Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 05:20:55 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans <lcremeans@erols.com> To: Allen Campbell <allenc@verinet.com> Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] Message-ID: <19990428052055.B31332@erols.com> In-Reply-To: <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com>; from Allen Campbell on Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 08:27:00PM -0600 References: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com>
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On Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 08:27:00PM -0600, Allen Campbell wrote: [Just so people know, I'm only 21, have no children, but have lived with younger brothers for years. That said, there are just some feelings I wanna get out about this.] > Terry Lambert wrote: > > I put the problems today down to children being "protected" from > > the knowledge that there are consequences to their actions. > > > > It used to be that if your child misbehaved at school, the child > > would be sent to the principal's office and, if necessary, given > > negative reinforcement for the misbehaviour by the principal as > > a proxy for the absent parent. > > > > Thus even if the parent failed to teach the child that there were > > consequences to ones actions, the school protected society at large > > by making it clear that the parents were not representative of the > > arger society, and that the larger society was where the child would > > be living, at least part time, and theat they better learn the rules > > which members of the society are expected to follow. > > > > This was our social "safety net"; now if a parent spanks the > > child, the child can get the parent arrested, and schools are > > permitted the same leeway as a British Bobby -- namely, they can > > yell "Stop, or I shall yell 'stop' again!". > > Could it really be this simple? I have to point out that discipline > applied by a lout only breeds resentment. Authority must be worthy of > respect before punishment of any sort, martial or otherwise, can result > in positive behavioral change. I submit that the typical divorcee > boomer parent has no one fooled, most especially the kids. Living at > work to earn a Beamer while Nintendo baby sits the live-in 'Goth' does > not, at some reserved point in time, give way to wholesome and > respectful relations. I feel the same way about this...what people seem to imagine when they hear "spanking" means having the living hell beaten out of little Johnnie or Katie with "the buckle in the belt" by an incoherently angry (preferably piss-drunk) dad. Personally, if and when I have kids, I would not "spank" them...maybe a slap on the wrist if necessary, but nothing really severe. For the other point -- absent parents -- it seems like there's a whole common thread in society, not just parenting, that needs to be addressed. The US, as a general whole, is unbelievably shallow. The key word is "convenience" -- people are used to doing things the quick and easy way, rather than taking the time and "slaving" over it. Look at the proliferation of things that are "quick and easy": we have convenience foods and fast food, convenience stores, FedEx, the Internet itself...and the list goes on and on. It also comes with a strong dollop of "you have to conform to this or else" -- non-believers get beaten up, picked on, ridiculed, even killed. One of these things is the way we react when a tragedy like this occurs. When something happens that 1) is horrible 2) we couldn't control 3) involves actual people with weapons instead of a machine that failed, people tend to deny that something is wrong (it'd upset their convenient culture) and look for the "quick and easy" way out -- and in our culture, the convenient way is to find a scapegoat and either sue it or legislate it out of existence. In the end, that ends up benefiting the lawyers or the Congresspeople and police more than it does anyone else. Kids that fit the "description", defend the shooters in any way, or anything else considered "dangerous" are harassed for no good reason other than to satisfy the need for this placement of blame, and to "kill the wabbit!" as it were. Also, consider the fact that, in a lot of school environments, if you're not beautiful, mindless, and staunchly loyal to school spirit, you become a non-believer, an outcast. I remember hating the show "saved by the bell" and just about every other high-school comedy because it put forth this image that the Beautiful People always get whatever they want, and the "geeks", "nerds", and "weirdoes" get laughed at and slammed into lockers. Part of this was because my school experience wasn't like that; I was hardly one of the jocks (I never did like sports), but I had people who respected me, at least, that were jocks and SCA people and such. Of course, it's not the same for everyone. And the hell of it is, when the Beautiful People kick some "non-believer's" ass, a lot of times the school authorities look the other way, write the person off as a "troublemaker" and never tell the parents until it's far too late. > > My sister is a "hands off" parent; the most frequent question she > > voices in response to compaints by other parents about one of my > > nephews is "but what could I do?". She won't accept the answer > > "spank him when he exhibits socially unacceptable behaviour". My > > nephew wears gang paraphenalia, which makes sense, since he is one > > of the, to be politically correct, "peer group leaders" at his school. > > > > With no adult enforcement of acceptable behaviour, I can only hope > > he lives long enough to attend and then graduate high school and > > join the Marines, since no one else is permitted (by my sister) to > > teach him self discipline. > > > > I find it surprising that people who have to think in statements > > like "if A then B" have such a hard time internalizing the idea of > > action and reaction. > > > > In my experience, most people who exhibit socially acceptable > > behaviour do so for fear of the consequences, not because people > > are inherently nice creatures at some genetic level. > > I think this notion needs to be applied to the parents of the 'Trench > Coat Mafia' generation. If these boomers can't be expected to nurture > and discipline their spawn such that they mature into something > worthwhile, then perhaps we must codify criminal liability into > parenthood. Fear of the consequences of their children's actions might > mitigate some of this if not lead to some measure of improvement, > assuming the consequences were actually enforced. Unfortunately, the > current state of parenting suggests this as one imperative which, before > our time, has not existed. I've heard people suggest that people actually get licenses to have children...a bit extreme, I'd say (you can't control sex and reproduction THAT easily), but I'd definitely say a good parenting class is a MUST for anyone expecting a child. Maybe with refresher courses for each subsequent. I don't know about criminal responsibility, though...there are already negligence laws on the books, but they only seem to come into play when you more or less abandon a child. > Thanks for moving this thread to -chat from wherever it came. I really > needed to experience some thoughtful and rational opinions on this. I > live about 60 miles North of Columbine in Fort Collins, Colorado. > Naturally, a great deal of informal discussion is taking place amongst > my neighbors and co-workers. I've been forced to avoid most of it; the > level of ignorance and self-deception is not tolerable. *sigh* indeed...I've not heard much about it from others except on IRC (not #freebsd, but #watertower on WTnet, which is where pretty much all of my longterm IRC buddies are), but every time I turn on the radio, it's "Congress is searching for answers to the Littleton tragedy"...more denial. They want the "quick and easy" way out, a "anti-sorrow" pill that'll make it all go away. I've got news for Congress...Homie don't play that. The best "answer" lies with the parents. Parents need to *parent* their children, talk to them, find out what's going on in their minds. The parents of the Littleton shooters had no CLUE what was happening, and the kids had been planning this for a whole year. :/ No amount of pointing fingers, suing people, or enacting new laws will make this go away...there will always be bad apples, and as I said before, more lawsuits and laws help no one but the lawyers and the police. Of course, this is highly "inconvenient", so people'd rather keep pointing fingers and fighting over it. As for the bigger picture, our society as a whole is a big problem. As I said before, it's the whole thing with laziness, conformity and greed. We've become a nation of whiny, self-important, bleating sheep, to put it bluntly. No one wants to *do* anything because it's "too hard" or "doesn't fit into my busy schedule" or "costs way too much, I'd rather do sheepy stuff with the money instead. now where's that 42-inch big-screen home theater at?". We've dropped from world's best in math and science to rock-bottom in the past 30 years. Voter turnout for polls is at an all-time low. We only have two major political parties, when some countries have 5 or even more, and when someone opens their mouth about a political issue, the chances are very high it'll be culled directly from the Republican or Democratic agenda sight unseen. We can't think for ourselves, we let the people that run the media do it, and then it comes down to money instead of the best interests of the people. We also can't take any responsibility for our actions -- the way the President handled the whole Lewinsky debacle is a glaring example of this, not to mention the OJ trial 4 years ago. What we need is more free thought. Don't be afraid to stand up to your boss (or yourself!) and stay home with your kids when you need to. Read up on things before you buy them. Go to vote, and if you don't like the candidates and you're allowed to do it, write one in. Get away from the TV and the computer and read a good book once in a while. When you watch TV, find something that makes you think about things rationally, instead of jumping to conclusions and looking for a neck to choke. And don't forget to look at yourself. Everything has a consequence or side-effect; if you do something with huge consequences, for God's sake, THINK ABOUT IT beforehand. And if you do something bad, it's not anyone's fault but your own; to say otherwise is to be a sheep. -lee -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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