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Date:      Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:11:54 +0100
From:      Paul Richards <paul@originative.co.uk>
To:        "'Gary Palmer'" <gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG>, Chuck Robey <chuckr@Glue.umd.edu>
Cc:        freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   RE: Threads across processors 
Message-ID:  <E40CBF0361C7D111914000C0F0303D1086D2@OCTOPUS>

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Hotmail are apparently dropping FreeBSD in favour of Solaris because of
thread support as well :-(


Paul Richards Ph.D.
Originative Solutions Ltd


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Palmer [mailto:gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 8:53 AM
> To: Chuck Robey
> Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: Threads across processors 
> 
> 
> Chuck Robey wrote in message ID
> <Pine.BSF.4.00.9808250047200.361-100000@picnic.mat.net>:
> > Yeah, I agree.  I've written some threaded code for classes, and it
> > worked just fine.  You get some definite speed improvements 
> for threaded
> > code (if it's kernel threads and you have multiple processors) but
> > honestly, I don't think that there's all that much code out 
> there that
> > makes use of it (it's a bear to write).
> 
> From an ISP standpoint:
> 
> Cyclone, Typhoon and Breeze (from Hywind Software) are all 
> threaded. Why? 
> Because it allows them to be a really fast system.
> 
> Intermail (and probably post.office) from software.com are 
> threaded too 
> (Intermail even uses threaded tcl). This allows them to do 
> some really neat 
> tricks with respect to mail processing.
> 
> Various LDAP and Radius implimentations are threaded too.
> 
> Why? Because it allows the system to block on something (e.g. 
> looking up a 
> username in a remote realm) but still process local requests 
> while waiting for 
> an answer. Threading may be work, but it makes a lot of 
> time-critical stuff 
> (where blocking would be bad) easier.
> 
> Theres a bunch of other stuff out there that *should* be 
> threaded, but 
> unfortunately our threads support, while complete, seems to 
> be a bit slow at 
> times, so I don't think there are as many threaded apps as 
> for (say) Solaris, 
> which is basically totally threaded (even tho the rest of 
> solaris sucks)
> 
> > For the most part, for the batch type stuff, I'm still 
> willing to do the
> > multiple process route, client-server stuff.  You do see 
> benefit from that,
> > the complexity is lower, and you don't tear your hair out 
> dealing with
> > locking.
> 
> The message passing overhead between processes is much higher 
> than message 
> passing between threads in the same process. I believe Cyclones 
> time-to-transit for an article is on the order of 
> milliseconds. By the time 
> you dump the data on a pipe, incur the context switch, etc, 
> you've lost the 
> advantage.
> 
> Heck, SMI wrote `doors' for the very reason that IPC *blows* 
> in all cases, and 
> that to pull off the speedups with NSCD that they wanted, 
> they had to get the 
> IPC overhead reduced a lot. I think I even have slides 
> somewhere comparing 
> pipes, SYSV SHM, etc times for message passing in terms of 
> transit time.
> 
> So, I think you are missing a lot of real-time applications too.
> 
> Gary
> --
> Gary Palmer                                          FreeBSD 
> Core Team Member
> FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See 
> http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info
> 
> 
> 
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