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Date:      Mon, 5 Jun 1995 07:54:26 -0500 (CDT)
From:      Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
To:        jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Cc:        hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: 2.0.5-A: Very disheartening?
Message-ID:  <199506051254.HAA06627@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
In-Reply-To: <18743.802350153@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 5, 95 04:02:33 am

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> I respect that you are having this problem and never intended to
> belittle it.  It think you truly read far more into my little
> off-the-cuff comment than was there!

Fine, we can leave it at that..

> Also try to respect that we can only try to fix what we can repeat,

Of course I do.

> and if we are unable to test a certain failure mode on the hardware
> WE have available, then by the only definition we know of (what we
> can see and feel) the OS is "ready for release."

This should be open to debate, probably based in part on some sort of 
reasonable statistics...  (i.e. if you have a 10-1 success ratio on folks
installing it, fine)...

> Now 2.0.5R, as it were, may be more than a bit green still and I'm
> certainly working overtime on it.  We all want to get it out the door
> though, and if there should come a point where we're pretty happy with
> the general install and are getting lots of _success_ stories back,
> then we may very well release it even with your machines still in a

Yes, but I'm not yet hearing that at this point..

> twist!  I'm sorry, but that's life!  If a previous release runs on
> them then that's great!  By all means, continue to run what works
> until such time as we can diagnose and fix the problem in the main
> line (which we'll certainly try to do!), but don't dictate to me that
> the release can't possible go out until Your Specific Problem is
> fixed!  Can you imagine if I listened to every single user who said
> that?  The release would _never_ happen, that's what!

I never said that the release can't possibly go out.  But I did say that
there are demonstrable, repeatable problems on at least a small set of what
I would consider to be average PC systems!  That suggests, at least to me, 
that IF 2.0.5-R were to go out the door, that a statistically significant
number of people might encounter serious problems with it, and THAT would
not be a good thing for FreeBSD's reputation (or for much else).

As for being My Specific Problem, if it really IS just a quirk on the two
completely different systems that I have here, fine!  I can live with THAT -
I'd simply buy different machines.  But if it's NOT, then it will end up
being Your Big Problem, when you have hundreds of user-type FreeBSD users
all wondering why their systems die so often.

That's what all of this is supposed to avoid.

> Honestly, sometimes it gets *me* just a little pissed at what people
> often seem to demand for free!

Look, this is an ALPHA.  You asked people to test it.  I tested it.  I had
problems.  I let you know that.  And to me, a system which has been 100%
unreliable so far (granted that the sample size is only 2 machines so far,
which will be at least 3 by the end of today) is a bomb, and I consider it
likely to be a bomb for unsuspecting newbies somewhere out there.

If you don't like me saying so, I'm sorry, but I just don't have any warm
fuzzies about it.

> Now let's end this conversation (at least at this tone) before we all
> go wasting a lot of time and energy that would be far better applied
> elsewhere.  I have no trouble discussing further ALPHA test goals with
> you, and we can keep the "business tone" of our conversations
> emotionless and precise if that would be less likely to inadvertantly
> cause you distress in the future.  I don't particularly care either
> way right now, it's entirely up to you.  I have only one goal: To get
> 2.0.5R into the best possible shape and release it.  If you'd like to
> help further in this process, then welcome!  All help sincerely
> appreciated!

Well, I was hoping somebody might come forward and recognize the problem I
was having...  :-/

... Joe

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Greco - Systems Administrator			      jgreco@ns.sol.net
Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI			   414/342-4847



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