From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Aug 16 08:43:57 2010 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590DD1065670; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:43:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from raven.bwct.de (raven.bwct.de [85.159.14.73]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA948FC08; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:43:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail.cicely.de ([10.1.1.37]) by raven.bwct.de (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7G8hsva058792 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:43:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (cicely7.cicely.de [10.1.1.9]) by mail.cicely.de (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o7G8hmDB026188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:43:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: from cicely7.cicely.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o7G8hm4W018190; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:43:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso@cicely7.cicely.de) Received: (from ticso@localhost) by cicely7.cicely.de (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id o7G8hm7u018189; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:43:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ticso) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:43:48 +0200 From: Bernd Walter To: sthaug@nethelp.no Message-ID: <20100816084348.GY99358@cicely7.cicely.de> References: <4C673898.2080609@FreeBSD.org> <20100816.094740.74728369.sthaug@nethelp.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100816.094740.74728369.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD cicely7.cicely.de 7.0-STABLE i386 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED=-1, BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01 autolearn=ham version=3.3.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on spamd.cicely.de Cc: dougb@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interpreted language(s) in the base X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ticso@cicely.de List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:43:57 -0000 On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 09:47:40AM +0200, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > Personally, I think the whole "base" and "ports" thing is an artificial > > divide that is rapidly losing utility. I think we're past due for > > stripping the FreeBSD "base" down to a much more bare minimum, and > > having a lot more of the bells and whistles live in the ports tree. > > Strongly disagree. One of the reasons I've been using FreeBSD for many > years is precisely the fact that the base system is very good, and > contains most of what I need without installing a lot of extra ports/ > packages. I can agree to this argument. While it is easy to install required tools on your system it is a hassle if you are doing support for systems installed by someone else. With FreeBSD you can expect a great set of tools already available. I remember the old days when I was doing embedded systems on tiny CF media and thought I only stripped the tools I really don't need, but in the end I often missed something. But I also never missed something with a complete base. Perl is a fancy tool, but when you really need it you don't have a problem in installing it. It is not that long time ago that a friend with his Linux couldn't even check the negotiated ethernet link without installing an additional tool - easy if you have network, but isn't this a tool to debug network problems? The last thing I've missed was something to script in single-user-mode. In loader we have FICL and in single-user-mode we have /bin/sh, while the shell is reasonable to write scripts it also requires external helpers which sits in non-mounted /usr - e.g.: grep, sed, lock, ... With todays disk and partition sizes however I don't split /usr - I split /usr/local (often don't even this), so this isn't a problem anymore. Having an embeddable lanmguage is another story - no matter if it is TCL, FICL, Lua or whatever. There is a possible benefit for extending our tools, but after reading PHKs history description I'm not that sure about it anymore. -- B.Walter http://www.bwct.de Modbus/TCP Ethernet I/O Baugruppen, ARM basierte FreeBSD Rechner uvm.