Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:08:57 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@cygnus.rush.net> To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net> Cc: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>, Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@AUSS2.ALCATEL.COM.AU>, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: panic: zone: entry not free Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990311135252.1330i-100000@cygnus.rush.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9903110402290.43830-100000@picnic.mat.net>
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On Thu, 11 Mar 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > > :> : > > :> :This means that invariants need to add relatively little overhead. > > :> : > > :> :Peter > > :> > > :> .... which they do. > > : > > :You know, guys, for programmers, wanting immediate panics on stuff like > > :this is great, but there isn't one user in a thousand that wants this. > > :If you make this kinda stuff default on a version *other than* current > > :(current being by definition, for programmers/developers only) then > > :you're going to hear bloody murder, and you guys will be doing vast > > :damage to FreeBSD's reputation. > > : > > :Users don't want panics, and they don't care why, they just want things > > > > No no no... you are missing the whole point. > > > > *IF* we put these kinds of checks in by default, the result is a > > few more panics in the near term, but *NO* panics in the medium and > > long term. > > That's completely true, but nearly all users simply couldn't care less. > They don't see the long view, they only see what's happening right now. > It's the reason that your attitude is totally correct & healthy for a > developer ... but the only thing that most users will see is the fact > that FreeBSD panics more often. They won't even bother to make of note > of why a panic occurred, all they will ever note is that a panic *did* > occur. it most likely will crash anyway. > > A developer will be helped hugely by your attitude, which is why it > would be *very* healthy for current to do what you want. All the folks > running current would serve as a better set of guinea pigs ... we're all > developers, I don't think any of us would complain ... but never get the > idea that a user is going to be happy to get a panic; no matter how much > time you spend explaining why it's a good thing, they'll only remember > that FreeBSD paniced on them. it most likely will crash/reboot/freeze anyway. > > Alex Zepeda wrote: > > > Hmm. Well think of it this way. What happens when the kernel doesn't > > panic but manages to accidentally wipe out your file system without > > warning? or perhaps just loose some of the more important data on the > > HDD? What kind of reaction do you expect then? > > Seeing as we're talking about failures that, most of the time, the user > never sees the results of, users won't say a single thing ... if they're > box *doesn't* panic, they'll be happy. If it panics more often, they'll > notice that, and they won't bother asking why, they'll just switch to > Linux (and quickly). They aren't signing on to be FreeBSD beta-testers, > you know ... at least, believe me, THEY know that. > > On top of all that, the ordinary user won't even bother to report the > fact that your panic happened (or why), while they're removing FreeBSD. Perhaps if a panic printed a small line on how to report the problem that could be considered an improvement, if that could then also be disabled with 'options NO_CONTACT_INFO_ON_PANIC'. 'Please Transcribe this down and email it to bugs@freebsd.org someone will get back to you as soon as possible, don't bother if you are overclocking' :) or perhaps a url to explain what not to report... It actually sounds like a good idea, this isn't NT, FreeBSD shouldn't 'just go boom' I want to see where the hell it did, so i can look at it and contact someone who can look at it. Someone at work asked me what's so awesome about freebsd, I babbled on for about half an hour then i showed him something he didn't belive at first: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=8732 'dude, yeah i found a bug, they got back to within the hour and fixed it' 'really? how much was the tech support call?' 'oh, i just emailed them.' 'wow.' :) Happy users? Happy core team? yes, it's possible even when you get a panic. thanks, you guys make computers usable. -Alfred > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) > (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
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