From owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Sun Oct 7 18:20:38 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FD210C8949 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2018 18:20:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x131.google.com (mail-it1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F7618E500 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2018 18:20:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x131.google.com with SMTP id q70-v6so8735838itb.3 for ; Sun, 07 Oct 2018 11:20:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yP02jxEiVbTYWZWoRL/F+zNe0Gbaxt8xhNTOLXPn4xU=; b=qMJpXP2NPQRrD7g5q58klSrRmN5pmtPtYc7cmIBLgk3vR9JpMZHBkhFr/eF8c0zPOy tdrUTrAy8h0+r7IaCeA2/UdGJmmj4K6EPDbKZsNW7efGb60uC3PI9YS7FbuSYkY//tBI B+UUhCaB2XHYaCouXGYZpOxEcJpg3zYwndkkrp/zWg+46WET9II8CR7rU9Cc1/viKBUW oN501UmO+Ei04hNpv04I9HpXwPyY2pwgw/RcrJpTQzZLSyGp8POIgfrPT52HaGId4iyZ cCmLS/psXt9g+RGk+dER9TDCJR24OvGDQZp9UHuJaWIyPeRbslRCQmqrwNCAxyqoYvPq ZZGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yP02jxEiVbTYWZWoRL/F+zNe0Gbaxt8xhNTOLXPn4xU=; b=Z+TlnEnSuVhKzkHhOI8eEYJm58W6mku0sD8kDqHUpWC8Z1EYi1+foWUmdVk77lpMYF Id28QGfUktU4o+NvNWm4nLwqauYeznxqscOSuynfc/2C/MYv8/FFj8x8Zccfx/tAAdbP lA/lsKTk6RE8zZvLlEdzcR5acd3j0d4q4gRDjVcgs8YdowLAKs4JM1V7kMgt1CaraOIf FuSa0Pcm5rrnbFNaDZb+KdGBMBQHhWNBdzYzBxEXpHyu5I1m64wimXDgkps90eOatCU3 3O9tApoU2D37dT5NcKuILwxSd+fY+2v5pQOIDkWzCFUe27QZLBGWqO/wuLL6fC5uX3PY grRA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfohFPmhF6G+csc0TZ6tO1Hz2M6doYa+LslxBbJoXjU5yZza8P52x CaVI6SICtHIsvU0QaB42rW29H6gTYtWQFAG6NsSDHA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV63GS8mGl8QOK8AjHOq/X6n4uH9K/67v7Ehm8gCYtd/Joj5wrfXhv7MSv25nfZElzpeL+hu99ahdNG2iNfAHZk0= X-Received: by 2002:a24:9ed7:: with SMTP id p206-v6mr1104777itd.39.1538936437218; Sun, 07 Oct 2018 11:20:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warner Losh Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 12:20:25 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: dmesg submission service -- please submit today To: hruodr@gmail.com Cc: FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 18:20:38 -0000 On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 11:11 AM Roderick wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2018, Warner Losh wrote: > > > As you can tell, the project is looking to clear some of the deadwood > from > > its driver lists. One problem is that we have to guess what's in used > based > > on our personal experience. This has proven to be less reliable than > hoped > > in the 10/100 discussions that are going on now. > > Should I dump a dmesg with any device I have connected to every computer > I have? Deadline today? > > Or better I risk not be able to read data on old SCSI discs I am not > using now? > There's no deadline, per se. And there will be at least two drivers that will survive the purge (ahc and mpt). At the present time, they are the only two known to be working for real workloads. So chances are you are already using one of these devices, and if not they are cheap, so there will be a fallback to getting data off of parallel SCSI disks, as well as continued support for parallel scsi tape drives, scsi CD, etc. FreeBSD will support a way to access these devices for years to come. The reason I'm looking at this is because CAM has become rather twisted in places over the years. Many of the reasons for the twistiness can be traced directly to weird workarounds for devices that are almost certainly no longer in use. I'd like to eliminate them. Some can be eliminated because they were for a particular ISA device that's no longer in the tree. But I can't do the others until I know which ones, if any, need to remain. This is why I was asking for dmesgs now so I can start to get a feel for which devices are even still in use on any FreeBSD version, let alone more modern ones. Looking at the NIC data it's clear that we have devices that are wildly popular, and then ones that aren't used with very little in between. Unlike in NIC land, there's a more real and tangible cost that I can point to for continuing old devices in the tree, and I said 'about a month from now' so I can come up with examples of what's a problem, as well as look at data to see what devices still have users, etc, to avoid some of the back-and-forth that we had at the start of the 10/100 discussions as people with devices that turned out to be popular rightly complained. I think having a well articulated reason other than 'it's old' will also help the community understand the cost of keeping things in the tree so we can better judge of the current level of 'benefit' justifies that cost. And any elimination will be safely past 12.0 and won't be back-ported, so anything that works today should work for 12.x releases over the next 3-5 years at the very least. I know that these kinds of discussions can be fraught and I'm doing my best to be honest and open about what's going in, why we want to do thing, and giving plenty of time for the communities that are using FreeBSD to let us know of that use in advance of any decisions being made. I'm hoping the extra data people provide will help us make the initial selection process be more data driven rather than 'best guess' which turned out to be not very good. tl;dr: Not removing anything before 12, devices documented as still working will remain, there's cheap alternatives for removed drivers, don't panic. Warner