From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 1 0:37:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8517637B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 00:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f617bLl25389; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 00:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: Subject: RE: Lets not bash Windows or M$ at every opportunity {was: FreeBSD and Microsoft} Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 00:37:21 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c10200$a9805520$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010630111735.B26839@hades.hell.gr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Giorgos >Keramidas > >On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:32:33PM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> It seems to me that so far the only people that have ever built a >> sustainable business model with multimedia are the porno sites. >> Perhaps that is who is really secretly funding all of the >> development on the new streaming video formats because there's >> nobody else in the business that is making any money doing it. > >Heh. I seem to recall at least once a message from Jordan that stated >more or less the same thing. A quick search in the archives, and I >failed to find it right now, but I think I can't agree more :) > Tee hee hee - I wonder if he still would say this, working for Apple now, inventor of many of these formats. :-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 1 0:51:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A7037B403 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 00:51:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f617mpl25408; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 00:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "j mckitrick" , "Frank Pawlak" Cc: Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 00:48:50 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c10202$44c16640$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010630235936.A90173@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of j mckitrick >Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 4:00 PM >To: Frank Pawlak >Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > >On Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 05:24:44PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: >| The GPL vs BSD license issue has been debated almost to death on the >| various comp.unix *. lists and other places. For the interested do a >| search on John Dyson and you will find all sorts of material. John has >| engaged in many an argument on the license issue. > >Ah, great. Just what i was looking for. Really. > >I'm sure the heavies on this list have tired of my naivete'. ;-) > Seriously, this question needs to come up every once in a while, there's plenty of newbies besides yourself that have subscribed to -questions _after_ all of these debates were posted. The one thing in that letter that I thought was interesting is the reference to _stealing_ BASIC, I haven't seen that one before. That should have got your warning flag set because when Microsoft was releasing BASIC for the PC, (and S-100 CP/M I believe) the code for that was all handwritten assembly language. If he had developers that did get a public domain assembly language version of BASIC they would have had to extensively modify it for whatever computer they wanted to run it on, and in the S-100 days there wasn't a "standard" for a computer like we understand the PC Standard of today, so this claim of stealing BASIC is pretty much bogus. (IBM as many other computer manufacturers, like Commodore, also released BASIC rom code and there wasn't any attribution to Microsoft in it) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 1 1:18: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9F237B403 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 01:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f618FWl25477; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 01:15:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "j mckitrick" , Subject: RE: multimedia formats Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 01:15:32 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c10205$ff884fe0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010630195629.A86721@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of j mckitrick >Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 11:56 AM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: multimedia formats > > > >Ted is right. Multimedia would have gone nowhere if it hadn't been for >porn. Apparently, there was quite a scuffle when Quicktime and Windows >Media Formats were duking it out. IIRC, Quicktime was better, but WMP won >because... um... oh, yeah, because it was already installed on the machine >and easier to use. > Hmmm.. wasn't it because you could operate the WMP with one hand? :-() [I'll probably regret going there, but I couldn't resist, sorry!] Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 1 3:13:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4FC37B405 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 03:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010701101331.WKGH16359.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 03:13:31 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010701060843.017bfee8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 06:12:43 -0400 To: FreeBSD Advocacy From: Technical Information Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? In-Reply-To: <001601c10202$44c16640$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <20010630235936.A90173@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually, the BASIC used on the Commodore 64 and VIC-20 was licensed from Microsoft. It said so in the startup screen. This was perhaps the first time I'd ever heard of Microsoft. But my understanding is that it was ported to many different microcomputers. There wasn't such an effort to "lock" users into one platform since Microsoft hadn't yet established a presence of it's own. --Chip Morton At 03:48 AM 7/1/2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >The one thing in that letter that I thought was interesting is the reference >to >_stealing_ BASIC, I haven't seen that one before. That should have got your >warning flag set because when Microsoft was releasing BASIC for the PC, (and >S-100 >CP/M I believe) the code for that was all handwritten assembly language. If >he had developers that did get a public domain assembly language version of >BASIC >they would have had to extensively modify it for whatever computer they >wanted >to run it on, and in the S-100 days there wasn't a "standard" for a computer >like we understand the PC Standard of today, so this claim of stealing BASIC >is pretty much bogus. (IBM as many other computer manufacturers, like >Commodore, also released BASIC rom code and there wasn't any attribution to >Microsoft in it) > > >Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com >Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide >Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 1 11:15:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (ip-208.54.117.169.mobilestar.net [208.54.117.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A350637B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 11:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f61H5C000508 for FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 13:05:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 13:05:12 -0400 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: dmr on Linux and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010701130512.A478@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG USENIX is just winding down, and while waiting to leave for the airport I browsed through an interview with Dennis Ritchie in the June issue of Linux Magazine. One part caught my attention: LM: Have you ever looked at the Linux source code? dmr: I haven't looked in a lot of detail. A year and a half ago or so, we ported Inferno to it, and it was somewhat of a pain. Somebody discovered a driver--I guess--some place in the kernel that had some extremely stupid thing going on. It was about then that Ken gave some interview, and he remarked that he didn't think very much of the quality of the code. LM: Did you agree with him? dmr: Well, I haven't really looked at the code, so I really have nothing to say except that [Ken] got enormous amounts of hate mail for being quoted. Of course the quote was really out of context in any event. So not only do I want to avoid that, but I also really had nothing to base this on one way or the other. One thing I do see is that locally--within a 45 second radius of my office, as opposed to other parts of Lucent--people have picked up on FreeBSD. I'm not sure exactly why. There are pleny of Linux fans in Lucent, even though there's a fair amount of corporate pressure to use Windows. (end of quote) I'm not trying to read anything into this quote that isn't there, and it's clear that dmr is trying to avoid upsetting anybody. Still, it's interesting that he mentions FreeBSD exactly in that context. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 1 15: 2:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6368037B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:02:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=82bfbadd66bf3fc214a6510ad46878e0) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15GpNM-0000VH-00; Sun, 01 Jul 2001 16:07:32 -0600 Message-ID: <3B3F9F23.FF02A317@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 16:07:31 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630235936.A90173@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010701060843.017bfee8@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chip Morton blathered: > > At 03:48 AM 7/1/2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >The one thing in that letter that I thought was interesting is the > >reference to _stealing_ BASIC, I haven't seen that one before. Is this the story relating how Bill Gates stole the BASIC interpreter from Dartmouth University to create the original Microsoft BASIC? It's true, sort of, but what the license on the original BASIC code was. It was well accepted at the time that Microsoft BASIC was what we'd now call a "port" of the original PDP-11 (IIRC) BASIC interpreter to run on the 8080. > >That should have got your warning flag set because when Microsoft > >was releasing BASIC for the PC, (and S-100 CP/M I believe) the code BASIC for the PC came LONG after the original BASIC-80, which ran on bare machines, CPM, and TRS-DOS. Microsoft later supplied BASIC interpreters for other CPUs, including the 6502 on the Apple ][ and later Commodore machines and the 6809 on the Radio Shack Color Computer. I think they wrote the cartridge basic for the TI-99 also, but I'm not certain of that. > >for that was all handwritten assembly language. If he had > >developers that did get a public domain assembly language version > >of BASIC they would have had to extensively modify it for whatever > >computer they wanted to run it on, and in the S-100 days there > >wasn't a "standard" for a computer like we understand the PC > >Standard of today, so this claim of stealing BASIC is pretty much > >bogus. It's not at all bogus, Bill Gates threw an (in)famous fit at a bunch of computer users at an early user group meeting, claiming people were stealing his code. At the time, I doubt many of them thought they were stealing, since everyone else involved with little computers shared their code openly. > >(IBM as many other computer manufacturers, like Commodore, > >also released BASIC rom code and there wasn't any attribution to > >Microsoft in it) IBM didn't because their size allowed them to negotiate away the Microsoft name in those days. You saw no mention of Microsoft in any of the PC-DOS code or prompts, either, but it was still the same as QDOS, er, MS-DOS. > Actually, the BASIC used on the Commodore 64 and VIC-20 was licensed from > Microsoft. It said so in the startup screen. The C-64 and VIC-20 came very late in the life of Commodore. The PET and CBM machines had a basic interpreter that was unrelated to Microsoft. > This was perhaps the first > time I'd ever heard of Microsoft. But my understanding is that it was > ported to many different microcomputers. There wasn't such an effort to > "lock" users into one platform since Microsoft hadn't yet established a > presence of it's own. To do so would have made no sense, since Microsoft didn't yet have a platform to lock people onto. Life was more complicated, and yet so much better, in those days. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 1 15:17:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from beastie.saturn-tech.com (beastie.saturn-tech.com [207.229.19.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A15537B401 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:17:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by beastie.saturn-tech.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f61MHPJ72649; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 16:17:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) X-Authentication-Warning: beastie.saturn-tech.com: drussell owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 16:17:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Doug Russell To: Wes Peters Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? In-Reply-To: <3B3F9F23.FF02A317@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Wes Peters wrote: > was. It was well accepted at the time that Microsoft BASIC was what > we'd now call a "port" of the original PDP-11 (IIRC) BASIC interpreter > to run on the 8080. ... > later Commodore machines and the 6809 on the Radio Shack Color > Computer. I think they wrote the cartridge basic for the TI-99 also, > but I'm not certain of that. The BASIC interpreter on the TI-99/4 or /4A was built in. You just had more memory available if you had a cartridge in the slot. :) I don't think Microsoft wrote that BASIC, but I'm not certain either. I've got all my TI-99/4A documentation around here somewhere. Now I've become curious and I want to go look it up. :) > To do so would have made no sense, since Microsoft didn't yet have a > platform to lock people onto. Life was more complicated, and yet so > much better, in those days. So very much better.... Later...... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 7:26:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D744A37B408 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:26:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15H4f7-0006un-00; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:26:53 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f62EQnJ18307; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:26:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:26:49 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Dirk Myers Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com>; from dirkm@teleport.com on Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 01:23:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | There's *no* license that can trump the rights of the copyright | holder. There's *no* license that can allow someone who doesn't own | the copyright to close off the code. But licenses which meet the | Open Source definition (let alone the Free Software definition) don't | allow the copyright holder to revoke the permissions in the license. So what you are saying, then, is that 'Free Software' in the FSF definition is not just GPL'ed, but also has the copyright signed over to the FSF so they can 'insure' that the code will remain forever GPL'ed? If so, that is damn scary. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 7:28:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F57B37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 07:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f62ESQb86559 ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:28:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA05809 ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:28:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:28:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Doug Russell Cc: Wes Peters , Technical Information , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010702162824.C4896@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3B3F9F23.FF02A317@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from drussell@saturn-tech.com on Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:17:25PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Russell said on Jul 1, 2001 at 16:17:25: > > On Sun, 1 Jul 2001, Wes Peters wrote: > > > was. It was well accepted at the time that Microsoft BASIC was what > > we'd now call a "port" of the original PDP-11 (IIRC) BASIC interpreter > > to run on the 8080. > ... > > later Commodore machines and the 6809 on the Radio Shack Color > > Computer. I think they wrote the cartridge basic for the TI-99 also, > > but I'm not certain of that. > > The BASIC interpreter on the TI-99/4 or /4A was built in. You just had > more memory available if you had a cartridge in the slot. :) > > I don't think Microsoft wrote that BASIC, but I'm not certain either. > I've got all my TI-99/4A documentation around here somewhere. There is a Bill Gates BASIC story that predates Microsoft by a few years. This was an interpreter he and Paul Allen (both teenagers at the time) wrote for the MITS Altair (and was a pretty significant achievement for that machine). And his famous "letter to hobbyists" was aimed at the hobbyists who'd bought the Altair and also copied the paper tape containing his interpreter, which he'd sold to MITS under some royalty agreement. It's described quite colourfully in Steven Levy's book "Hackers", for instance. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 8: 2:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6159537B406 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b104.otenet.gr [195.167.121.232]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f62F2PK19427; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:02:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f62F2N902762; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:02:23 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:02:23 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: j mckitrick Cc: Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:26:49PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:26:49PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > | There's *no* license that can trump the rights of the copyright > | holder. There's *no* license that can allow someone who doesn't own > | the copyright to close off the code. But licenses which meet the > | Open Source definition (let alone the Free Software definition) don't > | allow the copyright holder to revoke the permissions in the license. > > So what you are saying, then, is that 'Free Software' in the FSF definition > is not just GPL'ed, but also has the copyright signed over to the FSF so > they can 'insure' that the code will remain forever GPL'ed? If so, that is > damn scary. Yup. Thats the idea. See what Stallman has said for XEmacs [ quote taken from XEmacs site, URL: http://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html ] The FSF Point of View Richard Stallman writes: XEmacs is GNU software because it's a modified version of a GNU program. And it is GNU software because the FSF is the copyright holder for most of it, and therefore the legal responsibility for protecting its free status falls on us whether we want it or not. This is why the term "GNU XEmacs" is legitimate. But in another sense it is not GNU software, because we can't use XEmacs in the GNU system: using it would mean paying a price in terms of our ability to enforce the GPL. Some of the people who have worked on XEmacs have not provided, and have not asked other contributors to provide, the legal papers to help us enforce the GPL. I have managed to get legal papers for some parts myself, but most of the XEmacs developers have not helped me get them. I think that pretty much explains what *is* and *it not* GNU software. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 8:10:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74DB37B405 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15H5Lk-0008Jr-00; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:10:56 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f62FAts19027; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:10:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:10:55 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr>; from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 06:02:23PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | But in another sense it is not GNU software, because we can't | use XEmacs in the GNU system: using it would mean paying a | price in terms of our ability to enforce the GPL. Some of the | people who have worked on XEmacs have not provided, and have | not asked other contributors to provide, the legal papers to | help us enforce the GPL. I have managed to get legal papers | for some parts myself, but most of the XEmacs developers have | not helped me get them. | | I think that pretty much explains what *is* and *it not* GNU software. Well, that's a big piece of the puzzle, for me anyway. If the GPL can be removed by the copyright owner, maybe it's not so evil after all. 'Thanks for all your help and contributions, but I'm taking my ball and I'm going home.' Then you could keep two forks, one GPL and public, and one private and proprietay. And then not tell anyone you are sucking all the good stuff into your private version. Not bad. But the FSF doesn't want you to do that. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 8:14:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7666737B406 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shannon@daydream.shannon.net) Received: from [209.96.179.173] (helo=escape.shannon.net) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 15H5PQ-000PkL-00 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2001 11:14:45 -0400 Received: from daydream (daydream.shannon.net [192.168.1.10]) by escape.shannon.net (8.11.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f62Eseg06330 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shannon by daydream with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15H55y-0004Tq-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2001 10:54:38 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:54:38 -0400 From: Shannon Hendrix To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010702105437.A17119@widomaker.com> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Advocacy References: <20010630235936.A90173@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010701060843.017bfee8@threespace.com> <3B3F9F23.FF02A317@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B3F9F23.FF02A317@softweyr.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:07:31PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > BASIC for the PC came LONG after the original BASIC-80, which ran on > bare machines, CPM, and TRS-DOS. Microsoft later supplied BASIC > interpreters for other CPUs, including the 6502 on the Apple ][ and > later Commodore machines and the 6809 on the Radio Shack Color > Computer. I think they wrote the cartridge basic for the TI-99 also, > but I'm not certain of that. They also produced a BASIC for the Atari, but it never caught on. > To do so would have made no sense, since Microsoft didn't yet have a > platform to lock people onto. Life was more complicated, and yet so > much better, in those days. What is amazing about that time period is just how much code was often ported from one very different platform to another. At times it was one far superior platform to another even, or totally different architectures. And yet today, we hear people talking about how impossible that is, despite the task being much easier. One thing though, that was definitely not so much better, was only being able to use UNIX or VMS over a 300bps telephone line, on my 40-column vt52 emulator. I don't miss that part. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 8:24:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8D4137B403 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:24:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f62FOnb93291 ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:24:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA08365 ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:24:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 17:24:48 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 04:10:55PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick said on Jul 2, 2001 at 16:10:55: > > Well, that's a big piece of the puzzle, for me anyway. If the GPL can be > removed by the copyright owner, maybe it's not so evil after all. It cannot be "removed" by the copyright owner, but the copyright owner can dual-license it, or release an enhanced version under a different license. Examples: Troll Tech is currently dual-licensing Qt. Peter Deutsch has for many years released new versions of Ghostscript under a commercial license and a restrictive "free beer" license, and the license gets changed to GPL after 1 year. (He says he made enough money to retire on. He also says the problem with GPL was it did not adequately prevent commercial use by others.) Hans Reiser plans to dual-license ReiserFS and try to make money from that. However, the copyright owner can't withdraw code that is already out there under the GPL. The same is true of the BSD license; that's how OpenSSH came to exist. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 9:44:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7992E37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:44:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shannon@daydream.shannon.net) Received: from [209.96.185.52] (helo=escape.shannon.net) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 15H6oY-00068y-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:44:46 -0400 Received: from daydream (daydream.shannon.net [192.168.1.10]) by escape.shannon.net (8.11.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f62GJHg06987 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shannon by daydream with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15H6Pt-0004jv-00 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:19:17 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:19:17 -0400 From: Shannon Hendrix To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets not bash Windows or M$ at every opportunity {was: FreeBSD and Microsoft} Message-ID: <20010702121916.B17119@widomaker.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000f01c10126$10525220$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000f01c10126$10525220$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:32:33PM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > No, that's not it - the problem here is that every company in the Multimedia > game thinks that creating a proprietary media format is their ticket to > riches. If Microsoft had anything to say about it there would be only one > media format - they are just being dragged along like the rest of the users. They are just as much a part of the black-box data formats as anyone else. Microsoft has more than enough mind share to force a single media format if they wanted to, or to force them to be open. In fact, their one media format idea is wmv files. They are evil, totally black box, and the conversion tools are one-way only. I think if you want to make a data format standard, it should be completely open, or it's not really a standard. > Frankly, I fail to see what is so exciting about Multimedia on a PC anyway. It's useful for creating your own movies, and editing home movies. Lot's of people can use things like that. Yet another reason why black-box data formats are bad. I can't even see a lot of clips that friends send me. Even I like to watch the occasional movie trailer, or home movie from a friend. Most of the time I can't. Recently, there is a new program called mplayer, which the author has written to use Microsoft DLLs, and it works pretty well. I have been able to watch movie trailers, videos from friends, and game cut scenes. Unfortunately, some of my Windows-using friends create files in Microsoft's wmv format which it cannot handle so far. It seems to be Linux only right now, but I don't know that all output options it uses need Linux. For example, it has an XFree DRI driver. > me that so far the only people that have ever built a sustainable business > model with multimedia are the porno sites. Perhaps that is who is really > secretly funding all of the development on the new streaming video formats > because there's nobody else in the business that is making any money doing > it. I actually worked for a company where we set up streaming audio for news information, and the servers were running FreeBSD. This was around 1996 I think. It seems like we got the rights to do some NBA games too, and they might have had video. In any case, it was all a mess and didn't really work that well. Even if streaming audio/video were perfect, I would still rather just buy a CD/DVD and have a local copy for most things. > Actually the sums probably would get larger because if you bust up one big > company you get several smaller ones all of whom are competing with each > other and so they all now have to pay the congresspeople to lobby against > each other. It depends on how it works out. I was only joking anyway: Congress has more than enough table money from people other than Microsoft that they could do without. I think a breakup of Microsoft should be more than just a simple split. I think each division should be geographically seperated. Internet or not, companies tend to diverge when divisions are seperated by distance. > I don't think that anyone can quite imagine what will happen if in the next > 5 years Microsoft is back in anti-trust court again, but I can say that > nobody then will stick their necks out for them. I rather they just died on their own myself. It would be better that way than to have Uncle Sam come down on them again. If people would use their head, they government would never have had to do anything in the first place. > Their fate is equivalent to the criminal who was about to be executed in the > electric chair, and in the final hour the governor pardoned them. If they > so much as step out of line again, they are dead. I would like to think so, because they are going far, far out of line already. If you are right, they should not have long to live. -- shannon@widomaker.com _________________________________________________ ______________________/ armchairrocketscientistgraffitiexistentialist "There's music along the river For Love wanders there, Pale flowers on his mantle, Dark leaves on his hair." -- James Joyce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 11:51: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9413A37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 11:50:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stox@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: (from stox@localhost) by stox.sa.enteract.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f62IooW06918 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 13:50:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from stox) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 13:50:50 -0500 (CDT) Organization: Imaginary Landscape, LLC. From: "Kenneth P. Stox" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Another article mentioning FreeBSD and Microsoft Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20010702/tc/ms_attacks_open_source_1.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 12:20:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from internet.simplifiedtechnology.com (internet.simplifiedtechnology.com [207.21.31.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B56437B401; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from GregoryC@stcinc.com) Received: from stcinc.com ([10.2.1.2]) by internet.simplifiedtechnology.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f62JPZo61141; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B40CC8A.4DEFA40F@stcinc.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 12:33:30 -0700 From: Gregory Carvalho Reply-To: GregoryC@stcinc.com Organization: Simplified Technology Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: www@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Oh, man, Microsoft supports FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Microsoft's FreeBSD Move Aimed At Next Generation Of Developers" By Paula Rooney, CRN, Redmond, Wash. 5:07 PM EST Wed., June 27, 2001 http://www.crn.com/sections/BreakingNews/breakingnews.asp?ArticleID=27727 -- Cordially, Gregory Carvalho GregoryC@stcinc.com Simplified Technology Company http://www.stcinc.com In God I Trust! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 15:11:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214EA37B405 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA110B; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:17:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3B40F184.E5284347@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:11:16 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick wrote: > It seems the GPL became relevant more than ever with the advent of an > everyman's Unix in the face of a dominant, evil software empire. A radical > solution for an overwhelming problem. It is being contended that the BSD > license is too altruistic, ignoring market motivations and expecting the > best when we have seen that most companies do not operate that way. GPL: "Software should not be owned" Reality: "It is legally impractical, if not impossible, not to own software." BSD: "Here's the next best thing" Speaking of "market motivations", you are forgetting that every economic transaction has at least two participants acting of their own free will. Do not discount the motivations of the guy putting his software under the BSD license. It is every bit as economically valid and rational as those guys using the GPL, or EULA. If I were running a software company under intense competition from my rivals, and desired to go open source, I might choose the GPL. But I would not be so foolish or dishonest as to consider it "giving" or even "sharing" the software. It would be more like loaning the software with every expectation of receiving interest on it. So what is the BSD license good for, if it isn't good at being a stick to whack your competitors over the head with? It makes a great license for standard reference works. It's great for guys who just want to share their code. It's ideal for hobbyists, academics and anyone else not in commercial software development. The BSD license has every one of the benefits of Open Source, with next to none of the drawbacks. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 15:17:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E08137B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA1418; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:24:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3B40F306.E09332D3@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 15:17:42 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick wrote: > So what you are saying, then, is that 'Free Software' in the FSF definition > is not just GPL'ed, but also has the copyright signed over to the FSF so > they can 'insure' that the code will remain forever GPL'ed? If so, that is > damn scary. The FSF only requires transfering ownership to the FSF in cases of official *GNU* software. Any software under the BSD license, no matter who holds the copyright, is considered Free by the FSF. The goal of the FSF in urging people to use the GPL is not to protect the software. Microsoft could do all sorts of horrible things to their copy of FreeBSD, but your copy and mine will still be there untouched. Instead, the goal of the FSF is to eventually make *ALL* software Free Software. The GPL helps in this goal because all derivatives have to be under the GPL as well. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 16: 1:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.salesforce.com (nat-63-150-46-70.salesforce.com [63.150.46.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96EF37B401 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 16:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Received: from ggongws (ggong-ws.internal.salesforce.com [10.0.15.25]) by mx1.salesforce.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f62MwPR11834; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <008f01c1034a$8190d3a0$190f000a@ggongws> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "j mckitrick" , References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:58:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG A few other points.. 1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a lot of money to charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). As much as I like the idea of free software, when the man has given say $100 Million to fight Aids, $1 billion to the United Negro College Fund, $750 million to support immunization of children in the poorest countries, etc etc (see http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/grantlist.asp?mode=&search= ) I have a hard time seeing him as "the single most disgusting person in the entire world". There's a lot more to this world than software.. 2) What some people are realizing, and some have long known, but hasn't been mentioned yet on this thread is that basically, "Free Software", or "Open Source Software" (these phrases all mean different things to different people now) cannot truly be killed. Ie take some of the software which Microsoft has "killed", Lotus and Wordperfect. They both had to be acquired by other companies because they could no longer sustain themselves. Microsoft "killed" them by essentially forcing them out of business. Projects such as Linux and FreeBSD cannot be forced out of business, as long as there are volunteers working on them, they still live. Even when no one works on the project, as long as the code is archived somewhere, it has the opportunity to be ressurrected someday when the need returns.. 3) I do not believe there is any evidence that Microsoft is "controlling" BSD, nor that they are attempting to. Heh, they'd have to contribute to BSD to even have a chance of "controlling" it, something the same person said they are loathe to do.. Gilbert ----- Original Message ----- From: "j mckitrick" To: Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 9:47 AM Subject: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > I'm curious to get some thoughts on this. Just when i am convinced BSD is > doing great, i get concerned by material like this. Is this just FUD? > > It seems the GPL became relevant more than ever with the advent of an > everyman's Unix in the face of a dominant, evil software empire. A radical > solution for an overwhelming problem. It is being contended that the BSD > license is too altruistic, ignoring market motivations and expecting the > best when we have seen that most companies do not operate that way. > > Please, someone give me some sound reasoning that can clear the air of this > FUD. > > > > Jonathon > -- > Microsoft complaining about the source license used by > Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 18:43:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtpf.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpf.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FE7B37B40A for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:43:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 19714 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 01:43:42 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpf.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 3 Jul 2001 01:43:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 29063 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 01:43:41 -0000 Received: from du207.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.207]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 3 Jul 2001 01:43:41 -0000 Message-ID: <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 21:40:16 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > > So what you are saying, then, is that 'Free Software' in the FSF definition > > is not just GPL'ed, but also has the copyright signed over to the FSF so > > they can 'insure' that the code will remain forever GPL'ed? If so, that is > > damn scary. > > Yup. Thats the idea. See what Stallman has said for XEmacs > [ quote taken from XEmacs site, URL: > http://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html ] > > The FSF Point of View > > Richard Stallman writes: > > XEmacs is GNU software because it's a modified version of a > GNU program. And it is GNU software because the FSF is the > copyright holder for most of it, and therefore the legal > responsibility for protecting its free status falls on us > whether we want it or not. This is why the term "GNU XEmacs" > is legitimate. > There seems to be a hidden clause in the GPL, that requires anyone who incorporates any GNU code in their program, or uses any GNU code to build their program, or ships any GNU code with their program, to call their program "GNU ". How long before Stallman starts talking about "GNU FreeBSD"? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 19:25: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3A637B403 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:25:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stox@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: (from stox@localhost) by stox.sa.enteract.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f632Ou200792; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 21:24:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from stox) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <008f01c1034a$8190d3a0$190f000a@ggongws> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 21:24:56 -0500 (CDT) Organization: Imaginary Landscape, LLC. From: "Kenneth P. Stox" To: Gilbert Gong Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 02-Jul-01 Gilbert Gong wrote: > A few other points.. > 1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a lot of money to > charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). As much as I > like the idea of free software, when the man has given say $100 Million to > fight Aids, $1 billion to the United Negro College Fund, $750 million to > support immunization of children in the poorest countries, etc etc > (see http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/grantlist.asp?mode=&search= ) I > have a hard time seeing him as "the single most disgusting person in the > entire world". There's a lot more to this world than software.. This is a very recent phenomenon in Mr. Gates career. Until 1997, or so, his charitible contributions ( outside of donating copies of Microsoft products to schools ) were virtually zero. It seems that his wife has been a very strong driving force behind his increased charitable efforts. It is good to see something worthwhile finally emerging from the wealth he has accumulated. Percentage wise, it is still pretty small. Does the total of his charitable contributions even exceed the interest on his fortune? -Ken Stox stox@imagescape.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 19:33:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97E537B403 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f632XiW99563; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:33:43 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Kenneth P. Stox" Cc: Gilbert Gong , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010702193343.B99480@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <008f01c1034a$8190d3a0$190f000a@ggongws> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from stox@imagescape.com on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:24:56PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:24:56PM -0500, Kenneth P. Stox wrote: > > On 02-Jul-01 Gilbert Gong wrote: > > A few other points.. > > 1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a lot of money to > > charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). As much as I > > like the idea of free software, when the man has given say $100 Million to > > fight Aids, $1 billion to the United Negro College Fund, $750 million to > > support immunization of children in the poorest countries, etc etc > > (see http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/grantlist.asp?mode=&search= ) I > > have a hard time seeing him as "the single most disgusting person in the > > entire world". There's a lot more to this world than software.. > > This is a very recent phenomenon in Mr. Gates career. Until 1997, or so, his > charitible contributions ( outside of donating copies of Microsoft products to > schools ) were virtually zero. It seems that his wife has been a very strong > driving force behind his increased charitable efforts. It is good to see > something worthwhile finally emerging from the wealth he has accumulated. > Percentage wise, it is still pretty small. Does the total of his charitable > contributions even exceed the interest on his fortune? Lets hope that he chooses to emulate Andrew Carnegie. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 19:51:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FEB337B405 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: from ae01225.powerup.com.au (HELO warhawk) (203.147.160.225) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2001 02:51:52 -0000 X-Apparently-From: From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Subject: T Shirt idea Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 12:56:06 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was at the Cold Fusion 5 Brisbane launch yesterday, and one of the prizes they had there was a tshirt, on which command headers were printed upside down on the front and sleeves (So that it would look the right way up to the wearer) The back had a logo. Anyone want to take the initiative to make something like this for freebsd? ---- We can fly. We have wings, We can touch floating dreams, Call me from so far- Through the wind, in the light. ---- _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 2 20:44: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B534937B403 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:44:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010703034400.CHJD28041.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:44:00 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010702233853.017f5c80@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:43:48 -0400 To: FreeBSD Advocacy From: Technical Information Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? In-Reply-To: References: <008f01c1034a$8190d3a0$190f000a@ggongws> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm sure the threat of having his precious company dissected into little pieces didn't hurt his motivation to give either. I certainly believe that a lot of the motivation for the anti-trust case against Microsoft is the way Bill Gates is perceived--as a controlling, greedy dictator with the worst elements of Scrooge and Napoleon all rolled into one. In a world where we were accustomed to our barons being born of the oil and steel industries, it was hard to understand how some nerd writing and selling software could suddenly become the world's richest man. --Chip Morton At 10:24 PM 7/2/2001, you wrote: >This is a very recent phenomenon in Mr. Gates career. Until 1997, or so, his >charitible contributions ( outside of donating copies of Microsoft products to >schools ) were virtually zero. It seems that his wife has been a very strong >driving force behind his increased charitable efforts. It is good to see >something worthwhile finally emerging from the wealth he has accumulated. >Percentage wise, it is still pretty small. Does the total of his charitable >contributions even exceed the interest on his fortune? > >-Ken Stox > stox@imagescape.com > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 2: 3:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D6C37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f63914l31795; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Gilbert Gong" , "j mckitrick" , Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:01:03 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c1039e$b0327f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <008f01c1034a$8190d3a0$190f000a@ggongws> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Gilbert Gong >Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:58 PM >To: j mckitrick; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > >A few other points.. >1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a lot of money to >charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). As much as I >like the idea of free software, when the man has given say $100 Million to >fight Aids, $1 billion to the United Negro College Fund, $750 million to >support immunization of children in the poorest countries, etc etc >(see http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/grantlist.asp?mode=&search= ) I >have a hard time seeing him as "the single most disgusting person in the >entire world". There's a lot more to this world than software.. > I hesitate to turn this into a religious argument, but I think you should reread The Little Drummer Boy or the story about the church bells that would ring only when a gift that was worthy was left (I forget the name of the story) or any number of giving stories like this. The point is that while giving to the community should be a regular part of people's lives, it's only when an individual devotes their entire being to the gift that it truly indicates a striving to touch God in the individual. While giving a billion dollars (note that the billion is spread over 20 years so the actual cost is 50 million a year and probably a lot less if it's operated like most trusts where investment revenue funds the trust) is splashy, if you will note most of the giving programs place a heavy emphasis on technology, indeed one of the basic premises of the foundation is that technology will solve the world's ills. It seems to me that there's a basic conflict of interest here because Microsoft derives it's revenue from technology sales. While it doesen't seem that the Foundation takes pains to discriminate against non-technology requests, they kind of leave those up to interested people in the community to do all the footwork. It's only the things that are directly related to technology that they spend time on and the bulk of the money in gifts seems to go to technology or education into technology. There's a seeding of future Microsoft sales here that should be obvious. Call me a hard-ass but I'd have a lot more respect for their giving if Bill Gates himself volunteered at least 4 hours a week, every week, dishing out soup in a soup kitchen, or assisting in a clinic, or otherwise directly working with the needy people, rather than simply having one of his employees peel off another million or two from the company coffers. After all he's so rich that he doesen't have to work a lick of time for the rest of his life, he's far more able to take 4 hours a week doing this than you or I who are wage slaves. It also might do wonders to improve his own morality, which frankly would do more to help the computer industry than any number of anti-trust lawsuits. Bill and Melinda may be giving, but on the other side of the door Bill is running a large corporation that is basically involved in criminal activities. There's a disconnect here between personal morality and how he conducts his business that should be obvious. If his personal giving would have a positive effect on his own morality then I'd applaud it, but I don't see any evidence of this - very likely because he himself is only connected to the administrative operations of their Foundation, and doesen't regularly devote personal time to the one-on-one work with the needy that he's funding. >Projects such as Linux and FreeBSD cannot be forced out of >business, as long >as there are volunteers working on them, they still live. Even when no one >works on the project, as long as the code is archived somewhere, it has the >opportunity to be ressurrected someday when the need returns.. > Unfortunately, archived code is pretty worthless after a short period of time. If you want, you can get any of the old UNIX BSD code that was run on the VAX or PDP's it's out there for purchase for the cost of the media. But, if a group was starting out from scratch to port one of the old distributions to the PC today, it would take an immense amount of effort. You probably could write it from scratch just as easily. Open Source can be killed, through neglect. For example, a number of Open Source device drivers in FreeBSD itself have already become extinct. (Ultrastor 14f, Seagate ST01, Intel Etherexpress16/3c507, etc.) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 2:30:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-104-161.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.104.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3214C37B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9C2A567B9F; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:30:16 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Fwd: NOIC powered by FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010703023016.A12350@xor.obsecurity.org> Reply-To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AhhlLboLdkugWU4S" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Forwarded message from owner-freebsd-announce@FreeBSD.ORG ----- >From owner-freebsd-announce@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jul 3 02:05:25 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-announce@freebsd.org Received: from mail.cs.ait.ac.th (mail.cs.ait.ac.th [192.41.170.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45EF37B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:05:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from on@cs.ait.ac.th) Received: from banyan.cs.ait.ac.th (on@banyan.cs.ait.ac.th [192.41.170.5]) by mail.cs.ait.ac.th (8.11.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f6399jp83339 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:09:45 +0700 (ICT) Received: (from on@localhost) by banyan.cs.ait.ac.th (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11456; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:05:22 +0700 (ICT) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:05:22 +0700 (ICT) Message-Id: <200107030905.QAA11456@banyan.cs.ait.ac.th> X-Authentication-Warning: banyan.cs.ait.ac.th: on set sender to on@banyan.c= s.ait.ac.th using -f From: Olivier Nicole To: freebsd-announce@freebsd.org Subject: NOIC powered by FreeBSD Hello, This may not be the right loist, but I wanted to make you know that during Networks Thai 2001 exhibition, held in Bangkok, August 2-5 2001, we will set-up a network, connecting all exhibitors booth to the Internet. Part of the Network Operation Center (NOC) will be powered by FreeBSD. If you need some information for a press book, please let me know, web of the exhibition is: http://www.networksthai.com/ If you have some kind of propaganda that I could use, please let me know too, the NOC will be accessible to public. Best regards, Olivier ----- End forwarded message ----- --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7QY0CWry0BWjoQKURAic9AJ41pYJBcWITT8De8BK7SCMBNWA9AACdGTfs RrcEDPh9Y4Ce2DWMYhqeoOs= =wX+V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 2:48:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D5D37B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f639kul32021; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:46:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Shannon Hendrix" , Subject: RE: Lets not bash Windows or M$ at every opportunity {was: FreeBSD and Microsoft} Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:46:55 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c103a5$188a79a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010702121916.B17119@widomaker.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Shannon Hendrix >> media format - they are just being dragged along like the rest >>of the users. > >They are just as much a part of the black-box data formats as anyone >else. Microsoft has more than enough mind share to force a single media >format if they wanted to, or to force them to be open. > I don't know that now they could - it would be quite monopolistic and the regulators wouldn't like that. >It depends on how it works out. I was only joking anyway: Congress has >more than enough table money from people other than Microsoft that they >could do without. > >I think a breakup of Microsoft should be more than just a simple split. >I think each division should be geographically seperated. Internet or >not, companies tend to diverge when divisions are seperated by distance. > I think that actually where the anti-trust trial is headed we will see something like this happen. I suspect it will take the form of the government regulators requiring divestiture of some product lines and those lines will be bought by Microsoft competitors who aren't located nearby. > >> Their fate is equivalent to the criminal who was about to be >executed in the >> electric chair, and in the final hour the governor pardoned >them. If they >> so much as step out of line again, they are dead. > >I would like to think so, because they are going far, far out of line >already. If you are right, they should not have long to live. > When I was saying died in this context I should have explained it because I was being more figurative than literal. They won't die in the sense that the company will go bankrupt, I don't think. What will die is their MO of doing business. If they get hauled into trust court again I think we will see the court become so exasperated that not only will they issue tremendous fines but they will split the company 6 ways to Sunday and bar Bill Gates, and Steve Ballmer, and the rest of the upper exec staff from even owning stock in any of the divested portfolios. In short, Microsoft will become a shadow of their former self. As it is right now, we still have all the rats in one trap, which actually gives some advantages to the regulators as it's easier to keep an eye on what they are doing. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 3: 3:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8D537B405 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f63A37l32091; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Kenneth P. Stox" , Subject: RE: Another article mentioning FreeBSD and Microsoft Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:03:07 -0700 Message-ID: <003001c103a7$5bd82c00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is just a rehash of stories that have already run last week, there's nothing new here. One of the Linux e-rags already covered the trial license, and in fact the URL on the Microsoft site that pointed to the trial license and was listed in the Linux article has already gone to 404 status. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Kenneth P. Stox >Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 11:51 AM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Another article mentioning FreeBSD and Microsoft > > > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20010702/tc/ms_attacks_open_source_1.html > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 3:15:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138EB37B405 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:15:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f63ADg503856; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:13:42 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Shannon Hendrix , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets not bash Windows or M$ at every opportunity {was: FreeBSD and Microsoft} Message-ID: <20010703031342.A3641@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20010702121916.B17119@widomaker.com> <002901c103a5$188a79a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <002901c103a5$188a79a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:46:55AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:46:55AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: [ DELETED ] > They won't die in the sense that the company will go bankrupt, I don't > think. > What will die is their MO of doing business. If they get hauled into trust > court again I think we will see the court become so exasperated that not > only will they issue tremendous fines but they will split the company 6 ways > to Sunday and bar > Bill Gates, and Steve Ballmer, and the rest of the upper exec staff from > even owning stock in any of the divested portfolios. In short, Microsoft > will become a > shadow of their former self. As it is right now, we still have all the rats > in one trap, which actually gives some advantages to the regulators as it's > easier to keep an eye on what they are doing. I disagree. If microsoft ever get dragged back into court on anti-trust charges they will do the same as they did this time and IBM did before them. Just stall & delay in court and pour money into the election campaign of the party, There is only one, and wait till a more business friendly administration comes to power. Then they will plea bargain the charges down to being rude in public and walk away scot free. The money they spent on lawyers will be written off on their taxes and they will continue on their merry way. Bottom line; the chance to nail microsoft has slipped away. There is no way the Bush administration is going to press forward with this. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 3:36:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ggong.harvestberkeley.org (ggong.baycis.com [209.133.107.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8D237B40A for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Received: from ggongw2k (adsl-64-166-95-42.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.166.95.42]) by ggong.harvestberkeley.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f63AXHW56482; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <001301c103ab$928400e0$2a5fa640@ggongw2k> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "j mckitrick" , References: <001401c1039e$b0327f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 03:33:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Gilbert Gong" ; "j mckitrick" ; Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:01 AM Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Gilbert Gong > >Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 3:58 PM > >To: j mckitrick; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > > > > >A few other points.. > >1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a lot of money to > >charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). As much as I > >like the idea of free software, when the man has given say $100 Million to > >fight Aids, $1 billion to the United Negro College Fund, $750 million to > >support immunization of children in the poorest countries, etc etc > >(see http://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/grantlist.asp?mode=&search= ) I > >have a hard time seeing him as "the single most disgusting person in the > >entire world". There's a lot more to this world than software.. > > > > I hesitate to turn this into a religious argument, but I think you should > reread The Little Drummer Boy or the story about the church bells that > would ring only when a gift that was worthy was left (I forget the name > of the story) or any number of giving stories like this. The point is > that while giving to the community should be a regular part of people's > lives, it's only when an individual devotes their entire being to the > gift that it truly indicates a striving to touch God in the individual. I'll see if I can look up those stories though, I have never read them, but I would probably find them worthwhile. So it's a stretch to relate this back to -advocacy, but why not try? In the end, I do not think any of our "public" sentiments should have any form of personal attack to them. As they say about BSD Advocacy, or lack thereof, we don't really have any big spokesperson, and therefore no one to accidentally make comments that the media can take out of context and cause all sorts of ruckus. With the increased media attention, I think it behooves us to be ready to give answers to the questions we may be asked, that are more palatable to the public. Many of us have varied and strong opinions. That is great and wonderful. But, well I'm starting to ramble. Sorry, I have a point but I do not know myself what it is. At some point though, someone will be coming back to FreeBSD, and asking "So what do you think of all this attention Bill Gates and Microsoft is suddenly giving to FreeBSD?" And you know this person is going to be doing their best to evoke some sort of negative, detractory, or snide comment from whoever they are interviewing. And I think we should be ready, with an answer that we have given some thought to. [stuff cut] > technology or education into technology. There's a seeding of future > Microsoft sales here that should be obvious. Hm, didn't notice that ;) > Call me a hard-ass but I'd have a lot more respect for their giving if Bill > Gates > himself volunteered at least 4 hours a week, every week, dishing out soup in > a soup kitchen, or assisting in a clinic, or otherwise directly working with > the needy people, rather than simply having one of his employees peel off > another million or two from the company coffers. After all he's so rich > that he doesen't have to work a lick of time for the rest of his life, he's > far more able to take 4 hours a week doing this than you or I who are wage > slaves. It also might do wonders to improve his own morality, which frankly > would do more to help the computer industry than any number of anti-trust > lawsuits. Bill and Melinda may be giving, but on the other side of the door > Bill is running a large corporation that is basically involved in criminal > activities. There's a disconnect here between personal morality and how he > conducts his business that should be obvious. If his personal giving would > have a positive effect on his own morality then I'd applaud it, but I don't > see any evidence of this - very likely because he himself is only connected > to the administrative operations of their Foundation, and doesen't regularly > devote personal time to the one-on-one work with the needy that he's > funding. Give him time, I think as he gets older he'll become a better person. I would say, I am convinced there has been _some_ progress in his personal morality. That there could be more progress, no doubt. The same is true for all of us, I would be willing to say ;) The odd thing is, perhaps we need to hammer out what the "religious" aspect of FreeBSD is. What I mean is, for Stallman, ESR, and other GNU/Linux advocates, their attachment is very much a belief in the goodness and morality of their cause, and they are very vocal about it. While perhaps many BSD people have learned to be quiet, both as a matter of letting peace replace war, and because perhaps our belief also includes an attitude of "you do what you want, I'm not going to bother you," perhaps it is worthwhile to clearly explain the attitude behind the BSD license. Concretely, I suppose what I am thinking is (atleast as a start): If you browse the netbsd and openbsd sites, when you click on the links that describe how their OS is "free", you get pages such as: http://www.openbsd.org/policy.html http://www.netbsd.org/Goals/redistribution.html When you do the same for FreeBSD, you get: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/index.html I love that FreeBSD strives (in my interpretation) to let the code/license speak for itself. But what's good because I like it is not necessarily good for advocacy. Perhaps making real progress in advocacy means we need to have a clearer, bolder voice. Perhaps what we need is an "Advocacy Officer" or something. On the other hand, perhaps the slow, steady progress we have always been making, where we let our code speak louder than our words, has done just as good a job as anything else getting us where we want, in mindshare and whatnot. I don't know, and apologies for rambling :) > > >Projects such as Linux and FreeBSD cannot be forced out of > >business, as long > >as there are volunteers working on them, they still live. Even when no one > >works on the project, as long as the code is archived somewhere, it has the > >opportunity to be ressurrected someday when the need returns.. > > > > Unfortunately, archived code is pretty worthless after a short period of > time. > > If you want, you can get any of the old UNIX BSD code that was run on the > VAX or PDP's it's out there for purchase for the cost of the media. But, if > a group was starting out from scratch to port one of the old distributions > to the PC today, it would take an immense amount of effort. You probably > could > write it from scratch just as easily. > I'll take your word for it, as I don't intend to look at the old VAX BSD code anytime soon, nor to start from scratch on FreeBSD/VAX. ;) Gilbert > Open Source can be killed, through neglect. For example, a number of Open > Source > device drivers in FreeBSD itself have already become extinct. (Ultrastor > 14f, > Seagate ST01, Intel Etherexpress16/3c507, etc.) > > > Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com > Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide > Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 4: 5:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4215037B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:05:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f63B4El32229; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:04:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Cc: "Shannon Hendrix" , Subject: RE: Lets not bash Windows or M$ at every opportunity {was: FreeBSD and Microsoft} Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:04:14 -0700 Message-ID: <004201c103af$e50d51a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010703031342.A3641@mooseriver.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: Josef Grosch [mailto:jgrosch@mooseriver.com] >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:14 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Shannon Hendrix; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Lets not bash Windows or M$ at every opportunity {was: >FreeBSD and Microsoft} > > >On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:46:55AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >[ DELETED ] > >> They won't die in the sense that the company will go bankrupt, I don't >> think. >> What will die is their MO of doing business. If they get hauled >into trust >> court again I think we will see the court become so exasperated that not >> only will they issue tremendous fines but they will split the >company 6 ways >> to Sunday and bar >> Bill Gates, and Steve Ballmer, and the rest of the upper exec staff from >> even owning stock in any of the divested portfolios. In short, Microsoft >> will become a >> shadow of their former self. As it is right now, we still have >all the rats >> in one trap, which actually gives some advantages to the >regulators as it's >> easier to keep an eye on what they are doing. > > >I disagree. If microsoft ever get dragged back into court on anti-trust >charges they will do the same as they did this time and IBM did before >them. Just stall & delay in court and pour money into the election >campaign of the party, There is only one, and wait till a more business >friendly administration comes to power. Then they will plea bargain the >charges down to being rude in public and walk away scot free. The money >they spent on lawyers will be written off on their taxes and they will >continue on their merry way. Bottom line; the chance to nail microsoft has >slipped away. There is no way the Bush administration is going to press >forward with this. > I don't think that the Bush administration is in any position to either press forward or press against anything right now. Don't forget that they have a Democratic Senate against them, they didn't win the popular vote, and final analysis of the Florida vote indicates that who won is entirely dependent on what you consider a valid vote to be. Not only that but Bush stupidly kept all the campaign people that were involved with the vote in Florida on his staff, which simply reinforces the image (justified or not) that he engineered a theft of the election. It's a pretty toothless cat up there in the house. Senators aren't elected by the Electoral College. Although, actually, this makes it worse because government bureaucrats typically do nothing if they sense a power vacuum at the top. As far as IBM goes, I think that they are hardly an example to cite of a successful monopoly. Not many people call a business successful that had to write off a billion dollars of losses. Also, don't forget that AT&T was broken up on George Bush Senior's boss's watch, a man who was far more pro business than any Republican we've ever had in recent years. And, there was considerable popular opinion _against_ the AT&T breakup to boot, and the results of the breakup haven't delivered on the promise of competitive local dialtone, either. (and it was obvious this wouldn't happen to a blind monkey) They proceeded with that one when there was no obvious benefit to doing it, doing it was also unpopular, and there didn't appear to be anything broken to start with. With Microsoft, there's plenty of obvious benefits, it's about as popular as your going to see support for a breakup among the plebians, and it's obvious to a blind monkey what the problem is. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 5: 0:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB2937B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:00:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f63Bx1I04838; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 04:59:01 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Shannon Hendrix , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets not bash Windows or M$ at every opportunity {was: FreeBSD and Microsoft} Message-ID: <20010703045901.A4477@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20010703031342.A3641@mooseriver.com> <004201c103af$e50d51a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <004201c103af$e50d51a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:04:14AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:04:14AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Josef Grosch [mailto:jgrosch@mooseriver.com] > >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 3:14 AM > >To: Ted Mittelstaedt > >Cc: Shannon Hendrix; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >Subject: Re: Lets not bash Windows or M$ at every opportunity {was: > >FreeBSD and Microsoft} > > > > > >On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:46:55AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > >[ DELETED ] > > > >> They won't die in the sense that the company will go bankrupt, I don't > >> think. > >> What will die is their MO of doing business. If they get hauled > >into trust > >> court again I think we will see the court become so exasperated that not > >> only will they issue tremendous fines but they will split the > >company 6 ways > >> to Sunday and bar > >> Bill Gates, and Steve Ballmer, and the rest of the upper exec staff from > >> even owning stock in any of the divested portfolios. In short, Microsoft > >> will become a > >> shadow of their former self. As it is right now, we still have > >all the rats > >> in one trap, which actually gives some advantages to the > >regulators as it's > >> easier to keep an eye on what they are doing. > > > > > >I disagree. If microsoft ever get dragged back into court on anti-trust > >charges they will do the same as they did this time and IBM did before > >them. Just stall & delay in court and pour money into the election > >campaign of the party, There is only one, and wait till a more business > >friendly administration comes to power. Then they will plea bargain the > >charges down to being rude in public and walk away scot free. The money > >they spent on lawyers will be written off on their taxes and they will > >continue on their merry way. Bottom line; the chance to nail microsoft has > >slipped away. There is no way the Bush administration is going to press > >forward with this. > > > > I don't think that the Bush administration is in any position to either > press forward or press against anything right now. Don't forget that they > have a Democratic Senate against them, they didn't win the popular > vote, and final analysis of the Florida vote indicates that who won is > entirely dependent on what you consider a valid vote to be. Not only that > but Bush > stupidly kept all the campaign people that were involved with the vote in > Florida on his staff, which simply reinforces the image (justified or not) > that he > engineered a theft of the election. It's a pretty toothless cat up there in > the house. Even though it appears to a lot of people that the Bush people pulled off a blood-less coup and their mandate is paper thin, if at all, it does not appear to be stopping them or even slowing them down. The pull out of the Kyoto (sp) accord is a case in point. > Senators aren't elected by the Electoral College. Although, actually, > this makes it worse because government bureaucrats typically do nothing > if they sense a power vacuum at the top. > > As far as IBM goes, I think that they are hardly an example to cite of a > successful monopoly. Not many people call a business successful that had > to write off a billion dollars of losses. That was then, this is now. In 1969 when IBM and DOJ got into it IBM was the big cheese in computers. The standing joke back then was that there was only 2 computer companies, IBM and every one else. They spent the 70's playing delay, delay, and then delay. The Reagan administration was not in office 2 weeks before DOJ ended the suit. Remember this was before the IBM PC and personal computers were CP/M things that only wackos like me played with. In 1986, a full 6 years after the suit ended, I was working for the Navy and dealing with Vaxen, Dec was the number 2 seller of computers with 1 billion in sales. IBM was number 1 with 8 billion in sales. I once meet a man who had been a lawyer for IBM during the anti-trust suit. He had spent 10 years, one fourth of his working life working on one law suit. After 10 years of litigation IBM walked away with hardly getting their hair mussed. IBM has gotten into trouble only in the last few years especially since the OS/2 disaster. Their troubles started long after the Reagan people shut down the anti-trust suit. > Also, don't forget that AT&T was broken up on George Bush Senior's boss's > watch, a man who was far more pro business than any Republican we've ever > had in recent years. And, there was considerable popular opinion _against_ > the AT&T breakup to boot, and the results of the breakup haven't delivered > on the promise of competitive local dialtone, either. (and it was obvious > this wouldn't happen to a blind monkey) They proceeded with that one when > there was no obvious > benefit to doing it, doing it was also unpopular, and there didn't appear to > be anything broken to start with. With Microsoft, there's plenty of obvious > benefits, it's about as popular as your going to see support for a breakup > among the plebians, and it's obvious to a blind monkey what the problem is. The AT&T breakup was long ago in a different time. The suit started after Watergate and people had a very different attitude about things then. One also need to remember that this was before the Reagan/Bush people spent 12 years packing the Federal judiciary with conservative, business friendly judges. The judge who ordered the breakup of AT&T was, if I remember right, a Johnson appointee. Either way this is a much different time and the judges who are presiding over this are a much more conservative bunch plus the Bush justice department under Ashcroft, and they don't come much more right wing than John Ashcroft, is herding this through the courts. I have even money says they negotiate this to another consent agreement even though the last one had a 10/10 warranty on it. That is, 10 feet or 10 seconds, which ever came first. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 5: 3:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3783137B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.139.34.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.139.34]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA13746; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B41B4A9.F95FE1FF@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 05:03:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick wrote: > > I'm curious to get some thoughts on this. Just when i am > convinced BSD is doing great, i get concerned by material > like this. Is this just FUD? > > It seems the GPL became relevant more than ever with the > advent of an everyman's Unix in the face of a dominant, evil > software empire. A radical solution for an overwhelming > problem. It is being contended that the BSD license is > too altruistic, ignoring market motivations and expecting > the best when we have seen that most companies do not > operate that way. > > Please, someone give me some sound reasoning that can clear > the air of this FUD. I've seen this "software commons" argument before. It was calimed to be a pro-GPL argument then, too. The problem is that it's not a commons unless it is egalitarian in permitting everyone equal rights to it; the GPL fails this test, since you can not use it in a commercial product, unless you "pay" with your source code that you add. If you have to pay for it, in any way, shape, or form, then it is not part of a "commons". I've seen people suggest that reference implementations should be GPL'ed before, as well. The problem with that approach is that unless the reference work can be used in a product, it will not drive a standard. For products that are to be sold commercially, a "look, but you must write your own code" reference is worse than useless. If TCP had been released under the GPL, we would all be talking SPX and IPX instead of TCP and UDP today, since there would not have been the money in it for a Cisco or any of the other companies that built the Internet. Likewise, publically funded developement (e.g. DARPA or other government funded research) must be usable by all of the public, including that part of the public that pays the vast majrity of the taxes from which that funding is drawn: corporations. I was really very disappointed with the NSA security extensions to Linux, since it made the code inherently a derivative work of the Linux kernel, and thus GPL'ed. I've noticed a significant correlation between people with objectivist philosophies and support of the GPL as a means of stopping other people from acting like the objectivist philosophy claims they will act, without any controls on their actions to curb their "natural selfish nature". I think most of these people should have waited until they had at least two years of college under their belts before they were permitted to read "Atlas Shrugged": they don't seem to understand that the characters in the book aren't real, and are actually charactricures, in the same way as Socialist government paintings of Stalin, looking up and into the future. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 5:36:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430DB37B40D for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15HPQ0-000Njg-00; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:36:40 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f63Cadh36473; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:36:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:36:39 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010703133639.E35349@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B41B4A9.F95FE1FF@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B41B4A9.F95FE1FF@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:03:53AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | The problem is that it's not a commons unless it is | egalitarian in permitting everyone equal rights to it; | the GPL fails this test, since you can not use it in | a commercial product, unless you "pay" with your source | code that you add. Ah, good point. | I've seen people suggest that reference implementations | should be GPL'ed before, as well. The problem with that | approach is that unless the reference work can be used | in a product, it will not drive a standard. For products What about ReiserFS, JFS, and the recently released IBM Java source code for it's servers? I forget the details behind the IBM server,but several companies have done this: "Here OS community, work on this" or "Here is our top-secret code, play with it all you want, but we keep the results." | funding is drawn: corporations. I was really very | disappointed with the NSA security extensions to Linux, | since it made the code inherently a derivative work of | the Linux kernel, and thus GPL'ed. I can almost understand Mundie's tirade, at least on this specific point, that public funds were used to develop something that cannot be used commercially. Well, it *can* but it cannot be enhanced without giving back. | nature". I think most of these people should have waited | until they had at least two years of college under their | belts before they were permitted to read "Atlas Shrugged": I only read the post-apocalyptic book she wrote. I forget the name, but it was similar to '1984' but with stronger individual vs society overtones. It was the inspiration (or one of them, I believe) for Rush's 2112 album of the same theme. | they don't seem to understand that the characters in the | book aren't real, and are actually charactricures, in the | same way as Socialist government paintings of Stalin, | looking up and into the future. I had the opportunity to study Russian when I was a kid, and one of the genuine Russian school books was fascinating. It went from 'A is for Apple' to 'L is for Lenin' in about 20 pages. By then, the student was expected to be able to understand the political dissertation that followed just below the picture. :-) Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 7:16: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6362D37B405 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:16:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f63EEMa57285; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:14:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B41D337.964D3C1A@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 08:14:15 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gilbert Gong Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , j mckitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <001401c1039e$b0327f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <001301c103ab$928400e0$2a5fa640@ggongw2k> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >A few other points.. > > >1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a lot of money > to > > >charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). As much as >[snip] > > lives, it's only when an individual devotes their entire being to the > > gift that it truly indicates a striving to touch God in the individual. > Well said, Ted. Regardless of whether one believes the Christian story, you are talking about the essence of humanity as a common species. [snip] > [stuff cut] > > technology or education into technology. There's a seeding of future > > Microsoft sales here that should be obvious. > > Hm, didn't notice that ;) > Most of Bill Gates' contributions are not cash, they are copies of Doze and Word. There's an earlier example that's applicable. Andrew Carnegie was a ruthless bastard in his youth, but many people said he had a change of heart when he started being philanthropic. In actuality, his endowments of Jesuit teachers' colleges and other educational institutions -- before there was ANY other alternative -- have done more to create the modern dependency training factories (aka 'public schools') that we (Americans) all pay for. He (and J.P.Morgan, Henry Ford, and Rockefeller, Sr.) realized that they could not build their industrial empires if they could not guarantee that people would be gullible enough to buy their products and scared and dependent enough to accept the jobs and working conditions that they offered. We see now the results of 6 generations of public schooling, and it's very telling that modern schools spend more time concerned with nail files, pictures of army men, and masturbation training than they do with anthropology and economics and our Constitution. Relating this back to advocacy [:-)], there's another educational example that applies. In 1970, Ed Nagel founded the Santa Fe Community School here in New Mexico. It's one of what are called 'free schools', whose philosophy is that kids learn best when they follow their interests. He has been villified and hounded by the Board of Education and the NM State establishment for 30 years, including trumped-up lawsuits, smears, and invasions by jackbooted thugs. Here's a comment from him in a recent letter: <> Not really: "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." The War is never over; only the battlefields change (and the troops). My point is that here again the right of parents to educate their children as they see fit is again under fire, this time on a national level. The Party (As Ted says, there is only one two-headed monster) has given us an 'education reform' bill that's the worst of both sides' proposals, and the only thing it will accomplish is to solidify even further the centralized control of power. As believers in the Cause that we the people can create and maintain a common base of software that is beyond the control of government or economic power, we must realize that we will constantly be under assault. "The War is never over..." and the weapons constantly change as well as the battlefields and troops. Each of us holds the torch of FreeBSD in our hearts (sorry, getting mushy!), and each has the right to speak his/her convictions. More than that, we _each_ have the moral obligation to speak and live our convictions. I'm glad we don't have a Linus or a Stallman. I'm glad (as well as saddened) that Jordan is moving on, because he was the one the media were looking to to speak for us. The reality is that FreeBSD is worthy precisely because it is a collection of many individuals who cooperate to make it happen. The media can't stand that, because we're not entertaining and that's all they live for any more. That doesn't make us unworthy. I'm glad Microsoft is noticing us; they even spelled our name right. FreeBSD is a lot like the Libertarian Party. Nader and Buchanan got a lot of press, but Libertarians have more and more people on the ballot every year, and we're the ones who scare the GOP the most because we are building from a solid base of committed activists... just like FreeBSD. FreeBSD is surviving and growing because it works and because the project model works. I'm not a core team coder, but I buy CDs and DaemonNews and I'm using FreeBSD and Apache to build my business to the point where I can support someone who _is_ a core team coder someday. We all play our little part, and all of our enlightened self-interests together move the project forward in the ways that we all benefit the most. That's how life SHOULD be. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 8:22:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AC637B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=83bd04c6321bbbf488b70459e174b07a) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15HS3d-0000ht-00; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:25:45 -0600 Message-ID: <3B41E3F9.53F9EEC6@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:25:45 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Thomas M. Sommers" wrote: > > There seems to be a hidden clause in the GPL, that requires anyone who > incorporates any GNU code in their program, or uses any GNU code to > build their program, or ships any GNU code with their program, to call > their program "GNU ". How long before Stallman > starts talking about "GNU FreeBSD"? There is no such clause in the GPL, and there is an explicit disclaimer on code produced by GCC. Comments like this are really not helpful; no knee- jerk reaction ever is. XEmacs is a somewhat customized version of GNU Emacs, reusing a lot of code written for GNU Emacs. If you don't understand the concept of "derived work", I'm certain there are a number of books and or web sites that can explain the concept to you. XEmacs is a work derived from GNU Emacs, while FreeBSD is not derived from GNU code. FreeBSD is shipped with a number of GNU tools because they are good, working tools that FreeBSD users and developers find useful and necessary. It is quite possible (and relatively simple) to produce a minimal running FreeBSD system that includes no GNU (or other GPL) code, which is needed by the embedded companies that are a significant part of the FreeBSD community. These companies typically use GNU tools, GCC, GAS, etc., to build their software, and quite often use other GNU tools like Emacs or XEmacs as well. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 8:33:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832D537B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:33:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B844F3610 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:33:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Subject: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I posted this over on -chat and only received one response. The FreeBSD Mall has temporarily been replaced by BSD Central. A subset of the previously available merchandise is for sale at BSD Central. The problem I have is that BSD Central sells FreeBSD 4.3 for $39.95 while their alter ego, Linux Central, sells it for $29.95. I know Walnut Creek is gone, but who is in charge here? It's obvious to me that WindDrivel has no intention of any FreeBSD advocacy - they just wanted the code. It's sad to watch something grow and then just fall to pieces as a result of corporate greed or stupidity... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 8:47:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4661C37B407 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 32BAC55407; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D8F51610; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:32:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Eric Wayte Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2001-07-03, Eric Wayte scribbled: # I posted this over on -chat and only received one response. # # The FreeBSD Mall has temporarily been replaced by BSD Central. A subset # of the previously available merchandise is for sale at BSD Central. The # problem I have is that BSD Central sells FreeBSD 4.3 for $39.95 while # their alter ego, Linux Central, sells it for $29.95. Ouch... I think I might sign up for the FreeBSD subscription over at Daemon News Mall (they also have OpenBSD, NetBSD and Darwin subscriptions). The regular FreeBSD 4.3 release runs for $35.00 (I know... It's more than Linux Central), but a FreeBSD subscription runs for $25.00 (dunno if that's for all four CDs or not). # I know Walnut Creek is gone, but who is in charge here? It's obvious to # me that WindDrivel has no intention of any FreeBSD advocacy - they just # wanted the code. # # It's sad to watch something grow and then just fall to pieces as a result # of corporate greed or stupidity... -- Linh Pham [lplist@closedsrc.org] // 404b - Brain not found To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 8:59:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A02637B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f63FxBa72246; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:59:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B41EBC8.BCDFF40@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:59:04 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linh Pham Cc: Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Linh Pham wrote: > > On 2001-07-03, Eric Wayte scribbled: > > # I posted this over on -chat and only received one response. > # > # The FreeBSD Mall has temporarily been replaced by BSD Central. A subset > # of the previously available merchandise is for sale at BSD Central. The > # problem I have is that BSD Central sells FreeBSD 4.3 for $39.95 while > # their alter ego, Linux Central, sells it for $29.95. > Remember that your $$$ go to support the FreeBSD Project. Selling CDs is one avenue of support for the widgets and legalisms the Project requires. I doubt that will change with WR. > Ouch... I think I might sign up for the FreeBSD subscription over at > Daemon News Mall (they also have OpenBSD, NetBSD and Darwin > subscriptions). > > The regular FreeBSD 4.3 release runs for $35.00 (I know... It's more > than Linux Central), but a FreeBSD subscription runs for $25.00 (dunno > if that's for all four CDs or not). > Yes it is... you're charged each time a RELEASE gets shipped. > # I know Walnut Creek is gone, but who is in charge here? It's obvious to > # me that WindDrivel has no intention of any FreeBSD advocacy - they just > # wanted the code. > # > # It's sad to watch something grow and then just fall to pieces as a result > # of corporate greed or stupidity... > I think it's too early to tell on that score. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 9:22:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C1737B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:22:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15HSwL-000EUk-00; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:22:17 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f63GMGt40275; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:22:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 17:22:16 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Wes Peters Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:20:52AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | Yes, the copyright holder by definition holds the right to specify how | copies can be made an used. That's what "copy" "right" means. | | A complication for open source projects: if you have accepted contributions | of code (bug fixes, new features, etc) from others, and have not specified | that all contributions become your property, you may not be able to issue | the code under a new license without getting the permission of all of the | contributors. This is why the FSF asks for copyright assignment for the GNU | tools; it allows them to control (prevent) the issuance of the code under | other licenses. It's a great idea if you can get your contributors to do | it. Tell me if I have this right: BSD-licensed code may be used for anything, but requires the permission of the copyright owner to change the licensing terms. GPL-licensed code is subject to GPL terms as long as the copyright owner keeps it under that license. They may change this at any time. Does this mean the existing code does or does NOT continue to be under the terms of the original license before it was changed? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 9:31:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A165D37B405 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f63GV4b11525 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:31:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA65319 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:31:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:31:04 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: Wes Peters , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010703183103.C40756@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , Wes Peters , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:22:16PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Tell me if I have this right: > > BSD-licensed code may be used for anything, but requires the permission of > the copyright owner to change the licensing terms. No. Anyone, including Microsoft, can use BSD code and use their own licensing terms on it, provided they keep to the pretty unrestrictive BSD license terms which applied to them (no liability, etc). > GPL-licensed code is subject to GPL terms as long as the copyright owner > keeps it under that license. They may change this at any time. No again. The copyright owner can change the license on newly-released code, but can't revoke the license on the GPL code that's already out there, except by physically squashing out every physical copy of GNU Tar (for instance) that anyone has ever received under the GPL. Once you have it under GPL you can distribute it under GPL. > Does this mean the existing code does or does NOT continue to be under the > terms of the original license before it was changed? Suppose you give me program A. If you own the copyright to program A, *you* can give it to anyone else under a different license. If the license I got it under was BSD, I can change the license and redistribute it. If it was GPL, I can't change the license but I can still redistribute it. Meanwhile you as copyright owner can still give it to someone else under a different license. However, whether it was BSD or GPL, once you have given it to me you can't change your mind and stop me from redistributing it. (At least, that's the idea, but it's never been tried in court, I think.) If the FSF releases GPL v3, for instance, nobody is forced to use that on the existing code which is already there under GPL v2. However, the standard GPLv2 allows users the option to "upgrade" the license. (There are exceptions like the linux kernel which may be distributed only under GPL v2.) - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 10: 2:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DACD37B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f63H2Mb14761 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:02:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA66516 ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:02:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:02:22 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Wes Peters Cc: j mckitrick , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010703190222.D40756@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Wes Peters , j mckitrick , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:20:52AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters said on Jul 3, 2001 at 10:20:52: > > A complication for open source projects: if you have accepted contributions > of code (bug fixes, new features, etc) from others, and have not specified > that all contributions become your property, you may not be able to issue > the code under a new license without getting the permission of all of the > contributors. This is why the FSF asks for copyright assignment for the GNU > tools; it allows them to control (prevent) the issuance of the code under > other licenses. Actually, if multiple people hold copyright, a license change can be made only if all copyright holders agree. If the FSF holds the copyright to a part of the code, that's enough to prevent license changes, in theory. The official reason for the copyright transfer policy is they think it is easier to enforce legally if the copyright status of the program is simple. (That is, it is easier in court to represent one copyright holder than a hundred. And there may be a legal problem with the latter, for example proving in court that all of them agree with you.) See, for example, http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl-faq.html#AssignCopyright http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/why-assign.html - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 10:50:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8B2C37B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:50:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA4780; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:56:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3B4205CD.51C186FD@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:50:05 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Thomas M. Sommers" wrote: > There seems to be a hidden clause in the GPL, that requires anyone who > incorporates any GNU code in their program, or uses any GNU code to > build their program, or ships any GNU code with their program, to call > their program "GNU ". How long before Stallman > starts talking about "GNU FreeBSD"? There is nothing in the GPL that says this, hidden or otherwise. However, this does not discount the fact that RMS wants all derivations of GNU software to be called GNU. Linux is most certainly *not* the GNU System, yet he wants it called GNU/Linux, LiGNuX, or whatever it is this year. He wants XEmacs called GNU XEmacs. As for naming a particular OS "GNU/FreeBSD", that has been suggested (in jest) already. RMS' response to it was (grossly paraphrased) "ridiculous". David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 11: 3:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23AC37B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:03:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA510F; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:10:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3B4208FC.6C9AB8F7@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:03:40 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kenneth P. Stox" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Kenneth P. Stox" wrote: > This is a very recent phenomenon in Mr. Gates career. Until 1997, or so, his > charitible contributions ( outside of donating copies of Microsoft products to > schools ) were virtually zero. I have heard the following from my conspiracy buddy friends. I have not taken the time to check out the veracity. Al Gore's daughter used to work (interned?) for Microsoft at the time the Microsoft was definitely in violation the Sporkin decree. Nothing was done while she worked there. In addition, Microsoft was one of the very few large corporations that did not contribute funds to political candidates. The wheels of the DOJ did not start turning until Al Gore's daughter left the company and Bill Clinton discovered that they hadn't paid protection money. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 11:14:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D0037B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:14:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f63IEhp07924; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:14:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:14:43 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: David Johnson Cc: "Kenneth P. Stox" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010703111443.B7799@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <3B4208FC.6C9AB8F7@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B4208FC.6C9AB8F7@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:03:40AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:03:40AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > "Kenneth P. Stox" wrote: > > > This is a very recent phenomenon in Mr. Gates career. Until 1997, or so, his > > charitible contributions ( outside of donating copies of Microsoft products to > > schools ) were virtually zero. > > I have heard the following from my conspiracy buddy friends. I have not > taken the time to check out the veracity. Al Gore's daughter used to > work (interned?) for Microsoft at the time the Microsoft was definitely > in violation the Sporkin decree. Nothing was done while she worked > there. In addition, Microsoft was one of the very few large corporations > that did not contribute funds to political candidates. The wheels of the > DOJ did not start turning until Al Gore's daughter left the company and > Bill Clinton discovered that they hadn't paid protection money. I'm not sure about Al Gore's daughter, this is the first time I'm hearing this but I am certain that microsoft contributed money in the last election cycle. The amount that was quoted in the San Jose Mercury news, was $8.5 million with 52% of that going to the republicans. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 11:22:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.dobox.com (mail.dobox.com [208.187.122.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 245B137B408 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:22:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@dobox.com) Received: (qmail 559 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 18:24:36 -0000 Received: from star.dobox.com (10.0.0.14) by spinoff.dobox.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2001 18:24:36 -0000 From: Wes Peters Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:23:56 GMT Message-ID: <20010703.12235600@star.dobox.com> Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? To: j mckitrick Cc: Wes Peters , Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , =?US-ASCII?Q?Dirk?= Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: Mozilla/3.0 (compatible; StarOffice/5.2;Linux) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick wrote: > | Yes, the copyright holder by definition holds the right to specify h= ow > | copies can be made an used. That's what "copy" "right" means. > | > | A complication for open source projects: if you have accepted=20 contributions > | of code (bug fixes, new features, etc) from others, and have not=20 specified > | that all contributions become your property, you may not be able to = issue > | the code under a new license without getting the permission of all o= f=20 the > | contributors. This is why the FSF asks for copyright assignment for= =20 the GNU > | tools; it allows them to control (prevent) the issuance of the code = under > | other licenses. It's a great idea if you can get your contributors = to=20 do > | it. > Tell me if I have this right: > BSD-licensed code may be used for anything, but requires the permissio= n=20 of > the copyright owner to change the licensing terms. No. The BSD license allows distribution under any terms, including more= restrictive license, as long as the terms in the BSD license (give=20 credit, retain copyright message) are adhered too. For instance, Microsoft is=20 allowed to include BIND in Windows 2000. > GPL-licensed code is subject to GPL terms as long as the copyright own= er > keeps it under that license. They may change this at any time. The copyright holder can re-issue the code under another license, becaus= e he/she/they hold the "right" to "copy." He/she/they cannot "take back" the code already distributed under the GPL (or BSD license). > Does this mean the existing code does or does NOT continue to be under= =20 the > terms of the original license before it was changed? You can only change the license terms if all parties agree. You seem to= be completely and utterly misunderstanding the entire conversation here.= If I develop a program called "foo" and release it under the GPL, that version of "foo" is available under the GPL forever. I can't take it=20 back because the act of releasing it under the GPL constituted a contract=20 between myself and anyone who obtained it. Under the GPL, others who downloaded= =20 it may share it with anyone they wish, under the terms of the GPL. I want to separately sell my "foo" program to Microsoft under a differen= t license, I can do so. Say, for instance, I allow them to make=20 binary-only distributions. These are two separate contracts, they are separate=20 issues under the law. Now, say Rahul sends me some patches that fix a problem in the GPL=20 version of "foo". Do I have the right to incorporate those patches into the=20 version I sell to Microsoft? Not without Rahul's permission; he has a=20 "reasonable expectation" that his patches are convered under the same GPL license as= the code he worked on. If I insist that all contributors to "foo" assig= n copyright for their contributions to me, then I do have the right to sel= l (or give) those changes to Microsoft. If I issue "foo" under the BSD license, this issue is a moot point,=20 because Rahul has a resaonable expectation his patches will be placed under the = BSD license, which would allow me, Microsoft, or anyone else to adopt them=20 and use them in a binary-only distribution. Does this help? -- Wes (please forgive any formatting bogons, I'm trying out a new mailer.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 11:31:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD38E37B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:31:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA61CF; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:37:40 -0700 Message-ID: <3B420F72.67E70447@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 11:31:14 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B41B4A9.F95FE1FF@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > I've seen this "software commons" argument before. > It was calimed to be a pro-GPL argument then, too. > > The problem is that it's not a commons unless it is > egalitarian in permitting everyone equal rights to it; > the GPL fails this test, since you can not use it in > a commercial product, unless you "pay" with your source > code that you add. It is unfortunate that the "commons" analogy made its way into common [sic] economic thinking. It is more unfortunate that the GPL supporters have latched on to it. "Commons" is intended to be some property held in common by all people. Look up "commons" in a history book instead of an economic text and you get a vastly different picture. If you take the analogy to its logical conclusion, then RMS is a feudal lord and his users are unfree serfs. I seriously doubt that this is the perception of the Movement he intended. > I've noticed a significant correlation between people > with objectivist philosophies and support of the GPL as > a means of stopping other people from acting like the > objectivist philosophy claims they will act, without any > controls on their actions to curb their "natural selfish > nature". I've noticed that too, and it bugs the s**t out of me. I am not an objectivist, but I at least understand what objectivism is. The philosophies of RMS are in direct opposition to the philosophies of Ayn Rand. You can't get much further away from objectivism than the core ideas of the FSF. GNUism (for lack of a better word) is founded on altruism, community, and the non-ownership of software, while objectivism is founded on self-interest, individualism, and the ownership of property. It is entirely possible that one could derive copyleft from objectivist premises, but I have yet to see anyone do so. The FSF spends a lot of time talking about freedom, and so do objectivists. For an objectivist that doesn't look further than the rhetoric, it is easy to see objectivism in the infocommunitarianism(*) of RMS. David (*) No, you won't find that word in the dictionary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 11:57:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A39437B401 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 11:57:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15HVMe-000Hzu-00; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:57:36 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f63IvXX42507; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:57:33 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:57:32 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Wes Peters Cc: Wes Peters , Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010703195732.A42423@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703.12235600@star.dobox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010703.12235600@star.dobox.com>; from wes@dobox.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 12:23:56PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | > Does this mean the existing code does or does NOT continue to be under | the | > terms of the original license before it was changed? | | You can only change the license terms if all parties agree. You seem to | be completely and utterly misunderstanding the entire conversation here. I think I know what threw me off. It was the whole concept of why the FSF wants to be copyright holder. IIUC *now*, this is to make sure no one changes the license from the GPL, correct? Since there are no other copyright owners in this case, this is a given. FSF code will always remain under the GPL license, then. Isn't one of the arguments of the GPL that the author *could* make their GPL code available under separate license for proprietary use? | (please forgive any formatting bogons, I'm trying out a new mailer.) Which one? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 12: 2:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938E537B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 12:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA73F6; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 12:08:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3B4216AC.5835E156@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:02:04 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703.12235600@star.dobox.com> <20010703195732.A42423@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick wrote: > Isn't one of the arguments of the GPL that the author *could* make their GPL > code available under separate license for proprietary use? Yes it is. But only the author can do so. Even the FSF could release their stuff under a proprietary license if they wanted to. But this isn't different from any other license. Licenses are restrictions on the user and not on the author. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 12:12:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.dobox.com (mail.dobox.com [208.187.122.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 30CEF37B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 12:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@dobox.com) Received: (qmail 18690 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 19:14:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dobox.com) (10.0.1.29) by spinoff.dobox.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2001 19:14:15 -0000 Message-ID: <3B421AA2.6AA4A80D@dobox.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:18:58 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: DoBox Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; OpenBSD 2.7 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: Wes Peters , Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703.12235600@star.dobox.com> <20010703195732.A42423@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick wrote: > > | > Does this mean the existing code does or does NOT continue to be under > | the > | > terms of the original license before it was changed? > | > | You can only change the license terms if all parties agree. You seem to > | be completely and utterly misunderstanding the entire conversation here. > > I think I know what threw me off. It was the whole concept of why the FSF > wants to be copyright holder. IIUC *now*, this is to make sure no one > changes the license from the GPL, correct? Since there are no other > copyright owners in this case, this is a given. FSF code will always > remain under the GPL license, then. Under *some* GPL, then. It does give them carte-blanche to move code to newer, more restrictive licenses and to stop *their* maintenance of the older code. It does not allow them to take existing code distributed under GPL v2 or GPL v1 "off the market," but I doubt such code will last for long without the ongoing support of the FSF, or the GNU project. > Isn't one of the arguments of the GPL that the author *could* make their GPL > code available under separate license for proprietary use? Yes, and they occasionally do. Most will bark if you wave enough money at them. I strongly suspect the FSF won't. > | (please forgive any formatting bogons, I'm trying out a new mailer.) > > Which one? StarOffice. It does work with IMAP-SSL, but the user interface is glacial. (Big surprise). -- Boats love me Sails fear me Wes Peters System Architect http://www.dobox.com/ DoBox Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 18:19: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCBD37B405 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stox@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: (from stox@localhost) by stox.sa.enteract.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f641Irv08924; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 20:18:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from stox) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <003001c103a7$5bd82c00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 20:18:52 -0500 (CDT) Organization: Imaginary Landscape, LLC. From: "Kenneth P. Stox" To: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: RE: Another article mentioning FreeBSD and Microsoft Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-Jul-01 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > This is just a rehash of stories that have already run last week, > there's nothing new here. One of the Linux e-rags already covered > the trial license, and in fact the URL on the Microsoft site that > pointed to the trial license and was listed in the Linux article > has already gone to 404 status. Yes, it is a rehash, but, it may be useful as a reference to someone trying to convince their management to look at FreeBSD. To the typical IT manager, I think ZDnet will have a little more weight than one of the Linux rags. Maybe it is time to start a new list, freebsd-news, with the sole purpose publicizing references to FreeBSD instead of congesting the -advocacy list. I think this would be a useful resource for many in marketing FreeBSD to their management, staff, and customers. -Ken Stox stox@imagescape.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 19:21:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.ocsny.com (apollo.ocsny.com [204.107.76.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4D8837B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:21:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mikel@ocsinternet.com) Received: from webmail2 (webmail2.ocsny.com [204.107.76.198]) by apollo.ocsny.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA43901 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:21:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mikel King" To: Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 22:21:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <001401c1039e$b0327f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've been reading this perticlar thread for a while now, and have acurious observations. I've been doing this for quite sometime now, and the majority of clients that I deal with could give a rat's ass about licensing, or operating systems for that mater. All they care about is if they are able to work on their data, in some sort of familiar application. It's not to say that the typical enduser is stupid, I've just observed that they unlike most of us, do not care. I've been foruntae enough to have a variety of machines available and have recently conduct a little experiment with some of my clients where I let them use my fBSD laptop to access their windows apps via citrix...after a few minor bumps whalha they were rather proficient (well from an enduser stand point anyway). So where am I going with this tangent? Truthfully I am not exactly sure...but I know that StarOffice is very good albeit a bit slow, and of course WP is pretty good as well. The problem is I haven't had much luck convincing the average windows user to switch over (I am still working on it though...) Is it possible that this .NET thing could give BSD a chance to have that one thing that even linux does not? I am also left wondering if it is possible that through their assymilation of Hotmail they learned an ounce of respect for fBSD? Of course what concerns me most about this is what if I were to develope a competing .NET application that turned out to be better than theirs. What's to say that they couldn't revoke their license to kill my product? Ok I must go and fsck my brain for a bit, it's been a rather long day... cheers, mikel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 3 23:31:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70EF237B403 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f646UHl34775; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:30:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Eric Wayte" , Subject: RE: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 23:30:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Eric Wayte >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:33 AM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral > > >I posted this over on -chat and only received one response. > >The FreeBSD Mall has temporarily been replaced by BSD Central. A subset >of the previously available merchandise is for sale at BSD Central. The >problem I have is that BSD Central sells FreeBSD 4.3 for $39.95 while >their alter ego, Linux Central, sells it for $29.95. > >I know Walnut Creek is gone, but who is in charge here? The users are in charge, and always have been. To put it simply, the only "piece" of FreeBSD that WindRiver got when they bought BSDi is a marketing name (Walnut Creek) which most of the FreeBSD users who _aren't_ FTP'ing the ISO images and are buying CD's, are obtaining their FreeBSD CD's from. If WindRiver gets on the ball and keeps fulfilling CD orders, why then this name might continue to be worth something. Otherwise, it will go away and the FreeBSD CD distributions will simply take place through other distributors. This in some ways is even more desirable because as long as Walnut Creek was around, there was no demand for FreeBSD distributions at places like Linux Central, thus those places didn't even carry it. Is it _bad_ for a Linux CD distributor to be selling FreeBSD copies? No, and it also gives the Project more advertising. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 0:11:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C423737B403 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f647BAl34854; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:11:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mikel King" , Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:11:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c10458$7f6149c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mikel King >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 7:22 PM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > >I've been reading this perticlar thread for a while now, and have acurious >observations. > > I've been doing this for quite sometime now, and the >majority of clients >that I deal with could give a rat's ass about licensing, or operating >systems for that mater. All they care about is if they are able to work on >their data, in some sort of familiar application. > :-) Quite true - this is why the Software Publishers Association was formed, and when SPA publically disagreed with Microsoft, they broke from it and formed the BSA which does the same thing. It's an eternal battle for the software publishers to convince end users _to_ give a ratt's ass about licensing. I suspect that the fingerprinting/serialization/activation scheme that Windows XtraProfit will carry is going to convince quite a lot of clients to give quite a lot of shits about software licensing in quite a bit of hurry. What your seeing is the last sunset of the Age of Aquarius in PeeCee software. Up until now the market was subtly instructed to Pay No Attention To That Software License Behind The Curtain. We have 20 years of this and an entire generation has grown up believing that PC software is freely copyable and licensing is this academic discussion to be ignored. I see this doublespeak all the time when people start yapping about the "true cost of Windows" and comparing a site of Winblows systems to a site of something else, and always coming up with Windows the cheapest thing. Of course it's the cheapest thing, dammit, if 3/4 of the installs are pirated copies and your desktop support people can nuke and repave with impunity. > It's not to say that the typical enduser is stupid, I've >just observed that >they unlike most of us, do not care. If Microsoft continues with their subscription/serialization plans like they are threatening, then this is going to change quicker than you think. I've been foruntae enough to have a >variety of machines available and have recently conduct a little experiment >with some of my clients where I let them use my fBSD laptop to access their >windows apps via citrix...after a few minor bumps whalha they were rather >proficient (well from an enduser stand point anyway). > > So where am I going with this tangent? Truthfully I am not exactly >sure...but I know that StarOffice is very good albeit a bit slow, and of >course WP is pretty good as well. The problem is I haven't had much luck >convincing the average windows user to switch over (I am still >working on it >though...) Is it possible that this .NET thing could give BSD a chance to >have that one thing that even linux does not? > No, there's no question that .NET is just another "Embrace and Extend" attempt by Microsoft to lock an enterprise site into Windows. I think that you have to give it a few years more. Eventually the day will come where the large enterprise is going to have to make a choice: either run Windows and every year pay a $100-per-desktop fee to Microsoft, or run Linux/FreeBSD and give up the ability of the end user to randomly-loaded, unapproved Windows software on their desktop. For many of the largest corporations, they are already actively seeking ways to force a "standard" desktop configuration out to all employees, that the employees cannot tamper with. But, there is a lot of resistance from the userbase because they have had 10 years of being able to RF their systems however they please. This is a political problem and once the ability to load illegal copies of Windows software with impunity is taken away, the big corporations are going to be a lot more interested in forcing their users out of the "general purpose desktop computer" mode because it will literally save them millions and millions of dollars in software licensing fees. > I am also left wondering if it is possible that through >their assymilation >of Hotmail they learned an ounce of respect for fBSD? > They already had that respect - the Windows Socket specification is just a copy of the BSD IP sockets spec. What I think they learned with Hotmail is that there's some jobs that the law of diminishing returns dictates Windows will never be used. It's been mentioned that they kept the FreeBSD systems because of BIND. Well, NT and 2K can do nameserving too - but it would take a prodigious amount of effort from Microsoft to optimize the 2K nameserver to get the performance they needed. Why spend all that money on 2K to do that when it's already done for you on FreeBSD? It's not like there's a shitpile of Windows customers that are buying 2K just to field nameservers, after all. It was different for optimizing the Windows webserver - there's tons of people buying Winblows systems to run webservers, so they concentrated on what their customers wanted to be doing. > > Ok I must go and fsck my brain for a bit, it's been a >rather long day... > You really need to .sig that line. ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 0:13:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6407C37B403 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f647DUl34873; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "David Johnson" , "Kenneth P. Stox" Cc: Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:13:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c10458$d43d39e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <3B4208FC.6C9AB8F7@acuson.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Gates has made no secret of his belief that government needs to stay the fuck out of High Tech. If he were contributing to poliical causes, doing that effectvely undercuts his hands-off arguement Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of David Johnson >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 11:04 AM >To: Kenneth P. Stox >Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > >"Kenneth P. Stox" wrote: > >> This is a very recent phenomenon in Mr. Gates career. Until >1997, or so, his >> charitible contributions ( outside of donating copies of >Microsoft products to >> schools ) were virtually zero. > >I have heard the following from my conspiracy buddy friends. I have not >taken the time to check out the veracity. Al Gore's daughter used to >work (interned?) for Microsoft at the time the Microsoft was definitely >in violation the Sporkin decree. Nothing was done while she worked >there. In addition, Microsoft was one of the very few large corporations >that did not contribute funds to political candidates. The wheels of the >DOJ did not start turning until Al Gore's daughter left the company and >Bill Clinton discovered that they hadn't paid protection money. > >David > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 0:40:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3272B37B403 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:40:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f647e7E15283; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:40:07 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: David Johnson , "Kenneth P. Stox" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010704004007.A15235@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <3B4208FC.6C9AB8F7@acuson.com> <000101c10458$d43d39e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <000101c10458$d43d39e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:13:30AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:13:30AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Bill Gates has made no secret of his belief that government > needs to stay the fuck out of High Tech. If he were contributing to > poliical causes, doing that effectvely undercuts his hands-off arguement According to the San Jose Mercury New, microsoft donated over $8 million to various election campaigns. The majority, 58%, went to Republican causes. Gates and company were busy buying political coverage in the last election cycle. Another example of do as I say not as I do. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 0:55:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41D837B405 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:55:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f647tGO15467 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:55:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:55:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200107040755.f647tGO15467@mooseriver.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: *BSD Counter Project Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG *BSD Counter Project http://www.bsdcounter.org http://www.bsd-counter.org The *BSD Counter project have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of *BSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how *BSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, *BSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bsdcounter.org Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, and the various BSD core group will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. * This site is an on-going project. Not everything is working. We are working very hard finish this project so please be patient. * Currently the "Register Yourself" page is working. The "Correct Your Entry" is currently broken but it should be fixed by the next time this notice comes out. Don't bother with the "Register a Machine" page. We are still working on the database layout of that. * We welcome the opportunity to work with the principles / leaders / dictators-for-life of the various BSD groups. Please feel free to contact us. We are working on a standard API to integrate your registration efforts with ours. * If you need to contact us, send email to jgrosch@mooseriver.com This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.3 2001/07/04 07:50:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 8:58: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD9D37B406 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:58:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010704155803.NVOL28041.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 08:58:03 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010704102824.017f8008@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 10:33:23 -0400 To: FreeBSD Advocacy From: Technical Information Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? In-Reply-To: <000001c10458$7f6149c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually, I've heard that Borland is going to be implementing a similar scheme in its next generation of development tools and require the user to register online or by some other means in order to get a key to run the software for more than a limited period of time. Your software then essentially becomes a very expensive time-limited shareware demo until you complete that process. Just as Microsoft led the Windows application industry away from version numbers (like 3.11, 4.0, 6.2a, etc.), I suspect that their legitimizing this new form of licensing will incite a lot of other companies to follow their lead. Hopefully they won't all start telling us that we'll have to renew those licenses every few years or so either. --Chip Morton At 03:11 AM 7/4/2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >It's an eternal battle for the software publishers to convince end users >_to_ give a ratt's ass about licensing. I suspect that the >fingerprinting/serialization/activation scheme that Windows XtraProfit will >carry is going to convince quite a lot of clients to give quite a lot of >shits about software licensing in quite a bit of hurry. > >Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com >Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide >Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 9: 7: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9473437B403 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:07:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f64G7Ca81001; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:07:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B433F23.D93C772E@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 10:06:59 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010704102824.017f8008@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Technical Information wrote: > > Actually, I've heard that Borland is going to be implementing a similar > scheme in its next generation of development tools and require the user to > register online or by some other means in order to get a key to run the > software for more than a limited period of time. Your software then > essentially becomes a very expensive time-limited shareware demo until you > complete that process. > > Just as Microsoft led the Windows application industry away from version > numbers (like 3.11, 4.0, 6.2a, etc.), I suspect that their legitimizing > this new form of licensing will incite a lot of other companies to follow > their lead. Hopefully they won't all start telling us that we'll have to > renew those licenses every few years or so either. > I'm sure they will stop supporting older versions, just as M$ doesn't support W3.1 or (hardly) W95. As soon as users get trapped into upgrading their Windows, all their old software becomes trash. This will be a Very Good Thing for platforms like ours, even though it will almost certainly tank our American economy. For example, Cadence bought OrCAD. They now want $2.5G a year from me for the "privilege" of receiving bugfixes for their low-end product, which cost me a total of $6G in the first place. Time to start looking at helping to write gEDA... -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 12:45:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C6937B401 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:45:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09772; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B43724B.7DDE171D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 12:45:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: Wes Peters , Wes Peters , Rahul Siddharthan , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> <20010703172216.F39318@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010703.12235600@star.dobox.com> <20010703195732.A42423@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick wrote: > I think I know what threw me off. It was the whole concept > of why the FSF wants to be copyright holder. IIUC *now*, > this is to make sure no one changes the license from the > GPL, correct? Since there are no other copyright owners in > this case, this is a given. FSF code will always remain > under the GPL license, then. They want an assignment of rights for several reasons; the one they claim, which is actually bogus, is to permit legal defense. It's bogus because the license is viral, and so applies to all derivative works, which include all contributions; therefore, they could act as a single litigant, representing a class in a class-action suit. Thus there is no need for the assignment for that purpose. The main reason they want an assignment of rights is to protect them from patents owned by the contributors; it would be easy to cripple commercial competitive ability of GPL'ed code by donating code that was covered by a patent, and then suing if the code ever competed with you. This is actually pretty bogus: it's the opinion of most intellectual property lawyers that including code under a patent in GPL'ed code distributed/donated by you constitutes a blanket license to use the patent in the context of the program. Further, they argue, that also extends to the U.C.C. prohibitions on differential pricing policies and discriminatory and predatory trade practices. If we translate that to English we get "If you license the patent to 'A' for one price, you must offer the same price to 'B'". This boils down to having to then license that patent for $0... thus destroying your intellectual property values. A secondary reason for assignment of rights is to permit the redistribution under another license, in the future. While I believe the FSF is ideologically opposed to any license changes, I also believe that it might be possible to put them into a tight financial corner, which would mean they could be forced to "use their assests". The reality is that it's far more likely intended to remove the "at the autor's option" clause for distribution under future versions of the GPL. Since the GPL is primarily intended as an instrumentality of "The GNU Manifesto", it's possible that a better instrumentality for social revolution could be devised, and the FSF wants to be able to move its code to that if it so chooses (in fact, there is such an instrumentality: the eCOS license actually better aligns with the goals of the "Manifesto": the GPL is comparatively a pretty poor instantiation). Finally, by assigning your rights in the code to the FSF, they ensure that your code _will not_ be released under another license, thus making their GPL'ed version of the code "the only game in town". This also explains the "emacs vs. xemacs" relationship: while they are not in control of xemacs developement, they can claim it's a derivative work of emacs, and maintain some rights control anyway; since it's GPL, the only threat is that someone may donate code to xemacs, and turn around and sell or donate it elsewhere under s different license. To do that, they's have to prove non-derivation. So there is an uneasy truce, with only occasional brush skirmishes. You have to realize that the GPL is an instrumentality, intended to achieve the social change sought by "The GNU Manifesto". It's not the best at doing this, but that is and was the intent of its author. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 13: 4:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4508C37B409 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0E63914; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 16:04:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It's bad when the official FreeBSD site has a link to the FreeBSD Mall, which directs the buyer to a site that sells FreeBSD at a discount to their Linux customers. Now maybe Linux/BSDCentral is offering it cheaper to the Linux folks as an enticement, I still haven't received an answer from them on this. Eric Wayte University DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > Is it _bad_ for a Linux CD distributor to be selling FreeBSD copies? No, > and it > also gives the Project more advertising. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 14: 8:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33B4A37B408 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.142.206.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.142.206]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02161; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B4385D2.7D0166A3@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 14:08:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikel King Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikel King wrote: > > I've been reading this perticlar thread for a while now, > and have acurious observations. > > I've been doing this for quite sometime now, and the > majority of clients that I deal with could give a rat's ass > about licensing, or operating systems for that mater. All > they care about is if they are able to work on their data, > in some sort of familiar application. I'm pretty sure they care about price and delivery dates. The BSD license allows a commerical company to "stand on the shoulders of giants", which means they can use the code to prepare a derivate work in less time, and therefore also at a lower price point, than they would otherwise be able to do. The GPL allows a commercial company to look at the code, and thus perhaps use it as a reference implementation to let them reimplement the code (probably not, though, since it won't push a standard unless everyone reimplements it in commercial products), but not to touch the code, due to their very reason for being. If I had to categorize the GPL being applied to things that rightly belong in the public domain, like NSA and DARPA funded research, I'd have to say "If I haven't seen as far, it's because I've been standing on the chests of prone midgets". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 4 18:36: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86D337B408 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 18:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=d5d38d46e27364a1d94882f642b9a4a8) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15HSuy-0000nc-00; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:20:52 -0600 Message-ID: <3B41F0E4.B55E6937@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:20:52 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: j mckitrick , Giorgos Keramidas , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <20010702161055.A18543@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702172448.I4896@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > j mckitrick said on Jul 2, 2001 at 16:10:55: > > > > Well, that's a big piece of the puzzle, for me anyway. If the GPL can be > > removed by the copyright owner, maybe it's not so evil after all. > > It cannot be "removed" by the copyright owner, but the copyright owner > can dual-license it, or release an enhanced version under a different > license. Yes, the copyright holder by definition holds the right to specify how copies can be made an used. That's what "copy" "right" means. A complication for open source projects: if you have accepted contributions of code (bug fixes, new features, etc) from others, and have not specified that all contributions become your property, you may not be able to issue the code under a new license without getting the permission of all of the contributors. This is why the FSF asks for copyright assignment for the GNU tools; it allows them to control (prevent) the issuance of the code under other licenses. It's a great idea if you can get your contributors to do it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 0:19:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA7937B420 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:19:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f657J9l37707; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Cc: "David Johnson" , "Kenneth P. Stox" , Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:19:09 -0700 Message-ID: <004a01c10522$c85ab7e0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010704004007.A15235@mooseriver.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, this was mentioned already. The point I was trying to make is that the Microsoft political campaigns only started up recently - right around the time that Gates stopped making his speeches about how technology and government shouldn't mix. (unless, of course, Government was purchasing software, in that case mixing was OK. ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Josef Grosch [mailto:jgrosch@mooseriver.com] >Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 12:40 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: David Johnson; Kenneth P. Stox; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > >On Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:13:30AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> Bill Gates has made no secret of his belief that government >> needs to stay the fuck out of High Tech. If he were contributing to >> poliical causes, doing that effectvely undercuts his hands-off arguement > >According to the San Jose Mercury New, microsoft donated over $8 million to >various election campaigns. The majority, 58%, went to Republican >causes. Gates and company were busy buying political coverage in the last >election cycle. Another example of do as I say not as I do. > > >Josef > >-- >Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 >jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 1: 8:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D557C37B403 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 01:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f6588Pl37803; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 01:08:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Technical Information" , "FreeBSD Advocacy" Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 01:08:25 -0700 Message-ID: <004e01c10529$aa956500$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010704102824.017f8008@threespace.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Technical >Information >Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 7:33 AM >To: FreeBSD Advocacy >Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > >Actually, I've heard that Borland is going to be implementing a similar >scheme in its next generation of development tools and require the user to >register online or by some other means in order to get a key to run the >software for more than a limited period of time. Your software then >essentially becomes a very expensive time-limited shareware demo until you >complete that process. > >Just as Microsoft led the Windows application industry away from version >numbers (like 3.11, 4.0, 6.2a, etc.), I suspect that their legitimizing >this new form of licensing will incite a lot of other companies to follow >their lead. Hopefully they won't all start telling us that we'll have to >renew those licenses every few years or so either. > Frankly, if they refrained from doing this there would be no point in setting up this kind of licensing to start with. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 8:17: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7646C37B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 08:17:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from acc@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.15.37] (helo=anthony.dsl.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 15IAsJ-0005qk-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2001 09:17:03 -0600 Received: (from acc@localhost) by anthony.dsl.xmission.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f65FIoN82086 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:18:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anthony@xmission.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:18:50 -0600 From: "Anthony C. Chavez" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another article mentioning FreeBSD and Microsoft Message-ID: <20010705091850.A81944@xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <003001c103a7$5bd82c00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from stox@imagescape.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:18:52PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:18:52PM -0500, "Kenneth P. Stox" wrote: [snip] > Maybe it is time to start a new list, freebsd-news, with the sole purpose > publicizing references to FreeBSD instead of congesting the -advocacy list. I > think this would be a useful resource for many in marketing FreeBSD to their > management, staff, and customers. This is a damn fine idea, if I don't say so myself. IMHO, advocacy.freebsd.org should be resurrected for this very purpose (and others). > -Ken Stox > stox@imagescape.com -- anthony@xmission.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ``The development of mathematics towards greater precision has led, as is well known, to the formalization of large tracts of it, so that one can prove any theorem using nothing but a few mechanical rules.'' -- Kurt Godel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 9:53:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE50037B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=2c7ad6fcdfac200e4dcb5bf404e4b5ca) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15ICQv-0000qG-00; Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:56:53 -0600 Message-ID: <3B449C54.EC88E204@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:56:52 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick wrote: > > | There's *no* license that can trump the rights of the copyright > | holder. There's *no* license that can allow someone who doesn't own > | the copyright to close off the code. But licenses which meet the > | Open Source definition (let alone the Free Software definition) don't > | allow the copyright holder to revoke the permissions in the license. > > So what you are saying, then, is that 'Free Software' in the FSF definition > is not just GPL'ed, but also has the copyright signed over to the FSF so > they can 'insure' that the code will remain forever GPL'ed? If so, that is > damn scary. No, that's exactly how license and copyright law work. If you write a book and then sign a contract with a publisher allowing them to make unlimited copies of your book, you cannot later decide you don't want them to publish it anymore and revoke that license, unless they agree. (You would be a fool to sign such a contract.) This is exactly what the GPL *and* the BSD license are, an unlimited license to copy your work. This doesn't infer any rights for others to copy any other works by you, including later revisions, but you can't go back and change the license terms on the version you sent out. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 10:48:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 151FB37B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15IDEb-0009eT-00; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:48:13 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f65HmB078324; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:48:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 18:48:11 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Wes Peters Cc: Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010705184811.A78227@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B449C54.EC88E204@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B449C54.EC88E204@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 10:56:52AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | > So what you are saying, then, is that 'Free Software' in the FSF definition | > is not just GPL'ed, but also has the copyright signed over to the FSF so | > they can 'insure' that the code will remain forever GPL'ed? If so, that is | > damn scary. | This is exactly what the GPL *and* the BSD license are, an unlimited license | to copy your work. This doesn't infer any rights for others to copy any other | works by you, including later revisions, but you can't go back and change | the license terms on the version you sent out. I thing my word choice obscured my intent: The FSF holds the copyright to insure that the PROJECT will remain forever GPL'ed. This is what I actually meant, I think. An author could release GPL'ed code, then a year later, release a new version binary only with a non-GPL license, or perhaps BSD licensed. While the originally GPL'ed code would remain such, the new code would not. So, as I understand it, the goal of the FSF is to make sure that the PROJECT continues to be GPL'ed, that no one can change the license on the PROJECT from that day forward... except for the FSF, of course. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 13: 3:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7598937B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f65K3jK25590 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:03:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 14:03:24 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Eric, you were right! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Looks like Eric Wayte was right in his premonition about Wind River screwing us over. Their freebsdmall website is now a link to something called BSD Central, and their phone box says 'Welcome to Linux Central'.... and of course nobody's in in Customer Service. I ordered a BSD Desktop direct from freebsdmall.com -- at full list -- because their (old) site claimed it would come with 4.3 CDs. Guess who's got another obsolete set of 4.1 CDs sitting on his hands? :-( -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 13:11:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from puke.reno.oemsupport.com (64-42-17-172.atgi.net [64.42.17.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C4D37B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:11:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pcalkins@oemsupport.com) Received: by puke.reno.oemsupport.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:11:14 -0700 Message-ID: <9B9CB6555E6BA049BC2B857E7711C24F2A04CF@puke.reno.oemsupport.com> From: Patrick Calkins To: 'Don Wilde' , "Freebsd-Advocacy (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Eric, you were right! Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:11:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a direct quote from their site: "Fulfillment for your order will be handled through Internet.com's bsdcentral.com website. Your credit card statement will show charges from Internet.com corp." In an on going effort to be the ultimate FreeBSD online merchandise provider, we are currently redesigning & updating FreeBSDMall.com to better serve you, our customer. In the interim, some products & services have temporarily become unavailable. We apologize for this inconvenience and hope you will bear with us. We are very excited about this opportunity to reinvent ourselves, and promise to bring forth lots of new FreeBSD products, personalized shopping capabilities and more! We hope you also look forward to better things when we return. So it just looks like they are getting the site ready for new stuff. Patrick # -----Original Message----- # From: Don Wilde [mailto:Don@Silver-Lynx.com] # Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 1:03 PM # To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org # Subject: Eric, you were right! # # # Looks like Eric Wayte was right in his premonition about Wind River # screwing us over. Their freebsdmall website is now a link to # something # called BSD Central, and their phone box says 'Welcome to Linux # Central'.... and of course nobody's in in Customer Service. # # I ordered a BSD Desktop direct from freebsdmall.com -- at full list -- # because their (old) site claimed it would come with 4.3 CDs. # Guess who's # got another obsolete set of 4.1 CDs sitting on his hands? :-( # -- # Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com # Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects # 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 # 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 # # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org # with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 13:46:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DBDD37B406 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:46:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F021342C; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:46:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Don Wilde Cc: Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! In-Reply-To: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It wasn't really a premonition, I was just at the FreeBSD Mall looking to buy 4.3 and noticed the disclaimer. I'm surprised no one else noticed the temporary change. At least the Slackware folks managed to obtain their stock from Walnut Creek and have now set up their own shop: store.slackware.com. Eric Wayte University DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Don Wilde wrote: > Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 14:03:24 -0600 > From: Don Wilde > To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Eric, you were right! > > Looks like Eric Wayte was right in his premonition about Wind River > screwing us over. Their freebsdmall website is now a link to something > called BSD Central, and their phone box says 'Welcome to Linux > Central'.... and of course nobody's in in Customer Service. > > I ordered a BSD Desktop direct from freebsdmall.com -- at full list -- > because their (old) site claimed it would come with 4.3 CDs. Guess who's > got another obsolete set of 4.1 CDs sitting on his hands? :-( > -- > Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com > Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects > 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 > 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 13:52:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8FA37B405 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:52:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f65KqjK32481; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:52:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B44D388.FA984095@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 14:52:24 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Wayte Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We'll see how they 'stand behind any investment you have made in our products'... but it's a royal pain. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 14: 3:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pendragon.tacni.net (mail.tacni.net [216.178.136.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F1B2037B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from needo@cerebro.superhero.org) Received: (qmail 37362 invoked by alias); 5 Jul 2001 21:03:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cerebro.superhero.org) (216.201.173.186) by ns2.sohos.net with SMTP; 5 Jul 2001 21:03:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 53947 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Jul 2001 21:04:22 -0000 Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 16:04:22 -0500 From: Erich Zigler To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! Message-ID: <20010705160422.B53859@superhero.org> Mail-Followup-To: Erich Zigler , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:03:24PM -0600 X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. X-Jacob: Hi Jacob! X-Shane: Hi Shane! Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:03:24PM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > I ordered a BSD Desktop direct from freebsdmall.com -- at full list -- > because their (old) site claimed it would come with 4.3 CDs. Guess who's > got another obsolete set of 4.1 CDs sitting on his hands? :-( I actually had something similiar happen to me. Two weeks ago I ordered a FreeBSD jacket. I get a call saying they only have XL and will no longer be manafacturing or receiving another shipment of them. Well, I can't wear XL, I fall in to the classification of the tall skinny pale computer guy. I was *not* pleased when I got that call. Dont sell goods on your website you know you cannot deliver. -- Erich Zigler There is more stupidity then hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life. -- Frank Zappa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 22:37:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B90537B401 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:37:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=b6d0ede976c566a21255abec6e1f965c) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15IONd-00008l-00; Thu, 05 Jul 2001 23:42:17 -0600 Message-ID: <3B454FB9.D2B9166E@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 23:42:17 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anthony C. Chavez" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another article mentioning FreeBSD and Microsoft References: <003001c103a7$5bd82c00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010705091850.A81944@xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Anthony C. Chavez" wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:18:52PM -0500, "Kenneth P. Stox" wrote: > > [snip] > > > Maybe it is time to start a new list, freebsd-news, with the sole purpose > > publicizing references to FreeBSD instead of congesting the -advocacy list. I > > think this would be a useful resource for many in marketing FreeBSD to their > > management, staff, and customers. > > This is a damn fine idea, if I don't say so myself. IMHO, > advocacy.freebsd.org should be resurrected for this very purpose (and > others). That's what daily.daemonnews.org is for. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 5 23:50:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF8437B401; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 23:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=b22a31b5cfc59a61e11caf12524d8b7d) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15IPWP-0000A2-00; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:55:25 -0600 Message-ID: <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:55:25 -0600 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > If WindRiver gets on the ball and keeps fulfilling CD orders, why then this > name might continue to be worth something. Otherwise, it will go away and > the FreeBSD CD distributions will simply take place through other > distributors. Or not, if every other distributor that actually cares to distribute FreeBSD has dried up and blown away because WRS has been handing out exclusive access to the "official" FreeBSD ISO images. > This in some ways is even more desirable because as long as > Walnut Creek was around, there was no demand for FreeBSD distributions at > places like Linux Central, thus those places didn't even carry it. You're assuming that not having Walnut Creek around is going to be good for Linux Central, or good for FreeBSD? I personally wouldn't give a bucket of warm spit for Linux Central's well being, but am quite worried about the well being of FreeBSD in the near future. > Is it _bad_ for a Linux CD distributor to be selling FreeBSD copies? > No, and it also gives the Project more advertising. But that's not what the situation is. Let's be truthful here, Ted, and ask "Is it _bad_ for WRS to award exclusive distribution contracts without the permission of the FreeBSD contributors? Is it bad for WRS to award these to a Linux site, leaving one or more very interested BSD distributors twisting in the wind? Is it _bad_ for WRS to simply flush the long-standing distribution arrangements without any fore- warning, leaving hundreds of people wondering where their orders are?" Yes, all of the above are bad, and they're a sign of an even worse problem. FreeBSD has done well for the past 8 years due in large part because it an energetic and persuasive "product manager" in the person of Jordan K. Hubbard pushing, cajoling, and badgering the CD-ROM product through the arduous steps of production. Those who think this process happens on auto-pilot are deluded; it has to be baby- stepped through every time. For very good reason, Jordan is no longer in a position to do this. We as the FreeBSD community need to decide what we're going to do about this, and we need to decide before another disastrous release cycle happens. WRS does not have any legal standing to create such a closed and exclusive distribution arrangement, FreeBSD is *our* product, not theirs. *WE* need to decide what *WE* want to do about this, and move along in an orderly fashion, or *WE* will lose the ability to do any- thing about it. Specifically, we need a Product Manager who can shepherd FreeBSD through the release process, and coordinate with CD-ROM distributor(s) who are interested in producing and selling CDs, DVDs, etc of the "official" FreeBSD distribution. I've directed replies to -hackers because this issue is of concern to the entire FreeBSD community. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 0: 0:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-93.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0159937B63C; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7525766C4D; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:00:43 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jkh@freeBSD.org, wes@FreeBSD.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010706000043.A47333@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 12:55:25AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 12:55:25AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > For very good reason, Jordan is no longer in a position to do this. We > as the FreeBSD community need to decide what we're going to do about > this, and we need to decide before another disastrous release cycle > happens. WRS does not have any legal standing to create such a closed > and exclusive distribution arrangement, FreeBSD is *our* product, not > theirs. *WE* need to decide what *WE* want to do about this, and move > along in an orderly fashion, or *WE* will lose the ability to do any- > thing about it. >=20 > Specifically, we need a Product Manager who can shepherd FreeBSD through > the release process, and coordinate with CD-ROM distributor(s) who are > interested in producing and selling CDs, DVDs, etc of the "official" > FreeBSD distribution. Something that wasn't clear to me from Jordan's message to -announce is whether he will continue to be the FreeBSD Release Engineer. If he is, then whatever Jordan churns out for 4.4 is the official product. If not, then the FreeBSD committers need to find a new release engineer to do that job, and WRS can package up those bits or make their own distribution as they see fit. There are still people like John Baldwin at WRS who have been learning the release engineering ropes over the past few releases, who could feasibly coordinate on that side. Concomitant to this is the need to transfer the FreeBSD trademark from WRS to the FreeBSD Foundation (which should be possible now that the latter actually has legal standing), which is apparently going to happen but something we need to make sure *does* happen in the next month or two. Kris --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7RWIaWry0BWjoQKURAj9lAJ92tbadpvBGMVQ9u+ZAHuQDT61hPwCgkVfN b9ZkwZh6p0DXkQn2e2H/rIo= =kfcC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --7AUc2qLy4jB3hD7Z-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 0:46:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from out5.mx.nwbl.wi.voyager.net (out5.mx.nwbl.wi.voyager.net [169.207.2.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 176CA37B408; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from pop4.nwbl.wi.voyager.net (pop4.nwbl.wi.voyager.net [169.207.2.83]) by out5.mx.nwbl.wi.voyager.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f667mkZ01904; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:48:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from john.execpc.com (d34.as14.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.134.34]) by pop4.nwbl.wi.voyager.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f667f1Y05319; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:41:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010706020157.026cea40@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: fpawlak/mail.execpc.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 02:47:21 -0500 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Ted Mittelstaedt , wes@softweyr.com From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:55 AM 7/6/2001 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > If WindRiver gets on the ball and keeps fulfilling CD orders, why then this > > name might continue to be worth something. Otherwise, it will go away and > > the FreeBSD CD distributions will simply take place through other > > distributors. > >Or not, if every other distributor that actually cares to distribute >FreeBSD has dried up and blown away because WRS has been handing out >exclusive access to the "official" FreeBSD ISO images. Very bad! Detrimental to the life of the project. > > This in some ways is even more desirable because as long as > > Walnut Creek was around, there was no demand for FreeBSD distributions at > > places like Linux Central, thus those places didn't even carry it. > >You're assuming that not having Walnut Creek around is going to be >good for Linux Central, or good for FreeBSD? I personally wouldn't >give a bucket of warm spit for Linux Central's well being, but am quite >worried about the well being of FreeBSD in the near future. I agree, the future of FreeBSD does look dim right now. It is being developed, but not promoted and distributed with any kind of profession consistency. And that is a crying shame. > > Is it _bad_ for a Linux CD distributor to be selling FreeBSD copies? > > No, and it also gives the Project more advertising. > >But that's not what the situation is. Let's be truthful here, Ted, >and ask "Is it _bad_ for WRS to award exclusive distribution contracts >without the permission of the FreeBSD contributors? Is it bad for WRS >to award these to a Linux site, leaving one or more very interested >BSD distributors twisting in the wind? Is it _bad_ for WRS to simply >flush the long-standing distribution arrangements without any fore- >warning, leaving hundreds of people wondering where their orders are?" That certainly will kill a bunch of interest in FreeBSD real quick. >Yes, all of the above are bad, and they're a sign of an even worse >problem. FreeBSD has done well for the past 8 years due in large part >because it an energetic and persuasive "product manager" in the person >of Jordan K. Hubbard pushing, cajoling, and badgering the CD-ROM >product through the arduous steps of production. Those who think >this process happens on auto-pilot are deluded; it has to be baby- >stepped through every time. He was a very unique member of the core team, and had a lot of salesman and public relations savvy. His departure leaves a gaping hole in the project as it now stands. However, it is my understanding that he was paid to do just those sort of things. It would appear that the work he did out side of release coordination would almost require a full time employee of the project. >For very good reason, Jordan is no longer in a position to do this. We >as the FreeBSD community need to decide what we're going to do about >this, and we need to decide before another disastrous release cycle >happens. WRS does not have any legal standing to create such a closed >and exclusive distribution arrangement, FreeBSD is *our* product, not >theirs. *WE* need to decide what *WE* want to do about this, and move >along in an orderly fashion, or *WE* will lose the ability to do any- >thing about it. Exactly. But will this require legal action action as in cease and desist? As far as I can surmise without a financial backer as was WC this is going to be very difficult. CD production and distribution costs money for a variety of reasons. Until that CD run is sold and out of inventory, it is a dead weight loss. Someone has to have a financial interest to provide the up-front money for manufacturing the CD's, promotion, and getting them into the proper distribution channels or we are facing a very steep if not impossible climb. Linux only caught fire after the various organizations began putting together distros with some consistency ala, Slackware which was generally a child of WC I believe. It was the profit motive that moved it forward. What part did any of this play in Jordan's decision to go to Apple? Was it that there was no day job at WRS? That is how I read his message of resignation. >Specifically, we need a Product Manager who can shepherd FreeBSD through >the release process, and coordinate with CD-ROM distributor(s) who are >interested in producing and selling CDs, DVDs, etc of the "official" >FreeBSD distribution. And that will be difficult to find without some outside financial support for that person. They will need a lot of freedom to travel to show the flag at shows, make speeches to various critical groups, all of the things that Jordan could do while at WC. How many of us can actually get away from our day jobs on a consistent basis to do those necessary things? I am not trying to spread gloom and doom here, but to look at the perceived reality of how things used to be. Frank >I've directed replies to -hackers because this issue is of concern to >the entire FreeBSD community. > >-- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > >Wes >Peters Softweyr LLC >wes@softweyr.com >http://softweyr.com/ > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 1:29:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81F237B401; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:29:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f668PfG53418; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:25:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:25:41 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010706092541.C23117@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1SQmhf2mF2YjsYvc" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 12:55:25AM -0600 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --1SQmhf2mF2YjsYvc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 12:55:25AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > If WindRiver gets on the ball and keeps fulfilling CD orders, why then = this > > name might continue to be worth something. Otherwise, it will go away = and > > the FreeBSD CD distributions will simply take place through other > > distributors.=20 >=20 > Or not, if every other distributor that actually cares to distribute=20 > FreeBSD has dried up and blown away because WRS has been handing out=20 > exclusive access to the "official" FreeBSD ISO images. This came up in discussions at Usenix between myself and several members of -core. I agree that the project needs a clearer distinction between releases made "by the project", and releases made by commercial third parties, such as Wind River, or the DVDs put out by FreeBSD Services Ltd (or the various distributions put together by other European and Japanese companies). I think that the conclusion is that "the project" should be putting out five ISOs and making them freely available. Four of them would correspond with the four discs that have traditionally made up the commercial CD sets. The fifth one would be a mini-ISO that contains everything needed to do a complete install, but now ports or packages (basically, the existing disc 1 with no third party apps, except, possibly, XFree86). This ISO would only be about 200-250MB in size, and is more useful to the people who only download the ISO to do an install, and use the net for packages/ports. Third parties can then base their commercial distributions around these ISOs. They might simply repackage them (on CD, or DVD). Or they might provide value-add services, such as additional documentation, more packages and so on. The thorny question of "What do they have to include and still call it FreeBSD?" is resolved by saying that any FreeBSD distribution must include, as a minimum, the contents of the "mini" ISO (including sysinstall). Anyone that wants to include an alternative installation routine (open or closed source) can do, as long as sysinstall is still there. Then the FreeBSD docs can continue to refer to sysinstall, and the project doesn't get flack if someone puts together a distribution with a crap installer, because sysinstall will always be there as a fallback. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --1SQmhf2mF2YjsYvc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjtFdgQACgkQk6gHZCw343X7LgCeNHDC8Mq/dNDZGX+8o3ziUe5n f0gAn2efCSzoSUVJ7xQ5CAGRTGFh2yqS =HrFc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1SQmhf2mF2YjsYvc-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 1:35: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-93.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10A1C37B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:34:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 77E8966C4D; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:34:50 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Frank Pawlak Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Ted Mittelstaedt , wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010706013450.A48685@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010706020157.026cea40@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010706020157.026cea40@127.0.0.1>; from fpawlak@execpc.com on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:47:21AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:47:21AM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > >You're assuming that not having Walnut Creek around is going to be > >good for Linux Central, or good for FreeBSD? I personally wouldn't > >give a bucket of warm spit for Linux Central's well being, but am quite > >worried about the well being of FreeBSD in the near future. >=20 > I agree, the future of FreeBSD does look dim right now. It is being=20 > developed, but not promoted and distributed with any kind of profession= =20 > consistency. And that is a crying shame. Let's not go overboard here. Things can surely be improved, but I wouldn't go so far as to call the future of FreeBSD "dim". > >Yes, all of the above are bad, and they're a sign of an even worse > >problem. FreeBSD has done well for the past 8 years due in large part > >because it an energetic and persuasive "product manager" in the person > >of Jordan K. Hubbard pushing, cajoling, and badgering the CD-ROM > >product through the arduous steps of production. Those who think > >this process happens on auto-pilot are deluded; it has to be baby- > >stepped through every time. >=20 > He was a very unique member of the core team, and had a lot of salesman a= nd=20 > public relations savvy. His departure leaves a gaping hole in the projec= t=20 > as it now stands. However, it is my understanding that he was paid to do= =20 > just those sort of things. It would appear that the work he did out side= =20 > of release coordination would almost require a full time employee of the= =20 > project. And just to be clear, Jordan hasn't left FreeBSD, just changed employers. > What part did any of this play in Jordan's decision to go to Apple? Was = it=20 > that there was no day job at WRS? That is how I read his message of=20 > resignation. WRS still employs a number of FreeBSD developers to work full time on FreeBSD; things aren't as bad as you seem to think, they're just more uncertain right now than some of us would like. Kris --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7RXgqWry0BWjoQKURAsQ/AJ9csiAfglE4g7g4CYsF96xWA9cK3ACgjDis sojka14/sqbunjBTWOAXu5U= =aiWr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Qxx1br4bt0+wmkIi-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 1:37: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-93.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8889137B403 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:36:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6EFD066C4D; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:36:57 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Don Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! Message-ID: <20010706013656.B48685@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GRPZ8SYKNexpdSJ7" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:03:24PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --GRPZ8SYKNexpdSJ7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:03:24PM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > Looks like Eric Wayte was right in his premonition about Wind River > screwing us over. Their freebsdmall website is now a link to something > called BSD Central, and their phone box says 'Welcome to Linux > Central'.... and of course nobody's in in Customer Service. >=20 > I ordered a BSD Desktop direct from freebsdmall.com -- at full list -- > because their (old) site claimed it would come with 4.3 CDs. Guess who's > got another obsolete set of 4.1 CDs sitting on his hands? :-(=20 I think people need to think twice before condemning WRS as Satan's newest earth-bound franchisee; they've just bought a whole bunch of assets and are no doubt still trying to figure out just what to do with them. Polite feedback to the relevant people about what they could do better may well work wonders :-) Kris --GRPZ8SYKNexpdSJ7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7RXioWry0BWjoQKURAiqsAKDBCzNRD56BcY4jtDcmQram6EHrlACeJKQp d2gs6BaSwfxJ9yEHXsk8n3Y= =7Cf5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GRPZ8SYKNexpdSJ7-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 1:42:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pcwin002.win.tue.nl (pcwin002.win.tue.nl [131.155.71.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC8537B403; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:42:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stijn@pcwin002.win.tue.nl) Received: (from stijn@localhost) by pcwin002.win.tue.nl (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f668fqX96902; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:41:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from stijn) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:41:52 +0200 From: Stijn Hoop To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD ISOs & redistribution [was Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral] Message-ID: <20010706104152.C96591@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706092541.C23117@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010706092541.C23117@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@freebsd.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:25:41AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FWIW, On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:25:41AM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > I think that the conclusion is that "the project" should be putting out > five ISOs and making them freely available. Four of them would > correspond with the four discs that have traditionally made up the > commercial CD sets. The fifth one would be a mini-ISO that contains > everything needed to do a complete install, but now ports or packages > (basically, the existing disc 1 with no third party apps, except, > possibly, XFree86). This ISO would only be about 200-250MB in size, and > is more useful to the people who only download the ISO to do an install, > and use the net for packages/ports. I *really* like the idea of this small ISO. I don't know if those four ISOs should all be available, but that fifth one is a great idea. I always use the net for installing ports etc., but I like to keep a copy of a -RELEASE disc for reinstalls around. Right now I always download ~400mb too much :( > Third parties can then base their commercial distributions around these > ISOs. They might simply repackage them (on CD, or DVD). Or they might > provide value-add services, such as additional documentation, more packages > and so on. Maybe the infrastructure that's required to make the 4CD set should go into the repo, but not the ISO's themselves? (and yes, I know this is hard, and it's been argued before, re: what if Jordan gets hit by a bus...) If five ISO images are available, people *will* get confused about what is the right one to install FreeBSD, not to mention that people will (try to) download all four discs when they only need one (talk about waste of bandwidth). If the infrastructure is something like 'make release' then interested third parties can easily produce those four discs themselves. The hard part is getting the release process to that point. Or am I mistaking and is this already included? > The thorny question of "What do they have to include and still call it > FreeBSD?" is resolved by saying that any FreeBSD distribution must > include, as a minimum, the contents of the "mini" ISO (including > sysinstall). Anyone that wants to include an alternative installation > routine (open or closed source) can do, as long as sysinstall is still > there. Then the FreeBSD docs can continue to refer to sysinstall, and > the project doesn't get flack if someone puts together a distribution > with a crap installer, because sysinstall will always be there as a > fallback. Like I already stated above, this is a really good idea IMHO. --Stijn -- "I'm not under the alkafluence of inkahol that some thinkle peep I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 2: 4:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424B337B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f6693ft76751; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com Cc: tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 02:03:41 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 104 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Wes Peters Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:55:25 -0600 > Or not, if every other distributor that actually cares to distribute > FreeBSD has dried up and blown away because WRS has been handing out > exclusive access to the "official" FreeBSD ISO images. We already discussed this during the FreeBSD developer's summit at USENIX - I don't think things are as dire as that, nor is "exclusive access" even in the cards for anyone at this point. I'll explain. I've wanted since almost the very beginning to release all the ISO bits since the work which went into creating them often came significantly from the FreeBSD.org community (people like Steve Price and the ports team, thanks guys!) and it's only natural that I'd want all of that to go back. Unfortunately, I was also beholden to folks like Walnut Creek CDROM and BSDi since they were also paying my salary and that of several other FreeBSD folks who were doing much of the other work involved with publishing CDs. They could lay fair claim to at least some of the release engineering work I and others there did, though on the plus side there was also a pretty good relationship between Walnut Creek CDROM and the FreeBSD Project which was clearly of mutual benefit in many ways. Walnut Creek CDROM took FreeBSD to trade shows, paid for various types of contract work to improve things, ran the ftp.freebsd.org FTP site, etc. etc. They were also a small outfit that was approachable and easy to deal with and the sole owner, Bob Bruce, clearly understood the open source community and was a definite fan who "got it" when it came to dealing with folks like us. To give him his just due, he was just as much a pioneer in the open source "industry" as we were and thus a rather long-running partnership was able to grow out of our many mutual interests. Times have clearly changed, however, and Walnut Creek CDROM is long and sadly gone. Whether what's taken its place turns out to be a good match for the FreeBSD project or not still remains very much to be seen, but perhaps that's simply a clear indication that now's as good a time as any to re-evaluate the way we deal with external relationships like this and not simply take continuity for granted. We, for example, need to ask ourselves if there even should be an "official" CD distribution of FreeBSD and, if so, what the selection criteria for such officiality should be. FreeBSD has always been a meritocracy and I see no reason why CDROM vendors should not be selected the same way - put the bits up for grabs and may the vendor with the best customer service and charming bedside manner win. That's assuming, of course, that the changing internet economy and proliferation of high speed access leaves room for anyone to make a business out of selling "straight media" without any significant value-add. All the more reason to take a wait-and-see attitude and simply not endorse any distribution until the sands stop shifting around and we see who's left standing and in what condition. Now that I'm also back to doing release engineering purely on my own time (not that Apple would have any publishing interest in the resulting product in any case), I'm free of any conflict-of-interest constraints and can simply make the whole ball of wax available for FTP. Why would anyone want a ball of wax? I have no idea. It's a figure of speach. Anyway, the following is what we initially came up with at USENIX for FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE. Nothing is frozen in stone here and it's all subject to user feedback, so let me know what you guys think of this: o FTP release, as usual o 1 "Mini ISO" containing just the ftp release bits and XFree86. Intended audience is just those folks who want a [relatively] small and convenient boot image without any packages or "extras" other than X. o 4 "release ISOs" containing the usual base bits + packages. No Walnut Creek CDROM copyrighted material will be used, of course, though I've been gradually pruning that off over the last few releases anyway since it was largely all old and outdated DOS helper cruft (like view.exe) and I rather doubt that anyone has even noticed its absence. o A full collection of packages and distfiles, not broken up in any way but at least syncronized with the release bits (again, pretty much what we already do today). This is intended for DVD media folks like FreeBSD Services Ltd to come and package up in their own way given the rather different constraints they have on media sizing. Also, when Wes said the following: > Specifically, we need a Product Manager who can shepherd FreeBSD through > the release process, and coordinate with CD-ROM distributor(s) who are I think he perhaps wasn't clear on the fact that I'll still be "shepherding FreeBSD through the release process" and working with many of the very same FreeBSD volunteers to organize the bits, there just won't be any "official tie" to any one distributor. Given WindRiver's recent redirection of orders to BSD Central which started all this fuss, it's not even clear to us that they want to stay in the CDROM business anyway, but if they or anyone else (like the DVD folks) want to "coordinate" with us then they can do so simply by sending us, the volunteer release engineering and QA team, email with their requirements. We'll do as much to oblige them as the project has always done for any FreeBSD customer who's approached it with a reasonable request for increasing FreeBSD's mindshare or ease of use. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 2: 9:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369F637B406; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f66992t76811; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:09:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: kris@obsecurity.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@FreeBSD.ORG, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <20010706000043.A47333@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706000043.A47333@xor.obsecurity.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010706020902V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 02:09:02 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 28 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 00:00:43 -0700 > Something that wasn't clear to me from Jordan's message to -announce > is whether he will continue to be the FreeBSD Release Engineer. Yeesh, you'd think I'd announced my funeral by how some people have taken this whole Apple thing. :-) I'm perfectly happy to keep doing the RE thing and so is Apple, so no worries there. I used to do them between the hours of midnight and 4am, back when I worked full-time for Lotus, but thankfully the process is rather more automated now and I can get to bed by 2am or so. Speaking of which... :-) > Concomitant to this is the need to transfer the FreeBSD trademark from > WRS to the FreeBSD Foundation (which should be possible now that the > latter actually has legal standing), which is apparently going to > happen but something we need to make sure *does* happen in the next > month or two. That's actually something the foundation needs to pursue since only its officers have the ability to make the transfer happen. I sincerely hope they do, though I obviously can't do much from the WRS side of things now (not that I necessarily could before either). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 2:50:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sneakerz.org (sneakerz.org [216.33.66.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE77A37B406; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@sneakerz.org) Received: by sneakerz.org (Postfix, from userid 1092) id 3E1975D010; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:50:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:50:02 -0500 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Frank Pawlak , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Ted Mittelstaedt , wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010706045002.B81751@sneakerz.org> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010706020157.026cea40@127.0.0.1> <20010706013450.A48685@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010706013450.A48685@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:34:50AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Kris Kennaway [010706 03:35] wrote: > On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:47:21AM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > >You're assuming that not having Walnut Creek around is going to be > > >good for Linux Central, or good for FreeBSD? I personally wouldn't > > >give a bucket of warm spit for Linux Central's well being, but am quite > > >worried about the well being of FreeBSD in the near future. > > > > I agree, the future of FreeBSD does look dim right now. It is being > > developed, but not promoted and distributed with any kind of profession > > consistency. And that is a crying shame. > > Let's not go overboard here. Things can surely be improved, but I > wouldn't go so far as to call the future of FreeBSD "dim". You're missing the slashdot troll agenda, if anything these people live to call BSD's future "dim", in fact if Frank hadn't been so late to subscribe, I'm sure his first post would have been labeled as the same. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] Ok, who wrote this damn function called '??'? And why do my programs keep crashing in it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 4:42:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722DA37B412; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f66Bfol41399; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:41:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Jordan Hubbard" , , Cc: , Subject: RE: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:41:47 -0700 Message-ID: <004901c10610$a37ff540$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jordan Hubbard > >Times have clearly changed, however, and Walnut Creek CDROM is long >and sadly gone. Jordan, I agree with most of what you say except for this. Fortunately as I don't work for WC, BSDi, Apple, Microsoft or any of the BSD crew I can throw some needed stones here. Since the core team seems to not know what to do with me, throwing the stones at them isn't going to make much difference now, and I'm used to getting in trouble anyway. I can't sit back anymore and stand to see this gobbledygook thrown around and see the FreeBSD movement harmed by it. Understand I appreciate everything you guys do (and the book plug at USENIX didn't go unnoticed either) but this is very, very, very wrong. I have always disliked senseless destruction - and now in hindsight it appears that the destruction of WC due to this BSD merger mania is both senseles and inadvertant. No matter how much you sugarcoat it - BSDi screwed over FreeBSD by acquiring Walnut Creek. You all have to face that even though you may have all worked for them and been the ones to make the mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and we can all forgive for them - but it's unforgivable to have the culprits continue to pretend that no mistakes were made. I've yet to read of a single apology from the folks that started all this - all I've seen are apologies from WindRiver who had nothing to do with it. I SEE NOTHING to prove that the conditions that created WC's involvement don't exist for another CDROM vendor to take it's place. Are you saying that in hindsight the symbiosis beween WC and The FreeBSD Project was bad? And that we are better off now? With what?!?! So far all I hear is a bunch of unsatisfied CDROM customers justly complaining, a financial pipeline to the Project collapsing, in short a mismanagement of the entire FreeBSD CD distribution that is unreal. Nobody from BSDi has EVER given any business justification for the BSDi acquisition of Walnut Creek. If you look past all the "we are going out to do great things in the future" press release crap - there's nothing. Nothing financially justifying that is. Was WC financially failing? If so why would BSDi take on more debt, that is completely stupid. Plenty of other CD distributors WERN'T failing and the CD distribution model is going great guns today. If WC started failing due to mismanagement - then let them die. Another vendor would take over quick enough. It seems to me that far from failing, WC was the one making the money and for some hidden political machinations that nobody in the know has revealed that WC agreed to allow itself to be raped in order to prop up BSDi. Either that or it was the old bugaboo of BSDi seeing it's market being eroded by FreeBSD and so tried playing the old "Buy the competitor then kill their product distribution channel" game. Then, the combined company fell on it's face and WindRiver came in and picked up the pieces at a firesale and is dumping the bits they don't want - and what's left over of WC and it's ordering process is a bit that they don't want. Same old story of software acquisitions I've seen it plenty of times before in commercial software and now it's happening to us - or rather our CD distributor that was paying our way and the way of our servers. I read once that the main FreeBSD distribution server was on 3 DS3's - well that kind of bandwidth requires about $20,000 a month in my world - and is WindRiver going to support that expense when the CD distribution business has been ruined? Yeah right - tell me another story. Are you going to say that you would really think it better if the main FreeBSD server was throttled down to a T1 access and to get the ISO image that all users are going to have to screw with all of the different mirrors - and this at the same time that the CDROM business is in the toilet so that the only way to GET the new release in a timely manner is by FTP? Sounds great in the ivory tower - but explain this again to the admin that's frantically trying to get access to a mirror server at 10:00pm at night to get a file so he can bring back up his FreeBSD server that must be back in production tomorrow. Do you really think that people would prefer to FTP the distribution when they can pick up the phone, make an 800 call and have it next-day shipped to them? And 3/4 of the time they just expense it to their company so they pay nothing anyway? Now your talking about FIVE ISO's, think of all the users that have problems getting even ONE down. Not everyone out here has fast DSL and Cable - in fact the majority don't. I find it asinine that WindRiver is condemming the so-called messed up WC ordering mechanism - this is a mechanism that shipped a lot more product than they are doing now, in it's heyday. If that business was as screwed up as WindRiver is making it out to be then BSDi was run by morons when they bought WC and we know that's not true. Somebody is lying here and it seems obvious that the current owners who have seemed to make it clear they don't want the CD pressing business are more likely to be the liars than the BSDI people that said WC was such a good acquisition last year. > >FreeBSD has always been a meritocracy and I see no reason why CDROM >vendors should not be selected the same way - put the bits up for >grabs and may the vendor with the best customer service and charming >bedside manner win. Respectfully - this is rubbish. FreeBSD simply does not currently have the shipping volume for _many_ CD distributors to all come in and grab pieces of the pie and make any money doing so. After the 4.3 cd distribution fiasco it will have even less. WE ARE NOT LINUX!!!! When WC was active there was the "snob" distribution - WC's - and the "bottom feeders" distribution - CheapBytes. Both were symbiotic and in my opinion completely filled the market. More importantly, both obviously made money. Now we have a setup where the snob distributor has been destroyed and who knows what is happening over at CheapBytes - but I fervently hope that they go full blast into production and suck up all the customers that are now out there swinging in the wind. And if CheapBytes doesen't do it then by God let Linux Central do it - I could care less if they answer the phone "Linux Elvira Mistress Of The Night - May I Take Your Linux Order" as long as the FreeBSD distribution makes them money. Then maybe in a few years and after a few more distributions we will get back to the format of a "snob" distributor and a "bottom feeder" distributor - a model that worked very well until BSDi came in and busted everything up. >That's assuming, of course, that the changing >internet economy and proliferation of high speed access leaves room >for anyone to make a business out of selling "straight media" without >any significant value-add. The only change I've seen in the Internet economy is people quitting funding speculative projects and concentrating on profit making - which is what they should have been doing all along. Our previous distribution mechanism of WC met the profit making criteria and it's rediculous to want to move it now into the speculative projects model. I do agree with you on one thing though - if we do end up with a model of: "CDROM vendors should be selected the same way - put the bits up for grabs and may the vendor with the best customer service and charming bedside manner win." and this creates a plethora of different CD vendors all hawking FreeBSD distributions, that it will be very questionable that: "anyone can make a business out of selling "straight media" without any significant value-add." So, are you ready for $100-per-box FreeBSD distros? Do you think the FreeBSD userbase is? Boy, now THAT's sure an advance for the customer! >All the more reason to take a wait-and-see >attitude and simply not endorse any distribution until the sands stop >shifting around and we see who's left standing and in what condition. > In which case I can tell you what is going to happen - a bunch of CD vendors are going to climb in and start selling FreeBSD CD's, each hoping to eventually be "blessed" by the core team - that won't happen because you all will be taking a wait and see attitude - and then none of the vendors are going to make any money and they are all going to go away completely disgusted and then we won't have ANY FreeBSD cdrom vendors. Don't you see that your about ready to pull the trigger on a shotgun pointing at the goose laying the golden eggs? > >Anyway, the following is what we initially came up with at USENIX for >FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE. Nothing is frozen in stone here and it's all >subject to user feedback, so let me know what you guys think of this: > >many of the very same FreeBSD volunteers to organize the bits, there >just won't be any "official tie" to any one distributor. Given BOOM - there went the shotgun - you just told all CD vendors to Fuck Off and Die And Never Come Back. The goose is dead. Quit farting around - why are you tiptoeing around WindRiver? They are yelling from the mountaintops "WE DON'T WANT THE CD DISTRIBUTION BUSINESS FOR FREEBSD TAKE IT AWAY PLEASE NOW!!!" They won't be insulted if you tell them they aren't the Official CDROM Pressors For FreeBSD anymore - they will jump for joy! >WindRiver's recent redirection of orders to BSD Central which started >all this fuss, No - BSDi's acquisition of WC that started all this fuss. WindRiver's doings is just the end of a game that was started by BSDi. >it's not even clear to us that they want to stay in the >CDROM business anyway, Trust me THEY DON'T!!! If they did they would have moved heaven and earth to service all their customers and fulfilled orders instead of this schlocky excuse even if it took the President of WindRiver himself driving to the homes of the CD customers to hand-deliver the CD's. As it is the WindRiver president didn't even _sign_ the apology for not shipping the CD's! WindRiver wants to go out there and take the proprietary BSD code and make a shitpile of money in the embedded systems market. Fine, Great, More Power Too Them. I'm damn happy about it. I don't expect them to keep the CD distribution business going if they don't want it. LET THEM GO! But The FreeBSD Project is sticking it's head where the sun don't shine to even hint that WindRiver wants the distribution business. What's incumbent on the Project now is to make some hard choices and select 2 or at most 3 CDROM vendors who clearly DON'T step on each other's markets, and who clearly want to have the business, and designate them "Blessed" and let the CD distributors alone to repair all the damage done by this last fiasco. Then in a year or so when the users trust has been regained and the CD and toys shipping volumes are back to normal, why then if other CD vendors want in on the pie then the core can bless them too. If you try to do it your way your going to end up pissing off ALL the CD vendors and then we are going to be really, totally fucked. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 6:22:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624A137B403; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 06:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f66DMUK74257; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:22:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B45BB7C.A50497E6@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 07:22:04 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! References: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010706013656.B48685@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:03:24PM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > > Looks like Eric Wayte was right in his premonition about Wind River > > screwing us over. Their freebsdmall website is now a link to something > > called BSD Central, and their phone box says 'Welcome to Linux > > Central'.... and of course nobody's in in Customer Service. > > > > I ordered a BSD Desktop direct from freebsdmall.com -- at full list -- > > because their (old) site claimed it would come with 4.3 CDs. Guess who's > > got another obsolete set of 4.1 CDs sitting on his hands? :-( > > I think people need to think twice before condemning WRS as Satan's > newest earth-bound franchisee; they've just bought a whole bunch of > assets and are no doubt still trying to figure out just what to do > with them. Polite feedback to the relevant people about what they > could do better may well work wonders :-) > Hi, Kris - Somebody else's comment relating WR to M$ is not totally off base. They've made their money sucking up our tax dollars through the military budget. I did send them a polite(r) message when I finally got to a WRS e-mail. They took over in April, and it's now July. Given that things used to work, I have little patience with people who can't _keep_ basic things working. They sure got their logos up on the site in a hurry! As for the future being dim, I agree with you. Not a chance! This is exactly the kind of situation FBSD needs to wean itself finally from dependence on any one company, as the response to Wes Peters' thread is showing. As for Jordan's departure to Apple, I think people need to remember that _he_ was the one who announce@'d the Release Schedule. Even if he isn't "it" any more, it doesn't sound like he will be out of the picture. I think it is very important that the Coordinator NOT be a Wind River employee, as tempting as that may be for short-term stability. The new Foundation sounds like the right mechanism at just the right nick of time. It is just as important to make sure that WR doesn't get the baby by fiat as it is that we don't let it go down the drain. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 7:26:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467AD37B403 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from acc@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.15.37] (helo=anthony.dsl.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 15IWZ4-0000Pz-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 08:26:38 -0600 Received: (from acc@localhost) by anthony.dsl.xmission.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f66ESU785403 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:28:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anthony@xmission.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:28:30 -0600 From: "Anthony C. Chavez" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another article mentioning FreeBSD and Microsoft Message-ID: <20010706082829.A85348@xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B454FB9.D2B9166E@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:42:17AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:42:17AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > That's what daily.daemonnews.org is for. Is ~that~ what it's for? ;-) Seriously, I don't know how that happened but that completely slipped my mind. I'm so ashamed. Can any of you ever forgive me? -- anthony@xmission.com http://anthonychavez.cjb.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ``The only sin is ignorance.'' -- Nicolo Machiavelli To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 8:34:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB1037B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 7012515; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660EE49A15; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:34:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Or not, if every other distributor that actually cares to distribute > > FreeBSD has dried up and blown away because WRS has been handing out > > exclusive access to the "official" FreeBSD ISO images. Daemon News is still very interested in becoming the official FreeBSD CD vendor. I think a qualification of being an official vendor is donating a portion back to the project. The FreeBSD foundation needs to be funded. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 9:56:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE72337B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:56:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f66GtCt78659; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:55:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: chrisc@vmunix.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: References: <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010706095512T.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 09:55:12 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 15 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Chris Coleman Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:34:08 -0400 (EDT) > Daemon News is still very interested in becoming the official FreeBSD CD > vendor. I think a qualification of being an official vendor is donating a > portion back to the project. The FreeBSD foundation needs to be funded. I think that's perhaps _a_ qualification, but from the end-user perspective (and that's really what this thread is essentially about) I think good customer service will count for a lot more. :) Only time will tell about that, so I guess the question is whether or not Daemon News wants to start replicating its own CDs come 4.4? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 10:29: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A9837B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:29:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f66HTNK10155; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 11:29:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B45F559.71DE08E8@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 11:28:57 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: chrisc@vmunix.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010706095512T.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > From: Chris Coleman > > > Daemon News is still very interested in becoming the official FreeBSD CD > > vendor. I think a qualification of being an official vendor is donating a > > portion back to the project. The FreeBSD foundation needs to be funded. > > I think that's perhaps _a_ qualification, but from the end-user > perspective (and that's really what this thread is essentially about) > I think good customer service will count for a lot more. :) Only time > will tell about that, so I guess the question is whether or not Daemon > News wants to start replicating its own CDs come 4.4? > Given the lack of response from either WR or BSDCentral to my complaint about the FreeBSD Desktop I just received, I think it is critical that we establish an independent CD channel outside of WR's control. I have always had great service when I (and people I have recommended it to) have bought from DNMall. Bluntly, much better service than WC, even before all these mergers/buyouts. My subscriptions were trashed several times and it was always my fault even when it wasn't. I don't think we should ever have "the" official FreeBSD CD vendor, but I support Chris as someone separate from WR. Of course, now that O'Reilly's touting him as their 'open source editor', I worry about the little penguin beak his nose is turning into.... ;-) -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 10:30:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A8D37B401; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA3C78; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 10:37:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3B45F5C2.1D2F12CA@acuson.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 10:30:42 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard wrote: > o 4 "release ISOs" containing the usual base bits + packages. No > Walnut Creek CDROM copyrighted material will be used, of course, > though I've been gradually pruning that off over the last few > releases anyway since it was largely all old and outdated DOS helper > cruft (like view.exe) and I rather doubt that anyone has even > noticed its absence. Some people at least will notice. From a post by S. Lafredo to -questions a mere one week ago... "In handbook section 2.2.1.2 Before Installing from CDROM, there is a reference to a install.bat and view.exe. I cannot find either of these on the CD or the internet? Where do I obtain the install.bat and view.exe file, so that I can put them on my MS-DOS boot floppy and continue the installation?" David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 12:11:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E60937B409; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:11:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 90A8315; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A9B49A15; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:11:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Don Wilde Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <3B45F559.71DE08E8@Silver-Lynx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Given the lack of response from either WR or BSDCentral to my complaint > about the FreeBSD Desktop I just received, I think it is critical that > we establish an independent CD channel outside of WR's control. I have > always had great service when I (and people I have recommended it to) > have bought from DNMall. Bluntly, much better service than WC, even > before all these mergers/buyouts. My subscriptions were trashed several > times and it was always my fault even when it wasn't. > > I don't think we should ever have "the" official FreeBSD CD vendor, but > I support Chris as someone separate from WR. Of course, now that > O'Reilly's touting him as their 'open source editor', I worry about the > little penguin beak his nose is turning into.... ;-) Penguin beak? And I keep taking flack for pushing BSD in the Linux arena. :-) I have to finalize some arrangements, but we definately want to produce FreeBSD CDs starting with 4.4 We already offer subscription pricing, so we just need everyone to move their subscriptions over... I'll be making an official announcement soon. -Chris > -- > Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com > Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects > 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 > 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 12:18: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB57437B406; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:17:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f66JHWt79190; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: djohnson@acuson.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <3B45F5C2.1D2F12CA@acuson.com> References: <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <3B45F5C2.1D2F12CA@acuson.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010706121732A.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 12:17:32 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 28 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, those utilities are gone so we probably need to simply update the documentation and move on. :) - jordan From: David Johnson Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 10:30:42 -0700 > Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > o 4 "release ISOs" containing the usual base bits + packages. No > > Walnut Creek CDROM copyrighted material will be used, of course, > > though I've been gradually pruning that off over the last few > > releases anyway since it was largely all old and outdated DOS helper > > cruft (like view.exe) and I rather doubt that anyone has even > > noticed its absence. > > Some people at least will notice. From a post by S. Lafredo to > -questions a mere one week ago... > > "In handbook section 2.2.1.2 Before Installing from CDROM, there is a > reference to a install.bat and view.exe. I cannot find either of these > on the CD or the internet? Where do I obtain the install.bat and > view.exe file, so that I can put them on my MS-DOS boot floppy and > continue the installation?" > > David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 12:20: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC45137B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f66JGlt79184; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:16:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: Don@Silver-Lynx.com Cc: chrisc@vmunix.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <3B45F559.71DE08E8@Silver-Lynx.com> References: <20010706095512T.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <3B45F559.71DE08E8@Silver-Lynx.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010706121647H.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 12:16:47 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 21 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Don Wilde Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 11:28:57 -0600 > Given the lack of response from either WR or BSDCentral to my complaint > about the FreeBSD Desktop I just received, I think it is critical that > we establish an independent CD channel outside of WR's control. I have I don't think that anyone's debating that point at all. I would like to have _multiple_ channels of CDROM distribution, however, including companies in different countries and perhaps with different types of media (like DVD) or product objectives, like a desktop or server edition. As we learned with ftp.freesoftware.com, having a single point of failure leaves you swinging in the wind when unforseen circumstances pop up and just as we reacted to the FTP server going down by going to a multi-tiered, more fault tolerant model, so should we encourage multiple vendors. The days of giving people preferential treatment probably ended with Walnut Creek CDROM, we just hadn't really faced the fact until this happened. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 12:43:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AD037B406 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:43:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EAC34A9; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:43:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: , Chris Coleman Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How about something special for the 4.4 release? Something to commemerate the 4.4BSD release... Seven years without a lawsuit Eric Wayte University DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Chris Coleman wrote: > > I have to finalize some arrangements, but we definately want to produce > FreeBSD CDs starting with 4.4 We already offer subscription pricing, so > we just need everyone to move their subscriptions over... > > I'll be making an official announcement soon. > > -Chris > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 13: 2:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A990937B407 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:02:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f66K2WK32342; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:02:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B46193E.C2CEAA42@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 14:02:06 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman wrote: > > > Given the lack of response from either WR or BSDCentral to my complaint > > about the FreeBSD Desktop I just received, I think it is critical that > > we establish an independent CD channel outside of WR's control. I have > > always had great service when I (and people I have recommended it to) > > have bought from DNMall. Bluntly, much better service than WC, even > > before all these mergers/buyouts. My subscriptions were trashed several > > times and it was always my fault even when it wasn't. > > > > I don't think we should ever have "the" official FreeBSD CD vendor, but > > I support Chris as someone separate from WR. Of course, now that > > O'Reilly's touting him as their 'open source editor', I worry about the > > little penguin beak his nose is turning into.... ;-) > > Penguin beak? And I keep taking flack for pushing BSD in the Linux > arena. :-) > It's called a "hard time", CHris... :-) > I have to finalize some arrangements, but we definately want to produce > FreeBSD CDs starting with 4.4 We already offer subscription pricing, so > we just need everyone to move their subscriptions over... > I'll even accept getting a double-ship for a while as an acceptable price to be paid. > I'll be making an official announcement soon. Congrats on another stage of growth, Chris. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 13: 3:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7710637B403 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:03:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f66K3tK32356; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:03:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B461990.9359819E@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 14:03:28 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Wayte Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, Chris Coleman Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Eric Wayte wrote: > > How about something special for the 4.4 release? Something to commemerate > the 4.4BSD release... Seven years without a lawsuit > > > Now, THAT's a GREAT idea, Eric!!! > University DBA > Univ. of Central Florida > ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Chris Coleman wrote: > > > > > I have to finalize some arrangements, but we definately want to produce > > FreeBSD CDs starting with 4.4 We already offer subscription pricing, so > > we just need everyone to move their subscriptions over... > > > > I'll be making an official announcement soon. > > > > -Chris > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 13: 7: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260DA37B401; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f66K6Tt79365; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: tedm@toybox.placo.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <004901c10610$a37ff540$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <004901c10610$a37ff540$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010706130629R.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 13:06:29 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 110 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Subject: RE: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:41:47 -0700 > >Times have clearly changed, however, and Walnut Creek CDROM is long > >and sadly gone. > > Jordan, I agree with most of what you say except for this. You disagree with me that Walnut Creek CDROM is gone? How odd. Well, if you'd like to confirm this with Bob Bruce, be my guest! It's finished, toast, pushing up daisies, gone to its reward, shuffled off it mortal coil, met its maker. This is an ex-CDROM company! > Since the core team seems to not know what to do with me, throwing > the stones at them isn't going to make much difference now, and I'm > used to getting in trouble anyway. Erm, why would you throw stones at the core team over this in any case? You think they had anything to do with it? Ted... I can only suggest that you increase the medication - this is a seriously pointless rant you're engaging in here and I honestly don't see the aim of it. > I have always disliked senseless destruction - and now in hindsight it > appears that the destruction of WC due to this BSD merger mania is > both senseles and inadvertant. No matter how much you sugarcoat it - > BSDi screwed over FreeBSD by acquiring Walnut Creek. You all have to face > that even though you may have all worked for them and been the ones to > make the mistake. I think you're suffering from a serious lack of knowledge at what went on behind the scenes, to say nothing of business in general, if you somehow think that everybody went into the merger with the aim of killing off Walnut Creek CDROM. WC was already in the process of slow collapse when the merger took place because whether you're willing to admit it to yourself or not, THE CDROM PUBLISHING BUSINESS SUCKS. Take a look at the number of CDROM vendors in the market place 2 years ago and compare it to the number you see today. Go to CompUSA or Fry's and check out how many Linux distributions you even see on the shelves now. We could all see the writing on the wall even then, and it was for the best of reasons that we decided to combine what were at the time the two most visible "BSD vendors" in an effort to stop competing with one another and try to formulate some sort of hybrid strategy that would let both companies survive by getting into areas like services and custom engineering as well as publishing. Did we succeed? No, obviously not. Did a lot of people suffer a lot more than you or FreeBSD did in the process? Absolutely yes. We put a lot of work into trying to make it fly and when it hit the ground, it was a great disappointment to many people. There are no "culprits" here, at least not on the Walnut Creek CDROM side, just some folks trying to make the best of a bad situation. If you want to blame BSDi's upper management then be my guest, but they won't know or really care much about that so I don't see what you'd hope to accomplish. > I SEE NOTHING to prove that the conditions that created WC's involvement > don't exist for another CDROM vendor to take it's place. Feel free! You want to learn about the CDROM publishing business and have the moral authority to be this sanctimonious? Go create a distribution and hawk it on the street corner. My posting made it more than clear that this sort of thing will be encouraged and you're perfectly welcome to show how this business model can be profitably sustained. > Was WC financially failing? If so why would BSDi take on more debt, that is > completely stupid. There were a lot of things done in the late 90's which matched that description. We started the merger before the bubble burst and there was VC money raining from the sky. Walnut Creek CDROM had never shown itself to be adept at dealing with VCs and the BSDi top management folks claimed they could get money simply by walking outside and opening an umbrella, so we grasped at that particular straw because our other options looked even more bleak. Of course, the bubble did burst and the VC money we would have used to make up various shortfalls never materialized, but if you want to indict us for being stupid then you should also point your fingers in a lot of other directions because people a lot smarter than we were also bet (and lost) on the same market horse. > Plenty of other CD distributors WERN'T failing and the > CD distribution model is going great guns today. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. > Do you really think that people would prefer to FTP the distribution > when they can pick up the phone, make an 800 call and have it > next-day shipped to them? And 3/4 of the time they just expense it > to their company so they pay nothing anyway? Now your talking about > FIVE ISO's, think of all the users that have problems getting even > ONE down. Not everyone out here has fast DSL and Cable - in fact > the majority don't. FINE. As I keep saying, put your money where your mouth all too visibly is and do something about it if you think it's so easy to set up this kind of infrastructure and run it properly. Your entire rant is full of half-baked assertions and a buttload of assumptions which are frankly as false as Tammy Faye Bakker's eyelashes. If I were less polite I'd make even more references to the scatological percentage of your various internal organs, but I won't go there. You have already been inflammatory enough in your own posting and, as Paul Vixie likes to say: "your bozo bit is set." > BSDi was run by morons when they bought WC and we know that's not > true. We do? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 13:46: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D0D5537B406 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:45:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wmoran@iowna.com) Received: (qmail 96686 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2001 20:54:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO iowna.com) (151.201.71.193) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2001 20:54:47 -0000 Message-ID: <3B4622B2.FD88CE18@iowna.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 16:42:26 -0400 From: Bill Moran X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman wrote: > > Penguin beak? And I keep taking flack for pushing BSD in the Linux > arena. :-) Yes, but taking flack for pushing BSD is good ... taking flack for pushing Linux is bad ;) -Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 14:28:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-93.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0F937B403; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CA2EC66C4D; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:28:18 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:03:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:03:41AM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > We, for example, need to ask ourselves if there even should be an > "official" CD distribution of FreeBSD and, if so, what the selection > criteria for such officiality should be. I was thinking about this the other day. I don't think there's very much money likely to be made in "value-add" CD distributions in the near future -- that requires hard work to add value, and that requires someone being paid to do it. What's likely to happen if we let it is that a number of entities will publish verbatim copies of the "officially produced" ISO images, and do so at production cost + some profit margin which only feeds back into their own pockets. This means that if the larger CD distribution facilities like, say, CheapBytes could do this more cheaply than someone like, say, DaemonNews, the latter will find it very hard to compete without losing money unless they can feed off of some kind of "preferred vendor" status. Entities which are more friendly to the FreeBSD project (like DaemonNews) and who may want to donate a portion of the proceeds to the Foundation will have to take it out of their profit margins and will lose money relative to those that don't. In the past, the officially blessed CD distributor was kicking back money directly to FreeBSD; whatever happens in the future with respect to CD distribution, I think we should make sure this continues to happen in an economically sustainable way. I also don't think people should be thinking about terminating (or even greatly weakening) the CD distribution relationship with WRS; they're still a big potential funding resource, even if their current FreeBSD sales channel sucks. As I've said in other messages, they're probably still in the stage where they're trying to integrate FreeBSD into their product line, and need customer feedback about how to improve their performance. Kris --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7Ri1xWry0BWjoQKURAtx8AJ99s4bTeSAFudpbCaFZwHjpBoOgDwCgrlXa 5ePycTorrKRasYklGPpqbak= =nC0O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 14:42: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085B837B406; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:41:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (#6@localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f66LeF361632; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:40:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Message-Id: <200107062140.f66LeF361632@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Image-URL: http://www.transsys.com/louie/images/louie-mail.jpg From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jul 2001 14:28:18 PDT." <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:40:15 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I was thinking about this the other day. I don't think there's very > much money likely to be made in "value-add" CD distributions in the > near future -- that requires hard work to add value, and that requires > someone being paid to do it. The value-add may have nothing to do with the contents of the CD's. Consider that having a well-run subscription service might be valuable, or perhaps better physical packaging in other than the standard jewel boxes. Or adding some addition disks as part of the set of other useful software or documentation. Perhaps providing sets of pre-built picobsd distributions with floppy images? Maybe with hardcopy versions of the handbook or other documentation. Or perhaps someone with phone-in tech support to help people install, run and support FreeBSD. There's a number of different price points and and value propositions you could shoot for. The tricky bit is finguring out which of the alternatives people want. :-) louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 14:49:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-93.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F373237B40B; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:49:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6D8B266C4D; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:49:35 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: "Louis A. Mamakos" Cc: Kris Kennaway , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010706144935.A61843@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> <200107062140.f66LeF361632@whizzo.transsys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200107062140.f66LeF361632@whizzo.transsys.com>; from louie@TransSys.COM on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:40:15PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:40:15PM -0400, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: >=20 > > I was thinking about this the other day. I don't think there's very > > much money likely to be made in "value-add" CD distributions in the > > near future -- that requires hard work to add value, and that requires > > someone being paid to do it. >=20 > The value-add may have nothing to do with the contents of the CD's. Cons= ider > that having a well-run subscription service might be valuable, or perhaps > better physical packaging in other than the standard jewel boxes. =20 >=20 > Or adding some addition disks as part of the set of other useful software > or documentation. Perhaps providing sets of pre-built picobsd > distributions with floppy images? Maybe with hardcopy versions of > the handbook or other documentation. Or perhaps someone with=20 > phone-in tech support to help people install, run and support FreeBSD. >=20 > There's a number of different price points and and value propositions > you could shoot for. The tricky bit is finguring out which of the > alternatives people want. :-) Yeah, and these all cost money, and are limited-appeal, so they're likely to not make much money, especially if there are other vendors doing similar things. The other side of the coin which I didn't mention is that the FreeBSD distribution market probably isn't big enough to support more than one or two vendors. To some extent that's not our problem, unless they all collapse except for the bare-bones vendors like CheapBytes who don't do anything to directly help the project, in which case we've screwed ourselves out of funding. Kris --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7RjJuWry0BWjoQKURAi6pAKD8vUQb4by+2uIJSss8WxLB1zUQqgCgtwa8 fAkHvfbPlIexNVICcgar77c= =xaPU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --lrZ03NoBR/3+SXJZ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 14:55:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genesis.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8F637B401; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:55:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@tao.org.uk) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id A0E96577; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:55:47 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:55:47 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010706225547.B1799@tao.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: Josef Karthauser , Kris Kennaway , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="aVD9QWMuhilNxW9f" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:28:18PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --aVD9QWMuhilNxW9f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:28:18PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: >=20 > In the past, the officially blessed CD distributor was kicking back > money directly to FreeBSD; whatever happens in the future with respect > to CD distribution, I think we should make sure this continues to > happen in an economically sustainable way. >=20 FSL, I believe, are keen to keep up this tradition also (although I can't speak for what projects they will be supporting). Joe --aVD9QWMuhilNxW9f Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjtGM+IACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZQ0wCdE5hV+iri1XBA1YvtSA0c/tYH RAAAoMKc7zulwM/RD4LzfTXSKM9vUixS =uTSW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --aVD9QWMuhilNxW9f-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 16: 6:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7381D37B405 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:06:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rootman@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.6.8] (helo=blackmirror.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 15Iefn-0000kP-00; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:06:07 -0600 From: Joe Warner To: "Anthony C. Chavez" Subject: Re: Another article mentioning FreeBSD and Microsoft Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 17:02:35 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706082829.A85348@xmission.com> In-Reply-To: <20010706082829.A85348@xmission.com> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01070617053100.00264@blackmirror.xmission.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Can any of you ever forgive me? Only if you help us out and start submitting some stories. 8^) http://daily.daemonnews.org/add_story.php3 Cheers Joe On Fri, 06 Jul 2001, you said: > On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:42:17AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > That's what daily.daemonnews.org is for. > > Is ~that~ what it's for? ;-) > > Seriously, I don't know how that happened but that completely slipped my > mind. I'm so ashamed. Can any of you ever forgive me? > > -- > anthony@xmission.com http://anthonychavez.cjb.net/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ``The only sin is ignorance.'' > -- Nicolo Machiavelli > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Joe Warner Daemon News Bringing BSD Together Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Daily Daemon News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 16:59:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net (smtp4vepub.gte.net [206.46.170.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F391237B406; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from babkin@bellatlantic.net) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-141.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.141]) by smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA50601901; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 23:59:13 GMT Message-ID: <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 19:59:12 -0400 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> <200107062140.f66LeF361632@whizzo.transsys.com> <20010706144935.A61843@xor.obsecurity.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Yeah, and these all cost money, and are limited-appeal, so they're > likely to not make much money, especially if there are other vendors > doing similar things. The other side of the coin which I didn't > mention is that the FreeBSD distribution market probably isn't big > enough to support more than one or two vendors. To some extent that's > not our problem, unless they all collapse except for the bare-bones > vendors like CheapBytes who don't do anything to directly help the > project, in which case we've screwed ourselves out of funding. If the FreeBSD Foundation is an existing entity now, maybe we can just change the license for the CD images to "not for resale" unless the distributor signs an agreement with the Foundation ? -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 20:29: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp97.lemis.com [192.109.197.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D46A37B403 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f66KWRE01494; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:32:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:32:27 +1000 From: Greg Lehey To: David Johnson Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010707063227.F1368@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net> <3B4205CD.51C186FD@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B4205CD.51C186FD@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:50:05AM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 3 July 2001 at 10:50:05 -0700, David Johnson wrote: > > As for naming a particular OS "GNU/FreeBSD", that has been suggested (in > jest) already. RMS' response to it was (grossly paraphrased) > "ridiculous". Not what he said to me. And for what we're talking about, the naming doesn't seem ridiculous to me either, though I don't know why anybody would want a Debian BSD. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 20:29: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp97.lemis.com [192.109.197.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD42637B406 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:28:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f66KVLB01488; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:31:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 06:31:21 +1000 From: Greg Lehey To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning?) Message-ID: <20010707063121.E1368@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:40:16PM -0400 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 2 July 2001 at 21:40:16 -0400, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >> >>> So what you are saying, then, is that 'Free Software' in the FSF definition >>> is not just GPL'ed, but also has the copyright signed over to the FSF so >>> they can 'insure' that the code will remain forever GPL'ed? If so, that is >>> damn scary. >> >> Yup. Thats the idea. See what Stallman has said for XEmacs >> [ quote taken from XEmacs site, URL: >> http://www.xemacs.org/About/XEmacsVsGNUemacs.html ] >> >> The FSF Point of View >> >> Richard Stallman writes: >> >> XEmacs is GNU software because it's a modified version of a >> GNU program. And it is GNU software because the FSF is the >> copyright holder for most of it, and therefore the legal >> responsibility for protecting its free status falls on us >> whether we want it or not. This is why the term "GNU XEmacs" >> is legitimate. >> > > There seems to be a hidden clause in the GPL, that requires anyone who > incorporates any GNU code in their program, or uses any GNU code to > build their program, or ships any GNU code with their program, to call > their program "GNU ". How long before Stallman > starts talking about "GNU FreeBSD"? He's done that. But he was talking about a BSD which would have almost only GNU userland. People keep talking about a Debian GNU/FreeBSD, for example. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 20:30:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (dhcp97.lemis.com [192.109.197.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1BB37B407 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:30:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f6657cu00622; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 22:07:38 -0700 From: Greg Lehey To: Don Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! Message-ID: <20010705220738.J327@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:03:24PM -0600 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 5 July 2001 at 14:03:24 -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > Looks like Eric Wayte was right in his premonition about Wind River > screwing us over. Their freebsdmall website is now a link to something > called BSD Central, and their phone box says 'Welcome to Linux > Central'.... and of course nobody's in in Customer Service. I've heard a number of rumblings about Wind River not living up to their promises. I don't know how accurate they are, but the idea that they would dump us in favour of Linux is pretty much the most unlikely one I can think of. > I ordered a BSD Desktop direct from freebsdmall.com -- at full list > -- because their (old) site claimed it would come with 4.3 > CDs. Guess who's got another obsolete set of 4.1 CDs sitting on his > hands? :-( That's incompetence. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 20:41:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED4937B409; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f673eUt80687; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:40:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: kris@obsecurity.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010706204030E.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 20:40:30 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 58 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 14:28:18 -0700 > What's likely to happen if we let it is that a number of entities will > publish verbatim copies of the "officially produced" ISO images, and > do so at production cost + some profit margin which only feeds back > into their own pockets. Well, you're making several assumptions here, some of which may or may not be true by the time 4.4 is ready to go to press: 1. That the "officially produced" ISO images aren't already done with 100% volunteer labor and hence, in the strictest sense of the word, the property of the project and not any one company who didn't actually invest in those 5 images (they may invest in some other value-add, but that's to judge an unknown quantity right now). 2. That whomever's doing the "officially produced" ISO images will, indeed, be funneling any profits back to the FreeBSD Foundation or through some other donation vehicle they work out. This has always been done on the honor system in the past, and that's a lot easier to arrange and keep going with a small company. Large companies sign contracts and have lots of lawyers around when they enter into agreements like this, on the other hand, and that's something which has traditionally mitigated against successful negotations of this nature. We'll have to see. > facilities like, say, CheapBytes could do this more cheaply than > someone like, say, DaemonNews, the latter will find it very hard to > compete without losing money unless they can feed off of some kind of > "preferred vendor" status. Entities which are more friendly to the Well, based at least on the reaction I got from the other assembled developers at USENIX, I tend to think that having a "preferred vendor" has fallen somewhat out of fashion with the project. I don't think anyone wants to get burned by the perception of having too close a tie with anyone in the future, to say nothing of the wide-spread rumor mongering about "the project dying" that starts up every time any company even remotely connected with the project has difficulties, and I think it's now encumbent on this project to demonstrate that it's bigger than any one relationship and will, at worst, merely lose some replaceable assets if one goes away. > I also don't think people should be thinking about terminating (or > even greatly weakening) the CD distribution relationship with WRS; > they're still a big potential funding resource, even if their current > FreeBSD sales channel sucks. Again, I think whether the distribution relationship is strong or weak in the future depends a lot more on WRS (or anyone else in the same position) than it depends on anything the project does now. The best the project can do is operate in the general interest and try for "optimum separation" between it and any 3rd party, where optimum is the right balance between cooperation and independence, both actual and perceived. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 20:50:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4394037B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f673lZt80742; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: babkin@bellatlantic.net Cc: kris@obsecurity.org, louie@TransSys.COM, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net> References: <200107062140.f66LeF361632@whizzo.transsys.com> <20010706144935.A61843@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010706204735V.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 20:47:35 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 18 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From: Sergey Babkin Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 19:59:12 -0400 > If the FreeBSD Foundation is an existing entity now, maybe we > can just change the license for the CD images to "not for resale" > unless the distributor signs an agreement with the Foundation ? I think that creates a rather significant tie to the foundation that currently does not exist and may not even want to exist. The foundation currently operates with a good deal of autonomy, after all, and its founders apparently like it that way. The foundation is not beholden to core or anyone but its officers, and folks just have to trust them to do the right thing. Which is as it should be. Any closer ties would probably create more problems than they were potentially designed to solve. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 6 21:45: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7FA37B405; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 21:44:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shannon@daydream.shannon.net) Received: from [209.96.185.131] (helo=escape.shannon.net) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 15Ijxd-00006o-00; Sat, 07 Jul 2001 00:44:54 -0400 Received: from daydream (daydream.shannon.net [192.168.1.10]) by escape.shannon.net (8.11.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id f674Nkg16548; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 00:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shannon by daydream with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15Ijd7-0004tY-00; Sat, 07 Jul 2001 00:23:41 -0400 Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 00:23:41 -0400 From: Shannon Hendrix To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010707002340.B16071@widomaker.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706020341B.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010706142817.A61100@xor.obsecurity.org> <200107062140.f66LeF361632@whizzo.transsys.com> <20010706144935.A61843@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:59:12PM -0400, Sergey Babkin wrote: > If the FreeBSD Foundation is an existing entity now, maybe we > can just change the license for the CD images to "not for resale" > unless the distributor signs an agreement with the Foundation ? I don't think this is a good idea. The foundation can give a certain CD vendor official status without limiting the rest. This is how things were in the past, and it seemed OK to me. For example, I occasionally bought the "offical" CD set from whoever was selling it. I could get it much cheaper elsewhere, but wanted to contribute money from time to time to help the project and the vendors who supported it. However, I didn't want to pay that much for CDs of the minor updates, so I usually got those from Cheap Bytes, or got a friend with fast network access to get it for me. As a FreeBSD user, I found this a useful way of doing business. Will a company like Cheap Bytes really do that much damage to the "official" vendor? The only thing I'm concerned with _as_a_user_, is that anyone who distributes CDs uses what the core team supports as "being FreeBSD". I'd hate to see someone roll their own and call it FreeBSD. -- "The determined programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language." ______________________________________________________________________ Charles Shannon Hendrix s h a n n o n @ w i d o m a k e r . c o m To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 0:12:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B9F37B401; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 00:12:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f677BLn32137; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 09:11:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Sergey Babkin Cc: Kris Kennaway , "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jul 2001 19:59:12 EDT." <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 09:11:21 +0200 Message-ID: <32135.994489881@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net>, Sergey Babkin writes: >If the FreeBSD Foundation is an existing entity now, maybe we >can just change the license for the CD images to "not for resale" >unless the distributor signs an agreement with the Foundation ? Why on _earth_ would we make it so hard for people to get hold of a media copy of FreeBSD, when absolutely nothing prevents me or anybody else from rolling a net distribution ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 1:17:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [65.0.135.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA01F37B405; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 01:17:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f678HVM71058; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 01:17:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952F7380F; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 01:17:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Sergey Babkin , Kris Kennaway , "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <32135.994489881@critter> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 01:17:31 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20010707081731.952F7380F@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net>, Sergey Babkin writes: > > >If the FreeBSD Foundation is an existing entity now, maybe we > >can just change the license for the CD images to "not for resale" > >unless the distributor signs an agreement with the Foundation ? > > Why on _earth_ would we make it so hard for people to get hold > of a media copy of FreeBSD, when absolutely nothing prevents > me or anybody else from rolling a net distribution ? Well said! Keep the big picture in mind folks.. The objective here is to get FreeBSD into as many people's hands as practical. Hell, if Microsoft phoned up tomorrow asking whether they could sell a pre-packaged FreeBSD CD-ROM kit, I'd roll some masters personally and fly them overnight to make sure that nothing went wrong! And if some organization is funding developers to work on FreeBSD full time, then I personally would go out of my way to help them too, should they need something. (several spring to mind) All this hot air about "protecting" the .iso's is the *least* of our worries. The bigger issue is getting them "out there", not restricting them. The more the better. Can we go and get a life now please? Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 7:23:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D06C37B403; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 07:23:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f67EO1K92071; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 08:24:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B471B61.23937991@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 08:23:29 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! References: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010705220738.J327@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thursday, 5 July 2001 at 14:03:24 -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > > Looks like Eric Wayte was right in his premonition about Wind River > > screwing us over. Their freebsdmall website is now a link to something > > called BSD Central, and their phone box says 'Welcome to Linux > > Central'.... and of course nobody's in in Customer Service. > > I've heard a number of rumblings about Wind River not living up to > their promises. I don't know how accurate they are, but the idea that > they would dump us in favour of Linux is pretty much the most unlikely > one I can think of. > Agreed, but to dump our CDs into their hands and funnel FreeBSDmall visitors there is pretty cheap. > > I ordered a BSD Desktop direct from freebsdmall.com -- at full list > > -- because their (old) site claimed it would come with 4.3 > > CDs. Guess who's got another obsolete set of 4.1 CDs sitting on his > > hands? :-( > > That's incompetence. > Isn't it though? Wind River survives in the embedded world because their software is so pricey the government thinks it must be worth something, and therefore we Americans have the privilege of paying for it with our taxes. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 9:24:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po3.glue.umd.edu (po3.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20FC337B407; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 09:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@y.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.68]) by po3.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f67GOWS17167; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from y.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08095; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by y.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08091; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:24:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: y.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:24:32 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning?) In-Reply-To: <20010707063121.E1368@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Jul 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > He's done that. But he was talking about a BSD which would have > almost only GNU userland. People keep talking about a Debian > GNU/FreeBSD, for example. They did produce one. However, I could not find any links to it a few weeks ago when I tried to find it. It would be far more interesting to see the BSD userland on top of the Linux kernel. I tried seeing what I could get t owork one day. When even cat segfaults, poor times are ahead. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 9:45: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailbox.univie.ac.at (mailbox.univie.ac.at [131.130.1.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD7C437B406; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 09:44:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from l.ertl@univie.ac.at) Received: from le.adsl.cc.univie.ac.at (le.adsl.cc.univie.ac.at [193.171.3.9]) by mailbox.univie.ac.at (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f67GigG92982; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:44:43 +0200 Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:45:26 +0200 (CEST) From: Lukas Ertl X-X-Sender: To: James Howard Cc: Greg Lehey , "Thomas M. Sommers" , Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010707184203.Q487-100000@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Jul 2001, James Howard wrote: > On Sat, 7 Jul 2001, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > He's done that. But he was talking about a BSD which would have > > almost only GNU userland. People keep talking about a Debian > > GNU/FreeBSD, for example. > > They did produce one. However, I could not find any links to it a few > weeks ago when I tried to find it. It would be far more interesting to Debian tries to create a Debian/BSD, with a NetBSD kernel and GNU utilities all around (although it seems that one could use generic NetBSD tools too). Take a look at the mailing-list archives: Although I personally see absolutely no need for a Debian/BSD. regards, le --=20 Lukas Ertl eMail: l.ertl@univie.ac.at WWW-Redaktion Tel.: (+43 1) 4277-14073 Zentraler Informatikdienst (ZID) Fax.: (+43 1) 4277-9140 der Universit=E4t Wien To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 9:56: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp3.knology.net (user-24-214-63-13.knology.net [24.214.63.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B411937B405 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 09:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@havk.org) Received: (qmail 7908 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2001 16:56:03 -0000 Received: from user-24-214-56-224.knology.net (HELO bsd.havk.org) (24.214.56.224) by user-24-214-63-13.knology.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 2001 16:56:03 -0000 Received: by bsd.havk.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 70BFD1A7B5; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:55:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:55:36 -0500 From: Steve Price To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning?) Message-ID: <20010707115536.M93367@bsd.havk.org> References: <20010707063121.E1368@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from howardjp@Glue.umd.edu on Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 12:24:32PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 12:24:32PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > > > He's done that. But he was talking about a BSD which would have > > almost only GNU userland. People keep talking about a Debian > > GNU/FreeBSD, for example. > > They did produce one. However, I could not find any links to it a few > weeks ago when I tried to find it. Not true. After a year or more of talking about it the project has produced little more than a port of dpkg. Some people have claimed to have gone much further than this but nobody has produced any code much less a distribution. Every so often the interest picks back up and they argue over which of the BSDs to use as a base, whether they should use a GNU or BSD userland, ... In fact, just moments ago someone posted wondering what the benefits of DebianBSD would be and wondered if a NetBSD package that mimiced the Debian way wouldn't be the proper path. To which someone replied that that wouldn't be a true Debian. It really is quite comical at times. Nearly everyone interested in the project wants a BSD kernel because they feel it is better than Linux or because (Net)BSD has been ported to more platforms. They always come back to the same thing. They want dpkg and friends on BSD but they want it to still be Debian and in some way Linux. Deep down inside they really like BSD and want to use it instead but still want to be "cool" and say that they are using Linux. :) I'm not belittling them by any means and this is all IMHO of course so if there are any trolls out there - flames to /dev/null. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 15:11:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0502437B401; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:11:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [172.16.0.12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f67MCAr12363; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:12:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@lan.Awfulhak.org) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f67MCEn37752; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 23:12:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <200107072212.f67MCEn37752@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Josef Karthauser , Richard Hodges , Kris Kennaway , Ted Mittelstaedt , Jordan Hubbard Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Brian Somers , Paul Richards Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: Message from Josef Karthauser of "Fri, 06 Jul 2001 22:55:47 BST." <20010706225547.B1799@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 23:12:14 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:28:18PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >=20 > > In the past, the officially blessed CD distributor was kicking back > > money directly to FreeBSD; whatever happens in the future with respect > > to CD distribution, I think we should make sure this continues to > > happen in an economically sustainable way. > >=20 > > FSL, I believe, are keen to keep up this tradition also (although I > can't speak for what projects they will be supporting). To qualify this (a little), we (FSL == FreeBSD Services Ltd) will be distributing a FreeBSD-4.4 DVD set. The profits will be used to fund developers (Paul Richards, Mark Murray and I to start with) initially in the form of our wages, but eventually in more diverse ways that are beneficial to the project at large. We also plan to adopt the give-free-DVDs-to-all-developers approach subject to our financial success. To give people confidence in our abilities, we gave away about 350 FreeBSD-4.3 DVDs at Usenix last week -- samples of what's to come (and proof that we can produce). http://www.FreeBSD-services.com/ has more details (please feel free to register for further updates). Richard Hodges wrote: > And as far as distribution goes, if my vote counts, I would suggest > that anyone should have the right to sell (or give away) copies for > whatever price they want. The more copies, the better! I fail to > see why FreeBSD distribution should be "guided" to certain entities > based on their political contributions. FSL have thought quite a bit about this -- what's acceptable as a FreeBSD release. We need some sort of balance. On one hand, we (the FreeBSD project) want to encourage distributors to produce copies of FreeBSD with added-value. On the other hand, we don't want to end up with the linux-effect. The idea of producing standard distributions on which vendors can base their projects means that we can keep control of the base system - ensuring that the evolution of different flavours of FreeBSD are based on what *we* want, not on what someone's marketing department wants. For example, a good way for a vendor to build their own flavour of FreeBSD might be to provide a ``Vendor-Desktop'' port/package that people can select from sysinstall to give them everything that the vendor wants to provide as standard, maybe even including proprietary stuff. So I think the idea of an ``official'' distribution is good, but only insofar as that implies that the distribution contains a specific base system. Anyone who mucks about with that official base system in a way that's not controlled by the user should not be allowed to call their distribution ``official''. Kris Kennaway wrote: > What's likely to happen if we let it is that a number of entities will > publish verbatim copies of the "officially produced" ISO images, and > do so at production cost + some profit margin which only feeds back > into their own pockets. This means that if the larger CD distribution > facilities like, say, CheapBytes could do this more cheaply than > someone like, say, DaemonNews, the latter will find it very hard to > compete without losing money unless they can feed off of some kind of > "preferred vendor" status. Entities which are more friendly to the > FreeBSD project (like DaemonNews) and who may want to donate a portion > of the proceeds to the Foundation will have to take it out of their > profit margins and will lose money relative to those that don't. > > In the past, the officially blessed CD distributor was kicking back > money directly to FreeBSD; whatever happens in the future with respect > to CD distribution, I think we should make sure this continues to > happen in an economically sustainable way. I don't think we'll get away with ``favouring'' certain distributors. It's not really with the spirit of things. As Jordan has said, the kick-back contributions have always been very much appreciated, but not based on any official agreements. I personally believe that the distributors who contribute stuff back will continue to be favoured - but maybe I'm being idealistic. Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > So, are you ready for $100-per-box FreeBSD distros? Do you think the > FreeBSD userbase is? Boy, now THAT's sure an advance for the customer! I think you're over-reacting Ted. FSL are planning on selling the two-DVD set for around $40.00. We may even be putting a CD on the other side of the initial disc (that may put costs up by a few $$, but will benefit more people), but the FreeBSD community will continue to get reasonable value. The $100 vendors will just simply sink. Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Also, when Wes said the following: > > > Specifically, we need a Product Manager who can shepherd FreeBSD through > > the release process, and coordinate with CD-ROM distributor(s) who are > > I think he perhaps wasn't clear on the fact that I'll still be > "shepherding FreeBSD through the release process" and working with > many of the very same FreeBSD volunteers to organize the bits, there > just won't be any "official tie" to any one distributor. Given > WindRiver's recent redirection of orders to BSD Central which started > all this fuss, it's not even clear to us that they want to stay in the > CDROM business anyway, but if they or anyone else (like the DVD folks) > want to "coordinate" with us then they can do so simply by sending us, > the volunteer release engineering and QA team, email with their > requirements. We'll do as much to oblige them as the project has > always done for any FreeBSD customer who's approached it with a > reasonable request for increasing FreeBSD's mindshare or ease of use. I think this approach is key, and reflects what the FreeBSD community has been doing from day one -- part of what attracted me to the project in the first place. We're all here because we enjoy doing our bit for the project. We're now at a point where people are likely to start marketing us in more diverse ways than before, and we should try to get on top of the situation before it gets on top of us. We have some interesting times coming up in the next few months :) -- Brian http://www.freebsd-services.com/ Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 18:28:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0B637B403; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=9d1e3d1872eaca7083b725e93d9c8d62) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15J3SI-0000KN-00; Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:33:50 -0600 Message-ID: <3B47B87E.78068C23@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:33:50 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Wilde Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! References: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010705220738.J327@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3B471B61.23937991@Silver-Lynx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > Isn't it though? Wind River survives in the embedded world because their > software is so pricey the government thinks it must be worth something, > and therefore we Americans have the privilege of paying for it with our That's a little over the top. Wind River survives in the embbedded world because they provide products and support that outshine those of all their competitors. That may say something about the quality of their competitors that is uncomfortable to contemplate. Wind River has, I'm certain, experienced a lot of pressure from the various embedded Linux vendors. Embedded Linux offers a lot of functionality at a very low price point, and draws from a large base of relatively knowlegable programmers; it has all the same advantages I outlined for embedded BSD systems in a Daemon's Advocate column a couple of years ago. Depending on your viewpoint, it may or may not have a disadvantage in the licensing. Give WRS credit for at least seeing the value in providing embedded BSD systems as an alternative to their customers looking for a more functional (and less real-time) embedded system. If WRS, BSD/Linux Central, or anyone else are not meeting our needs, we simply need to steer the FreeBSD Project in another direction. Please join us in discussing how best to do that, rather than deriding the company who is currently struggling to meet our demands for goods and services. They're pretty new at this kind of volume, you know. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 18:45:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72C4C37B401 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=e2d8a1f09731bc264a474e2c197f19f2) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15J3iY-0000Ky-00; Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:50:38 -0600 Message-ID: <3B47BC6E.11BA2163@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:50:38 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stijn Hoop Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD ISOs & redistribution [was Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral] References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706092541.C23117@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010706104152.C96591@pcwin002.win.tue.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stijn Hoop wrote: > > If five ISO images are available, people *will* get confused about what is > the right one to install FreeBSD, not to mention that people will > (try to) download all four discs when they only need one (talk about > waste of bandwidth). You're missing the point: the ISOs aren't for users, they're for people making CD-ROMs. If you need some hand-holding, you should buy from one of the lovely companies that will use the ISOs to make you a FreeBSD CD-ROM and bundle it with installation instructions, tech support lines, etc. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 18:56: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839C937B401 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:56:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f681uIK91285; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 19:56:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B47BD9F.172157AE@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 19:55:43 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Eric, you were right! References: <3B44C80C.FF06D16C@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010705220738.J327@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <3B471B61.23937991@Silver-Lynx.com> <3B47B87E.78068C23@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Don Wilde wrote: > > > > Isn't it though? Wind River survives in the embedded world because their > > software is so pricey the government thinks it must be worth something, > > and therefore we Americans have the privilege of paying for it with our > > That's a little over the top. Wind River survives in the embbedded > world because they provide products and support that outshine those > of all their competitors. That may say something about the quality > of their competitors that is uncomfortable to contemplate. > Perhaps, but I will note that their products also require a lot of CPU cycles (somewhat like another 8-ton gorilla I won't mention again). They've caused a lot of VME-68K board sales into apps that didn't need that horsepower, and the difficulty of diving deep with their environment has caused several projects I am aware of to waste hundreds of extra manhours over budget. > Wind River has, I'm certain, experienced a lot of pressure from the > various embedded Linux vendors. Embedded Linux offers a lot of > functionality at a very low price point, and draws from a large > base of relatively knowlegable programmers; it has all the same > advantages I outlined for embedded BSD systems in a Daemon's Advocate > column a couple of years ago. Depending on your viewpoint, it may > or may not have a disadvantage in the licensing. > > Give WRS credit for at least seeing the value in providing embedded > BSD systems as an alternative to their customers looking for a more > functional (and less real-time) embedded system. > > If WRS, BSD/Linux Central, or anyone else are not meeting our needs, > we simply need to steer the FreeBSD Project in another direction. > Please join us in discussing how best to do that, rather than deriding > the company who is currently struggling to meet our demands for goods > and services. They're pretty new at this kind of volume, you know. ;^) > Again, Wes, I have yet to hear back about my politely-phrased complaint. If they sell a product, they better answer the phone. I don't see them bothering to struggle. As for becoming more positive, I am all for positive action. Chris Coleman asked for support, and I dinged my CC on his website for several times the amount of a subscription. I am ready and willing to support the others who I don't know personally as they put their actions on display, over and above my personal product needs. Myself, I think the 501c3 Foundation is a bright answer whose time has come. We do also need commercial support, and one reason I haven't contributed more directly to the Project has been that it _isn't_ a tax writeoff. You all know my attitude towards those ^H^H^H^H... never mind. :-D The Foundation will give us a focus point, and I believe it will open up a lot more support than has been forthcoming from those of us who can't afford to support a core-team member yet. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 7 21:25:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net (smtp4vepub.gte.net [206.46.170.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA7837B403; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 21:25:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from babkin@bellatlantic.net) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-135-226.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.135.226]) by smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA51499357; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 04:24:14 GMT Message-ID: <3B47E06D.32067E46@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 00:24:13 -0400 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Wemm Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Kris Kennaway , "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <20010707081731.952F7380F@overcee.netplex.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Wemm wrote: > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net>, Sergey Babkin writes: > > > > >If the FreeBSD Foundation is an existing entity now, maybe we > > >can just change the license for the CD images to "not for resale" > > >unless the distributor signs an agreement with the Foundation ? First, I want to say that after Jordan's explanation I agree that this is not a worty idea, at least for now. So the further is just for a more clear explanation. > > Why on _earth_ would we make it so hard for people to get hold > > of a media copy of FreeBSD, when absolutely nothing prevents For example, to help fund the release engineering process. > > me or anybody else from rolling a net distribution ? If buying the rights to the "official" distribution is cheaper, why would anyone want to redo it ? > And if some organization is funding developers to work on FreeBSD full > time, then I personally would go out of my way to help them too, should > they need something. (several spring to mind) > > All this hot air about "protecting" the .iso's is the *least* of our It's not about protecting. It's about financiallly stimulating more organizations to fund developers to work on FreeBSD. The ISO image distribution rights don't have to be exchanged for money, they may just as well (and better) be exchanged for such support. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message