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Date:      Mon, 8 Jan 2018 13:02:49 -0500
From:      Baho Utot <baho-utot@columbus.rr.com>
To:        =?UTF-8?Q?Fernando_Apestegu=c3=ada?= <fernando.apesteguia@gmail.com>
Cc:        Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com>, User Questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
Subject:   =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Meltdown_=e2=80=93_Spectre?=
Message-ID:  <1e4ce22b-f647-adbc-8f41-93df0a9f9a3a@columbus.rr.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAGwOe2a_bUDx2rxyTGpeRJdJpQ_jxS3rQWCGY2dR0DCFCBzd=w@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <f9cc484e-be92-7aff-52fe-38655e85dbaa@columbus.rr.com> <CAH78cDqPnOUGoU=6x-BiugnpjmjYcd=CZS3fSNaX5tq-Uvma7g@mail.gmail.com> <bc9ad15b-a718-b901-76fa-bc43ce0c1f1a@columbus.rr.com> <3AECDC7F-8838-4C09-AC7F-117DFBAA326C@sigsegv.be> <20180108085756.GA3001@c720-r314251> <CAGBxaXnSRwtS=mbdsePyKvyZjTpu1tvo2O61SW60yQfdDJH4gA@mail.gmail.com> <48211515-cc6b-522b-ccd2-4d0c1f6a2072@columbus.rr.com> <CAGBxaXm=6NbZ+cz6WGB7YY7NT_+xOhdxb17ORTsQs5e7RvqKaQ@mail.gmail.com> <44279dcb-7b15-865a-ca71-938b3832d0e7@columbus.rr.com> <CAGwOe2aZr5==KFdKb9SHLh9YRy5VCpxPN3d5AY1bLed5o5EV2w@mail.gmail.com> <a5d48efc-7f83-527f-ba51-1edac3d112da@columbus.rr.com> <CAGwOe2a_bUDx2rxyTGpeRJdJpQ_jxS3rQWCGY2dR0DCFCBzd=w@mail.gmail.com>

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On 1/8/2018 12:43 PM, Fernando Apesteguía wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:36 PM, Baho Utot <baho-utot@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 1/8/2018 12:15 PM, Fernando Apesteguía wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Baho Utot <baho-utot@columbus.rr.com
>>> <mailto:baho-utot@columbus.rr.com>> wrote:
>>>   >
>>>   >
>>>   > On 1/8/2018 7:37 AM, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
>>>   >>
>>>   >>
>>>   >>
>>>   >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 7:28 AM, Baho Utot <baho-utot@columbus.rr.com
>>> <mailto:baho-utot@columbus.rr.com>
>>>   >> <mailto:baho-utot@columbus.rr.com <mailto:baho-utot@columbus.rr.com>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>   >>
>>>   >>
>>>   >>
>>>   >> On 1/8/2018 4:15 AM, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
>>>   >>
>>>   >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 3:57 AM, Matthias Apitz <guru@unixarea.de
>>> <mailto:guru@unixarea.de>
>>>   >> <mailto:guru@unixarea.de <mailto:guru@unixarea.de>>> wrote:
>>>   >>
>>>   >> As I side note, and not related to FreeBSD: My Internet
>>>   >> server is run by
>>>   >> some webhosting company (www.1blu.de <http://www.1blu.de>;
>>> <http://www.1blu.de>),
>>>
>>>   >>
>>>   >> they use Ubuntu servers and since
>>>   >> yesterday they have shutdown SSH access to the servers
>>>   >> argumenting that
>>>   >> they want
>>>   >> protect my (all's) servers against attacks of Meltdown and
>>>   >> Spectre.
>>>   >>
>>>   >> Imagine, next time we have to shutdown all IOT gadgets...
>>>   >>
>>>   >>
>>>   >>
>>>   >> Not always possible for things like medical test
>>>   >> equipment/devices. For
>>>   >> example I maintain a specialized EMR for interacting with Dr.
>>>   >> prescribed
>>>   >> remote cardiac monitors. Having those off line is not an
>>>   >> option since
>>>   >> they are used to detect if the patient needs something more
>>>   >> serious like a
>>>   >> pace maker (also almost always a IoT device these days) surgery.
>>>   >>
>>>   >> The actual monitoring is done on Windows and was attacked by some
>>>   >> ransomeware via a bit coin miner that somehow installed it
>>>   >> self. Since
>>>   >> all the users claim that they don't read email/upload/download
>>>   >> executables
>>>   >> or any other of the known attack vectors this leaves something
>>>   >> like
>>>   >> Meltdown or Spectre. We have also detected issues on the
>>>   >> CentOS that has
>>>   >> the non-medical corporate site on it. The only machine left on
>>>   >> touched on
>>>   >> the physical server (running some bare metal virtualization
>>>   >> tool) is the
>>>   >> FreeBSD machine that runs the actual EMR we wrote.
>>>   >>
>>>   >> TL;DR -- It seems Linux and Windows already have issues with
>>>   >> these holes
>>>   >> but I have seen little to no evidence that FreeBSD (when run as
>>>   >> a host).
>>>   >> In general when ever any virtualization issue (like the bleed
>>>   >> through on
>>>   >> Qemu last year) comes up FreeBSD is the one OS that seems to be
>>>   >> immune
>>>   >> (thanks to good design of the OS and bhyve). This is the main
>>>   >> reason why
>>>   >> I chose FreeBSD over Linux as the reference host for PetiteCloud.
>>>   >>
>>>   >>
>>>   >> This is not operating system specific, read the papers on theses
>>>   >> two. it attacks the cpu, usally through a JIT
>>>   >>
>>>   >>
>>>   >> Please learn a little OS design theory before making insane claims.
>>>   >> Specifically it *ONLY* effects OS's that rely on the specific CPU
>>>   >> architecture (vs. a generic one). Namely if you strictly partition the
>>> page
>>>   >> table between userland and kernel space (which xxxBSD has always done
>>> and
>>>   >> Linux has not) and don't use any CPU specific instructions to do so
>>> (except
>>>   >> for protected vs. unprotected mode in the original 386 design FreeBSD
>>> does
>>>   >> not do this while yet again microslut and linux do).
>>>   >>
>>>   >> For more info go read the more technical thread then here in -hackers@
>>> and
>>>   >> -current@.
>>>   >
>>>   >
>>>   >
>>>   > Go read the papers Spectre and Meltdown.
>>>   > This attacks Intel and Arm processors, AMD processors seems to not have
>>> the
>>>   > issue. Intel is issuing new firmware for their processors.
>>>   > Why is does then Apple have the problem as well?
>>>
>>> About AMD, they seem to be affected by at least two variants of these
>>> attacks:
>>>
>>> https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/speculative-execution
>>>
>>
>> Variant One     Bounds Check Bypass     Resolved by software / OS
>>                                          updates to be made available by
>>                                          system vendors and
>>                                          manufacturers. Negligible
>>                                          performance impact expected.
>>
>> Variant Two     Branch Target Injection         Differences in AMD
>>                                                  architecture mean there
>>                                                  is a near zero risk of
>>                                                  exploitation of this
>>                                                  variant. Vulnerability
>>                                                  to Variant 2 has not
>>                                                  been demonstrated on AMD
>>                                                  processors to date.
>>
>> Variant Three   Rogue Data Cache Load   Zero AMD vulnerability due to
>>                                          AMD architecture differences.
>>
>> For Variant 1 OS fix
>>
>> For Variant 2 and 3 ZERO to near ZERO risk
>>
>> So yes my statement stands
> 
> Sorry, I might have misunderstood. The statement was "AMD processors
> seems to not have the issue".
> But they acknowledge the issue. In variant 1 it exists and it is fixed
> by OS (so if it is fixed, it means it affects AMD's processors), in
> variant 2 exists (nearly zero is not zero), and in variant 3, yes, it
> is not affected.
> 
> So it is kind of a 2/3 affected for AMD.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
>>
>>
Meltdown [27] is a related microarchitectural attack
which exploits out-of-order execution in order to leak
the target’s physical memory. Meltdown is distinct from
Spectre Attacks in two main ways. First, unlike Spectre,
Meltdown does not use branch prediction for achieving
speculative execution. Instead, it relies on the observation
that when an instruction causes a trap, following instructions
that were executed out-of-order are aborted.

Second, Meltdown exploits a privilege escalation vulnerability
specific to Intel processors, due to which speculatively
executed instructions can bypass memory protection.
Combining these issues, Meltdown accesses kernel
memory from user space. This access causes a trap, but
before the trap is issued, the code that follows the access
leaks the contents of the accessed memory through
a cache channel.

Unlike Meltdown, the Spectre attack works on non-
Intel processors, including AMD and ARM processors.
Furthermore, the KAISER patch [19], which has been
widely applied as a mitigation to the Meltdown attack,
does not protect against Spectre.



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