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Date:      Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:46:01 +0200 (CEST)
From:      Malte Lance <malte@webmore.com>
To:        FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc:        Arne Woerner <arne.woerner@tu-clausthal.de>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, Ken McGlothlen <mcglk@serv.net>
Subject:   RE: "Child-endangering sites" (was: Arne Woerner)
Message-ID:  <XFMail.980627164601.malte@webmore.com>
In-Reply-To: <19980627183814.I23035@freebie.lemis.com>

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Oh dear, this seems to be the direct result of the TKÜV and the
effort of Bundesinnenministerium to regulate the german privacy.
Once there was a time in germany where you could not be condemned
for action there was no law for. Now there seems to come the time,
where you could be sued for everything except what is explicit allowed
by law.
Instead of catching the real bad guy's on the internet, the german
politicians and executives stick with "catch and sue what can
be catched and sued for now", means get all the provider that make
the exchange of any data (also offending data) possible. The effect is,
that a subculture of denouncers is growing, now building a base for
a neo-Stasi institution. Mr Woerner seems to be one of them.

A few days ago i read an article in a newspaper or magazine about
a german guy, that found a german server with forbidden porn-material.
This guy called the police and told them about it. The police-men
told him to save the stuff and bring it to the police-station. He did
and was sued for having forbidden porn-material.

Mr Woerner, if you want to protect your children from accessing the
offending sites, just install a firewall and block all traffic
from/to that sites.

Greg, seems you did the right thing when moving to australia. I don't
think the australian people are in an regulation-amok as the german
politicians are.

Malte.

On 27-Jun-98 Greg Lehey wrote:
> (Removed John Fieber from the list; he's not responsible for the web
> site any more.  Wolfram Schneider is).
> 
> On Saturday, 27 June 1998 at  0:37:02 -0700, Ken McGlothlen wrote:
>> Mr Woerner's complaints have to do with the following links on the
>> www.freebsd.org/cgallery.html page:
>>
>>      http://www.freexxxvideo.com/    (All Free XXX Videos)
>>      http://www.netpics.com/         (NetPics)
>>      http://www.persiankitty.com/    (WWW.PersianKitty.COM)
>>
>> He feels that the links should be removed because they are
>> "child-endangering."
>>
>> Personally, I feel that (a) the FreeBSD site isn't really designed for
>> children
>> anyway, (b) the guy is just an overzealous moralizer out to gripe, (c) they
>> are
>> FreeBSD-powered sites, and it's not the job of freebsd.org to make
>> judgments.
> 
> In case you don't know, a German court recently came to a verdict
> which I consider completely ridiculous: ISPs are responsible for *all*
> data passing through their network.  Interestingly, the phone company
> isn't: another judgement has loosened the requirements for phone
> monitoring.
> 
> I consider this the latest in a line of stupid, short-sighted and
> ill-informed judgements by German courts.  I don't condone that kind
> of site, but the expectation that ISPs should monitor all traffic is
> not just ridiculous, it infringes on other basic rights of privacy,
> which until recently was regarded very highly in German society.
> 
> I would guess that:
> 
> 1.  Arne is complaining more out of a sense of obligation than any
>     real interest in the matter.  Most Germans I know aren't too
>     worried about pornography on the net.  Many German "family"
>     magazines frequently have photos of half-naked women.
> 
> 2.  He seems to be relating to www.de.FreeBSD.org, not
>     www.FreeBSD.org; at least he has now complained to the people who
>     run www.de.FreeBSD.org.  I suppose they'll be forced to take it
>     seriously, given the current legal situation.
> 
> 3.  He's complaining about links, not content.  Not even the German
>     courts can expect people to follow all links through to the bitter
>     end to ensure they don't have any multiple indirect pointers to
>     subject material which may at some time be indecent.
> 
>> Perhaps a disclaimer at the top of the page that says
>>
>>      Some of these sites contain material not suitable for children.  Please
>>      consider yourself forewarned.
>>
>> and not removing the links would be enough.  I hate seeing people cave into
>> hypermoralists.
> 
> I think that would be too much already.  I see no reason to change
> things unless somebody decides to remove the links altogether.
> 
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers
> finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
> 
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----------------------------------
E-Mail: Malte Lance <malte@webmore.com>
Date: 27-Jun-98
Time: 16:04:14
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