = -- dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 03:34:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA04296 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nda.nda.com (fw1.NDA.COM [204.57.47.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA04289 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (kevin@localhost) by nda.nda.com (8.7.4/8.6.4) id GAA05588; Fri, 31 May 1996 06:31:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin Lyda Message-Id: <199605311031.GAA05588@nda.nda.com> Subject: Re: newgrp(1) To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 06:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at May 30, 96 07:48:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [sasami]:/tmp> id winter > uid=128(winter) gid=20(staff) groups=20(staff) 0(wheel) 120(www) \ > 126(ircd) 800(jurai) 801(halo) 803(brmug) 805(bofh) > [sasami]:/tmp> touch test > [sasami]:/tmp> ls -la test > -rw-r--r-- 1 winter nobody 0 May 30 19:46 test > [sasami]:/tmp> chgrp jurai test > [sasami]:/tmp> ls -la test > -rw-r--r-- 1 winter jurai 0 May 30 19:46 test > [sasami]:/tmp> chgrp bofh test > [sasami]:/tmp> ls -la test > -rw-r--r-- 1 winter bofh 0 May 30 19:46 test i'm not sure what this proves. anyway, a newgrp command might be useful in terms of file creation. if you had a group of users that all shared membership in group foo, a single newgrp at the start of the day would help avoid access denied issues. kevin From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 03:52:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA04924 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA04909 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA00009; Fri, 31 May 1996 20:46:10 +1000 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 20:46:10 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605311046.UAA00009@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: newgrp(1) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >needed there. Anyway, SysV semantics are to create a file with the >primary group ownership. BSD semantics is to create a file inheriting >the group ownership from the parent directory -- so who cares for the >primary group at all? Programs that create temporary files in $TMPDIR (usually with the wrong group) and move the result to a file in another file system. If the program is run by root, then the result ends up with the wrong group ownership. Otherwise the chown to set the group fails and the result ends up with the right ownership. An annoying warning message if printed about the failure if the program isn't sloppy. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 04:19:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07195 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 04:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fire.dkrz.de (fire.dkrz.de [136.172.110.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07188 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 04:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from racer.dkrz.de (racer.dkrz.de [136.172.110.55]) by fire.dkrz.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10983; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:18:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from gwk@localhost) by racer.dkrz.de (8.7.4/8.7.3) id NAA20060; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:17:44 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:17:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199605311117.NAA20060@racer.dkrz.de> From: "Georg-W. Koltermann" To: eischen@vigrid.com CC: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, michaelv@HeadCandy.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: <9605302018.AA11531@pcnet1.pcnet.com> (eischen@vigrid.com) Subject: Re: newgrp(1) X-Attribution: gwk Reply-to: gwk@cray.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Daniel" == Daniel Eischen writes: Daniel> Daniel> The problem is not when you want to reference files that Daniel> already exist, but when you want to create files with a Daniel> specific group so that only others in that group can Daniel> reference them. Daniel> Daniel> We use the newgrp command on our HP systems for various Daniel> projects with multiple developers. Each project usually Daniel> usually has at least one group associated with it. By Daniel> using newgrp before we start any processes that can create Daniel> files, we're assured that the files have the correct Daniel> permissions (group). GUI-based systems, like Interleaf, Daniel> Atria ClearCase, compilers, etc, can then be used to Daniel> create files with the correct group. This is really Daniel> important when you're not granted root permissions on the Daniel> systems; you can't hunt around and manually set the group Daniel> on all files in the project directory because you don't Daniel> own them. Daniel> Daniel> Unless there's another way of doing this in FreeBSD, I'd Daniel> like to see the newgrp command brought in. My $.02. Daniel> Daniel> Dan Eischen eischen@pcnet.com Daniel> This is BSD. New files inherit the group OF THE DIRECTORY WHERE THEY ARE CREATED [as long as the group of that directory is in the authorized group list of the creating process]. To the contrary, on SysV new files inherit the primary group of the creating process. I would still believe that you don't need newgrp(1). Georg-W. Koltermann, gwk@cray.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 04:44:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA08030 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 04:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA08025 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 04:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA03022; Fri, 31 May 1996 07:43:17 -0400 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 07:43:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Martin Heller cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Has anyone taken a look at the coda file system ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The cfs server code would probably be the hardest > thing to adapt to FreeBSD - it relies on CMU Mach threads Sorry, do you mean kernel threads or is it a user-mode server? thanks ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 06:45:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA12860 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 06:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA12852 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 06:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA04373 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 31 May 1996 23:45:29 +1000 From: David Dawes Message-Id: <199605311345.XAA04373@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Subject: XFree86 Trio64V+ lockup with AHA-2940 To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 23:45:29 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I recall that some time ago there was a report here of machine lockup when starting the XFree86 S3 server with at Trio64V+ PCI card in a machine with an AHA-2940. I vaguely recall a comment from someone saying it might have been related to a problem with the 2940 driver. Does anyone have any further information on this? I'm asking because we (XFree86) have been getting quite a few reports of this type, and the 2940 seems to be the common factor. We've had reports for both FreeBSD and Linux. We've also found that if there is no (or minimal) disk activity during the server startup, then there is no problem (a typical way of ensuring this is to do 'cat /usr/X11R6/bin/XF86_S3 > /dev/null' before starting the server). David From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 07:35:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA15602 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA15594 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 07:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uPVGc-000QZHC; Fri, 31 May 96 16:33 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA26369 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:42:43 +0200 Message-Id: <199605311242.OAA26369@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Mustek/Paragon 6000CX scanner: Any help with SCSI ioctls? To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:42:43 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been lent a Mustek/Paragon 6000CX scanner, which has a SCSI interface. This is a really cheap machine: the person who lent it to me paid DM 399 (about $260) for it, and it claims to offer 300x600 in 24 bit colour. If it works, it could be quite interesting. Somebody recently posted a message about a driver for this device, and I went and got hold of the sources. Unfortunately, the driver is only for BSD/OS 2.0 and Linux, is undocumented, and doesn't work on BSD/OS 2.1. Since I don't want to have my BSD/OS machine down for days, I decided to port the software to FreeBSD-current. Unfortunately, I'm up against documentation problems on two fronts: on the one hand, the software isn't documented, on the other hand the man pages scsi([34]) leave a lot to the imagination. I can probably fight my way through (*and* I'm prepared to fix the man pages), but if somebody has anything else they can point me to, I'd be very grateful. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 08:01:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA17366 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 08:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA17336 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 08:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id MAA08756; Fri, 31 May 1996 12:11:28 +0100 (BST) To: Kevin Lyda cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: newgrp(1) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 May 1996 06:31:03 EDT." <199605311031.GAA05588@nda.nda.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:11:27 +0100 Message-ID: <8754.833541087@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [CC: List trimmed. People, please try to keep that in mind ... ] Kevin Lyda wrote in message ID <199605311031.GAA05588@nda.nda.com>: > i'm not sure what this proves. anyway, a newgrp command might be useful > in terms of file creation. if you had a group of users that all shared > membership in group foo, a single newgrp at the start of the day > would help avoid access denied issues. Umm. Not really. You just do the work in a directory which is group writable and owned byt he group, and the group (assuming your umask is set right) will be able to work away to their hearts content. E.g.: gary@palmer:~> ls -algod . drwxrwxr-x 22 gary gary - 1536 May 31 01:58 . gary@palmer:~> touch test gary@palmer:~> ls -algo test -rw-rw-r-- 1 gary gary - 0 May 31 12:02 test gary@palmer:~> cd /home/group gary@palmer:/home/group> ls -algod . drwxrwxr-x 2 root staff - 512 May 31 12:02 . gary@palmer:/home/group> touch work.c gary@palmer:/home/group> ls -algo work.c -rw-rw-r-- 1 gary staff - 0 May 31 12:03 work.c ^^^^^ So if other ``staff'' wanted to edit the file, they could. And they would pick up the same group ownership from the directory that I did... It makes it a lot simpler than the Sys V model as you don't have to remember to newgrp before switching to another project, you just `cd' into the new work area and go. Because of the different inheritance semantics between *BSD and SYS V, I think a newgrp command would be basically useless without breaking a lot of existing installations by changing the inheritance system. Since we are NOT trying to be SYS V, we are trying to be a stable system which doesn't go switching things around without good reason, I don't think a move to SYS V semantics is likely... Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 08:16:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18034 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 08:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18027 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 08:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA09743; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:08:37 +1000 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:08:37 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605311508.BAA09743@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG Subject: Re: TARGET_NO_FANCY_MATH_387 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Might it be a good thing now to change the default in gcc to enable >FP sin, cos and sqrt. It would only give the inline sqrt. The inline sin and cos are disabled in the FSF version of gcc-2.6.3 for other reasons. At least the i386 versions of them were broken. You can use -mfancy-math-387 to get the inline sqrt and -ffast-math to get the inline sin and cos together with other fast and broken "math", or you can use inline assembler to get inline math functions exactly where you want, or you can use the i387 version of libm to get non-inline hardware math functions in more cases. >'387's have come down a fair amount in price >for those of us with trusty '386/16's. Those still dependent upon >FP simulation could use -mno-fancy-math-387... The price of an i386 sqrt() emulation (in milliPentiums :-) has gone up. Those dependent on FP emulation would probably have difficulty bootstrapping to use it. At least the following utilities use sqrt(), so they might fail when their inline sqrt() doesn't work: as, awk, bc, cc1, cc1plus, dc, gdb, groff (parts), perl. >and document >-mfancy-math-387, -mno-fancy-math-387 in the man page for cc? ;-) They have been documented for 5 months in -current, and the changes were merged into -stable a couple of days ago. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 08:27:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18591 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 08:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from novell.com (sjf-ums.sjf.novell.com [130.57.10.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18578 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 08:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by fromGW with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 31 May 1996 08:24:20 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 08:33:59 -0700 From: DARREND@novell.com (Darren Davis) To: hackers@freebsd.org, mheller@student.uni-kl.de Subject: Has anyone taken a look at the coda file system ? - Reply Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yea, actually I have the source here on my FreeBSD system and have spent a little time tinkering with it. I also have it running on my Mach system. If I had more time I would do a full scale asault on it for FreeBSD! The thread problem has struck me as well (Hey, remember when I asked for a threads package?) Novell has some interest in Coda, checkout the CMU copyright. :-) Now that I have tipped my hat! Darren R. Davis Senior Software Engineer Novell, Inc. >>> Martin Heller 5/30 5:46pm >>> Hi ! Has anyone looked at the coda file system (CFS) from CMU ? The coda file system is the descendent of the Andrew file system (AFS), seems to be compatible with AFS, a makefile for an NetBSD-i386 client seems to exist and the source code is ftp-able from their ftp for anyone (ftp.cs.cmu.edu) . The cfs server code would probably be the hardest thing to adapt to FreeBSD - it relies on CMU Mach threads - , but the client side seems to be manageable as there is an Makefile for NetBSD . From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 09:05:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA20899 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA20894 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA11037; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:57:14 +1000 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:57:14 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605311557.BAA11037@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com Subject: Re: Disktab and SCSI Performance. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Do the disk parameters in disktab have any meaning? It seems that when For some disks. >we do the mapping from the drive's own private geometry to the scsi block >number, we lose the connection with the drives' own performance >characteristics. I am specifically wondering about the selection of Usually not for SCSI disks. It wouldn't hurt to make the disktab geometry match the actual geometry (if any) for the most active part of the disk. >drive speed, and to what degree the filesystem can use this information. The default newfs parameters are chosen to inhibit the parts of ffs that use this info: -d 0 Rotdelay is only useful for slow disks. All small nonzero rotdelays are equivalent to skipping every second block, i.e., to using an interleave of 2 for blocks. This is in addition to any hardware interleave, and has much the same disaadvantages as hardware interleave: an interleave of N reduces the best-case performance by a factor of N. Disks with their Iown read _and_ write buffering don't need to be interleaved at the block level. For disks with read but not write buffering, you can use -d 0 to get the best possible read performance but abysmal write performance, or -d 4 to get medicocre performance for both read and write. -n 1 This value essentially disables the rotational position table. I think the interleave, rpm and track skew parameters are only used to construct this table, so this option makes them irrelevant. The cylinder skew parameter is never used. -t 1 -u 4096 (one track/cylinder, 4096 sectors/track) This limits the damage from any "optimizations" that weren't stopped by `-d 0 -n 1' to 4096-sector boundaries. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 09:13:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21340 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA21324 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA03669; Fri, 31 May 1996 16:13:03 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma003663; Fri May 31 16:12:35 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA21266; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:12:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:12:35 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199605311612.JAA21266@meerkat.mole.org> To: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG Subject: Re: TARGET_NO_FANCY_MATH_387 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Might it be a good thing now to change the default in gcc to enable > >FP sin, cos and sqrt. > > It would only give the inline sqrt. The inline sin and cos are disabled > in the FSF version of gcc-2.6.3 for other reasons. At least the i386 > versions of them were broken. You can use -mfancy-math-387 to get the > inline sqrt and -ffast-math to get the inline sin and cos together with > other fast and broken "math", or you can use inline assembler to get > inline math functions exactly where you want, or you can use the i387 > version of libm to get non-inline hardware math functions in more cases. Agreed. I was suggesting a change in default behavior. > > >'387's have come down a fair amount in price > >for those of us with trusty '386/16's. Those still dependent upon > >FP simulation could use -mno-fancy-math-387... > > The price of an i386 sqrt() emulation (in milliPentiums :-) has gone > up. Those dependent on FP emulation would probably have difficulty > bootstrapping to use it. At least the following utilities use sqrt(), > so they might fail when their inline sqrt() doesn't work: as, awk, bc, > cc1, cc1plus, dc, gdb, groff (parts), perl. And your last sentence says why it's not a Good Idea to change the default behavior. Also agreed, and I withdraw the suggestion. Too bad, though. And I expect that just adding the same (no, similar, not the same, no GPL, no LGPL, I'm sorry) non-optimized software sqrt, sin, cos that are in the normal libm to the emulator would be not so good. Or maybe it would be good? Then changing the default might be a Good Idea. I'll restate the suggestion. Otherwise I guess it's a manual edit of the definitions and a make world. Or make the make world have a way to set the definitions in conjunction with the bsd.h file deep in gcc's bowels. Nahh, too kludgy. Now for the cheap-shot, flame-bait, no-good comment: the reason that this came to my attention at all was to figure why a program ran so much faster on ... Linux. Ayeeee. Yeah, I know which FPE they use :-) And with the switches to the compiler set "right", the program ran the same speed on the same hardware independent of OS. Not unexpected. > > >and document > >-mfancy-math-387, -mno-fancy-math-387 in the man page for cc? ;-) > > They have been documented for 5 months in -current, and the changes were > merged into -stable a couple of days ago. > Prescient. :-) -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 09:28:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22077 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22069 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA03760; Fri, 31 May 1996 16:28:03 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma003758; Fri May 31 16:27:51 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA21316; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:27:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:27:51 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199605311627.JAA21316@meerkat.mole.org> To: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com Subject: Re: Disktab and SCSI Performance. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > -d 0 > Rotdelay is only useful for slow disks. All small nonzero rotdelays are > equivalent to skipping every second block, i.e., to using an interleave > of 2 for blocks. This is in addition to any hardware interleave, and has > much the same disaadvantages as hardware interleave: an interleave of N > reduces the best-case performance by a factor of N. Disks with their > Iown read _and_ write buffering don't need to be interleaved at the block > level. For disks with read but not write buffering, you can use -d 0 > to get the best possible read performance but abysmal write performance, > or -d 4 to get medicocre performance for both read and write. > Rotdelay and/or artificially increased interleave can be useful for fast disks, too. It can be used to prevent a fast drive on a non-dma controller from starving the CPU to the exclusion of user programs. Sometimes slowing disk I/O can be an advantage. From experience :-) -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 09:28:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22106 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22101 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA04597; Fri, 31 May 1996 12:27:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:27:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: coda questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk what degree of threading does it have? thread per remote computer enough threads to support demand thread per exported object ... and again, are tehse user-level threads (seems so). Reason for asking: depending on how much threading, rfork() may do the job. ron Ron Minnich |"Inferno runs on MIPS ..., Intel ..., and AMD's rminnich@sarnoff.com |29-kilobit-per-second chip-based architectures ..." (609)-734-3120 | Comm. week, may 13, pg. 4. ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 09:45:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22951 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22944 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 09:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA12346; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 02:39:59 +1000 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 02:39:59 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605311639.CAA12346@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com Subject: Re: Disktab and SCSI Performance. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Rotdelay and/or artificially increased interleave can be useful for >fast disks, too. It can be used to prevent a fast drive on a non-dma >controller from starving the CPU to the exclusion of user programs. >Sometimes slowing disk I/O can be an advantage. From experience :-) Can it be used to prevent fast ID drives from starving the CPU to the exclusion of kernel code? :-) Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 10:24:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25122 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gandalf.me.ksu.edu (joed@gandalf.me.ksu.edu [129.130.41.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25112 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from joed@localhost) by gandalf.me.ksu.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA03195 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 31 May 1996 12:24:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Diehl Message-Id: <199605311724.MAA03195@gandalf.me.ksu.edu> Subject: ix0 problems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:24:06 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, Everytime I boot my FreeBSD machine, I receive the following errors: May 31 12:14:54 marvin /kernel: iscp->busy time out May 31 12:14:54 marvin /kernel: Reset timeout scb->status = ffff May 31 12:14:54 marvin /kernel: .TO=ffff: May 31 12:14:54 marvin /kernel: shutting down May 31 12:14:54 marvin /kernel: Diagnose timeout scb->status = ffff May 31 12:14:54 marvin /kernel: .TO=ffff: May 31 12:14:54 marvin /kernel: shutting down May 31 12:14:55 marvin /kernel: Configure timeout scb->status = ffff May 31 12:14:55 marvin /kernel: .TO=ffff: May 31 12:14:55 marvin /kernel: shutting down May 31 12:14:55 marvin /kernel: IAS timeout scb->status = ffff May 31 12:14:55 marvin /kernel: .TO=ffff: May 31 12:14:55 marvin /kernel: shutting down (these were the errors as sent to syslog) I have tracked these errors down to the initiallization my Intel Etherexpress 16 (ix0). My network at home consists of the one machine and a 10base-2 cable.. not a whole lot for testing there. :) However, whenever I take my system to campus and try to access the ethernet directly I receive timeout errors of device ix0. Any thoughts? --- Joe Diehl Network and Systems Administrator KSU College of Engineering From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 10:41:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26074 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26068 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id DAA13967; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 03:32:57 +1000 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 03:32:57 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605311732.DAA13967@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG, mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG Subject: Re: TARGET_NO_FANCY_MATH_387 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >And your last sentence says why it's not a Good Idea to change the >default behavior. Also agreed, and I withdraw the suggestion. Too >bad, though. And I expect that just adding the same (no, similar, >not the same, no GPL, no LGPL, I'm sorry) non-optimized software >sqrt, sin, cos that are in the normal libm to the emulator would >be not so good. Or maybe it would be good? Then changing the default >might be a Good Idea. I'll restate the suggestion. It would be reasonable, but not easy. The software sqrt etc. want to use ordinary FPU instructions, and the emulator only supports them for user programs (nested traps to support kernel mode would be both hard to implement and slow). >Otherwise I guess it's a manual edit of the definitions and a make world. >Or make the make world have a way to set the definitions in conjunction >with the bsd.h file deep in gcc's bowels. Nahh, too kludgy. Making a new libm with HAVE_FPU set in /etc/make.conf should be sufficient. This isn't the default since it has the same problems as -mfancy-math-i387. User times for 1e6 fsqrt(2.0)'s on a P133: default libm (shared): 11.65 seconds HAVE_FPU libm (shared): 1.18 HAVE_FPU libm (static): 1.11 -mfancy-math-387: 0.68 home made inline fsqrt: 0.64 # (1) -mfancy-math-387 -ffast-math: 0.07 # (2) (1) Another reason for gcc not to inline things is that it's easy to write your own inline functions. (2) fsqrt(2.0) is recognized as a loop invariant and only calculated once. The time is just for counting to 1e6. >Now for the cheap-shot, flame-bait, no-good comment: the reason that this >came to my attention at all was to figure why a program ran so much faster >on ... Linux. Ayeeee. The non-FPU library has certainly been the default for too long. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 10:58:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26768 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda (ip57-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26761 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 10:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA06805; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:59:56 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199605311759.NAA06805@hda> Subject: Re: Mustek/Paragon 6000CX scanner: Any help with SCSI ioctls? To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605311242.OAA26369@allegro.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at May 31, 96 02:42:43 pm Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ..., on the other hand the man pages scsi([34]) > leave a lot to the imagination. I can probably fight my way through > (*and* I'm prepared to fix the man pages), but if somebody has > anything else they can point me to, I'd be very grateful. If you can find a scsi spec then scsi(3) will make more sense to you, since it assumes you can figure out what the fields in the scsi_request structure do based on familiarity with SCSI. Here is a url for an HTML one: http://abekas.com:8080/SCSI2/ It looks almost easy to port that Linux application. You could cut it in at the "scsi_cmd" call, setting up our scsireq structure and doing scsireq_enter. One problem will be figuring out where commands end and data begins - the Linux interface writes by sending a command followed by data in one write call and reads by writing the command and then reading back data. Our interface has command, command length, data, data length, and direction members in the structure. I'll send a sketch privately. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 11:22:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA27585 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from print.gfmurray.com ([207.6.88.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA27580 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by print.gfmurray.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA00259; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:20:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Baird To: Costa cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ifconfig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm not sure. Post this question to the freebsd questions list. On Thu, 30 May 1996, Costa wrote: > How many IP addresses (max number) can i bind to my ethernet card for > domain aliasing? > > Thanks, > Costa > > > ==================C=O=R=T=E=X==C=O=M=M=U=N=I=C=A=T=I=O=N=S================== > Costa J Morris - Partner Full Service Internet Access > http://www.cortx.com Interactive CGI Scripting > costa@cortx.com Internet Consulting > 201-567-2297 Web Design > ============================================================================ > > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 11:55:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29109 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29097 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 11:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id EAA15960; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 04:47:21 +1000 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 04:47:21 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199605311847.EAA15960@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, marc@bowtie.nl Subject: Re: Problems with serial port Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm having a problem with sendfax (from mgetty 0.99) hanging in a >ttywait (used ps auxl). This seems to happen to me after the machine >has been up for a longer period (19 days in this case, it also >happened a while back. The machine had been up for a similar period). Hangs in ttywait are normally caused by using crtscts and the external device keeping CTS low. This sometimes causes processes to hang in exit() where you can't kill them. The wait time can be limited to 60 seconds using `comcontrol dev/ttydX drainwait 60'. Use `pstat -t' to get more information on what the tty is waiting for. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 13:22:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09282 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09256; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA06931; Fri, 31 May 1996 22:22:03 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA04751; Fri, 31 May 1996 22:22:02 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA26576; Fri, 31 May 1996 21:53:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605311953.VAA26576@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: newgrp(1) To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.org (Gary Palmer) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:53:37 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kevin@NDA.COM, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <8754.833541087@palmer.demon.co.uk> from Gary Palmer at "May 31, 96 12:11:27 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gary Palmer wrote: > I think a newgrp command would be basically useless without breaking a > lot of existing installations by changing the inheritance > system. Since we are NOT trying to be SYS V, we are trying to be a > stable system which doesn't go switching things around without good > reason, I don't think a move to SYS V semantics is likely... The only possible reason i see were the Posix compliance Jason Thorpe (?) claimed. However, i cannot find it in my Posix.2 draft. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 13:22:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09306 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09277 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 13:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA06949; Fri, 31 May 1996 22:22:07 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA04759; Fri, 31 May 1996 22:22:07 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA26782; Fri, 31 May 1996 22:16:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199605312016.WAA26782@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Is the 3C595 10/100baset card supported in -stable To: bwithrow@BayNetworks.com (Robert Withrow) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 22:16:01 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605302121.RAA10169@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> from Robert Withrow at "May 30, 96 05:21:38 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Robert Withrow wrote: > If so would it be easier to upgrade to stable or to > retrofit the driver? Retrofitting rev 1.8 of the driver should be easy (only an update of sys/conf/files is required except of the actual driver), but i think the driver itself doesn't exactly count as being ``-stable''. (Nor do the cards, but that's another matter.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 14:36:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA19195 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.csie.nctu.edu.tw (root@phoenix.csie.nctu.edu.tw [140.113.17.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA19171 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw (freebsd.csie.nctu.edu.tw [140.113.235.250]) by phoenix.csie.nctu.edu.tw (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id CAA06322 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 02:53:50 +0800 (CST) Received: (from jdli@localhost) by FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA27442 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 02:52:39 +0800 (CST) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 02:52:39 +0800 (CST) Message-Id: <199605311852.CAA27442@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw> From: jdli@FreeBSD.csie.NCTU.edu.tw (Jian-Da Li) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: (fwd) XFree86 Trio64V+ lockup with AHA-2940 Newsgroups: mailing.freebsd.hackers Organization: NCTU CSIE FreeBSD Server Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I recall that some time ago there was a report here of machine lockup > when starting the XFree86 S3 server with at Trio64V+ PCI card in a machine > with an AHA-2940. I vaguely recall a comment from someone saying it might > have been related to a problem with the 2940 driver. Does anyone have > any further information on this? We have two pcs running FreeBSD with 2940 and Trio64V+ fine. One is ruinning freebsd-2.2-9508xx-current with 2940U and Trio64V+. The other is running 2.2-960530-CURRENT with 2940 and Trio64V+. Both of them are using ASUS T2P4 MB. -- §õ «Ø ¹F (Jian-Da Li) ¥æ¤j¸ê¤u E-Mail : jdli@csie.nctu.edu.tw From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 14:45:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21150 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21123 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA18810; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:40:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605312140.OAA18810@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:40:24 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, rashid@rk.ios.com, jgreco@solaria.sol.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199605292032.NAA02323@Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at May 29, 96 01:32:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is > >not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional > >BSD implementation). > > > >This would let access times be updated in core, but only scheduled to > >be written at a later time (not forced out immediately). > > They already are updated in-core and only written out during sync. The > problem is that on busy machines, *thousands* of inodes have to be written > out during the sync, and this can take 10+ seconds. With sync occuring every > 30 seconds, this means the machine spends 33% of it's disk I/O time *just* > writing out inodes. The access time is almost completely useless on a busy > fileserver, so this is just a waste. That they are writen out during sync instead of being LRU'ed out is *the* problem. The sync does not have a sufficiently long cycle time for decent write-gathering. It doesn't help that since the cache is by vnode/offset instead of device/offset, non-vnode-contents data is not really cached the same way at all; it tends to have a much higher flush rate than is desirable. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 14:48:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21896 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21867 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA18830; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:44:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605312144.OAA18830@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: jgreco@solaria.sol.net (Joe Greco) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:44:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: smd@cesium.clock.org, davidg@Root.COM, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org, rashid@rk.ios.com In-Reply-To: <199605292255.RAA04893@solaria.sol.net> from "Joe Greco" at May 29, 96 05:55:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Also, another venerable practice is to make the inode cache > > *huge* (tens of thousands of inodes in ninode/desiredvnodes, > > as appropriate). > > > > I would be willing to bet that these two changes, neither > > of which needs anything more than adb/gdb, and both of which > > are widely portable to 4BSD systems of all types, will make your > > max-ed out disks much happier. > > Well I'm open to suggestions. Punching up desiredvnodes may help > somewhat, but I already crank up other stuff which sets that pretty > high. It won't help because the cache is vnode data-block based; once a inode is unreferenced and dirty, it's going out in the next sync whether you want it to or not. It may then be clean and reclaimed by ihash, but by then you have already eaten the overhead. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 14:53:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23743 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23729 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA18849; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:49:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605312149.OAA18849@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:49:30 -0700 (MST) Cc: rashid@rk.ios.com, terry@lambert.org, davidg@Root.COM, hackers@freebsd.org, jgreco@solaria.sol.net In-Reply-To: <199605301011.UAA14948@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at May 30, 96 08:11:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is > >not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional > >BSD implementation). > > When was this traditional? It's just historical behaviour; has to do (in 4.3) with whether or not O_ASYNC is set or not. The write is done, regardless; it *will* be happening, not as a result of LRU. The only remaining question is "how soon", which bears on how much gathering will effectively take place on multiple references. The bigger the FS, the sparser the outcome. > >This would let access times be updated in core, but only scheduled to > >be written at a later time (not forced out immediately). > > 4.4BSD and I think Net/2 always only scheduled them to be written at a > later time. At the end of every read (incorrectly including unsuccessful > ones), access times are marked for update: > > ip->i_flag |= IN_ACCESS; /* see ufs_readwrite.c */ > > At certain checkpoints, the access times are updated. E.g., in ufs_close() > > if (inuse && !locked) > ITIMES(ip, &time, &time); > > If IN_ACCESS is set, this sets the access time in-core, sets IN_MODIFIED, and > clears IN_ACCESS. It doesn't write the inode. Setting IN_MODIFIED schedules > the inode to be written on the next sync, or when it is reused. ffs_sync() > calls VOP_UPDATE() with the sync-update flag clear and ffs_update() schedules > a delayed write. The thing should be updated when it is LRU'ed out of cache, not when it is synced. But since the cache is vnode data-block based in its use of LRU's, this can't happen. All non-data-block FS data gets committed an average of 30 seconds after it is changed (the sync interval). metadata of any kind is a second class citizen in vnode/offset based block cacheing. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 15:03:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27460 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27443 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA18899; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:00:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605312200.PAA18899@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: vt100/syscons/pcvt To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 15:00:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl In-Reply-To: <199605292327.TAA13134@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at May 29, 96 07:27:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > > > Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced > > Video Option board). > > > > Bzzt. Wrong. The vt100 without AVO would do 14 lines of 132 columns. > Check the vt100 handbook and old termcap (Uniplus SYS III I think sources...) > > Bill > ex-DEC Field Circus > Vax and VT100 board shuffler... uh... 12 lines. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 15:07:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA29000 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28982 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA18885; Fri, 31 May 1996 14:56:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199605312156.OAA18885@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:56:19 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, bde@zeta.org.au, grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605292049.WAA11482@yedi.iaf.nl> from "Wilko Bulte" at May 29, 96 10:49:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Nobody barfed on the 100-column stuff in userconfig, so I was presuming this > > wasn't an issue. If anyone wants to see what 80-column braindamage looks > > like, they should scope out pcvt. (or was it syscons? I can't remember...) > > > > > I also realize that this is going to be a highly unpopular position to > > > take in these comparatively early days of GUI technology, so be it - > > > just consider me 3-4 years ahead of my time on this issue. :-) > > > > Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > Wrong. Only a VT100 with an AVO installed. (For the curious: the Advanced > Video Option board). A VT100 without AVO can do 12 row 132 columns. The AVO board came with a replacement ROM; if anyone is interested, a VT100 with an AVO preinstalled is a VT102. I happen to have a reference manual for a VT102P (VT100+AVO+printer port)... Without an AVO, you got to select between reverse and underline attributes; with AVO, you get revrse, underline, blink, and bold, simultaneously. You also got insert/delete char/line and a bunch of lesser additional ANSI commands. Yes, I'm a geek who spent way too may years writing emulation software for a terminal software company (extra points: what's the difference between a VT130 and a VT131? It's a trick question... 8-)). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 15:49:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA15913 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA15899; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:49:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199605312249.PAA15899@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 15:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: davidg@Root.COM, terry@lambert.org, rashid@rk.ios.com, jgreco@solaria.sol.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605312140.OAA18810@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 31, 96 02:40:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > > > >There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is > > >not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional > > >BSD implementation). > > > > > >This would let access times be updated in core, but only scheduled to > > >be written at a later time (not forced out immediately). > > > > They already are updated in-core and only written out during sync. The > > problem is that on busy machines, *thousands* of inodes have to be written > > out during the sync, and this can take 10+ seconds. With sync occuring every > > 30 seconds, this means the machine spends 33% of it's disk I/O time *just* > > writing out inodes. The access time is almost completely useless on a busy > > fileserver, so this is just a waste. > > That they are writen out during sync instead of being LRU'ed out is > *the* problem. The sync does not have a sufficiently long cycle > time for decent write-gathering. > [caveat: i am getting deeper into filesystems but have a long way to go yet. please add a grain of salt to these comments.] how is our current file system different from that used in 4.2BSD? i assume that we are now using extent based clustering similar to that described by McVoy and Kleiman in "Extent-like Performance of a Unix File System". if so then increasing the update interval should have significant benefits in reducing the I/O soaked by inodes (metadata) updates. would this give us a quasi-asych filesystem? one where we could delay update to fit our tolerance for letting the metedata "hang out in the wind"? trace driven anaysis of 4.2 BSD FFS shows that increasing the update time to 5 min reduces I/O sharply. most files are short-lived. this is the same phenomemon that makes -pipe such a win in compilations. > It doesn't help that since the cache is by vnode/offset instead of > device/offset, non-vnode-contents data is not really cached the > same way at all; it tends to have a much higher flush rate than > is desirable. no comment at this time, your honor. ;) jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 16:15:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA20635 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 16:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA20603 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 16:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.7.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA22461; Fri, 31 May 1996 15:02:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199605312102.PAA22461@rover.village.org> To: Julian Assange Subject: Re: Indentation styles Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 May 1996 12:09:52 +1000 Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 15:02:21 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : Speaking of which, is anyone working on porting SVGATextMode to FreeBSD? : I normally run in 170x53 text mode on my linux box and 80x25 has become : insufferable. I got it working a while ago, but not with the kernel. However, that was at least two disk crashes ago and I've not been able to recover the changes. It was fairly easy to do... Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 16:19:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA20990 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 16:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sivka.rdy.com (sivka.rdy.com [205.149.182.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA20984 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 16:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dima@localhost by sivka.rdy.com id PAA08026; (8.7/RDY) Fri, 31 May 1996 15:52:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dima Ruban" Message-Id: <960531155225.ZM8025@sivka.rdy.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 15:52:25 -0700 Organization: HackerDome, Inc. X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0b.514 14may96) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Problems compiling libc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey guys! I'm having problems compiling libc (-stable) [... skipped ...] tsort: bt_split.so tsort: db.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: bt_delete.so tsort: bt_seq.so setinvalidrune.so: Definition of symbol `_setinvalidrune' (multiply defined) rune.so: Definition of symbol `_setinvalidrune' (multiply defined) rune.so: Definition of symbol `_setrunelocale' (multiply defined) setrunelocale.so: Definition of symbol `_setrunelocale' (multiply defined) *** Error code 1 Stop. altair# -- dima P.S. (this is latest sup) -- -- dima From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 17:44:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA26977 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 17:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26972 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 17:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA26374; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:37:11 +1000 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:37:11 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606010037.KAA26374@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? Cc: davidg@Root.COM, hackers@freebsd.org, jgreco@solaria.sol.net, rashid@rk.ios.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is >> >not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional >> >BSD implementation). >> >> When was this traditional? >It's just historical behaviour; has to do (in 4.3) with whether or >not O_ASYNC is set or not. The write is done, regardless; it *will* This seems unlikely. O_ASYNC has to do with SIGIO for sockets. Perhaps you mean O_FSYNC. O_FSYNC is a no-op in 4.4Lite and in FreeBSD. Perhaps you mean MNT_ASYNC. MNT_ASYNC is (almost?) a no-op in 4.4Lite but is partly implemented in FreeBSD. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 18:14:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28337 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 18:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28332; Fri, 31 May 1996 18:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA19301; Fri, 31 May 1996 18:11:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606010111.SAA19301@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:11:18 +1700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, davidg@Root.COM, rashid@rk.ios.com, jgreco@solaria.sol.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199605312249.PAA15899@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at May 31, 96 03:49:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > That they are writen out during sync instead of being LRU'ed out is > > *the* problem. The sync does not have a sufficiently long cycle > > time for decent write-gathering. > > [caveat: i am getting deeper into filesystems but have a long > way to go yet. please add a grain of salt to these comments.] > > how is our current file system different from that used in > 4.2BSD? i assume that we are now using extent based clustering > similar to that described by McVoy and Kleiman in "Extent-like > Performance of a Unix File System". if so then increasing the > update interval should have significant benefits in reducing > the I/O soaked by inodes (metadata) updates. would this give > us a quasi-asych filesystem? one where we could delay update > to fit our tolerance for letting the metedata "hang out in > the wind"? The difference is that the VM cache has been unified. One of the consequences of this is that the cache locality model has changed. Instead of a buffer cache that caches blocks from a given device, the cached pages are hung off the vnode -- if the pages are in fact data pages from an on disk file. The difference is pretty subtle. The pages for FS data which isn't actually data pages from a file end up being in one of three states: dirty pending write by sync or clean pending discard by sync or locked for use (wired/pinned/whatever) and not subject to sync. Only pages actually representing file data have any real cache persistance... At least that's the way I'm reading the code. We *really* need to have design documentation as to what is affected by whom when. Really, for a depth-first traversal, I'm going to be hitting the access time on directory inodes in a geometrically decreasing frequency relative to where the traversal starts as we go higher in the actualy FS tree. The liklihood that I won't be able to combine several "mark for update + update" or "update" operations on a given on disk inode into a dsingle write increases inversely to depth in the tree. Probably, I want to LRU the now-"dirty" inode data to the front of the LRU each time it is touched to delay the actual write until the operation that I'm doing that causes multiple updates is done. Unfortunately, the sync is going to write dirty pages, not simply reduce the LRU contents down to a floating age marker in the LRU ("all items in the LRU older than this amount must be written"). There's also the problem of write clustering. It's likely that several inodes in the same cylinder group will want to be written as one write to save on actual I/O; so clustering requirements may want to overrride LRU requirements in some cases; I don't know if this should take the form of lame insertion of ready-to-be-written LRU items in cluster order (delaying them), or if it should be time demotion in the LRU for an adjacent item. I guess it's whether you take LRU position as meaning "these blocks *want* to be written", or as "these blocks *don't* want to be written". Clearly, data integrity *wants* them written and cache utility *doesn't* want them written. I haven't really done experimentation on which policy is best; I suppose it would depend on ratio of cache to disk, and frequency of access compared to proposed LRU latency. John Dyson is surely more qualified to comment on this than I am. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri May 31 18:27:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA29237 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 31 May 1996 18:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29232 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 18:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA19324; Fri, 31 May 1996 18:23:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606010123.SAA19324@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:23:59 +1700 (MST) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, terry@lambert.org, davidg@Root.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@solaria.sol.net, rashid@rk.ios.com In-Reply-To: <199606010037.KAA26374@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jun 1, 96 10:37:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> >There is a school of thought that says "shall be updated" in POSIX is > >> >not the same as "shall be committed to stable storage" (the traditional > >> >BSD implementation). > >> > >> When was this traditional? > > >It's just historical behaviour; has to do (in 4.3) with whether or > >not O_ASYNC is set or not. The write is done, regardless; it *will* > > This seems unlikely. O_ASYNC has to do with SIGIO for sockets. Perhaps > you mean O_FSYNC. O_FSYNC is a no-op in 4.4Lite and in FreeBSD. Perhaps > you mean MNT_ASYNC. MNT_ASYNC is (almost?) a no-op in 4.4Lite but is > partly implemented in FreeBSD. I mean whatever O_SYNC is in System V, which says whether to wait for the write request to complete before returning from the write request, or whether it's OK to stick the requests onto a queue which is allowed to be reordered by write optimization algorithms at their discretion. I'd have to find a 4.3 online somewhere to get the actual name; you may be right that it's O_FSYNC, but I rather believe it was a flag the kernel passed to bwrite() that wasn't O_FSYNNC. Didn't you or John say that that 4.4-based FreeBSD no longer supports async I/O requests? The flag I'm referring to is the non-async case of a write request at the block I/O level for a system that supports async write requests. I think there are several fields in the inode which are POSIX mandated event-related instead of FS structure event-related, and so don't really require strict critical-data-style write guarantees. We seem to be giving the same weight to date up dates as to, for instance, file size, and this seems not quite kosher. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 01:02:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16215 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pancake.remcomp.fr (pancake.remcomp.fr [194.51.30.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA15848 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aida (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aida (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA01003 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:41:34 +0200 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:41:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: didier@aida.org To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 2.2 snapshot cdrom Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is the 2.2 snapshot cdrom available or is it a futur product ? Thanks -- Didier Derny | Private FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE Site Email: didier@aida.org | Microsoft Free Computer. Homepage: http://www.codix.fr/~dderny | AMD 5x86-160 on a ASUS PVI-486SP3 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 01:25:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19349 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19332 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uPlzo-000QaIC; Sat, 1 Jun 96 10:25 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA21097; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:23:49 +0200 Message-Id: <199606010823.KAA21097@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Mustek/Paragon 6000CX scanner: Any help with SCSI ioctls? To: hdalog@zipnet.net Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:23:49 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <199605311759.NAA06805@hda> from "Peter Dufault" at May 31, 96 01:59:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Dufault writes: > >> ..., on the other hand the man pages scsi([34]) >> leave a lot to the imagination. I can probably fight my way through >> (*and* I'm prepared to fix the man pages), but if somebody has >> anything else they can point me to, I'd be very grateful. > > If you can find a scsi spec then scsi(3) will make more sense to > you, since it assumes you can figure out what the fields in the > scsi_request structure do based on familiarity with SCSI. Here is > a url for an HTML one: > > http://abekas.com:8080/SCSI2/ Thanks. I have the SCSI spec--that's not the problem. The problem is more mundane things like the meaning of the parameters to the functions. For example, what are the units of the timeout field? I'm guessing seconds, but it could well be microseconds. > It looks almost easy to port that Linux application. I thought it was a BSDI application :-) Seriously, looking at the code, I decided to clone the BSDI version rather than the Linux version, since it looked cleaner. > I'll send a sketch privately. Thanks Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 03:16:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08434 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 03:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda (ip57-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08415 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 03:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda (8.6.11/8.6.9) id GAA09923; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 06:17:58 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199606011017.GAA09923@hda> Subject: Re: Mustek/Paragon 6000CX scanner: Any help with SCSI ioctls? To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 06:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hdalog@zipnet.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606010823.KAA21097@allegro.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Jun 1, 96 10:23:49 am Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Thanks. I have the SCSI spec--that's not the problem. The problem is > more mundane things like the meaning of the parameters to the > functions. For example, what are the units of the timeout field? I'm > guessing seconds, but it could well be microseconds. Good point. It is milliseconds - your questions will be best answered in "/usr/src/lib/libscsi/scsi.c", the source for the library. It will help a lot to have someone not familiar with the code go into that man page and fill in the holes. > > It looks almost easy to port that Linux application. > > I thought it was a BSDI application :-) Seriously, looking at the > code, I decided to clone the BSDI version rather than the Linux > version, since it looked cleaner. We must be looking at two different drivers - I did an alta vista search for "Mustek 6000CX" and got a bunch of hits for a "muscan" application. I'm looking at: > muscan-1.1.5.taz available on sunsite. It starts out: > muscan - scanner driver for Mustek Paragon 6000CX scanner > Copyright (C) 1995 Torsten Eichner The function I sent you off-list should plug right in to that app and get you debugging - maybe you can then send it on to Torsten. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 04:02:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA17609 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 04:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda (ip57-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA17592 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 04:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda (8.6.11/8.6.9) id HAA09983; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 07:03:29 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199606011103.HAA09983@hda> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 07:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606010123.SAA19324@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 31, 96 06:23:59 pm Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This seems unlikely. O_ASYNC has to do with SIGIO for sockets. Perhaps > > you mean O_FSYNC. O_FSYNC is a no-op in 4.4Lite and in FreeBSD. Perhaps > > you mean MNT_ASYNC. MNT_ASYNC is (almost?) a no-op in 4.4Lite but is > > partly implemented in FreeBSD. > > I mean whatever O_SYNC is in System V, which says whether to wait for > the write request to complete before returning from the write request, > or whether it's OK to stick the requests onto a queue which is allowed > to be reordered by write optimization algorithms at their discretion. The O_SYNC flag is file based (the fcntl and open flags). There is no POSIX O_FSYNC - there is O_SYNC for all metadata committed to disk and O_DSYNC for "only that needed to retrieve the data" committed to disk. Note that these flags require a synchronous write for the data, resulting in more I/O instead of less and not doing what Joe was trying to do. Even with _POSIX_SYNCHRONOUS_IO and nothing opened *SYNC (that is, you can be as aggressive as you are clever), POSIX requires that the file access times be updated when a "stat" or "fstat" happens and when no process has the file open. This precludes a standard way of efficiently handling files that are being rapidly opened and closed where you don't care about the access times. I think they should have changed this part of the spec when they defined the sychronous I/O to let you only update the access fields when the associated I/O takes place, permitting standard "aggressively asynchronous" behavior. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 04:25:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA23064 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 04:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA23053 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 04:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uPony-000QakC; Sat, 1 Jun 96 13:25 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA21544 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:16:35 +0200 Message-Id: <199606011116.NAA21544@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Anybody having problems with mthe CD-ROM driver? To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:16:35 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just did this with my Nakamichi CD-ROM changer: + === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) /usr/home/grog 2 -> mount /cd2 + === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) /usr/home/grog 3 -> cd /cd2 + === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) /cd2 4 -> ls + 00index.txt 00readme.1st x11r6 Huh? That's not what I expected. + === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) /cd2 5 -> cd + === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) ~ 6 -> umount /cd2 (Takes CD out of drive, checks it (it's the right CD), and replaces it. + === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) ~ 7 -> mount /cd2 + === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) ~ 8 -> cd /cd2 + === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp4) /cd2 9 -> ls + 00index.txt banner.bbs gnu packer slackware + 00readme.1st files.bbs linux rfcs unixsrc + TRANS.TBL freebsd list.com rr_moved x11r6 Now it's right. Any ideas? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 05:48:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA05346 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 05:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA05325 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 05:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA17058; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 22:43:46 +1000 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 22:43:46 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606011243.WAA17058@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: dufault@hda, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Even with _POSIX_SYNCHRONOUS_IO and nothing opened *SYNC (that is, >you can be as aggressive as you are clever), POSIX requires that >the file access times be updated when a "stat" or "fstat" happens >and when no process has the file open. This precludes a standard >way of efficiently handling files that are being rapidly opened >and closed where you don't care about the access times. I think >they should have changed this part of the spec when they defined >the sychronous I/O to let you only update the access fields when >the associated I/O takes place, permitting standard "aggressively >asynchronous" behavior. It already permits agressive async behaviour, because update has nothing to do with writing to disk. It just requires the update marks (if any) to be converted to actual timestamps. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 06:34:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA13812 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 06:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA13800 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 06:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id PAA28062; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 15:15:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA02384; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 15:12:02 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 15:12:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: didier@aida.org cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.2 snapshot cdrom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sat, 1 Jun 1996 didier@aida.org wrote: > Is the 2.2 snapshot cdrom available or is it a futur product ? A week ago it was available and the guys at wc sent it very fast to germany (within 3 days). - -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMbBBnfMLpmkD/U+FAQGkWQP/fHkGlGAuVhiJKFqGr19Yo3xj7PeC6WRR xooslboW5+hKfW8RXtDavjvELg2i69cC6TGR/CrJl2o21gNaDXmFrMjpc+AoxPri MFsR2xIYu4o9NnMfBVXc3HJbRLPmZS7twXGkFo9qsGquejzWcRWrUwXA7D/OCFBi XjbeZnEzwdE= =sq5I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 08:31:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08906 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 08:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA08856; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 08:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA00235; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 11:34:15 -0400 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 11:34:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199606011534.LAA00235@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Nasty Routing BUG in 2.1R Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've encountered a nasty, easily reproducable bug in 2.1R that causes a panic. The following sequence: route add 200.11.1.17 200.11.1.3 /* where 200.11.1.17 is inactive or doesnt exist and 200.11.1.3 is another FreeBSD router/host on the network. It creates a route entry Dest=200.11.1.17 GW=200.11.1.3 */ ping -c 1 200.11.1.17 /* This generates a re-direct which changes the route entry to Dest=200.11.1.17 GW=200.11.1.17. This seems quite wrong.... the entry should be either deleted or resolved */ route delete 200.11.1.17 /* This causes a panic in the function rtfree(). If you dont delete the route then the host address is unreachable (you get an arpresolve error). */ Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 08:59:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA14998 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 08:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from central.picker.com (central.picker.com [144.54.31.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14987 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 08:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by central.picker.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0uPsyP-0004rlC; Sat, 1 Jun 96 11:52 EDT Received: from elmer.picker.com ([144.54.52.5]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06059; Sat, 1 Jun 96 11:52:05 EDT Received: by elmer.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA24442; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 11:52:54 -0400 From: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Message-Id: <199606011552.LAA24442@elmer.picker.com> Subject: ATAPI IDE-CDROM Detection Fix To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 11:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: rhh@ct.picker.com Organization: Picker International, CT Division X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Finally got some time to play around with this. After trying all the tips in mail archives without success I worked with the kernel a bit. I found that if caused the wd driver to ignore the "controller busy" that was detected at the top of atapi.c:atapi_probe (atapi_wait), my CD-ROM was detected fine and worked well, except that the first access to the drive typically failed (e.g. mount). Thinking the IDE hard disk attach code (wd.c:wdattach) might be leaving the controller in an invalid state for ATAPI probing, I put in a hack to wdattach so it wouldn't probe for hard disks on wdc1 where I have my IDE CD-ROM, but just skip straight to the atapi_attach on that controller. With that change, everything works great. I'm not sure if there's a fix for the underlying bug involved here in current. Does anyone know? But anyway, if you're running stock 2.1.0R and are having troubles getting your IDE CD-ROM detected, and it's hanging off an IDE controller (wdc1) by itself, try this fix to /usr/src/sys/i386/isa/wd.c and see if it helps: #ifdef OLDSTUFF_IN_ORIGINAL_FILE if (wdgetctlr(du) == 0) { #else /* RHH - Don't try to find hard disks on wdc1 */ if ((dvp->id_unit == 0) && (wdgetctlr(du) == 0)) { #endif which causes the hard disk probe to only be done for hard disks hanging off your first IDE controller (wdc0). If your CD is instead on wdc0, try replacing (dvp->id_unit == 0) with (0) to never probe for hard disks, only ATAPI. (Another nice benefit of this hack is that you get rid of a really long delay while the kernel times out probing for hard disks that don't exist). With the hack above, I can play audio CDs with "cdplay wcd0" and mount ISO9660 CDs with "mount -r -t cd9660 /dev/wcd0c /cd". The only strange thing I notice is that it sounds like one of the hard disks in my machine is doing an unusual amount of track seeking when the CD is accessed -- no bad effects that I've noticed though. By the way, my configuration is FreeBSD 2.1.0R, P55TP4XE motherboard with dual-IDE, 2 hard drives on wdc0, and a Sony CDU-55E IDE CDROM on wdc1. Randall Hopper rhh@ct.picker.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 09:04:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA16176 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda (ip57-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16159 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA10264; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:04:01 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199606011604.MAA10264@hda> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Cc: dufault@hda.zipnet.net, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606011243.WAA17058@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jun 1, 96 10:43:46 pm Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It already permits agressive async behaviour, because update has > nothing to do with writing to disk. It just requires the update > marks (if any) to be converted to actual timestamps. I know - I meant "more aggressive" by not converting update marks to time stamps if you don't care. Maybe that is overkill, I thought the original application called for something like this. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 09:27:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22629 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22608 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 09:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA23320; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 02:23:12 +1000 Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 02:23:12 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606011623.CAA23320@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, dufault@hda Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? Cc: dufault@hda.zipnet.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, terry@lambert.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> It already permits agressive async behaviour, because update has >> nothing to do with writing to disk. It just requires the update >> marks (if any) to be converted to actual timestamps. >I know - I meant "more aggressive" by not converting update marks >to time stamps if you don't care. Maybe that is overkill, I thought >the original application called for something like this. You would still have to keep the update marks somewhere :-). They should compress very well since they are only 1 bit to begin with and have a steady state value of 1 :-). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 10:03:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01308 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda (ip57-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01301 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA10369; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:05:20 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199606011705.NAA10369@hda> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, dufault@hda.zipnet.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, terry@lambert.org In-Reply-To: <199606011623.CAA23320@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jun 2, 96 02:23:12 am Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You would still have to keep the update marks somewhere :-). They > should compress very well since they are only 1 bit to begin with > and have a steady state value of 1 :-). You need update marks, but if you don't need to change them from marks to time stamps when the files are closed you reduce the overhead of a file system full of many small files being thrashed open and closed. No, I haven't thought through the benefits and drawbacks - I'll shutup. Note that read-only file systems obviously don't have time stamps, giving me some screwy ideas about how to look at the original problem if it is heavily loaded on the read side. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 13:55:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03619 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from central.picker.com (central.picker.com [144.54.31.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03609 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 13:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by central.picker.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0uPxdG-0004rmC; Sat, 1 Jun 96 16:50 EDT Received: from elmer.picker.com ([144.54.52.5]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14871; Sat, 1 Jun 96 16:50:33 EDT Received: by elmer.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA25246; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:51:22 -0400 From: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Message-Id: <199606012051.QAA25246@elmer.picker.com> Subject: Re: ATAPI IDE-CDROM Detection Fix To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: rhh@ct.picker.com Organization: Picker International, CT Division X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > With the hack above, I can play audio CDs with "cdplay wcd0" and mount >ISO9660 CDs with "mount -r -t cd9660 /dev/wcd0c /cd". The only strange >thing I notice is that it sounds like one of the hard disks in my machine >is doing an unusual amount of track seeking when the CD is accessed -- no >bad effects that I've noticed though. (Responding to my own post) Sorry, slip of the brain. Just to put your mind at ease if you're thinking of trying the patch, this hard disk activity was the error logger -- I had a number of driver debugs turned on. :-) Randall Hopper rhh@ct.picker.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 14:28:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05815 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 14:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05810 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 14:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA00828 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:28:38 -0400 From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199606012128.RAA00828@crh.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Pentium Pro 200 PCI chipset? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:28:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a simple way to test to see if the PCI chipset on the Micronics M6Pi motherboard is any good? I believe it is based on the Intel 450kx PCI chipset (at least according to Micronics web page). -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 15:17:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07274 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 15:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07266 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 15:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id aa09717; 1 Jun 96 23:16 +0100 Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa03837; 1 Jun 96 23:15 +0100 Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA02321; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:29:48 GMT Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:29:48 GMT Message-Id: <199606012029.UAA02321@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Two queries (libcompat.so and timedef()) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here are a couple of things I looked into as a result of discussions on -questions and didn't quite understand what I found. I was wondering if anyone has any comments (even just a "yes we know it's broken, go and fix it!" will do 8-) 1. ftok(). The prototype for this function is missing from . No big deal, it's probably just an oversight which is easy to fix, so I did that on my local tree. Just to make sure I hadn't made any silly mistakes, I wrote a test program; the damn thing didn't link, even though I compiled it with -lcompat! On investigation, I have a libcompat.a and a libcompat_p.a on my system, but no libcompat.so. So does in fact does my 2.1.0-RELEASE disk. Is this intentional? Also, is there any reason for ftok() to be in libcompat, when all the other SysV IPC stuff is in libc? 2. timedef(). We have colldef() for LC_COLLATE and mklocale() for LC_LOCALE, but apparently nothing for LC_TIME. However, there seems to have been a colltime() at one time which was removed about 6 months ago. What would be involved in writing one? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 16:03:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08640 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08634 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA22318; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 15:59:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606012259.PAA22318@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: hdalog@zipnet.net Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 15:59:16 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606011103.HAA09983@hda> from "Peter Dufault" at Jun 1, 96 07:03:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > This seems unlikely. O_ASYNC has to do with SIGIO for sockets. Perhaps > > > you mean O_FSYNC. O_FSYNC is a no-op in 4.4Lite and in FreeBSD. Perhaps > > > you mean MNT_ASYNC. MNT_ASYNC is (almost?) a no-op in 4.4Lite but is > > > partly implemented in FreeBSD. > > > > I mean whatever O_SYNC is in System V, which says whether to wait for > > the write request to complete before returning from the write request, > > or whether it's OK to stick the requests onto a queue which is allowed > > to be reordered by write optimization algorithms at their discretion. > > The O_SYNC flag is file based (the fcntl and open flags). There > is no POSIX O_FSYNC - there is O_SYNC for all metadata committed > to disk and O_DSYNC for "only that needed to retrieve the data" > committed to disk. Note that these flags require a synchronous > write for the data, resulting in more I/O instead of less and not > doing what Joe was trying to do. > > Even with _POSIX_SYNCHRONOUS_IO and nothing opened *SYNC (that is, > you can be as aggressive as you are clever), POSIX requires that > the file access times be updated when a "stat" or "fstat" happens > and when no process has the file open. This precludes a standard > way of efficiently handling files that are being rapidly opened > and closed where you don't care about the access times. I think > they should have changed this part of the spec when they defined > the sychronous I/O to let you only update the access fields when > the associated I/O takes place, permitting standard "aggressively > asynchronous" behavior. The kernel implementation has little or nothing to do with POSIX, which can just as easily be implemented in a library (as OS/2, NT, and VMS have proven). I am talking about the flag to the block I/O subsystem that causes the kernel operation that actually reads/writes disk blocks to require synchronous completion before allowing the continued usage of state as if it were idempotent. The name in SVR3 and SVR4 for this parameter flag was OSYNC, *NOT* O_SYNC. I typo'ed when I first wrote it. Please quit addressing this as if it were anything other than a kernel space issue. Thanks, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 16:12:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09066 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA09061 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA22341; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:08:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606012308.QAA22341@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:08:39 -0700 (MST) Cc: dufault@hda, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606011243.WAA17058@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jun 1, 96 10:43:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Even with _POSIX_SYNCHRONOUS_IO and nothing opened *SYNC (that is, > >you can be as aggressive as you are clever), POSIX requires that > >the file access times be updated when a "stat" or "fstat" happens > >and when no process has the file open. This precludes a standard > >way of efficiently handling files that are being rapidly opened > >and closed where you don't care about the access times. I think > >they should have changed this part of the spec when they defined > >the sychronous I/O to let you only update the access fields when > >the associated I/O takes place, permitting standard "aggressively > >asynchronous" behavior. > > It already permits agressive async behaviour, because update has > nothing to do with writing to disk. It just requires the update > marks (if any) to be converted to actual timestamps. Bruce is right. "Marked for update" can mean "have a flag set so that the current time, when update is done, is inserted into the field in place of the time that was formerly in the field". "Shall be updated" can mean "the current time is inserted into the field in place of the time that was formerly in the field". In both cases, the page and/or block that contains the data that was modified is "marked dirty" following the actual update. What is at issue is whether once it is marked dirty, the write can or can not be delayed over a the update daemon attempting a sync, or whether the dirty block *must* be written. The issue is one of latency, persistance, and cache cleaning algorithms. The LRU which applies to cache cleaning algoritm for cache blocks for a referenced file is *different* than the cache cleaning algorithm applied to pages/block not hung off an in core vnode (for reasons which should be obvious and which are derivitive of the buffer/VM cache unification method which was employed. I personally believe that most of the POSIX update semantic overhead imposed by making the ordering guarantees UFS makes to guarantee deterministic recovers of FS data, can be traced to being caused by the update daemon not imposing LRU list restrictions on data other than buffers hung off of vnodes. There is more than one way to solve the overhead problem. One way would be to use LRU's to increase cache locality for metadata instead of just for data in the unified cache model. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 16:15:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09213 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA09196 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA22365; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:11:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606012311.QAA22365@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: hdalog@zipnet.net Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 16:11:38 -0700 (MST) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, dufault@hda.zipnet.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, terry@lambert.org In-Reply-To: <199606011705.NAA10369@hda> from "Peter Dufault" at Jun 1, 96 01:05:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > You would still have to keep the update marks somewhere :-). They > > should compress very well since they are only 1 bit to begin with > > and have a steady state value of 1 :-). > > You need update marks, but if you don't need to change them from > marks to time stamps when the files are closed you reduce the > overhead of a file system full of many small files being thrashed > open and closed. No, I haven't thought through the benefits and > drawbacks - I'll shutup. Don't do that. 8-). The problem is not that the semantics require the conversion, but that the conversion, using the current cache schema, requires more writes than you would want it to require. If you can increase cache locality, you can reduce the writes without giving up the semantics. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 17:01:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11710 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lenzi ([200.247.7.213]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11630 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lenzi@localhost) by lenzi (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA01541; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:17:46 -0300 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:17:46 -0300 (EST) From: "Lenzi, Sergio" X-Sender: lenzi@lenzi To: Marc van Kempen cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problems with serial port In-Reply-To: <199605310633.IAA01146@nietzsche.bowtie.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 31 May 1996, Marc van Kempen wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm having a problem with sendfax (from mgetty 0.99) hanging in a > ttywait (used ps auxl). This seems to happen to me after the machine > has been up for a longer period (19 days in this case, it also > happened a while back. The machine had been up for a similar period). > > I don't seem to able to get out of it, short of rebooting. This is > on a -stable kernel from a while back, rest is 2.1. > > Is there any other solution to remove the proces and free the > serial port, other than rebooting and is this perhaps a hardware > problem? (Whenever I reboot, the problem is immediately gone.) > > Regards, > Marc. The problem seems to happen when the fax disconnects and the modem sends erratic data to the port, causing it to hang. (i have experienced this whith modems in a kermit program). Solution: use the comcontrol command and the drainwait options. ex: comcontrol /dev/cuaa1 drainwait 20 In my system the port returns to normal state in 20 seconds. Hope this will help.> From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 17:16:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA14269 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muse.microunity.com (muse1.microunity.com [192.216.206.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA14263 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gaea.microunity.com by muse.microunity.com (4.1/ericm1.1) id AA11857; Sat, 1 Jun 96 17:16:01 PDT Received: from gallifrey.microunity.com by gaea.microunity.com (4.1/muse1.3) id AA16495; Sat, 1 Jun 96 17:15:59 PDT Received: by gallifrey.microunity.com (8.6.10/muse-sgi.2) id RAA02882; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:15:58 -0700 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:15:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199606020015.RAA02882@gallifrey.microunity.com> From: Deborah Gronke Bennett To: gusw@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Gunther Schadow) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: gusw@zedat.fu-berlin.de's message of 29 May 1996 19:59:07 GMT Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940 U makes fatal bus resets! References: <4oiaab$73e@fu-berlin.de> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Did you see my posting on almost the same day reporting problems with the same controller as you have and a CD-ROM drive? I can get the machine to boot, but when I mount from the CD I see the exact same error messages as you do. From our mutual problems, I suspect the problem is with the controller, not the SCSI devices attached. The controller is rather new. I don't have the ability to submit a problem report using send-pr right now - do you? Have you submitted a report yet? Did you get any response? I am copying this reply to the freebsd-hackers list in hope that someone there might already be working on the problem, or be interested enough to read the two articles in the newsgroup before they expire. -deborah bennett Hi, my new machine has an Adaptech 2940 Ultra SCSI host adapter with an IBM DORS SCSI2 (2 GB) disk, a CD ROM and a DAT drive attached to it. Now, when I write to the DAT, everything seems O.K., however, when trying to read, I sometimes get: ahc0: target 6, lun 0 (st0) timed out st0(ahc0:6:0): BUS DEVICE RESET message queued and then: st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy I can't figure out, what is wrong here, since sometimes reading works just fine. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 20:46:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA28188 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA28183 for ; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA22802 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:46:02 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Sun, 2 Jun 96 06:46:01 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by astral.msk.su (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA00370; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:44:55 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199606020344.HAA00370@astral.msk.su> Subject: Re: Two queries (libcompat.so and timedef()) To: fhackers@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:44:54 +0400 (MSD) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606012029.UAA02321@jraynard.demon.co.uk> from "James Raynard" at "Jun 1, 96 08:29:48 pm" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (aka Andrey A. Chernov, Black Mage) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 2. timedef(). We have colldef() for LC_COLLATE and mklocale() for > LC_LOCALE, but apparently nothing for LC_TIME. However, there seems to > have been a colltime() at one time which was removed about 6 months > ago. What would be involved in writing one? Please, don't point to programs as to functions, it can be confusing... What we have right now: LC_CTYPE -> mklocale LC_COLLATE -> colldef LC_TIME -> timedef (/usr/src/share/timedef) -- Andrey A. Chernov : And I rest so composedly, /Now, in my bed, ache@astral.msk.su : That any beholder /Might fancy me dead - http://dt.demos.su/~ache : Might start at beholding me, /Thinking me dead. RELCOM Team,FreeBSD Team : E.A.Poe From "For Annie" 1849 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 21:04:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA28676 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 21:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harbor.silcom.com (harbor.silcom.com [199.201.128.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA28668; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 21:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beach.silcom.com (root@beach.silcom.com [199.201.128.19]) by harbor.silcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA26865; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 21:05:50 -0700 Received: from zoof.cts.com by beach.silcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id VAA19221; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 21:04:41 -0700 Received: from zoof.cts.com ([127.0.0.1]) by zoof.cts.com (post.office MTA v2.0 pre-alpha ID# 0-1001) with SMTP id AAA577; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:59:51 -0700 From: pjf@cts.com (Paul Falstad) Message-Id: <9606012059.ZM575@zoof> Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 20:59:50 -0700 X-Face: '{%PTQSjPtb*gV+:1\\^>-*AfWrG__v9_[KzFQ0{xa8CVcSp$1kgA X-Anagram: Salad, Flat Up X-Shakespearean-Insult: Thou mangled ill-nurtured mumble-news! X-Face-Info: Player being hurt, from Doom Reply-To: Paul Falstad To: bde@freebsd.org Subject: bugs Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, here are some problems I encountered while trying to port na application to FreeBSD. I have workarounds for all of them, but I thought you might like to know. (1) mmap doesn't seem to work for extending a file. Here's a sample: ------------------------------------------ #include #include #include main() { int fd = open("newfile", O_RDWR|O_CREAT|O_EXCL, 0660); char *buf = mmap(NULL, 100, PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fd, 0); printf("%lx\n", buf); strcpy(buf, "hi!"); } ------------------------------------------ This test program dies when trying to do the strcpy. What we're trying to do is create a file using mmap() instead of write(). (This is in BSDI too.) (2) there seems to be some bad interation between setgid and setgroups. Here's a test program: ------------------------------------------ #include #include #include #include main(int ac, char **av) { int f; if(setgroups(0, NULL) < 0) perror("setgroups"); if(setgid(atoi(av[1])) < 0) perror("setgid"); if(setuid(atoi(av[1])) < 0) perror("setuid"); f = access("somefile", X_OK); printf("%d %d\n", f, errno); } ------------------------------------------ Create a file called "somefile", chown it to root, chgrp it to group 123, chmod it 770. Run this program as root with argument "123". The setgroups() clears the group id set; setgid() sets the gid, but doesn't add it to the group id set (?). The result is that the access() fails, even though our group id has permission to execute the file. (This is in BSDI too) (3) There seems to be a problem with sys/signal.h. Try compiling the following program, called foo.cxx: ------------------------------------------ #include void sigfunc(int s) { } main() // this is a C++ program { struct sigaction sa; sa.sa_handler = SIG_IGN; sa.sa_handler = sigfunc; sa.sa_handler = (sig_t) sigfunc; signal(SIGINT, sigfunc); signal(SIGINT, SIG_IGN); } ------------------------------------------ The result of compiling this is: foo.cxx: In function `int main()': foo.cxx:10: assignment to `void (*)()' from `void (*)(int)' foo.cxx:11: assignment to `void (*)()' from `void (*)(int)' foo.cxx:12: assignment to `void (*)()' from `void (*)(int)' It looks like sa_handler isn't declared to match SIG_IGN. Thanks... -- Paul Falstad, pjf@cts.com, 805-966-4935, http://www.ttinet.com/pjf/ work: pf@software.com, 805-882-2470, http://www.software.com Everywhere I go I'm asked if I think the university stifles writers. My opinion is that they don't stifle enough of them. -- Flannery O'Connor From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 22:49:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01663 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 22:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA01656; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 22:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA12662; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:43:37 +1000 Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:43:37 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606020543.PAA12662@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@freebsd.org, pjf@cts.com Subject: Re: bugs Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Hi, here are some problems I encountered while trying to port na >application to FreeBSD. I have workarounds for all of them, but >I thought you might like to know. Which version of FreeBSD? :-) >(1) mmap doesn't seem to work for extending a file. Here's a sample: >------------------------------------------ >#include >#include >#include >main() >{ > int fd = open("newfile", O_RDWR|O_CREAT|O_EXCL, 0660); > char *buf = mmap(NULL, 100, PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fd, 0); > printf("%lx\n", buf); > strcpy(buf, "hi!"); >} >------------------------------------------ >This test program dies when trying to do the strcpy. What we're >trying to do is create a file using mmap() instead of write(). >(This is in BSDI too.) I don't know much about mmap. This still seems to be broken. It works if the file already exists and is nonempty and is opened in non-exclusive mode. I tried a file of length 512. Setting buf[4095] to 1 didn't trap but the file wasn't extended. Setting buf[4096] to 1 trapped. >(2) there seems to be some bad interation between setgid and setgroups. >Here's a test program: >------------------------------------------ >#include >#include >#include >#include >main(int ac, char **av) >{ > int f; > if(setgroups(0, NULL) < 0) perror("setgroups"); > if(setgid(atoi(av[1])) < 0) perror("setgid"); > if(setuid(atoi(av[1])) < 0) perror("setuid"); > f = access("somefile", X_OK); > printf("%d %d\n", f, errno); >} >------------------------------------------ >Create a file called "somefile", chown it to root, chgrp it to group 123, >chmod it 770. Run this program as root with argument "123". The >setgroups() clears the group id set; setgid() sets the gid, but doesn't >add it to the group id set (?). The result is that the access() fails, >even though our group id has permission to execute the file. (This is >in BSDI too) This is more or less fixed. setgroups(0, any) now returns EINVAL. It previously gave no groups or something silly like that. The program worked right with setgroups(1, gr) (gr[0] = getegid()). >(3) There seems to be a problem with sys/signal.h. Try compiling >the following program, called foo.cxx: >------------------------------------------ >#include >void sigfunc(int s) >{ >} >main() // this is a C++ program >{ > struct sigaction sa; > sa.sa_handler = SIG_IGN; > sa.sa_handler = sigfunc; > sa.sa_handler = (sig_t) sigfunc; > signal(SIGINT, sigfunc); > signal(SIGINT, SIG_IGN); >} >------------------------------------------ >The result of compiling this is: >foo.cxx: In function `int main()': >foo.cxx:10: assignment to `void (*)()' from `void (*)(int)' >foo.cxx:11: assignment to `void (*)()' from `void (*)(int)' >foo.cxx:12: assignment to `void (*)()' from `void (*)(int)' >It looks like sa_handler isn't declared to match SIG_IGN. This has been "fixed" in -current for a year but the fix isn't in -stable. Sigh. POSIX.1-1990 specifies sa_handler to have the broken incomplete type `void (*sa_handler)()'. This causes C compiler warnings and C++ compiler errors, so I completed the type to `void (*sa_handler)(int)'. I think this change is valid because conforming programs won't be able to tell the difference. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 1 23:01:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01917 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 23:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01912; Sat, 1 Jun 1996 23:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA00232; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:00:09 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199606020600.BAA00232@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: bugs To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:00:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: bde@freebsd.org, pjf@cts.com, dyson@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606020543.PAA12662@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jun 2, 96 03:43:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Which version of FreeBSD? :-) > > >(1) mmap doesn't seem to work for extending a file. Here's a sample: > > >------------------------------------------ > >#include > >#include > >#include > > >main() > >{ > > int fd = open("newfile", O_RDWR|O_CREAT|O_EXCL, 0660); > > char *buf = mmap(NULL, 100, PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fd, 0); > > printf("%lx\n", buf); > > strcpy(buf, "hi!"); > >} > >------------------------------------------ > > >This test program dies when trying to do the strcpy. What we're > >trying to do is create a file using mmap() instead of write(). > >(This is in BSDI too.) > > I don't know much about mmap. This still seems to be broken. It works if > the file already exists and is nonempty and is opened in non-exclusive > mode. I tried a file of length 512. Setting buf[4095] to 1 didn't trap > but the file wasn't extended. Setting buf[4096] to 1 trapped. > MMAP doesn't extend files, AFAIK it doesn't on many (if not most other OSes.) To set the length of the file you need to do an ftruncate. After that, then blocks will be allocated as needed. John