Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 15:37:11 -0800 From: Bryan Drewery <bdrewery@FreeBSD.org> To: Allan Jude <allanjude@freebsd.org>, Bartek Rutkowski <robak@FreeBSD.org>, src-committers@freebsd.org, svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r314036 - head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall/scripts Message-ID: <4a6a2564-eca7-fa5b-b659-e4818a257245@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <5a98141c-5614-372c-5786-1437cc40011a@freebsd.org> References: <201702210937.v1L9bY6V093836@repo.freebsd.org> <28a4cf5e-2edd-3e30-9ecd-817f886e9ea3@FreeBSD.org> <20170221144002.GA87822@FreeBSD.org> <20170222070733.GA29010@ymer.vnode.se> <6550638c-a629-bf5e-65e0-672cfd125f73@FreeBSD.org> <5a98141c-5614-372c-5786-1437cc40011a@freebsd.org>
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This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --XBFnAfPLAF0oX6oSCOBTbJlEFtRSCigHS Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="w2qjvgcNMJgjvVoei23lemuiXTJhrpXCv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Bryan Drewery <bdrewery@FreeBSD.org> To: Allan Jude <allanjude@freebsd.org>, Bartek Rutkowski <robak@FreeBSD.org>, src-committers@freebsd.org, svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Message-ID: <4a6a2564-eca7-fa5b-b659-e4818a257245@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: svn commit: r314036 - head/usr.sbin/bsdinstall/scripts References: <201702210937.v1L9bY6V093836@repo.freebsd.org> <28a4cf5e-2edd-3e30-9ecd-817f886e9ea3@FreeBSD.org> <20170221144002.GA87822@FreeBSD.org> <20170222070733.GA29010@ymer.vnode.se> <6550638c-a629-bf5e-65e0-672cfd125f73@FreeBSD.org> <5a98141c-5614-372c-5786-1437cc40011a@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <5a98141c-5614-372c-5786-1437cc40011a@freebsd.org> --w2qjvgcNMJgjvVoei23lemuiXTJhrpXCv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/22/2017 3:10 PM, Allan Jude wrote: > On 2017-02-22 15:26, Bryan Drewery wrote: >> On 2/21/2017 11:07 PM, Joel Dahl wrote: >>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 02:40:02PM +0000, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: >>>> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 08:34:29AM -0600, Eric Badger wrote: >>>>> Thanks for working on making it easier to harden FreeBSD. While >>>>> defaulting some of these options to "on" seem pretty harmless (e.g.= >>>>> random_pid), others are likely to cause confusion for new and >>>>> experienced users alike (e.g. proc_debug. I've never used that opti= on >>>>> before, so I gave it a try. It simply causes gdb to hang when attem= pting >>>>> to start a process, with no obvious indication of why). >>>> >>>> I concur. In fact, harmless knobs should probably be turned on by d= efault >>>> in FreeBSD itself (i.e., without any "hardening" help from the insta= ller), >>>> while more intrusive ones should be opt-in, not opt-out. >>> >>> I agree. Can we back this out and discuss it on current@? >>> >> >> I concur. >> In the original review for adding this I predicted today would come, >> https://reviews.freebsd.org/D6826. I still think that it is very >> under-designed and under-thought out. >> >> I personally agree with hardening my system, but I have a number of >> issues with this approach: >> >> 1. It makes *1 installation* method do hardening, while every other >> installation method, and *upgrade* methods not do hardening. So someo= ne >> upgrading from 11.0 to 12.0 won't get hardening, but someone installin= g >> from bsdinstall for 12.0 fresh will get it. There should not be a >> distinction between our installation/upgrade methods like this. >=20 > I agree with this point, and it was brought up by nwhitehorn in the ver= y > initial reviews. >=20 > There may be some value in giving these knobs wider testing before > turning them on, but -current may be a better place to do that. >=20 > Core is soon to announce a more formalized way to discuss and reach > consensus on these types of changes. robak@ can I ask that you back thi= s > out for now, and we use that process to determine what the right set of= > knobs to turn on by default is, and which should be up to the user. >=20 >> >> 2. It ignores that FreeBSD is *generic Operating System* that serves >> many workflows. Developers want all of this off, System Administrator= s >> want all of it on, and Desktop users may want a compromise of half of = it >> to allow various drivers to work (not pointing at any specific sysctl >> right now). >> >> I think what is really needed is a system profile that lets you pick t= he >> workflow you are going to use the system for, and then set some >> reasonable defaults from there. We will never all agree on the same >> defaults because we all are using the systems differently, but we can >> find some compromise if we make Use Cases, such as a System Profile >> would entail. >=20 > I think that is a far better approach, but I am not sure what form it > would take. Maybe we can discuss as a working group at BSDCan or > EuroBSDCon to hammer out a better system that the wide array of sysctls= > we have. >=20 > Not just for these hardening ones, but even just for sizing things like= > the maximum number of file descriptors, default socket buffer sizes, et= c. >=20 > 'Defaults for a web server' > 'Defaults for a development laptop' > 'Defaults for a poudriere build box' > etc. >=20 Yup. If the base system goes this route then the ports tree might follow and give different defaults for each profile. It's hard technically but agreeing on such an approach and design is the first step before figuring out the technical hurdles to solve (speaking of multiple package sets problem). >> >> I too would like to see this backed out. >> >=20 >=20 --=20 Regards, Bryan Drewery --w2qjvgcNMJgjvVoei23lemuiXTJhrpXCv-- --XBFnAfPLAF0oX6oSCOBTbJlEFtRSCigHS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJYriCnAAoJEDXXcbtuRpfPV/UH/0WblTcGpcGNcJb41Eic6IqC NPj3OC/xIaG3gX1YWC2v2+hN9fuwDXpSV8VLuHTYTnjvxe1G/D0YZI2DvRldEmYM fardDkMNASgXj3CfeTR3s2fVzff+5CQOSghOntb3YtdzCRY9DlylCsgJjfGb5+aa EVJb2hfpEB58fKx1K75iOmv2F5mFA+mFTn9Yp1NF+XMegRHDoXJhjaDIJWtuz4th B8e5isAnTxBa3alGBkmqiiZ7Xg4nGHn8C8+JZefmOXs5MBjO8iVC7f480iSfd3rZ b9OAdElVOTgHsj40XrNAK3XsuzoMONTvkqq/srSdUUV+GBMK8VT8Wrs8y1xYCpg= =gYxb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XBFnAfPLAF0oX6oSCOBTbJlEFtRSCigHS--
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